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Comments
Why would I ever buy one of the new GM mid-size SUV vehicles when the 2002 Ford Explorer is available
Maybe because you enjoy being alive. Last time I looked, Ford was trying to cover up the fact that they put defective tires on their Explorer's (or maybe the whole design of the truck is at fault)and they were flipping over like pancakes. Why would you even consider an Explorer after that? Not saying to buy a GM product, but the Ford sounds a bit risky for me.
-mike
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Both Autotrac and Smarttrak were originally designed and produced by New Venture Gear, but are now being produced by Borg Warner, since DC pulled the majority share of NVG and took it over... GM maintained the Muncie, Indiana plant where Borg Warner is making the transfer cases now. Both companies are producing under the same part numbers, NV 136 for the Olds and NV 246 for Autotrac. Both use electrically engaged wet pack clutch systems with multiple plates. The multiple plates allow both cases to manage torque split, something I didn't think that Autotrac could do. However, the 136 has more plates then the 246, thus giving it a bigger range of torque distribution and in his opinion better suited for on-road applications. the 246, on the other hand, has a lo-range (which produces up to 700 lbs more ft torque) and has a higher hardness rating, which make it more suited for off-road. I was able to find one site to support most of this info...
http://www.4x4now.com/bd0599.htm
So, I guess it looks like tlauro and I were both right and wrong in some regards. I definitely give Autotrac more credit now.
http://www.newventuregear.com/tcases.html
-mike
I had a '93 Exploder with 93K miles prior to purchasing my '02 Envoy SLT. One thing I do remember very clearly from the owners manual and the Firestone owners manual was that those tires were NOT to be driven over 65 mph. Granted, that's hard to do on the open highway, and I admit I took it up to 75 mph a few times. I wonder how many of those accidents could have been avoided if they had stayed below 65 mph.
I've had my trooper up to 115mph a few times and generally travel at speeds of 80-90mph on trips. I've switched over to great tires Pirelli Scorpion ATs in 275-70-16 size.
-mike
GAM2
Interesting comments though. One, I agree that even the Envoy and Bravada have nicer interiors, but then if they wanted to take the top of the line trim Explorer against GM, put it against the Envoy or pit the Bravada and Mercury against one another. The TB however, isn't cheap inside. Heck, at least we have padded doors and don't try to put fake grey wood inside.
I also don't see too many stoplight races in SUV's and I'm an avid track go-er and racer too. Nonetheless, I've run 5.9l Dodge's and V8 Explorer on the road. They get the jump until about 40mph then loose the lead very quickly. Had a V8 Explorer run me until I backed off at about 75mph getting on the freeway and waved as he proceeded to do a flyby from a good ways back I'll give up the stoplight race for much better passing power any day. Afterall, I'm more likely to need power merging than trying to squeeze someone out of a lane that narrows. If you own a V8...don't try & catch me in traffic because you won't. For those that want real V8 oomph...go drive the 265hp V8 Jeep. That's Best in Class power.
I also don't see too many SUV'ers running the slalom on backroads either. Sure, the Triplets have a softer suspension, but I drove both the LTZ TB and the Limited Explorer each for one day before I made my decision and the Explorer was noticable stiffer in everyday traffic. IMO, if you're running any SUV close to the edge in the twisties, you're an idiot. Especially if you are a Ford Owner, as You'll probably be on your side.
Styling...I like the one comment about the TB trying to look "cool"...but the Ford doesn't have to try and look boring. It passes the bland test like a plain rice cake.
I also, have no idea why they commented on the gaps in the dash. IMO, things are very tight. Unless they are commenting on that the TB has more seems as that it does, but again, IMO, it's got style where the Ford inside is pretty plain.
The closterphobic comment...way off. They are equal by 1/2" in all but rear hip room where the Chevy wins by 4". My guess is they felt that way due to the "Cool" center shifter in the TB
The traction thing was also interesting. Several trade magazines tested the Snow capabilities of both and I clearly remember the Explorer getting stuck in them...stuck...no able to move...the TB...no problem. Tires have a lot to play in that according to Motor Trend. They also keep you from rolling over. I've had my TB on ice and snow and the only time the rear kicked out excessively with A4WD on was on ice and my playing with a heavy foot.
The crash test comparison was very funny. Just jump over the institutes site and you'll see that we faired a hell of a lot better than Ford and if you hit something going 5mph...they fail terribly.
Overall, their steering was too heavy, ours too soft, their torque higher, our SUV faster, our suspension too soft, theirs rides rougher. Clear statements that the testers are biased for an SUV that handles like a car vs an SUV.
Nothing wrong with that but if that's what you want, then you should buy a minivan. However, I guess some people want a harsher riding SUV that has heavy steering and that when merging on the highway runs out of steam. Hmmm not me. I like the Caddy like ride, the rain sense wipers, Bose that kicks their butt, styling...which the Explorer doesn't have, steering that allows for easy parking and power that kicks but when needed...in traffic. The I-6 is also way smoother and quieter than the antiquated V8 Ford Uses.
Lastly, it's interesting that the Ford keeps the AC compressor on even in low temps. Also the location of the seat controls and heating elements is a bit odd. But that's Ford.
Nope....I wasn't ripped off. I'll save my $2,200, get more and if I want to pic about style and finish...get the Envoy.
tim
off his soap box
2002 Trailblazer LTZ @ 15.675
2000 Alero "GT" @ 15.591
1999 GTP @ 13.689
Amazing how reviews shaft vehicles all the time, guess GM didn't make their "donation"
-mike
Here's my list:
1) Autoweek
2) Motor Trend
3) Car and Driver
4) Consumer Reports
5) Edmunds
Obviously, I can't expect a website reviewer to be as talented as someone who writes for a highly acclaimed magazine, but at least I see some consistency in the top 3.
Ranking a Dodge Durango above the Trailblazer about makes me toss cookies. And the handsome styling of the Explorer? It looks like station wagon with a lift kit.
Here's what we can gather from this review:
1) Apparently we want "sensible alternatives to minivans" and we need them to handle well because we also take them to the autocross races.
2) A third row of seats scores huge.
3) Ride quality is not a factor.
4) Engine smoothness is not a factor.
5) Fuel economy isn't important either.
6) Feeling fast is more important than actually going fast.
7) Off the line power is more important than highway passing power.
I'm sorry but when I walk downstairs, I have the liberty of seeing a 2001 Inferno Red JGC V-8 Limited (mom's vehicle) in the garage next to my 02 Envoy SLT. Now, when I open the door, I have the liberty of seeing another 99 v-8 JGC Limited (father's vehicle) next to my Silver 02 Grand Am GT and although the Jeeps have their fair share of troubles, I have YET to find another SUV (outside of the $50K plus vehicles) that could outperform the Jeep in overall acceleration, off road capabilities. Also.. Tlauro is partially right in his statement (post 4739) "For those that want real V8 oomph...go drive the 265hp V8 Jeep. That's Best in Class power," correction... For those that want real V8 oomph, go drive the REGULAR 235 hp V-8 Jeep. That's the best in class POWER period!
IF you all don't believe me, I dare you to go out and test drive a REGULAR v-8 model JGC. I swear.. I loooovee my Envoy to death, but with the smorgasbord of vehicles we have around our house, driving the Jeep still reminds me of the first time I drove my aunts 1995 Pontiac Trans AM.
Now If you all want to hear something rather interesting, my dad's 99 is coming off of lease next month and he's been searching high and low for a vehicle to replace his Jeep. We've looked at everything from Avalanche's to Escalades and so far, not so good. I keep trying to convince him to get an Envoy, but he has the liberty of driving mine anytime he wants and everytime he says, "It's a very nice vehicle, you get a LOT for the money.. as a matter of fact.. I think that the vehicles are underpriced for what you are getting and will probably face a hefty price increase next year, but it still cannot touch my Jeep in terms of acceleration and handling." So from the looks of things, I think that we may venture out to Novi, MI tomorrow to pick up this 02 Grand Cherokee Overland with the H.O. V-8 that he's had his eye on for quite some time.
I say what's stated above to say this. Of course we are all aware that a lot of those tests are very biased, for goodness sake, how could the Envoy win 2002 SUV of the year with MT and then get ranked 4th in the edmunds poll against some fairly "weak' contenders (and even dinosaurs; i.e. Pathfinders, Durango). Another good example, pick up the Consumers Report edition of the 2002 vehicle ratings. It's biased beyond belief! Practically everything made out of the United States received "Best Buy!" or "Recommended!" After reading the reviews about the triplets in the CR guide, it's enough to make you want to set your triplet on fire, but I know that the vehicle suites my needs just fine and I am happy and NOT EVERYONE'S TUSHY IS MADE THE SAME!
Oh yeah.. before I forget.. did you all see the stereo review for the 02 TB in the edmunds review? I recall the editors making a note that the BOSE stereo in the TB sounded a little nicer than the BOSE in the Envoy that they tested last year? WHAT GIVES! FIRE THE EDITORS IMMEDIATELY... Hmmm.. As far as I know.. same assembly line, same components right? But then again, who knows.. maybe the BOSE fairy decided to slip a new prototype woofer/tweeter into the batch and it just so mysteriously happened to fall into the hands of the review crew? Oh well.. Just my .02 cents!
Thanks!
IExplore2000@aol.com
-mike
Has anyone put a lock on the spare tire? I live in the Chicago area and wondered if it might not be a good idea.
How did you get a Trooper to go that fast? They seem so boxy. Did you bring any TP? I had an Eclipse GSX up to 125MPH once...That seemed pretty fast in an aerodynamic car. It must have been downright scary in a Trooper. But then again, I'm getting old.
It goes back next thursday for an attempt at tailgate fix and a polish and wax detail job.
The body shop manager said (and this is obvious) it would do no good to paint over the area. The plastic will simply expand and contract and do the same thing. Every Envoy on their lot has the same damage (except possibly the white ones, they were too dirty to tell). He called GM and they told him the fix was to paint it and put a clear 3m tape over it. He said that won't work because the outgasing of the paint (for about 30 days) will cause the clear tape to bubble. I can't believe GM could suggest such a stupid fix! It needs a properly designed gasket. It is going to cost them a fortune to keep messing around with this problem in such a mickey mouse manner. Guess that's the American way.
My guy is going to try to come up with a better fix which I believe is a P-type extrusion gasket material. We'll see how it goes.
I'm suprised more people aren't getting very vocal about this problem. Once the primer is worn through, rust will begin to occur, then they will be replacing the entire tailgate.
Anyone who has one of the triplets, I suggest you take a look at your tailgate (when it is clean) and see for yourself what is going on. The more of us bringing to GM's attention (and costing them money) the sooner they will address it in a proper way. With summer coming, the problem should get more prevelant with the expansion and contraction in warmer weather.
That's the price we pay for buying a first year out product. My build date was 2/02 so the factory still hasn't done anything to prevent the problem. I believe an earlier post said they are now coming from the factory with a gasket. According to GM, in talking with the body shop manager, that is not so. They told him no gasket exists.
Otherwise, it sure has been a nice vehicle so far.
justify the Envoy. I personally like the looks of the Envoy front end better than the Bravada, but if I recall correctly, to option an Envoy out the way my Bravada was built would have been a lot more expensive.
I bought the '02 Bravada from King O'Rourke Cadillac/Olds in Smithtown, on LI, in NY. The service guys there have always treated me first class when I went in with the '99.
Couple of years ago, I took the '99 in to have the driver's heated seat repaired. I picked the car up from sales after the service dept closed and drove home. When I got home I found the power seat controls were not working. I took the car to the train station the next morning, and when I got to work called the service dept to complain.
Service cut a key, drove to the train station, brought the car back to the dealership, fixed the seat problem and returned the car to the train station for me so I could get home at night.
I don't anticipate any problems having my '02 worked on by that dealership down the road. In fact, the service I received from them in the past was an important factor in my buying decision.
I also had great service from my Olds/Cadillac dealer with my '98 Bravada. Torco Olds/Cadillac in the Chicago area. I stopped by there inquiring about the '02 Bravada, and they told me were no longer an Olds dealer. I thought it was strange, since their sign stated otherwise. A few weeks later I drove by and their lot was empty. I guess they bailed altogether.
I hope your dealer sticks it out through the tough times ahead. I really liked the Bravada, but my gut feeling was to go with the Envoy. Even though I could have saved over $1,000 on the Bravada. I figure I'll more than make it up when I trade it in. This is obviously just speculation based on my '98 trade-in, which I covered a few days ago.
By the way, I don't see the paint problem on the tailgate of my Envoy. Exactly where is it? The license frame on mine was replaced by the dealer with a light weight black plastic frame (with annoying logo on it).
I also went to a GMC dealer and looked at an Envoy just off the truck. No gasket but the plastic pocket that we're talking about was not bolted on very tight and no damage had occured (yet). It could be this only happens during assembly when the paint is fresher and possibly softer and the pocket is overtightened. Again, I've heard it takes about 30 days for full paint cure.
Anyway, I intend to demand the factory gasket and will continue to make as much noise as possible to accomplish my goal.
It really shouldn't be this hard.
The wind noise is unbelieveable at freeway speeds. Mt wife and my daughter kept checking the windows and all the doors, they were sure something was opened.
I've taken it to the dealer before, but they said this was "normal" and an effect of the side mirrors and wiper design. I told them I've driven SUV's for the last 9 years and never had this kind of problem with wind noise. I assume GM has wind tunnels to test their designs, so I can't believe they intentionally designed it this way.
I've asked about his before but never really heard any positive or negative feedback. Can anyone confirm similar problems with their Envoy's or do I have a unique problem?
Make sure the rubber weatherstrip seals are firmly glued on all of the doors and that they make proper contact with the door/sill.
Also, check on the inside of the front doors, in the quarter panels. There are rubber gaskets that tend to come loose. I had a slight wind problem from them, but once I took care of it... my Bravada is the quietest vehicle I've ever driven!
An easy way to check if it's your mirrors, fold them in and take it up to highway speeds and see if it disappears. I have never noticed any noise from my mirrors though (with the indicators).
If the stereo isn't on, I do notice some wind noise when I'm up in the 65+ MPH range, but it isn't bad at all. The Envoy is very quite so any noise would be more noticeable.
I also have seen problems with the door seals, I would suggest you look there. I've had my roof racks in two different positions and haven't been able to detect any difference.
How fast are you driving when you notice the noise?
Also tried moving the roof racks all the way back but made no difference. Good idea about folding the mirrors, I'll give that a try, but I would think everyone would complaining if it really was the mirrors. Any speed over 55mph and it sounds like a window is rolled down.
Sounds like no one else is having this problem though so maybe it's specific to my car. Maybe I'll try and have the dealer drive mine then another on the lot to see the difference. thanks everyone