Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Phases - Godspeed if you have to go.
Doc - get home safe and take care of Linda.
Avalanche - be careful as you drive into the area. The traffic is sure to be awful.
Fuzzywuzzy - prayers for your Aunt.
God Bless America
.
After the Tower collapsed--which I watched through a window on my floor, the air was filled with thick, black smoke and debris. All trains in and out of the city are halted. The tower that collapsed landed in an area where they have lunchtime music shows. Reports from here indicate its like a butcher shop--dismembered bodies and blood everywhere.
The soot/dirt/debris OUTSIDE the Bank is about 2 inches thick, and the silence...is deafening. Looking up towards where the Trade center used to be--well, you CAN'T SEE anything...black smoke hangs over the downtown area. The Bank has its protection force out in force. At this point, I'm sitting here with one of those hokey masks you wear when there's a lot of dust in the air. The air INSIDE my area is thick with the smell of smoke, even though the windows were all closed. The shear force of the collapsse of the Tower forced the smoke, air, etc, through the small spaces around the window.
I have been here at the Bank for almost 28 years, and I've never, EVER seen anything like this. Normally, I come through the Trade Center around 6:55am and thank God this morning was no exception. I was outside when the first plane hit the BACK tower of the Trade Center, but certainly heard the explosion. I also heard the second plane hit the other tower, and saw the flames. I was shooting som pix of the second tower burning, when thecollapsed--it looked like the scene in "The Mummy" when the sand storm is flying towards the camera.....surreal doesn't even begin to describe this.
Wanted to let you all know that I'm okay...the Fed is about 3-4 blocks from the Trade center. The buildings themselves are built are like dominoes stacked up, as the Trade Center sways about 1-2 feet each direction during high wind situations. As the floors burned, the structural integrity of the buildings weakened, and so the collapse......
Take care, and say a prayer for those people both in the planes and in the buildings...
Doc
Being retired USAF, the fateful words of Admiral Yamamoto come to my mind: "I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant." I can only hope the world's nations will be compassionate when we work to stop this threat. Off topic, I know. My apologies.
Again, best wishes to you all. Doc--hang in there.
From Oklahoma City....
Oreoke
Phases, remember the famous line from "All's Quiet on the Western Front". When asked the most important thing he had learned as a soldier, the old sergeant replied, "To keep my head down, Sir".
Way OT...My boss was in Iowa today and I was thinking how lucky she was to be out of Manhattan. When I called her cell phone, the recorded message said "Due to the tornado in the area, all phone service is disabled". What a day...U.S. Intelligence failed, airline security failed to protect the innocent. May a loving God comfort our nation. Amen.
Silver
fastdriver
I work at a major naval installation on the East Coast, and I have never seen the mobilization of security that I saw today, it was stunning and frightening.
I'm sure that these dreadful occurrences will touch us all in one way or another, some clearly far more severely than others.
However, let's not get into criticizing or supporting any country's policy issues here. There are places all over the web suitable for that kind of debate. Town Hall isn't one of them.
Thanks, I appreciate your understanding.
Let's just keep in our thoughts those who's lives have been horribly changed today and leave it at that.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
tom
My thoughts remain focused on those whose lives have been totally shattered today through no actions, political beliefs or military affiliations of their own.
To me there is no clearer definition of cowardice.
I'm glad you're ok Doc. I thought of you this morning know you were close to ground zero.
In a way I can't believe a thing like this could happen, but I think we've had every warning sign possible that an attack was an eventuality. However, no one could have predicted one such as we have witnessed today.
I'm so mad right now, if I could go get some of them bast%$%$%, then I would, but I'll leave that to those in charge. I know, in the end, justice will be served and the world will be at our side.
I'm gonna go donate some blood tomorrow. Everyone here please do so if you can.
I'm just speechless...
God bless America and her leaders.
Once more, Glen. Glad you came out OK.
Silver
The flights that were Highjacked were from United and AA, they were numbered as follows:
11, 93, 175, and 77
11 = Today's Date
9+3 = 12 = Tomorrow
1+7+5 = 13 = Thursday
7+7 = 14 = Friday
pray for everyone and please be safe wherever you are.
Today is US pride day. Everyone should wear US colors. Try to wear as much red, white and blue as you can. Let's get the whole country into it.
fastdriver
I drove yesterday afternoon all night, & got into NJ at 5am. My Aunt is OK. My other aunt works for the DEA, & I went to NY with her & a few of her workers. She was summond up there. That's how I got into NJ, & the city. I worked in Tower 2 a few years ago. Got the trains there all the time, Ate lunch in the court yard, Bought music in the Sam goody music store in the mall area. Just can't imagine that's it's all gone. I have some pictures I took, I'll try to upload them later. It's crazy man......Words just can't describe how things look down here. The building i'm in now, has broken windows, & pieces of the trade center on the roof. Running on generator power, police, fire fighters, rescue trucks, all over the place. One of my companys offices was in the trade center. One of our Data centers was there too. My job is shut down untill Friday & maybe Monday. There's this grey soot all over the place, & there's this taste of building dust in my mouth. It's just unreal!!!!!
I'll check in later.
Good therapy was to watch cartoons at breakfast this morning ith my five year old....
I don't think that I have ever felt so helpless....
Only today it is really sinking in that on live TV I saw thousands of people die..
Say a prayer...give some blood...make a donation to the Red Cross....go out and buy an American flag and hang it on you house....
Got my flag out, will donate to the Red Cross, and will donate blood tomorrow after the long lines are reduced.
Our office in Manhattan is closed the rest of the week. I'm sure one of my colleagues has a friend or relative that can use assistance, but no word yet.
Silver
Well, here's a bit of what it was like...the 'cloud' of smoke/debris you see on tv coming around a corner---I saw that from a window on the 8th floor of my building which faces Nassau Street (fuzzy, you know where that is...) It came boiling down Maiden Lane like a freight train, with a cloud of debris moving right ahead of it....
Hey everybody how areYOUSE doing.....I made it home in one piece--took me about 4 hours but was never more glad to get there! Here's what yesterday was like, in a nut shell....
special to fuzzywuzzy..know the plaza, man...now its like a butcher shop: dismembered corpses, blood everywhere....Maiden Lane iwas like a ghost town..so quiet, so eerie.....I'm home now, but the feeling of sadness hangs on me like a huge weight. YOU--more than anyone else perhaps here know HOW CLOSE I'm am to this carnage having woiked across da street from the Fed....
Tuesday morning was like every morning for me going to NYC....got into the Trade Center about 6:55am, and walked the 2-3 blocks to the bank. Went upstairs and checked email, then went down to the lobby of the building to get a cup of 'joe' and BS with a couple of friends outside the Bank. I heard a 'boom' and looked DOWN the street where a garbagse truck usually is as the bank is renovating floors and they normall throw big 'stuff' right in. Seeing no truck, I turned around looking WESt towards the trade center and saw smoke beginning to billow out from the windows--this was the FIRST tower to get hit. IMMEDIATELY, a cloud of debris began raining down on my friends and I--at this time there were very few people in the street. I went upstairs, and in stransit in the elevators, the second tower got it. A fellow staff member and I were shooting pix out the window from which we could see the towers burning. We closed the window, and at that time - I think - the first tower collapsed, send the cloud of smoke/soot/debris that you most likely saw on tv being replayed over, and over, and over..... so sad.... the exact timing of all this may be a bit off, as the events of yesterday are still a jumble in my head, so forgive any technical offsets in time, etc...
In 27 years over going to NYC, I've never seen anything like this, and I hope I never will. Monday morning, I overslept, and arrived late to work around 8:30am or so. I had gone directly to the downtown post office to buy stamps to send out some new membership packages.
When the second tower got hit and we heard the impact, I got the people together in my area, joined up with another area across a common hallway we share and got them started down the stairwells which run throught the core of the building, and down to the sublevels of the building. We wound up--oddly--right outsde the Bank's gold vault. At least it was cooler there ans its 60-70 feet below ground level.
I'm home now, as the Bank's First Vice President has told everyone to stay home today. There's a toll free number I have to call this evening to see what the story is for tomorrow, but since NYC--at least downtown NYC appears to be under martial law, and NO vehicles are allowed further south than 14ths street PLUS the subway trains aren't running thanks to water flooding resulting from the billions of gallons leaking into the subway system--I really don't think I'll be going to work tomorrow!
Thanks for your kind wishes, my friends, and maybe I'll see some of you in the chatroom tonight!
Shaken up Doc
Speaking for myself, when I had watched news broadcasts of terrorist attacks that were carried out thousands of miles from our shores, even those aimed at Americans, rightly or wrongly, I always felt a sense of security that I was somehow safe here. My family and friends could not be harmed. BUT, another day of infamy has shaken that belief.
My prayers and heartfelt condolences go out to all of those who were directly or indirectly affected by what could only be termed an act of war. My beliefs tell me that yes, there is a God, and ultimately, we must face Him for our actions. Though that may do little to console those devastated by these events, in my heart of hearts, I know justice will me meted out when that time comes.
May God bless America!!!
I am heartened by the reports of so many, many folks turning out to give blood. Of course this needs to continue for weeks, we can't all give now and not as the next few weeks go by. If you are thinking of giving blood at this point, check your local Red Cross - it might be better to wait until next week or the week after. I believe you can only give blood once every 56 days or so, so I think the Red Cross would appreciate our scheduling donations over a period of time.
I'm sure we've all had a huge lesson in how important it is tell our loved ones how we feel about them every chance we get. (Among other lessons, indeed.)
Speaking for myself, when I had watched news broadcasts of terrorist attacks that were carried out thousands of miles from our shores, even those aimed at Americans, rightly or wrongly, I always felt a sense of security that I was somehow safe here. My family and friends could not be harmed. BUT, another day of infamy has shaken that belief.
My prayers and heartfelt condolences go out to all of those who were directly or indirectly affected by what could only be termed an act of war. My beliefs tell me that yes, there is a God, and ultimately, we must face Him for our actions. Though that may do little to console those devastated by these events, in my heart of hearts, I know justice will me meted out when that time comes.
May God bless America!!!
Hit the buildings, Missed America . . . .
An open letter to a terrorist:
Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but you missed America. You hit the
Pentagon, but you missed America. You used helpless American bodies, to
take out other American bodies, but like a poor marksman, you STILL missed
America.
Why? Because of something you guys will never understand. America isn't
about a building or two, not about financial centers, not about military
centers, America isn't about a place, America isn't even about a bunch of
bodies. America is about an IDEA. An idea, that you can go someplace where
you can earn as much as you can figure out how to, live for the most part,
like you envisioned living, and pursue Happiness. (No guarantees that
you'll reach it, but you can sure try!)
Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine, and chant your terrorist litany:
"If you can not see my point, then feel my pain." This concept is alien to
Americans. We live in a country where we don't have to see your point. But
you're free to have one. We don't have to listen to your speech. But
you're free to say one. Don't know where you got the strange idea that
everyone has to agree with you. We don't agree with each other in this
country, almost as a matter of pride. We're a collection of guys that
don't agree, called States. We united our individual states to protect
ourselves from tyranny in the world. Another idea, we made up on the
spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when it's your country.
If you're free enough.
Yeah, we're fat, sloppy, easy-going goofs most of the time. That's an
unfortunate image to project to the world, but it comes of feeling free
and easy about the world you live in. It's unfortunate too, because
people start to forget that when you attack Americans, they tend to fight
like a cornered badger. The first we knew of the War of 1812, was when
England burned Washington D.C. to the ground. Didn't turn out like England
thought it was going to, and it's not going to turn out like you think,
either. Sorry, but you're not the first bully on our shores, just the most
recent.
No Marquis of Queensbury rules for Americans, either. We were the FIRST
and so far, only country in the world to use nuclear weapons in anger.
Horrific idea, nowadays? News for you bucko, it was back then too, but we
used it anyway. Only had two of them in the whole world and we used 'em
both. Grandpa Jones worked on the Manhattan Project. Told me once, that
right up until they threw the switch, the physicists were still arguing
over whether the Uranium alone would fission, or whether it would start a
fissioning chain reaction that would eat everything. But they threw the
switch anyway, because we had a War to win. Does that tell you something
about American Resolve?
So who just declared War on us? It would be nice to point to some real
estate, like the good old days. Unfortunately, we're probably at war with
random camps, in far-flung places. Who think they're safe. Just like the
Barbary Pirates did, IIRC. Better start sleeping with one eye open.
There's a spirit that tends to take over people who come to this country,
looking for opportunity, looking for liberty, looking for freedom. Even if
they misuse it. The Marielistas that Castro emptied out of his prisons,
were overjoyed to find out how much freedom there was. First thing they
did when they hit our shores, was run out and buy guns. The ones that
didn't end up dead, ended up in prisons. It was a big PITA then
(especially in south Florida), but you're only the newest PITA, not the
first.
You guys seem to be incapable of understanding that we don't live in
America, America lives in US! American Spirit is what it's called. And
killing a few thousand of us, or a few million of us, won't change it.
Most of the time, it's a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of Spirit. Until we're
crossed in a cowardly manner, then it becomes an entirely different kind
of Spirit.
Wait until you see what we do with that Spirit, this time.
Sleep tight, if you can. We're coming.
Take care and be very good to yourself.
To all of those with friends or relatives affected or involved... I cannot imagine your grief. I am glad to be very far away from it all. My prayers are with you.
Pat, thanks for letting another non-subject post appear.
Sincerely,
Rob (catguy)
For others of you that haven't made it home yet, best of luck to you, and Godspeed. Your families need you.
This is already affecting all our life styles. We all feel a deep hurt in our guts and crave a solution and an end to this terrorism. We no longer have the immediate need to discuss our cars as our minds are elsewhere. The planes are not flying, the sports teams are all idled, businesses are starting to feel the pain, and those unfortunate among us who have lost a friend, relative, co-worker or just an acquaintance are suffering more than others can comprehend.
But as Americans, we must unite and show our strengths. Life is for the living and we must work together to rebuild the freedoms that have been temporarily disrupted. We cannot let these terrorists change our lives. But we must find a way to rid this country of their infiltration into our former peaceful existence. Its time for this country to band together and fight these deviants and prevent any reoccurence of this nightmare.
Easyrider
Earlier today I was informed that my cousin's husband is missing. He wasn't supposed to go to work yesterday because he had to take my pregnant cousin to the doctor for a checkup. Since that was later in the day, he decided to go into work because he had a few things that he wanted to finish up. When tower 1 was struck, he called my cousin to tell her that there was something going on in tower 1 and that he was leaving to come home. That was the last she heard from him. Needless to say, our family is devastated.
I know that all my friends here will keep us in your prayers and thoughts. Thank you.
fastdriver
ft. campbell is unbelievable, surely nothing near as unbelievable as our hit areas, but still hectic. they search all vehicles that come on, it took me NINE hours to get to work yesterday. its NINE miles away. once you get on almost all sideroads are blocked off, theres razor wire everywhere, humvees with mounted weapons, soldiers guarding EVERYTHING. to get ANYWHERE u have to show your id cards to every guard you get too. i just got off a guard shift.. noone knows what to really think..
ft. campbell is a rapid deployment base, which means we'll more than likely be the first out there in the army branch. my brigade is in DRB1, which means we'll be the first brigade to go anywhere, and my platoon is in DRF1 which means we'll be the first task force of the brigade to go. while i personally dont think we'll go anywhere any time soon due to evertying considered before war is declared, many have a completely different opinion, MANY, off all ranks. Noone really knows anything right now, well, nothing we're allowed to share with the public anyway...
im off to bed, i SHOULD be in sometime tomorrow with a few more hours to spare, but who knows...
p.s. im sorry to everyone here that lives in those areas, anyone how could have lost someone dear to them there, just have faith that we will handle the situation in the best possible way, goodnight all and good luck.
phases
p.p.s. sorry pat, im rarely on due to all this, so please post this as its my only chance to update till, well, i dont know when.
when you say stuff like that, you just sunk to that level of scum that the ppl who commit these acts are at. they think of americans as, well i don't wanna say...but just as you call them names, they call you names. dont go to that level. no matter how objective you get. all leads point to a muslim doing this...but take this from me...i will show you it written in the quran..suicide = direct ticket to hell. its written in the quran that if there are 7 ppl holding knifes to your head and they tell you to commit suicide. doing so will lead you to hellfire.
direct quote from the quran:
"Killing one innocent man, is equivalent of killing the entire race." take it from a muslim you all know and talk to everyday, me, that if you think for one second this was done in the name of islam, you are terribly wrong. i was administered 6 stitches today on the back of my head, by my own sister, someone told me "you have done enough get the hell outta here."
my heart just melted as i turned around and walked away, only to be knocked down once more by a stone. my life will never be the same, but you all know me, so do you see me as a raghead?
i have tears coming down my face right now. i'm sitting here thinking of what my life is gonna be like, because acts of ppl that are so demented, and yet i am placed as one of them.
I'm so sorry you had to become a victim of displaced hate and anger. I hope you are ok. People can be cruel, don't take it personally. Unfortunately, many people are programmed to cast blame on races or religions, when it should be directed at individuals. This is racism at it's worst. This is exactly why america was attacked.
Keep your head up as you are an american. I conmend your willingness to go there and help others in need.
Stay safe. You're in our thoughts and prayers.
avalanche165-
I'm very saddened to read your message. Please know that not everyone shares that view. You cannot blame a whole race for the actions of a few. I was not raised to view people by color, race, nationality, religion etc. I was raised to deal with people as PEOPLE!
No further word on my cousin's husband.
fastdriver
PS- I'm STILL reading the hundreds of messages that I missed while I was in FL last month. You guys write a lot. ;-)
If we want to mention our anger specifically at the criminal terrorists who perpetrated these horrendous acts, that is okay. However, we must remember that some number of individuals are responsible. To say anything that paints any ethnic or religious group with the same brush as these criminals is patently wrong and will not be tolerated in posts here.
As avalanche so eloquently points out, the group or groups that some folks want to blame have been affected just as severely as everyone else who has been touched in any way by these terrible events.
We can talk about our sadness for the victims and their families, and our sadness for each other and ourselves. We can share our personal experiences of Tuesday as well as our concern for those missing.
We can not and will not go into an intense political debate here, however. There are places all over the internet that are appropriate forums for that -- Town Hall isn't one of them. I'm sure you understand.
To avalanche and everyone else offended by some of the terminology used in a couple of recent messages here, I apologize - I apologize for Town Hall, for your friends here in this discussion, and I personally apologize. I have removed those messages - please let me know if I've missed anything else offensive.
Town Hall is a wide and varied community of wonderful folks of all sorts of backgrounds, nationalities, religions, lifestyles and beliefs. Let us remember that this is a public board, our purpose is to discuss vehicles and everyone reading our comments has feelings, too.
We probably really need to try to get back to talking about cars as we are able to do so.
Thanks - I appreciate everyone's understanding.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Forrest
This, from a Canadian newspaper, no less, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian
television commentator. What is the full text of his trenchant remarks as
printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about
American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several
times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both
are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."
Yesterday I saw a person lashing out at arabs working at the Hertz lot in San Jose. Myself and two others grabbed him told him to shut-up and get the hell out. The ignorance of some amazes me.
Doc: I came here today to see if you were okay! I sure am glad you are! I've been to the World Trade center area about seven years ago. Once there, we took the Staten Island fairy just to get a look at the NYC skyline from the harbar. It's WAS a powerful site! It is a sad time in American history!
Osman: America is a country bascily made up of immigrants! Unless one is a Native American(AKA, American Indian) or of Mexican decent here in the Southwest(AZ, Texas, CA, New Mexico) were this land use to be known as "Azlan", everyone else is a immigrant here! Osman, do not let people make you feel anyless of a American because you are a Muslim! 99% of the people here are foreigners! I am too sadden that idiots would throw stones at you! The ugly American is alive and all too well in the USA.
The act of a few, does not reflect the view of the whole community!