Lincoln LS

rayainsw · April 2001

"Second, I'm wondering how any of you are living with the Sport Package suspension. I liked it on good roads but it was a little rough on broken pavement, and since it reminded me of a GTP that hammered me for three years, I passed on it. But now I think I'd like a little sharper handling, as well as a little (lot) more power. My wife really likes the car and may end up with it, freeing me for something a little more sporty. "

Interesting - I also owned a GP GTP for about 3 years - modified slightly...

With over 20,000 miles on my 2000 LS8 Sport, my answer is: I am living with it just fine. But I live in Georgia. And if I still lived in New England, I would not be able to ... The harshness over small, sharp bumps, broken pavement, or (drum roll please) Frost Heaves would not be acceptable.

I would still like to try a set of Bilstein dampers - but none exist for the LS. Today.

Cheers,
- Ray
Still looking for upgrades to suspension and drivetrain - but looking forward to driving the LS on a track soon just as it is.....

buckwheat · April 2001

The Lincoln LS that was to be scarce in rental fleets now appears it will be one of the stars of the fleet now that Hertz is a solely owned division of Ford. Increases in rental stock of the Premier Group of vehicles to become commonplace rentals between $69 - $119 a day. http://public.wsj.com/sn/y/SB988581028321535228.html

johnnylinc · April 2001

In the mini-brochure, on the last order sheet I saw, and in all the online price lists, indications are that the Premium package is only available with the two tutone interiors: One is light and medium parchment, and the other is light graphite and deep charcoal. Yesterday, however, I saw a Premium package-equipped LS that had just come off the truck. It had a black exterior and the interior was all charcoal; there were no light graphite accents anywhere. It had the Nudo leather with basket-weave seat inserts just like the ivory & parchment Premium car I saw a couple weeks ago. So, if you're interested in the Premium package but don't care for the tutone, check with your dealer--there's definitely at least one monotone interior available.

I have a question about the "American Luxury" magazine. I got my car on Sept. 1, 2000, and I've gotten one copy of the mag--mine is the Winter/Spring 2001 edition with the article on Mr. McGovern. (It also has a nice article on touring my native Central Texas.

) Is everyone getting this magazine, and does anyone know when it began publication? Have there been any LS-specific articles? I assume the current edition is in the mail now; haven't gotten it yet.

Finally, like cwesley, I've had zero problems so far. That's after 8 months and 8500 miles. Nothing has broken, nothing has needed attention, nothing vibrates; my only trips to the dealer have been for oil changes and a tire rotation. That's not to say that my windows won't crash tomorrow, but so far, all's swell.

Note to cwesley: When Stan's on the course, just be sure to keep a VERY safe distance from the finish line. That's where he tends to inflict the most cone carnage. Hehheh...:)

karzz · April 2001

Here is a post from a Jag S-Type board regarding a similar issue with a slight vibration of the steering wheel at highway speeds. The following are the mechanic's notes from the invoice. The owner reported the problem resolved.

Tires out of round. Balance Test, drove vehicle and verified complaint. Removed and balanced all four tires. Drove again and vibration was still there. Was asked to remove tires and measure radial run-put on all four tires. Right Front
tire was severely out of round, swapped tire with spare tire and wheel and adjusted tire pressures. Vibration persisted and then was asked to swap tires from stock. Balanced and installed 2 new wheels and tires from stock. Drove and verified repair. All complete.

chartrand · April 2001

If you had a blast driving the cones in Irvine,then check out the Cadillac World Challenge at www.motortrend.com. They are all over the US. I did mine in March in Grand Prairie Texas. You can compare the LS to Meres, Lexus,BMW, Jags etc. Driving them back to back through the same course really gives you a direct comparison.
As previously stated, the hands down handling champ was the BMW 540I. That said I wouldn't pay $20K more than I did for the LS for this privilege. Try it for yourself, there's no obligation, they serve a lunch and you get a gift for attending (almost as good as AS Mania)

jroger19 · April 2001

Someone asked if I am still reading these posts. Of course I am! Each and every one.

Our thanks to all of you who have purchased a Lincoln LS. I hope you are enjoying your car as much as I am my V6 manual.

Some have asked why we are not making a V8 manual. The answer is that even I, a certified car nut, cannot show an adequate demand given the cost of creating the car. I wish I could, as I would personally be the first in line for a V8 manual.

Please remember that we at Lincoln are committed to your satisfaction with your purchase. If you are having any problems that cannot be resolved with your dealer please contact me at jroger19@ford.com.

Report any dealers selling LS's with vinyl roofs to the same address!!

rcupka · April 2001

I should probably take this opportunity to tell you that in the recent restructuring of Lincoln / Mercury Product Development, I have been assigned to a new position.

Effective April 2001 I was named Chief Engineer for the Grand Marquis carline and also have responsibility for the Crown Victoria and Police Cars (to catch speeding LS owners). I will continue to participate in this forum with the many friends I have made over the past two years.

On the very positive side, I just returned from a Marauder Evaluation Drive where we drove two Marauders through the back roads and mountain curves of Georgia, North Carolina, Tennesee, and Kentucky (Ohio too, but the roads were flat and boring).

Thanks again for all the kind words and tough criticism over the past few years, I have learned a lot from both. Above all, I believe the LS will always be the vehicle I am most proud to have worked on, and hope to continue to assist and socialize with all of you in the future.

By the way, I just subscribed to the Marauder Town Hall, so it looks like I will get no sleep (or work done) as I read TWO sets of new posts each day!

Happy Motoring!
Dick

reneleblanc · April 2001

J. Rogers: I hear what you are saying. After a 39 year engineering career, I am quite aware of how big corporations get fixated on bean counting.

The problem is that some choices cannot be made purely upon the way that bean counters think the bottom line figures relate back to the product development. There are intangible links that bean counters don't understand.

Just the existence of a high-end sport V8 with more HP and a good 6-speed manual (even a 5-speed, if the ratios and rear-end ratios were well chosen) would give a credibility to the whole LS product line that it doesn't yet have. Even if you don't sell enough of that model to cover the development cost, you'll sell enough MORE of the other models because of it.

If Lincoln wants to face down competition from Infinity, Lexus, BMW, and Audie I think you have to go this extra mile.

speedshift · April 2001

joe166 and rayainsw, thanks for your responses. Yeah, I thought maybe Lincoln assumes that anyone who goes with the base suspension is more conservative and likes more chrome. Not true in my case. My car wasn't on the lot when I started negotiating with the dealer and when it showed up with chrome bumper trim that wasn't a pleasant surprise, but it's growing on me--I don't know what that says about my taste ;-).

I know the Sport Package doesn't include more power but thinking about it, why not a shorter axle ratio (cheap) or even the Jag V6 (probably not cheap)?

jroger19, I like your attitude toward vinyl tops. Too bad for Catera that no one polices Cadillac dealers like that.

drolds1 · May 2001

Dick, I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say we're sorry to "lose" you. Our loss is Marquis' gain.

Can you tell us a little about whomever has replaced you. We can only hope that he or she will continue the interest, enthusiasm and kindness that you have shown us since the LS launch.

It was my distinct pleasure to meet you at LS Mania and I wish you the best of luck and continued success in your new position. I expect to see a rompin' stompin' Marauder for the '03 model year! Now see if you can eliminate those vinyl roofs from the GM:)

Thanks for your past help, and we expect to continue to see you here.

Artie

giowa · May 2001

I've received two issues, Fall/Winter 2000 and Winter/Spring 2001. I'm assuming a Spring/Summer 2001 issue should be out soon. The intro page of the Fall/Winter 2000 issue says "welcome you to our premiere issue of American Luxury magazine, created exclusively for you in partnership with Conde Nast Publications, the nation's leading publisher of magazines about fashion, beauty, health and fitness, home design, travel, and food and wine."

jerrym3 · May 2001

Please introduce yourself to the Marauder Board, and tell us what your first driving impressions of the car were.

Remember, we have a full year to go before we can touch, feel, and drive this car, so, for those of us that are considering other cars now, any information that you can provide will help us justify delaying our purchase.

thomas_l · May 2001

If you're interested in seeing how the LS stacks up check out my runs on SCCA SOLO-II here and they misspelled Lincoln. I ran my 00 V8 sport on 3/17-18 and 4/8. The results are in table format so you can import into Excel and sort the whole list by times or just eyeball it if you don't feel like wrestling with Excel. I am running bone stock with the 17" Firestones it came with. I can second what Brian said - the lack of limited slip rear is this car's achilles heel. On the results for I forget which race there was both a late model 528 and 540. I was within 0.5 sec of the 528 (blame the driver) and pounded by the 540 (blame my car). AdvanceTrac is a good substitute if you're driving thru mud or something, but it really fights your acceleration on the cone course. I also have video posted on my website if you want to see what the LS looks like with the tail hanging out.

BTW: If last week's results post by the time you look at them, I wasn't racing the LS on 4/29. At the urging of my family and friends I decided to limit LS autocrossing to LLSOC club events only. Common sense tells me that A: When my LS breaks it will be expensive. B: The videos I have posted on the Internet have probably screwed me for trying to smoke a racing breakdown in as a warranty repair. I bought an 87 Fiero GT for SCCA and can replace the entire car if I want to for <$1000 if I grenade the engine/trans or wipe out the brakes. And it will happen eventually ;-D

leadfoot4 · May 2001

It's with great sadness that I have to report that I have now seen my first LS with the dreaded "Padded Vinyl Top". It was parked in front of a strip mall near my home. I was in traffic, and had passed the mall's entrance before I saw it, so I couldn't turn in and look for a dealer sticker, to establish who had desecrated this poor,innocent car.
A moment of silence for one of our fallen comrades........

jerrym3 · May 2001

I posted last year that I saw a vinyl top LS on the showroom floor in a New Jersey dealership. A few months ago, the dealership had another one, but not on the showroom floor. (The same dealer also displayed a very attractive black SuperSport version, and now has an LS on the lot with after market chrome wheels.)

As independent businesses, if a customer walks in and says he/she wants a vinyl top, what salesman is going to risk a sale by trying to persuade the buyer otherwise? And, what clout does Lincoln really have over the dealer when it comes to dealer add-ons that do not affect the manufacturer warranty?

One of the first rules in sales-the customer is always right (even when he/she is wrong).

giowa · May 2001

Given the underwhelming response to the LS6 manual, why didn't Lincoln just offer an LS8 manual? More people appear interested in an LS8 manual than an LS6. If you have to save money and want a manual, can't you drop the LS6 manual?

Does Jag have any plans to offer an S-type 4.0 V-8 with a manual, either in USA or Europe? If so, then Lincoln should, too.

I agree with reneleblanc (#2259) in regard to not allowing bean counters to make all the decisions. Does the Dodge Viper generate DC a ton of profits? Sell tens of thousands of units annually? Look at how much time, money, and resources Dodge has expended over the past decade on it. And Dodge is both keeping it around and making major improvements in the new models.

I hope Lincoln keeps in mind the bigger impact that can be achieved by having a world-class car that stands out. Sure, maybe it loses a bit of money, but if it brings in publicity and buyers for other cars then it has "paid" for itself.

Maybe Lincoln should view a manual LS8 like the Marauder. Seems like Mercury has the right idea, as Chevy did before with the '94-'96 Impala SS, with their Marauder. Lowish production that seems more designed to make a positive marketing statement and generate some floor traffic and bring in a new type buyer with different age & income demographics. I'd be surprised if Mercury is planning on the Marauder ever selling over 50,000 units annually. They'll start small and then build up if there is demand. (Which is what Chevy did successfully with Impala SS. SS started off at about 6K in '94 and by last year in '96 was selling nearly 40K. I hope Mercury has a hit with Marauder. I bought my '96 SS brand new in '96, just paid her off, and plan on keeping her for decades.)

packv12 · May 2001

I've been collecting and selling cars for awhile. I know that it's based on the "Bigger Fool Theory". That is, once you have it, you need to find a bigger fool than yourself who wants it as bad as you once did. I'll readily admit that I've been a fairly big fool on some of my purchases, but playing around with the old stuff teaches a person alot of lessons.

Everything about the market is implied value. The only value of old cars is what any-one-person wants to pay for it. I cannot find any price guide to suggest that a fairly recent car has any huge price increase. I've seen alot of cars that are not even through their respective depreciation cycle as being hawked as a collectors car.

Final runs of a car don't neccasarily insure that they will appreciate. Heck, even total production numbers don't mean anything in pricing. I've seen late model Packards selling for nothing and '65 Mustangs selling for outrageous prices, to mention but two.

If a person wants to keep recent iron, I say fine. Please, don't insult the hobby by referring to any model or make as a "Collectible" car. Is it special interest, yes, collectible, way to soon to tell.

I'm sorry about the rant, but I don't believe the random discussion about a recent low production car needs the implied value attached to it.

joe166 · May 2001

This is a fascinating subject. There was or is a forum on this site specific to it that I subscribed to. Some of the ideas of people as to "collectibles" are really funny. Of course, anything is collectible if you define that as something you are willing to keep for a while, but I agree that people have a wierd idea as to what might appreciate in value. One guy was already "collecting" his Mercury Marquis because it was really good on the highway. To each his own, but it is IMHO, kind of funny. The argument got so heated that apparently there have been few new posts as I don't remember seeing it among my subscriptions for the last couple of weeks.

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

I think if Lincoln decided to be slightly leading-edge and offered a special limited-edition manual V-8 of say 2000 copies, just like the Neiman-Marcus Blackwood or Neiman-Marcus T-Bird, and charged $2,000 more for the privelege, that would bring in $4,000,000 dollars, which should MORE than account for the development and certification costs.

Since it would be limited edition, they would sell out within one month of the announcement, based on feedback we have received about the enthusiasm of this model. This would prove to Lincoln management that a market for a manual V-8 exists, give the brand MUCH NEEDED enthusiast support, and establish the LS as a performance luxury brand and THE ONLY AMERICAN LUXURY SEDAN built be an American car company that has the stones to bring enthusiasm back to the forefront.

The engineers would love to build this, if they haven't tried it already. This car can establish bragging rights for Lincoln and will take the brand a lot further than the silly commercials that show ties on a hanger.

There's the cost justification and analysis. $2,000 more for the limited-edition LS-8 Manual, 2,000 copies, 4 million dollars. Sell out within a month of introduction. Questions or is my math wrong?

Brian

drolds1 · May 2001

...[a]nd, what clout does Lincoln really have over the dealer when it comes to dealer add-ons that do not affect the manufacturer warranty?

This topic came up at LS Mania. According to the Lincoln folks in a position to know, unfortunately customers do try to make warranty claims on non-factory add-ons, e.g., rust caused by aftermarket installation of add-on tops. Since "the customer is always right" ill will follows. This, despite Lincoln having nothing to do with it in the first place.

heyjewel · May 2001

Brian;

Your math is right, but I think one of your assumptions is wrong. I'd bet development costs would be more like $40million than 4.

Aside - read somewhere that last year on the bottom line, Ford made just under $500 profit (overall average) per car. GM made $10 per car. I think I read this on autoextremist.com

I love my V6 manual. But I agree that Lincoln **Needs** to do something more if they really want to make a mark (no pun intended:>) and go toe-to-toe with the big boys from Europe.

cwesley · May 2001

If the V8 manual is DOA, let me renew my plea for a hotter version of the 6 cyl. manual. IMHO, the poor manual sales probably have more to do with lack of dealer interest than buyer interest. I also understand the problems of convincing corporate to spend the R&D money on a V8 manual. The reoccurring Viper reference fails to recognize that Diamler-Chrysler shareholders are taking a bath.

That said, how much of an investment would it take to add horse power to the existing 6 cyl. platform? You may not end up with the equivalent of a V8 manual, but I suspect you could come pretty close and keep costs down as well. This doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition.

As a very happy current owner of a 6 manual, I'll commit right now to buying a new one if you do some engine work.

div2 · May 2001

Truth be told, neither the LS or 5er were designed to be autocross terrors. If you want to see what your LS can really do, I suggest you take it to a road course school conducted by Track Time or one of the BMW Car Club Chapters. I've seen Corollas rented from Hertz, Lingenfelter Vettes and Vipers at CCA schools. At most your tires and brakes may suffer a bit of wear, and top speeds are fairly moderate(usually less than 120mph). Try it, you'll likely be hooked.

giowa · May 2001

I must be missing the post. What original post are you referring to where someone used the word "collectible"? I agree that who knows what car built today, tomorrow, or within the recent past will be a true collectible. But it does seem like almost any originally popular new performance-oriented car that is well maintained by the original owner, kept stock, and has low miles will be worth something in 20 or more years. Whether it kept up with inflation is another matter. But it will certainly be worth far, far more than the run of the mill car from the same model year. How much does a good low mile '80s Buick Grand National go for today versus a similar Buick Regal from same year? How many Grand Nationals are garaged or being quietly collected?

I hope Mercury does pretty much what Chevy did with the '94-'96 Impala SS and avoid any of Chevy's mistakes. Won't guarantee a collectible, but won't hurt, either. All I know about the Impala SS is that it holds its resale value very, very well, esp. if a '96 model (w/tach & floor shifter), in good shape, and low miles. Already are lots of enthusiast web sites, dedicated clubs, national organizations, parts suppliers, etc. That all bodes well for the future value of a well maintained one. As for me, I just want to give my 10-year-old son a beautiful '96 Impala SS when I pass away in a long time. (Who knows, by then the internal combustion engine may be a thing of the past.)

How much might a limited production LS8 manual sport be worth in future? I, for one, would like to find out in 20 years! And be an original owner.

Not sure anyone can say Viper has caused Chrysler to take a bath. When I think super high performance Detroit iron I immediately think Viper. Not Corvette. Corvette a distant 2nd and Mustang Cobra a far distant 3rd. Hardly the Viper's fault that cars like the Avenger, Sebring, etc. fail to have sufficient performance to justify interest. The Viper has been valuable enough for Dodge to keep building and improving. Still turns heads and gives a positive image to Dodge. They need to have more in showrooms and autoshows to promote dealer floor traffic. Does the Navigator or Blackwood generate much excitement or heavy dealer floor traffic?

slunar · May 2001

The value of anything you or I own, whether it be your car, house, objects of art, stock in a company etc. is only worth what someone else will pay for it and not some inflated value an appraiser may place on it. Sort of like that antique auction show on PBS myh parents love to watch. Everyone is always finding a $10,000 vase for $500.00. I've yet to hear about someone on that show paying $10,000 for a $500 vase. There are a handful of exceptions such as a Porsche 959 but 99.99% of the time any production car you purchase is a looser in terms of future value, especially when the time value of money is figured in.

IMHO not building a manual LS-8 is a mistake. The LS has already faded from the pages of any current car magazine. Even if Lincoln can only sell a handfull of LS-8 manuals just having some in the hands of the car rag. writers and having them fill pages in their car rags sells auto LS's to owners who ar buying a piece of that performance image. It's essentialy the same sales halo effect that come from racing. I'm sure the free publicity that a LS-8 manual would get easily outweighs the development cost. Makes me wonder if the manual T-Bird is now dead too.

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

That's a great segue into LS MANIA OVERDRIVE 2 in Saint Louis. We have reserved Gateway International Raceway's road course (all 1.67 miles of it) for a members-only driving school.

Want more info? Go to LLSOC's site at www.llsoc.com and follow the links to LS MANIA OVERDRIVE 2.

Brian(and I didn't even pay him to say that!)

ronniepooh · May 2001

I concur on the attention a V8 LS would generate in the automotive press, which attracts buyers. I have told my LS buying story before on this forum. November 1999. In the market for a RWD, 6 cylinder performance sedan. $34,000 was my top spending limit. Used 528 w/sport package was my only thought, UNTIL I read numerous car magazines reviewing the LS. The reason I actually went to a Lincoln dealership? The articles mentioned the Getrag 5 speed manual transmission. THAT is what brought me to the dealership. Now once I got there, I did switch to the automatic transmission. Sorry, this DC area traffic has killed my clutch leg after 15 years of stop and go, and increasing traffic on our roadways.
But also hard to justify a V8 manual when the V6 isnt selling well at all. Be glad that Lincoln didnt discontinue the V6 manual for 2001, considering the low sales numbers. And yes, I know...Lincoln should have promoted the manual more, forced dealers to have manuals in stock, etc. But you have to look at the American car market overall. We hate manuals. Period. (And yes, the BMW is the exception, not the rule).

With all that said, if Lincoln came out with a V8 LS manual, would I consider buying it? Definitely!

giowa · May 2001

In today's mail I received my latest issue of American Luxury, Spring/Summer 2001. Back page has an ad for LS8. Has one article on Navigator (for its 5-star safety rating) and another article on Blackwood. Inside front page has ad for Blackwood. In middle there is ad for Navigator. Interestingly, don't see anything on either TC or Continental. (Too bad LS6 manual not advertised or mentioned.)

johnnylinc · May 2001

Thanks for the feedback on "American Luxury" (2262, 2279); I appreciate it!

babicka · May 2001

The only reason that the LS had a manual tranny in the first place is because LM was planning to go to Europe with the car. One must have a manual to sell the car when competing agains AUDI, BMW, Mercedes, OPEL, FIAT, ALFA, Peugeot etc. and where auto tranny is an expensive option. After the purchase of Volvo the plan was placed on hold. Will we see and V8 manual in the future? Maybe if they decide to put one into the 4.0 Jaguar, otherwise it is all a question of market demand?

johnnylinc · May 2001

Dick,
I'd like to echo what Artie said and wish you the best in your new assignment--those Marauder fans don't know how lucky they are. I had a ball at the Irvine gathering (especially at happy hour) due in no small part to your enthusiastic participation.

Thanks for everything you've done to make my LS the great car that it is; I enjoy every minute behind the wheel. Don't be a stranger!

John C.

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

1. The new Chief Program Engineer for Lincoln LS is every bit a car nut as Dick Cupka.(Dick, Good luck in your new position. Must be a blast to drive a police car around. Thank you for being a friend and putting up with my sometimes silly questions).

2. You do not need a limited-slip differential to drive the LS fast in an autocross. The weight transfer between rear wheels is not significant enough to have the driving wheel spinning uselessly, especially if you drive smoothly. I tried specifically to break the rear loose at Mania 1 coming out of a 90 degree turn and only with considerable horsing around and flooring could I do it.

3. The Tremec 6-speed and the Cobra IRS rear end is nowhere smooth enough to muscle into the LS. If you haven't driven with one of these, trust me you would notice the coarseness of either of them. They are fine in the Mustang but have no place in our LS.

4. The Getrag 6-speed that can handle the torque of the V-8 is relatively new, expensive and production spoken for.

giowa · May 2001

Who builds General Motor's 6-speed manuals used in the Corvette, Trans Am/Firebird, and Camaro? If Getrag production spoken for and no Ford unit can handle LS8 engine output, then here's an option. Wonder if GM would sell Lincoln a couple thousand units a year? Doubt this unit is too expensive, if GM can use in $25K Camaros. And if it is OK for a $50K Corvette...

tom12253 · May 2001

My service manager called me this mourning to set up loaner for when my car is in for service. I was a little suprised when he asked if I could research a problem he is having with 2 LS stereo systems. I guess he asked me because thanks to all who participate here, I have been able to give him info faster then the system gets it to him.

Here is whats happening with the LS's. They have Alpine Audiophile units with the subwoofers. there is a intermittent buzzing or humming noise in the rear speakers. They ran new grounds to the stereo and the rear amp and this helped for a while but then it came back. One owner thought the buzzing was connected to the use of the rear defroster so the dealer replaced the switch and that didn't help.

Anybody who has had a similar problem and had it fixed please let me know what was done. I remember a few posts on this topic but can't remember the fix for the problem.

Thanks Tom....

giowa · May 2001

Just read the April update to their on-going saga. Overall, seems pretty fair and reflective of many experiences here. They did have the AT TSB done and comment on there being some improvement, but still have AT issues. That's exactly what I've found, too. Have some interesting things to say vis-a-vis BMW. I like what they say about product planners sweating the details in key areas. The LS is a very good car that is nearly great. Wouldn't take much.

lolaj42 · May 2001

I think this latest update was more objective than anything they've written in the past several months. While the overall tone was a favorable endorsement for the LS, it was still critical of the LSs drivetrain refinement. I can't say that I've driven enough miles in a BMW to say I can relate to their view, but considering some of the reports that are posted on this board re. the LSs delayed transmission engagements, 51 mph drone, lack of VVT, etc., Edmunds view sounds pretty fair.

. . . now wondering what the Lincoln folks have up thier sleeve for the 2003 LS . . .

sdouglas2 · May 2001

GM trannies in an LS8? You guys are desparate!

One thing to think about: Lincoln would have to pay GM (or other company) to re-tool part of production so the trans would fit a 3.9 V8. I'm not sure if the GM six speed has a separate bellhousing or not, but at best, a new one will need to be designed. What if the housing is integral to the trans case? Giowa makes some very good points, but to think it would not be too expensive is wrong.

Not to mention there is no flywheel, clutch or pressure plate designed for the 3.9L: Pay for all of these new parts and figure in time for durability testing, you can see why it's a large money pit for a V8 manual "flagship". Why I would love to see a V8 manual as much as most of you, I doubt you can convice the company the returns are worth the costs.

Same would apply to Getrag, Tremmec, Muncie, etc...

acarbonell · May 2001

I have been an avid reader of this board for 2 years and a proud owner for approx. 1 year and a 1/2 of a V8 sport. The time has come in my life where I'm at a crossroad and I have decided that the only path to take is to sadly sell my little piece of American Luxury.

You all have been very supportive and very informative as well as entertaining in my brief ownership of this vehicle. I do plan to be back! Thanks to the guys that would personally call or write me back to help solve problems I was having. (Mark & Dick at Lincoln & countless others)
And thank you to this board for giving us the opportunity to discover other enthusiasts out there.

Since you all are true enthusiasts of the car, I was hoping someone might know of someone who is looking to purchase a quality used vehicle.

I hope someone will be able to help me out of my situation. The details and my information are on my profile.
Again, a sincere thank you.

Sadly bowing out...
Alex

ls1bmw0 · May 2001

The Firebird/Camaro/Corvette use the Tremec T-56 aka Borg-Warner.

drolds1 · May 2001

From BON- Residuals @24months:
LS V8
59%
51%

LS V6 manual trans.
58%
50%

LS V6 auto trans.
60%
51%
Intersting that the V6 auto has the highest 24 month residual. LS has highest residual of all LM products.

stanny1 · May 2001

Scot - just my point exactly. The V-6 is much closer to the reality of a Getrag six-speed, which is becoming the six-speed tranny of choice by European and Japanese manufacturers.
There should not be much to do to add the Sixer to the V-6. If the Getrag can handle Toyota Supras and M5s, the V-6 LS is a no-brainer. No durability testing necessary. Use the same clutch, flywheel, throwout bearing, etc. I don't know if there's much as far as bellhousing redesign - does the Getrag Six have the same bolt pattern and mating surface configuration as the 221? The real advantage of the six-speed is the overdrive sixth gear, which would enable a 3:58 rear ratio instead of the cruiser 3:07, while increasing gas mileage, lowering wear and rpm (NVH). It's a win-win. Just add the cost to the car - it's not significant for the benefits. Soon, six-speeds will be the norm, and the LS will be non-competitive not even considering the need or demand for better EPA/CAFE numbers. Six-speeds would cure the MAJOR shortcoming of the LS Manual. Then an LSD pumpkin with 3:58 and VVT would make the car really competitive with the Germans, especially in value. 0-60 times would be in the mid to high 6's. Let's Go!

johnnylinc · May 2001

I haven't experienced this problem, but Road & Track magazine reported something similar with their long-term test LS. The quote from the May 2001 update is: "There's a lot of ignition noise coming through the rear speakers." They also described it as "annoying speaker buzz". Quoting again from the article: "The technician at our local Lincoln dealer installed a new filter for the amplifier, and as of this writing, it appears to have cured the noise pollution problem."

Unfortunately, they don't say which dealer was used. R&T's editorial offices are in Newport Beach, CA, 92663. According to the Lincoln dealer locator, the closest dealer is Costa Mesa LM. Here's a link to their website: http://home.dealerconnection.com/DealerConnection/Web/home.asp?dealerid=4939

I have no idea whether that's the right one. You might try going to the R&T website at http://www.roadandtrack.com and Emailing them to confirm which dealer was used; they have an Email addy for comments and questions. If you can get that info, your dealer might be able to get a part number and/or instructions from their dealer.

The only poster that I know of who had this problem was sniemietz, and his dealer added a ground wire, but you said your guy already tried that.

Sorry for the roundabout path; wish I could give you something more specific.

thomas_l · May 2001

Logic tells me Ford is probably using (virtually) the same automatic in both the 6 & 8 models, yet only offering the manual on the 6. Why the shortcut? Is it just me or is that strategy just a little stinky? My guess is that there are three levels these things filter thru before we consumers see them.

1. Marketing - can we sell it

2. Engineering - will it work? how long?

3. Legal - will we get sued?

Quite a 1-2-3 punch and the V8 stick got it from the first punch. I don't buy the cost of development excuse - too many other manufacturers have "overcome" this R&D "expense" to offer both auto and manual trans on different engine platforms. Let's see... that would be just about every other make and model in the LS's class.

sdouglas2 · May 2001

"Quite a 1-2-3 punch and the V8 stick got it from the first punch. I don't buy the cost of development excuse - too many other manufacturers have "overcome" this R&D "expense" to offer both auto and manual trans on different engine platforms. Let's see... that would be just about every other make and model in the LS's class."

Let's get a list of these cars going; you might just realize that the very same cars you tout as having both auto and manual trans options are also sold in Europe where transmission preference is opposite of North America (i.e. BMW / MB / Audi). If you bring up Toyota (Lexus) bringing a 6 speed to the IS, realize this: Toyota / Lexus is very successful for many reasons, one is that they commonize parts across many vehicle lines. There's no reason to suspect the 6 speed out of the Supra isn't a direct bolt-in. The LS8 doesn't have any previous platform(s) to pull parts from.

What you really hit on is marketing. Jim Rogers told the list that marketing says it won't sell in large enough numbers. Period. I don't think Lincoln is worried from an engineering standpoint nor from a legal standpoint, just about the risk of losing money.

For what it's worth, Jim and I are not throwing out excuses to the list, just trying to answer your questions.

Maybe I'll start a conversion shop out of my garage to give you guys a manual V8!

ezaircon4jc · May 2001

Doesn't the new Vette have a rear mounted transaxle?

stevenwglauser · May 2001

Anyone know how I can get on the mailing list?

Thanks.

thomas_l · May 2001

Don't get mad at me - I am just pointing out something that doesn't add up. My assertion is that Ford can hang the same automatic off both engines but not the manual. OK so maybe the bellhousing is different but it was not a show stopper for the auto. I am not naive enough to say they are identical. But come on - these things are complex but this isn't rocket science. And yeah I'm getting the Nomex on for all the cross posts about how much power/torque the 5 speed can take. Due to liability and reliability, the design probably has to be 2.5X whatever the max duty will be because some bozo (like me

) will test its limits and break it. I guess the point is that every manufacturer has common platforms and interchangeability is not taken for granted. I think you are mistaken in assuming that the 3.9L is so unique that nothing in other (past) production will mate to it. Yes it is an all new engine. Did Ford suddenly change their engineering standards for this one? For example external vs internal balancing, bellhousing pattern, etc. Probably not that dramatic a change.

As far as numbers, I think giowa's remark about the Dodge Viper and Prowler answers that question. That would probably make them loss leaders (definitely not mega revenue makers!) - intended to generate spin and sell the lower priced/less equipped models. Think of all the people slobbering over the Viper at the car show and then go buy a Cirrus because the Dodge guy was able to sell them something more practical.

I would love to see someone do a conversion. I would guess the best chance/less trouble would be to take a V6 manual car and cobble in the V8 engine. Who knows? Yes if you wind the 3.9L up and pop the clutch a few times you might break the factory 5 speed, so don't do that ;-D. It would probably hold up to spirited driving only the owner would have to accept the risk that at some point the (V6) manual will give up with the extra power, or at least it might wear faster.

sdouglas2 · May 2001

I'm not mad at you, but I couldn't hold my tongue! If I'm not mistaken, most of the LS competitors are German, with the exception of Lexus. German autos must be developed from the start to include manual transmissions if they're planned to sell in Europe. Is there an American LS competitor with a manual transmission?

I agree about your take on the Viper and Prowler, but the LS8 Manual wouldn't have the Glitz necessary to pull people into the showrooms on Supercar status alone. What would Linclons version of the Cirrus be to sell the people that couldn't get the V8 manual? V6 manual? I don't think it would work - there's much more car between a Viper and a Stratus ; ). Also, the viper isn't sold in "lesser" configurations, like a V8 version.
I just don't think an LS8 manual would draw that many more customers into the showroom. It would draw just about everybody on this board in!

And just for grins, if I did do a V8 LS manual conversion, I would pull the 3.9 and trans (to sell to a V6 owner that wanted to try hooking it to his 5 speed) and drop in a Cobra engine and trans. Hey, if I'm gonna dream, I'm gonna go big!

thomas_l · May 2001

Why not just transplant that supercharged F-150 power train. Was it a focus group brainstorm that made some executive think YES! let's put the MOST POWERFUL, AWESOME, almost 400HP setup in a PICKUP!

Hehehehe...

stanny1 · May 2001

If one goes to the Getrag website, the 221 five speed has a notation as to its torque limit - but it is in metric. But there is a possibility that the V-8 has too much torque for the little 221. Maybe the auto makers always put the smallest engine with the manual? The 540i6 is an exception. Look at the MB240 with the Getrag 6 speed. The smallest V-6 with much less hp than the Duratech. I don't think the MB 6 will be that popular either. Scot is hitting on something with the European thing. Manuals in Europe are perceived as gas savers. Maybe if our gas went to $5.00 a gallon, "American Luxury" might be redefined as having a rower also. Of course with the LS Manual's present gearing, I don't think there would be any economy advantage over an automatic. I can't seem to break 20mpg in mine. And since the LS isn't going to Europe after all, there won't be any pressure to change things for the export market. Let's face it -American drivers are spoiled or low on testosterone.

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