Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

mtrammell · May 2002

Finally got thru the 5523 posts. Geez you guys are verbose. I'm new to this thread but not new to TownHall. Been on TownHall since mid 1999 when I was thinking about buying a new 1500 Xcab Silverado. I now have the 1500 and a 2500 HD CC Silverado and both have the same Fan noise at startup. Lasts for about 15 - 30 seconds then turns off. Maybe this is the way all GM vehicles behave.

Anyway, thanks for all the input. Going in to order a new TB LT this evening. I've been doing business with my salesman for many years and he knows that I am always prepared when I come in to see him.

Special thanx to Tim for posting the TBs. I downloaded ALL the PDFs for later reference.

Will be back tomorrow for the next 100 posts {:-).

BTW, the TB is for the wife.

paulpro · May 2002

GMDrone:
Thanks for your comment on the campaign for the hood hinge washer.

You can forward a file to me at proefrock@heartlandgroup.com. If you can't send a copy of the bulletin, at least the number that I can point the Service people in the right direction.

TSB's are great but in the real world, very few pay attention to them until they have a problem. Then they start searching. I know this from experience, I am a rep for GM Dealer Equipment and work the back end. GM has a great system but the dealers are still independent business men and service excellence sometimes is not the priority.

Paul P

noller2g · May 2002

Yes, wandering mirrors can be fixed. See the dealer.

My mileage is about 17 city-19 or 20 hiway.

2WD Bravada.

WichitaGreg

pauleul · May 2002

My mileage is just over 16 city and just over 20 with mostly highway. I would guess at least 22 on a long highway trip.

4WD Envoy

Mirror fix:

http://www.timlauro.com/cars/trailblazer/pdfs/mirrors-tsb-873047.pdf

Go to the link, print it out and take it to your dealer for the mirror fix.

jepping · May 2002

How many miles do you guys have on your trucks? I have about 1800 miles on my Envoy 4x4 and I hardly get more than 13 city and 16.5 mixed driving. I used to get about the same MPG from My V8 Jeep. Is there hope to get better MPG as the miles add up?

mrau · May 2002

.... Thanks for the sunshade info. It is a tolerable setup. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a special feature to open it all the way.

Mike

BTW. Envoy SLT w/4.10 axle, 4x4, 3800 miles.
18.9 mpg (60% highway, 40% city)

NOT FOR SALE !!!! ...... I like it.

medolark · May 2002

Well, I went in to see the service guys today. I didnt leave the Envoy there because one of my other vehicles is on the fritz so I need it right now and couldnt leave it for them to test cold. I did catch two of the service advisors with a lull in their schedule however, and got to talk to them about the hesitation/fan noise. One of these guys has an Envoy himself. He also has a Silverado truck. His first comment was that yes his fan comes on when cold just as it does on his Silverado  he said he doesnt worry about it because he knows how a hydraulic fan is supposed to operate and it is normal to have them come on when cold. I informed him that the fan was electrically controlled and at first he wouldnt believe me. He went out to the service area awhile and came back agreeing that it had electrical inputs. However, both the service advisors indicated that the fan is not just free-wheeling at any time- there is always some driving and the degree of lockup is dependent on sensed variables (eg. Temperature). I had thought that it was an on or off proposition similar to the clutch on an air conditioning compressor but they said no that is not the case.

With respect to my vehicle they had a tech scan it and he confirmed that all my PCM calibrations are the latest ones. (My Envoy is past the vin cutoff date in the TSB, but I wanted to make sure the programming was in fact current.) Incidentally , I believe the long list of calibrations listed in Envoyenvy1s post (#4873) is a package deal  they all go together so if you get updated per the TSB they are all done at once.

So, I dont have any good news and neither my service advisors nor I know what to try at this point . One of the advisors suggested informing GM of my concerns via the procedure in the back of the manual. He suggested that if enough people do this GM will address the issue.

I hope Iexplore2000 or Envoyenvy1 have more success.

vindog45 · May 2002

Jwinky: something is definitly wrong with the way that strip is just hanging there.

beach15 · May 2002

Here's a dealer page for a new black Envoy XL SLE. Their sale price with rebate is $700 under invoice, so effectively $300 over invoice is their actual selling price. Looks even better in black as some of the odd bus-like shape is hidden, with the paint & rear windows the same color. Pretty good deal too. Take a look:

http://www.woodbridgepontiac.com/GMC/22636.html

baltychen · May 2002

Thanks. Will double check.

rj123456 · May 2002

How come this dealer doesn't show up when you search gmbuypower under dealer list for Woodbridge VA?

---

Re: Here's a dealer page for a new black Envoy XL SLE. Their sale price with rebate is $700 under invoice, so effectively $300 over invoice is their actual selling price. Looks even better in black as some of the odd bus-like shape is hidden, with the paint & rear windows the same color. Pretty good deal too. Take a look:

http://www.woodbridgepontiac.com/GMC/22636.html

johntr · May 2002

I have 21k miles on my 1 year old (this month) TB LT. I've been getting 17-18mpg daily commute which is 1/2 rural/highway. Speeds during the commute vary from 35-70mph. I made a trip from PA to NC a couple of months ago & got 20-22mpg. Speeds were around 30mph (Washington DC Beltway - ARRGHH!) to 80mph (WV rules! :-) ). Overall, I'm pleased with my MPG and performance. I've had my share of problems as everyone else in this community, but I'm happy with my dealer and his responsivness to my issues. BTW, I'm waiting for my tailgate gasket too!

John

rjsnyder2k · May 2002

I have a TB LTZ with 3.73's and I felt the gas mileage problem was larger than the wandering mirrors, the gasket or the fan. Through the entire 6000K miles I only got 12.5mpg! 13.2 DIC calculated. When I brought the vehicle to my dealership (with my TSB list), I also listed this as a potential problem.

They did the trans case recalib, they fan noise recalib, and a mirror recalib (because they didn't have the actuators).

Much to my amazement, when it was finished I reset the DIC and on the first tank I received 16.7!!!

Figuring this was an anomaly (but had my fingers crossed) I re fueled and rest the DIC again, I am 3/4 through this tank and I am receiving 16.4!!!

4MPG by re programming the PCM's? In addition the DIC is only off .1 now... "rounding error" I can't explain it, but I am certainly not complaining. After 8 months I am finally getting mileage I expected.

gator36 · May 2002

Just an FYI....
medolark was correct when he stated that
the calibration update of his computer is a
all or noting affair. I have had 2 GM vehicles
with their calibrations updated. The technician
plugs in a Tech 2 vehicle scanner and goes through
a couple of menus where he/she will see the current
calibrations. He will then take the scanner to a
PC and download the latest calibrations for your VIN
number. when he returns with the Tech 2, he plugs it
back into the vehicle and through a menu re-programs
the PCM.

Amazing what can be done with a simple PC.

tetonman · May 2002

From Yahoo news:

GM Recalls Midsize SUVs
Tue May 7,11:17 AM ET

DETROIT (Reuters) - A federal agency said on Tuesday that General Motors Corp. will recall 60,000 of its popular mid-size sport utility vehicles to fix a fuel filter problem, the fifth recall involving the models in the past year.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (news - web sites) said the new recall covered Chevrolet TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy and Oldsmobile Bravada SUVs built between September and November 2001. A fitting on the fuel filter can come loose, cutting off fuel to the engine and possibly causing a fuel leak.

The other recalls included one for a weak suspension piece in all three models, two for problems with four-wheel-drive systems in the Chevy and GMC models, and one on the Envoy for a technical violation of NHTSA rules.

rjsnyder2k · May 2002

...and maybe sucking air causing hesitation problems????

tjcishere1 · May 2002

I HAVE BEEN HERE BEFORE ORDERED A ENVOY SLT XL WITH THE 1SK PKT. AND RUNNING BOARDS GOT IT FOR $37,000. NOT A BAD PRICE BUT DEALER IS A BLOCK AWAY. OK NOW HERE IS THE PROBLEM I DID POST BACK A WHILE AGO DEALER TOLD ME THE MAJOR GUARD PROTECTION WAS $4770 FOR 0 DED. AND 7YRS 100,000 MILES I WAS WONDERING WHAT EVERY ONE ELSE IS GETTING OUT THERE. JUST LET ME KNOW THE COST THAT SOME OF U PAID ALSO BE SURE TO INCLUDE IF U HAVE A DEDUCIBLE THANKS FOR YOU HELP
TOMMY

cmack4 · May 2002

Thanks for the info! Although it doesn't effect my vehicle (Aug 2001 Build), it still helps explain some problems... like the highway stalling incidents!

pauleul · May 2002

NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 02V121000
Component: FUEL:FUEL FILTER LINE
Manufacturer: GENERAL MOTORS CORP.

Year: 2002 Make: GMC Model: ENVOY Recall Date: 04/30/2002

Type of Report: Vehicle
Potential Number of Units Affected: 60044
Manufactured: 09/2001 - 11/2001
Defect Summary:
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES. A FUEL FILTER FITTING CAN BECOME DISCONNECTED. IF THIS WERE TO OCCUR WHILE ATTEMPTING TO START THE ENGINE, A NO-START CONDITION WOULD RESULT AND FUEL WOULD BE PUMPED OUT THE FUEL FILTER ONTO THE GROUND.
Consequence Summary:
IF THE FITTING BECOMES DISCONNECTED WHILE THE VEHICLE IS IN MOTION, THE ENGINE WOULD STOP DUE TO INADEQUATE FUEL SUPPLY AND CAUSE A LOSS OF POWER STEERING ASSIST. IF AN IGNITION SOURCE WERE PRESENT, FUEL LEAKAGE FROM A DISCONNECTED FUEL FILTER FITTING COULD RESULT IN A FIRE.
Corrective Summary:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE FUEL FILTER QUICK CONNECT RETAINERS. OWNER NOTIFICATION IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN DURING MAY 2002. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT CHEVROLET AT 1-800-222-1020. GMC AT 1-800-462-8782, OR OLDSMOBILE AT 1-800-442-6537.

dshepherd3 · May 2002

Found this issue on my TB, try turning the key on for 10 sec. before cranking/start cycle, the fan does not engage. GmDrone may want to see this.

mtrammell · May 2002

The highest rated vehicle warranty program is WarrantyGold. Their website is:

http://www.warrantygold.com

I eneterd the info for a 2002 TB (1K miles on the vehicle, under factory warranty, 4x4, 6cyl) and the list of available mileage/time period warrantty options was presented. The most expensive was a bit over $1500 for 5 years/150K miles. The 7 year/100K mile service was less $$. The Platinum service includes normal wear & tear and mechanical breakdown as well as the bumper-to-bumper coverage. Check it out.

2002slt · May 2002

I got 5 years/60,000 miles (GM Major Guard) for $620 on my Envoy (Zero detuctable).

No problems (except paint scraping issue), so far, with 2,500 miles. Knock on Plood.

paisan · May 2002

I'd stay away from them. I know several people who have been screwed by them. For example a shop say a repair will cost $X,XXX, the warranty company says it will pay $X,XXX - $XXX and you have to wait for them to fight it out before they even start to repair it. Whereas a factory one there is no arguements between the shop and the warranty company.

-mike

iexplore2000 · May 2002

My service advisor just advised me that they contacted the technical assistance center and was informed that there is a technical bulletin published about the cold acceleration issue. The bulletin states that this is a NORMAL condition due to the vehicles emissions and something about the vehicle running "lean?" "All of them are supposed to exhuberate this kind of behavior" according to what my advisor read to me over the telephone. Additionally, I informed him of this service recall and he mentioned that he would investigate to see if he could get the recall applied to my vehicle.

At this point, I think that I am a little tired of fighting this. Maybe GMDrone might be able to discover this bulletin and relay the information over to the forum? I have a very hard time believing that this is a "normal" issue here. IF so, then I must say that I am getting ready to reach very DEEP into my pockets and get another vehicle. I refuse to keep it... :-( Does anyone have "free" access to the NHTSA website? If so, I would be most interested to see if there are any lodged customer complaints concerning the hesitation issue??

IExplore2000@aol.com

paisan · May 2002

Isn't that bad for the engine? Good for the enviro, but bad for the pistons etc?

-mike

biggie4852 · May 2002

Keep the $4770 buck if you got it and places it in a saving account. If a major breakdown occurs[?} that is not under GM 36,000/3 year then fix it out of the saving account. IF you are not unlucky and with normal wear and tear on your truck, which with proper upkeep should not be out of the question. You are a head of the game by $4770 plus interest. I was offer the 100,000 5 year for 1350 with $250 deduction

tblazed · May 2002

Anyone know the VIN breakpoints for the effected triplets involved in this fuel line coming off and spewing gasoline all over the place recall? ( Good question for gmdrone to find out the answer to) I would sure like to know since mine was mfg in mid-November. I might not want to park it in the garage if there is a possible fire hazard when starting it!

mkaye · May 2002

So, the GM triplets are about the only vehicles, including ULEV's, that exhibit a delayed acceleration in response to emission rules, and it's considered 'normal'? Virtually every other manufacturer and even engineers in GM can create vehicles that have roughly seamless acceleration, regardless of 'lean' conditions, except for the engines in the GM triplets? Oh, that would satisfy my concerns.

Yaaa, right. Go GM!

Sounds more like 'someone' can't get their software updates right and are passing the buck.

Anyone consider something called 'class-action'? You know, 'power to the people!' At least, start posting positive dealer results. This is getting depressing. My brother's apparently been lucky so far

Mike Kaye

medolark · May 2002

This sounds to me like nothing more than the possibility that the little clips that tie the two pieces of fuel line together (in case the quick disconnect fitting fails) are missing. If so, they have nothing to do with any of the performance issues so far posted on this board. A failure of the quick disconnect fitting in the absence of the clips would result in a severed fuel line which of course would not heal itself.

dshepherd3 · May 2002

I put my TB on a lift at my friend's station, the out line from the filter can be removed with out depressing the retainers, it appears the land on the filter pipe is to small a diameter and the clips don't hold tightly. I temporaily put a hose clamp over the entire fitting and snugged it up just enough to have some clamping force but not crush the end of the fuel line. No info has reached my dealer yet!

johntr · May 2002

I've seen many references about the build date. Where can I find the build date information on my Trailblazer?

John

pepper50 · May 2002

John, open your driver door, and your build date is on a white sticker on the side surface of the door. There is also info on recommended tire pressure. My tires came with 40 psi from the factory, so I had to let out some air.

On another note, today I installed a GM bugdeflector for my Envoy hood. It looks good and was easy to install. A couple of the flanges were not completely flat when it was molded, but it still attached OK. There is plenty of room behind it to wash and wax the hood lip, and no stand-off "bumpers" are required to be placed on the hood. The deflector attached with 4 screws and two pieces of 3M tape. No drilling is required; it uses the existing square holes in the underhood with some pop-in retainer nuts. I ordered it from gmpartsdirect.com, together with the pewter vinyl floormats and the recommended GM cleaning cassette for the cassette player. Even with shipping, the cost for all these items was less than dealer. The heavy-duty vinyl mats fit well, look good, have the GMC logo, and have a lot of ridges to trap water, dirt, mud, snow, etc. I intend to use them year round.

scottc454 · May 2002

Running lean is only bad for the pistons if you're running VERY lean. When there is too big of an air to fuel ratio, it burns fast and hot.

I don't understand why the engine would be running lean when it's cold.
It's gasoline vapor that burns and when it's cold not enough of the gas vaporizes so you have to make the mixture rich to compensate. My guess is that person meant "relatively lean" and the intent is to minimize the amount of unburnt fuel coming out the exhaust by decreasing the amount of enrichening.

I had the fan problem and they replaced my whole fan clutch. It is much better now, but I swear it came on once or twice in the morning after the fix. However, it hasn't come on for a while and there were a couple 40 degree mornings. I can still detect some morning sluggishness in acceleration even with the fan off, but it's nothing I'd worry about.

I must say, all this technology is great compared the days of carburetors and chokes, but when something doesn't work right, we have no clue what's going on. It could be a sensor that's bad somewhere, or the thing's programmed wrong, or it's designed to work that way.

iexplore2000 · May 2002

Well.. I am nooo auto techie by no means, but I do know when I feel that something ain't right! Ha ha.. I don't know what to think about the information that I was given from my service advisor, but I do know that they still have my vehicle in their possession and I have to be out of town for the next several days, so the earliest I could pick it up is Friday or Saturday. I think that I am going to purposely leave it with them until next Monday, then I will go over to the dealership and request that my service tech go on a test drive with me in a NEW Envoy. That will be the catch all! Especially if the new one takes off like lightening when it's cold! If I am able to successfully prove this, then I am going to keep pushing them to investigate things a little further.. maybe replace the main computer module, etc? Any ideas anyone?

BTW.. I saw that BMW SUV today and it's looking pretty good to me! Ha, ha.. Although it costs an arm and a leg, I may just have to make that sacrifice if I cannot get this resolved. I hear lots of positive things about the BMW SUV.. For that price, it's probably 95% trouble free I would hope..

IExplore2000@aol.com

paulpro · May 2002

I am trying to locate custom wheels for my Envoy. The stock SLE wheels leave a lot to be desired, visually. Come to find out, custom wheels are not readily available. Seems new bolt pattern and size caught most aftermarket producers off guard.

I've tried Tirerack.com and they only show one set, 18" dia. I don't want to buy new tires also. Does anyone know of wheels that will fit the Envoys? American Racing are only showing two and I'm not fond of either of those.

Any ideas, links or pictures

Thanks

Paul P

iexplore2000 · May 2002

Just browsing through BMW's website, I quickly discovered that the BMW 4.4i completely loaded would run me approximately $61,025! YIKES....

Yeeeeeaaahhh GM.. I'll just keep my hesitating SUV! Ha, ha.. Hey.. just as long as it's running, that's all that counts right?

paulpro · May 2002

I am trying to locate custom wheels for my Envoy. The stock SLE wheels leave a lot to be desired, visually. Come to find out, custom wheels are not readily available. Seems new bolt pattern and size caught most aftermarket producers off guard.

I've tried Tirerack.com and they only show one set, 18" dia. I don't want to buy new tires also. Does anyone know of wheels that will fit the Envoys? American Racing are only showing two and I'm not fond of either of those.

Any ideas, links or pictures

Thanks

Paul P

storm34 · May 2002

pepper50, they don't list the Envoy as a vehicle choice and you can only choose model years of 2000 or earlier. Can you clue me in?

thx

cmack4 · May 2002

An engine that is overly lean will typically over-rev at idle and bog at mid throttle, so it's possible that leaning could be the problem. The only way you could really tell is if the cooling fan was cycling regularly and/or if you had a temp gun to get an accurate reading of the block. Typically, you would also get better gas mileage by running lean, but not if the fuel not going to the engine is spilling on the highway or driveway!

ficuss · May 2002

iexplore2000, before you buy a BMW, ask if anyone you know knows the difference between a BMW and a porcupine. If you cannot get an answer in a few days, let me know, I'll tell you what I've heard.

Frank

vtripicchio · May 2002

Can someone clarify the link between wind noise and these "baffles".. I purchased an Envoy in Dec. 01 and do experience "excessive wind noise"...An earlier post mentioned something about baffles near the wheel-wells...how do i check to see if my vehicle has these?....If not, do they help?

missouri2 · May 2002

you are right, i did what you did and the fan noise was gone, i believe it is like turning off your coumpter and turning it back on it has to learn what is there. give it a little time.gas milage 18 in town 22 on the road at 70 mph.

cmack4 · May 2002

I believe I was the one who first mentioned the baffles, and yes re-affixing them (epoxied) did have a significant impact on sound for me. After the roof rack fixes (gap between front rail and crossbar positioning), I still had a howling sound... Now, my bravada is literally one of the quietest vehicles I've ever ridden in!

pepper50 · May 2002

Storm:

Gmpartsdirect.com hasn't updated their database by year, but they do have the new part numbers entered. So if you know the part numbers, the items do show up on their website, invoice, etc. To get the part numbers you can look at the GM Envoy accessories website at:

GMC Envoy Accessories Then enter the part numbers on the gmpartsdirect website.

Good luck!

iexplore2000 · May 2002

Well.. I am not quite sure that I understand the riddle (ha, ha), but after I saw the PRICE TAG of the X5.. I will definitely stay AWAY from it.. I can't afford to get STUCK that much.. maybe just a little, but for that price, I consider that vehicle VERY unapproachable..

At this rate, I could get used to just having the one vehicle (2002 Pontiac Grand AM GT1) and getting rid of my Envoy! I think for the most part, the only thing major that I haul is groceries! Ha, ha..

IExplore2000@aol.com

stever · May 2002

Please take the "off-color" jokes to email - we have members with kids reading over their shoulders here. Thanks.

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

paisan · May 2002

Get yourself a 2002 Trooper it will last you 200K+ w/o repairs. At least give it a look if you want a tough SUV.

25.5K for a loaded w/o leather one.

-mike

vindog45 · May 2002

Vtripicchio...to locate them....open drivers or passenger front door all the way....reach in between hinges (way in) and you can feel large vertical rubber "baffles" just hanging there, (well at least mine are)...looks as tho glue dried up around edges and became loose....Cmack..are these the same ones you talking about?

allenr · May 2002

I just got back from a 500 + mile trip with my Bravada. Do to the fact one person in our convoy wanted to drive the speed limit (65mph), we did the whole trip that way. My Bravada got 21.3 mpg (corrected) for the trip. The DIC showed 22.0 mpg, a little optimistic

The a/c was off for the whole trip and I have the 3.73 rear end. That's the best I've done so far, although it was hard to go 65 on the L.A. freeways. I usually get around 15 or 16 around town. So I looks like you can do if you drive easy.

Allen

Btw I have 16,300 miles on my truck

iexplore2000 · May 2002

Well heck.. I guess I completely missed that one? I guess I cannot ask for someone to state the riddle hence this may cause more trouble.. but all in all.. I DIDN'T GET IT.. Ha, ha..

IExplore2000@aol.com

Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

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