Subaru Impreza WRX

kostamojen2 · October 2001

The RS has a 13mm rear sway bar as opposed to the WRX's 20mm bar and no rear Limited Slip differential. So ya, its pretty much the same as the WRX. Just get a used 20mm bar from someone (or from www.subaruparts.com) and pop that sucker on and your good to go! Theres also alot of aftermarket suspension stuff thats surprizingly easy to do yourself out there, and worth the money.

hunter001 · October 2001

"...and no rear Limited Slip differential"

Doesn't the lack of a Limited Slip differential (in the Impreza RS) also mean, that in cases when both the right wheels of the car, OR both the left wheels of the RS, does not have traction (eg. when one side of the car is on ice), the car, INSPITE OF HAVING AWD, is NOT GOING ANYWHERE ? Tires Spinning with the car not going forward ??!!! Unlike, the WRX, where due to the presence of the Limited Slip differential, the car would power out of such situations, due to the side to side power transfer in the above mentioned scenarios ?

Later...AH

twrx · October 2001

hunter001, that is what I understand is the advantage of the lsd. Too bad that the rs does not have it since the last 2 model years of the previous body style had it. Having said that, the 98 rs that my wife has does not have any problems in snow and neither did my 98 Forester. i replaced the Forester with a wrx wagon.
TWRX

hunter001 · October 2001

"the 98 rs that my wife has does not have any problems in snow and neither did my 98 Forester. i replaced the Forester with a wrx wagon."

In fact, the situation mentioned is a very rare one, and one seldom faces it in real-world driving, even though we cannot totally rule it out. I think the RS should be good enough for almost anything....but the WRX goes even beyond that, in terms of acceleration, handling and foul weather capabilities. Also, the RS was definitely not an option for me, since I needed a wagon. The TS wagon unfortunately was ruled out, since it was equipped with rear wheel drum brakes, in addition to not having the rear Limited Slip Differential.

IF the WRX wagon came with the H6, it would have been PERRRRFECT for me but rarely is this world "perfect" ;-| As it stands, I am thoroughly happy with what the WRX offers.

Later...AH

beygo · October 2001

"The MP3 (which spanked all competitiors in a recent (albeit limited) handling comparison, including the WRX, in autoweek, I think)..."

I think I read the same article. It wasn't the WRX, it was the RS. The MP3 placed 1st, and the RS placed second, ahead of the Jetta 1.8T, another car (can't remember), and the Neon.

BG

kostamojen2 · October 2001

Ya, it makes a difference, only at above 9/10ths driving.

For example: I was riding with my cousin in his 02 RS, following a WRX and a 00 RS (that has LSD) on some twisties. We were REALLY pushing it! But the 02 RS was making more noise for some reason (both of them said we were making the noise, and we could tell too) and it took me awhile to realize it, but it was the open diff in the back as oposed to the rear LSD.

So ya, it makes a difference. Find a wrecked WRX and swap out the rear axle if it means that much of a difference :P (Yes, I am also displeased they had it in the 00/01 RS and droped it in the 02 RS, but the 02 RS costs $500 less too)

hunter001 · October 2001

"Ya, it makes a difference, only at above 9/10ths driving."

I don't think any of us drive anywhere close to 9/10ths.....someone like Mario Andretti might push it to those levels... I would think extremely adventurous and skilled drivers among us might go upto about 7/10ths or so.

On a different vein, the rear LSD is definitely working and makes a difference at all speeds, just that it does it seamlessly. The point I made is NOT about extreme driving. The point is that without a rear LSD, the car INSPITE OF BEING EQUIPPED WITH AWD, will not move an inch if EITHER SIDE of the car, whether THE RIGHT HAND SIDE or THE LEFT HAND SIDE, is on a surface where traction is un-available.

There is no SIDE TO SIDE POWER TRANSFER in a vehicle that does not have the LSD. The RS would ONLY transfer power FRONT TO BACK (OR BACK TO FRONT), which should suffice in pretty much all conditions.

For example, if BOTH THE WHEELS ON THE FRONT lose traction OR IF BOTH THE REAR WHEELS lose traction, the RS would be fine. It would power out of those situations.

But if BOTH THE WHEELS ON THE LEFT or BOTH THE WHEELS ON THE RIGHT lose traction, the RS is like a helpless baby, while the WRX would smoothly power out of those situations.

Later...AH

pfiffer · October 2001

With winter coming there will be plenty of situations where the LSD comes into play when traction loss is common event. The WRX's capability of side to side, rear to front torque transfers will undoubtedly make it a fabulous winter car.

Ed

celcam · October 2001

I want to thank everyone for being so helpful. I am alittle nervous about spending the extra money on the subaru and wanted to make sure that the RS with AWD but no LSD (and other nice missing features) was still worth the money.

pfiffer · October 2001

How spirited is your driving? Do you like to run a car up to 100 mph quickly every now and then? Do you enjoy taking on ramps at double to posted speed? Would you like to chase down the odd BMW 3 series every now and then? Do you drive out to twisty roads for the sake of driving through them just to push yourself and a car to the limit? If you answered yes to 2 or more of these questions then I would seriously consider the WRX - it truly is a great performance machine. Having said that, the RS is a very competant performer for those who want AWD with handling/performance as good as or better than many other non-luxury 4-door sedans on the road.

Apart from that - drive both, think/read for 1 week, drive them again - think/read another week. By then your answer should be cooked to perfection. For me, I drove the WRX once and was sold and have never regretted it since I'm afflicted with speed addiction even after 20 years of driving.

Ed

celcam · October 2001

I am not really too crazy a driver, though I would love to chase down a beemer! However, it is a toss up between the Nissan Sentra SE-R or the Impreza RS. I am on a relatively tight budget, but am hoping the AWD is worth the extra 2k (US). Thanks for the advice...I tend to do a lot of reading and test driving (to a fault some would say).

doormatt · October 2001

I'm in your boat too. I cannot afford a WRX (for a few more years at least) but definitely want a sporty ride. I've been disappointed with what I've read about the SE-R (mostly read stuff about the Spec-V). Have you had a chance to test drive it yet? If you have let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

rsholland · October 2001

is worth the difference. Go for the RS, not the Sentra. You won't regret it.

Bob

pfiffer · October 2001

If intense cornering athletics are not your cup of tea - you may not really notice the FWD/AWD difference. Having said that, if you live in a climate where snow or a great deal of rain is an issue, you may find that the AWD becomes a very important day-to-day benefit and worth the extra dollars.

Good luck.

Ed

celcam · October 2001

I would love to get the WRX, trust me on that! I only drove the 2001 Sentra SE and for the price it handled beautifully and was better than anything else I had tested (including the Impreza Wagon, which had a HUGE blind spot and felt a tad dumpy). And I just read a review of a test drive for the SE-R (not the spec-v) and they liked it. The site is www.canadiandriver.com, and they have some really great road tests.
I don't know if you know this, but the Sentra's just went on wholesale on the 15th, and Nissan told me they won't be at dealers for another month or so.

celcam · October 2001

I am in a snowy climate, which is why I am considering the Impreza. I admit that I haven't tested the sedan yet, only the wagon and was a bit disappointed. I have heard that the sedan is better for vision and ride though...I am planning on test driving this week to see if that is true.

doormatt · October 2001

I'd love the WRX too! One of these days, I'll finally graduate and be bringing in some more cash. I recently moved to an area where we get quite a bit of snow, so the RS would be the logical choice, but anything I'm looking at would be a better choice than my civic, at least from a performance perspective. Without driving an 02 RS or on SE-R, I think I'm leaning to the RS, but the SE-R would definitely be more friendly on my pocketbook. Thanks for the info on the arrival of the new Sentras, I had heard earlier but I think the dealer may have just been trying to unload an SE on me so he could get them off the lot.

rsholland · October 2001

AWD is a 365 day a year feature. Besides snow, it's also much better in the rain than FWD. It just may keep you on the road, whereas FWD may not in certain conditions. I think it's a real safety feature.

Bob

celcam · October 2001

I don't doubt for a second that the AWD would be a great safety feature! I guess it all boils down to the money. It will be a bit of a stretch for my wallet to get the RS, and after hearing people say it wasn't that great (especially when compared to WRX) I started doubting the real value of the AWD.

doormatt--I am trying to get a new job that will make my commute a trip through some mountains. From employees making that same commute, I have heard it can get really hairy in the winter months. Hence my leaning towards the RS

twrx · October 2001

power or AWD. RS or WRX, you are simply safer in an Impreza. I am waiting to see what the insurance industry offset test comes out for the new gen Impreza. Remember that the new gen legacy was the best score for a compact. They raved how every issue they had with the previous gen was addressed. If you have seen the ad booklet for the new Impreza you will see a picture of an Impreza crashed into an offset barrier. HMMMM....
TWRX

paisan · October 2001

Don't forget the rear LSD isn't a locker. You can still get stuck, and the rear wheels will alternate (not both spin at the same time) even with an LSD.

-mike

rex_ruthor · October 2001

For those of you with 4x4 in your background, you can fool the LSD with brake application. Done it myself several times in the mud.

capnbob66 · October 2001

If you are cash strapped, look for a private ex-lease 2000/1 RS. I just handed one back for a new WRX and it had 22K on the clock in 2 years, FSH and was not tricked out since it was a lease. The residual was about $13K and I would have kept it if the WRX was not available. It has the LSD, available in a Coupe (loved the wing) and drove beautifully. There must be more of these about. And if you are going to trick it out - definitely better to get the used one. Just an idea...

kostamojen2 · October 2001

Ya, if your slipping in the snow, let go of the gas, thats basically what LSD is doing anyway :P
It doesnt make that big of a difference really.

Why Dont I like the SE-R already? Cause its FWD. Sure, FWD is fine for most folks, but not for me after I had some annoying experiences with Torque steer and massive Understeer... I can replicate the conditions for anyone if they want to witness it too.

BTW, Ive been hearing that people are getting the WRX/Impreza for $100-200 over Invoice!!! That means you can get a WRX for like $22k, or a RS for under 18 easy. GO DO SOME HAGGLING!

paisan · October 2001

Yep, the parking brake trick works well, I've done it a few times on the troopa.

-mike

bluesubie · October 2001

Like paisan mentioned, it is still possible to get stuck with LSD. Last winter there was some discussion on the i-club about this.
While an LSD is great to have, it doesn't guarantee that you'll never get stuck. I
I've driven in a fair amount of snow and ice and have never been in a situation where I'd wished I had one.

Although while recently talking to an owner of a dealership about the OB VDC, he said he had never been stuck with ANY Subaru. He's been driving them for 16 years in the hills of western NJ.

Kosta - Actually if you're slipping in the snow, hit the accelerator. This directs power to the appropriate wheels quicker.

Dennis

celcam · October 2001

If I could get the WRX for 22k, I would be sorely tempted to buy it! See, my problem is that I keep thinking, "well, I could spend the extra money for the WRX and cut back on more frivilous things." But if the RS drives as well as everyone says it does (test driving it this week) then I will probably go for that. I really want the added safety of AWD.

Someone mentioned earlier on the board about installing a thicker rear sway bar to help with the handling of the RS. It comes with a 13mm standard and the post said to get a 17-20mm. Does everyone agree with that? Will it really help?

rsholland · October 2001

it will help, but the stock RS is a very good handler as is. Changing the sway bar will make it an excellent handler a super-excellent handler.

Since you're worried about costs, I'm surprised you would even consider the added expense of upgrading...

Bob

ateixeira · October 2001

I visited a Nissan dealer but the Spec V was not in stock yet. That was the car picked 4th out of 5 in that comparo you guys mentioned.

The engine and LSD front diffy sound good, but I don't like the non-independent rear suspension (bouncy on rough roads, at least the similar setup in the Maxima is). C&D complained loudly about the shifter, and I sampled an Altima 3.5SE that also had poor shift quality, so I believe it.

The Altima was great except for wicked torque steer and that shifter. Very fast, very flexible engine, though. Loved the styling. Just fix the shifter, please, and toss in the helical LSD from the Sentra in that unmanaged front axle. Better yet, offer AWD.

The same day, I test drove a Protege5. Very nice car, balanced handling, no torque steer. Of course, there isn't much torque to begin with. You could add a bunch of power, but that might upset the balance of the FWD powertrain. I say MP3 the bad boy and come up with 10 more hp. Any more than that and it needs AWD or at least a front LSD.

-juice

cjremshwa · October 2001

I just bought a WRX on Friday and I specifically asked the dealer about a break-in period. The guy said there was NO break-in period. So I've been driving for the past 200 miles not specifically like a bat out of hell, but not keeping to the 4k RPM limit and keeping RPM constant (cruise control on the highway). How bad is this? Should I rip the dealer a new one?

ateixeira · October 2001

He's clueless.

Keep it under 4krpm for the first 1000 miles, except for emergencies. Try to be easy on the brakes and tranny, too. In other words, drive smoothly. Also, vary your speeds if you can.

-juice

paisan · October 2001

my personal theory is to drive it like you are gonna drive it on a normal basis from new. Except for cruise control. Others believe to go easy on it for the first 1-3K.

I drive mine like I stole em from day one.

-mike

hunter001 · October 2001

I think you should go by what the Subaru Impreza owner's manual says.

That manual has not been put together by opinionated morons at a dealership, nor has it originated from OPINIONS at such forums. It has been put together with INPUTS FROM ENGINEERS WHO DESIGNED YOUR VEHICLE. If they specifically ask you to do something, they must have a reason. So let us not assume superior knowledge and abuse a new car, contrary to what the designers of the car have stated.

The manual clearly asks us to do the following:

1) Maintain the *ENGINE RPMS* below 4000 during the break-in. It has NOT ASKED US to maintain the speed of the vehicle below any figure like say, 60mph. You can drive faster than 70mph, as long as you do not go above 4000rpm.

2) Never drive your vehicle constantly at a specific speed, either fast or slow. In other words, DO NOT use cruise control and go at a set speed, during the break-in period. What this basically means is that do not maintain a CONSTANT ENGINE RPM while driving. Constantly vary the Engine RPM as much as possible, of course without exceeding 4000rpm.

3) Do not slam on your brakes unless it is an emergency. Slamming on the brakes induce a transmission kick-down, which does not help a new engine and transmission who are learning to work together.

4) Suddenly slamming the accelerator. Again can induce a transmission kickdown and also raises the engine RPM beyond what is recommended.

Basically, we have got years and years to drive the way we want to. Stick to the recommendations of Subaru engineers for the 1st 1000 miles AT LEAST. You will certainly not regret it, and definitely be glad that you did.

Later...AH

twrx · October 2001

Celcam--larger sway bar should help. 20mm is what WRX sedan has. Wagon has 17mm. Read posts on WRX wagon board from an owner who has done this. It is inexpensive (less than $100) and can be intalled without too much trouble. Thinking about the 20 for my WRX wagon
TWRX

barresa62 · October 2001

The 20mm rear sway bar really does wonders for the WRX wagon's handling. I also installed a Whiteline 22mm front sway bar last Sat. to replace the stock 20mm. I like the balance better with this addition. If you're interested in the OEM 20mm rear sway bar from the sedan, this web address will be worth checking out: http://www.subaruparts.com/

Stephen

celcam · October 2001

Bob--the only upgrade would be the sway bar if I feel it needs it...and since people are saying it is cheap, I more intrigued. To be honest, it will probably do just fine the way it is...or I will wait until I have more money to put in a few of the gadgets that aren't standard with the RS.

Thanks twrx and Stephen for the info on the bar.

Celia...er...celcam.:)

hunter001 · October 2001

I believe you should be fine with the stock set-up of the RS. But if you need more spice in your commute, you need to increase the size of the rear anti-sway bar (also called Stabilizer bar, or even sway bar).

The point is that when you increase the diameter of the rear sway bar, the vehicle reduces its understeering tendency (which is a safety factor automakers build in, into these vehicles), and tend to over-steer more. So you could go the route taken by Stephen, by adding a front sway bar, which will rein in the tendency of the vehicle to oversteer. But the downside to adding too much stiffness into the sway bars is that you lose the ride compliance of your independent suspension equipped vehicle.

Later...AH

ps: In the hands of an average driver, an under-steering vehicle is safer than one that oversteers.

rsholland · October 2001

for most people, understeer is safer. My inclination would be to leave the RS stock, and not to fool with it.

Bob

kostamojen2 · October 2001

Actually, the 20mm sway bar will make the car neutral instead of having understeer tendancies. The stock front sway bar is either 19 or 20mm if im not mistaking, which its the play between the front and rear sway bars that create the understeer/oversteer/neutral tendancies.

Dont forget, that these cars arent 100k works of art, and they had to cut costs somewhere. Think of them more as a blank slate with which to work with rather than a finished product.

hunter001 · October 2001

You are correct. The 20mm bar would make the car neutral. But "neutral" takes the car even closer to "over-steer". In fact, when automakers build vehicles, they NEVER make a perfectly neutral car, since it is always on the verge of over-steer. The automakers generally engineer in a certain amount of under-steer into the car, rather than engineering a perfectly neutral car.

However, if Colin McRae or someone like that were to buy a car, they would probably change the handling balance to "neutral", since they are pros and can understand the nuances of the handling of the vehicle, and have a clear knowledge of how far they can push it. In the hands of the common Joe on the street (like you and me ??), an under-steering car is "safer", since it leaves a certain cushion of safety, before the car develops the tendency to spin.

Later...AH

ateixeira · October 2001

I went from 13mm to 18mm, and the difference is in the snow it's easier to fish tail for kicks. It doesn't do that unless I hit the gas on purpose, of course.

On dry pavement the tail will only come out in very extreme situations, such as a high speed U-turn where you drop the throttle in the middle. Getting back on the gas brings her back in line nicely.

Yes, for regular folks, that's not the ideal setup.

Man, wait 'til winter. WRXs only came out in the Spring, so owners have not yet had a winter to try out the AWD.

-juice

paisan · October 2001

Was one of us once!

-mike

barresa62 · October 2001

the 20mm rear sway creating the ability to oversteer easier than staying w/the 17mm. This is assuming one stays w/the stock 20mm front bar. I decided to upgrade the front to 22mm for a bit more balance. I like the change except for the fact that I'm getting a dull hollow-like knock intermittently. I think it's coming from the front (at times I thought it was the rear). I checked the rear bar just in case but it seems tight. I haven't gone underneath the front to re-torque the bolts on the front sway bar since it was installed last Sat. This may be the ticket.

Anyhow, the front turn in is crisp and overall the car just seems tighter. The ride is a bit less compliant but nothing to complain about.

Stephen

hunter001 · October 2001

:-)

jmess · October 2001

You can loosen the car with the stock bar by increasing the rear tire pressure in 2 LB increments until you get the balance you want. You can also tighten up the car with the bigger rear bar by lowering the rear tire pressure or increasing the front tire pressure. You want to make sure you don't go below Subies recommended pressure on any tire or exceed the tire's max pressure rating printed on the side of the tire. In most cases the tire pressure specified by mfg like Subie is a compromise between ride and handling. So increasing the tire pressure will stiffen the tire sidewalls; increasing the spring rate of the sidewall. So in general I tend to run 5 psi more than the car mfgs recommended pressure on all my cars because it makes the car more responsive; at the expense of a little ride quality. On my pickup truck I run 10 psi more in the front and 5 psi more in the rear. I added an aftermarket rear bar and I felt the rear was a little too twitchey in the wet. Taking 5 psi out or the rears improved the balance and I am still 5 psi over what the mfg recommends. At some point if you get too carried away with tire pressure you may see some change in tire wear pattern. When you really tune a suspension at some point you end up making some alignment changes. Adding a little more front camber will loosen up the rear end and make the car turn in better for example. More front toe out improves turn in and increase over steer. In most cases your cars alignment settings are somewhere in the middle of what is specified by Subie. You can have you alignment guy take it to the max or min side of the spec without any ill effects. Note most alignment guys are trying to get your car done ASAP and only try to get the car within the spec so tipping them $20 will help insure that you get exactly what you ask for. The trouble with alignments changes are they can be expensive if you don't find what you wanted the first time. It helps to talk to some of the guys who autox the cars and find out what alignment setting they use then recalibrate it for street driving. The really smart, fast, competitive guys will make some alignment changes. In the bone stock classes they will still be within the mfg + or - specs but will have made some adjustments towards one end of the spec.

pearlbluesoul · October 2001

After going through the OBS, the Forester, and Legacy GT, I've finally decided to take the plunge and go with a WRX sedan.

My question is to recent Canadian buyers of the WRX: what was the price you paid for your cars "out the door".

The Subaru website says the MSRP for the WRX with auto transmission is $36,500, and CarCostCanada says that the Dealer Invoice for the same car is $33,164. The dealer I've been talking to says that prices are not negotiable; I'll have to pay the MSRP. I'm not sure if this is because I'm looking for an automatic and these are rarer? He claims that Subaru of Canada has adopted a "haggle-free" policy like Saturn, so prices are out of his control. Should I beleive him?

ateixeira · October 2001

10 psi over may be a bit much for some (in terms of ride quality). Also, you may get more wear at the center of the tread, unless you're cornering hard often (which means everyone).

I'd visit a different dealer. Full MSRP in the midst of an economic down turn? Right.

-juice

mgreene1 · October 2001

Most people don't realize how much you can tweak the handling by varying tire pressures. You can definitely dial in more oversteer by increasing rear tire pressures. The recommended pressures usually err on the side of ride quality and you can usually get noticable improvements by simply increasing tire pressures. Moving to a thicker bar in the rear will reduce understeer but it's a lot simpler to just run higher rear pressures if you want less understeer. Subaru obviously gave the wagon that thinner rear bar because of the different weight distribution. Unless you plan on doing competitive events, adding a thicker bar in the rear for the wagon doesn't make a lot of sense and it reduces your flexibility to dial in the handling for different loads. Also, for winter driving, you may want to run a little higher pressure. Audi says to increase their recommended pressure by 3psi when using winter tires. Of course, cold weather will also lower the psi so people should take extra care to make sure they aren't underinflated when the ambient temperature drops.

kostamojen2 · October 2001

Any recomendations for tire pumps? Im tired of doing it by foot

bedabi · October 2001

Hi all! I got back from Ireland a couple of days go. I didn't get to see too much of it, just a bit of Dublin, a lot of Carlow, a bit of Kilkenny and a touch of Arklow, but I did keep my eyes open on cars.

No Impreza Turbos (as they're called there pre-2001) were available for rent (there was a VERY nice Benz E320 TURBO DIESEL available though). I did see about three on the road. Two sounded like they had aftermarket exhausts and one had a P1 wing. What did really impress me was a sighting of an Excort RS Cosworth in Kilkenny. WOW! I can't believe it's never been available here. Even crawling through traffic, it sounded pretty mean. None of that buzzy tin can stuff of Hondas, but a growly thrum. Looked pretty good too. Other than that, I was imressed by the number of cars there that we've never seen stateside, especially all the French cars and Opels. Even familiar marques look strange. For example, if the hatchback Toyota Corolla didn't say "Toyota Corolla" on the back, you'd never recognize it. Even when the body is the same there's something different. For example, there's the Lexus IS 200, with only a 2.0 liter six. The most common BMW 3-series I saw was a 318 (no NOT the hatchback).

I drove a rented Renault Laguna manual there for 7 days. And there's a reason why there are no French cars on the US market -- they suck. It took a while to get used to driving on the wrong side of the road and shifting on the left. The roads there are tiny and are full of curves and bends. One can easily see why Imprezas are viewed as king of the road there! Also there are hardly any potholes, due to there being no infrastructure under many of the roads as we have. As a result, most of the cars there have stiffer suspensions and handle pretty well, though they lack the power due to gas being about $2.40 for a gallon of unleaded.

Young men drive pretty fast anyway. One friend gave me a ride in his Benz E320 with said turbo diesel engine and took it down one of those narrow windy roads up to 110. I believe he still has imprints of my fingernails in his dash. By the by, that engine was so smooth and powerful, you'd never know it was a turbo, much less a diesel. The suspension was also stiffer than U.S.-spec E-class sedans I've been in. The same guy told me that WRX's are a favorite in ireland for bank robbers, because the police simply can't can't catch thieves in them on those twisty roads.

All in all, it's good to be back on the right side fo the road again. When I first drove back here n NYC, I automatically reached for the shifter with my left hand!

Subaru Impreza WRX

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