Which Hatchback?

204meca · April 2005

After reading the small car & hatchback related boards for months, the Focus ZX5 looked like the best contender to replace my 92 Civic Si on the basis of a good combo of performance, economy, handling and comfort. I was in SoCal for a week & rented a ZX5 SES from Budget.

LIKES: Handled very nicely while maintaining a comfortable ride, functional 5 door set up with plenty of room in hatch with seats up, plenty of usable cubbies/spaces in front, nice, well placed, functional armrest, basic controls easy to decipher, especially the stereo (handy steering wheel controls) /AC. A small thing I especially appreciated was the automatic volume control of the stereo, seems to be a Ford specialty that should be emulated by other makers. AT is smooth, responsive, low revs on highway. Height adjustable front seat (though awkward mechanism). NIce combo of standard features (PW, PL, PM, remote

NEUTRAL: Power with AT adequate, not exhilarating, I liked the exterior look, wife does not, highway noise par or slightly better for class as is equipment.

DISLIKES:Gas mileage less than 30 mpg with mixed, conservative driving. Both my wife & I found seats comfortable initially, but that was short lived - after about 1/2 hour started to notice a lack of lower back support.

BOTTOM LINE: Nice car over all, lack of lumbar support in seats is a deal killer.

What I Really Want: a hatchback (prefer 4 doors) under $17K, 30+ city mileage, 38+ highway; both front seats height adjustable with good lumbar support (especially important for my wife), adjustable arm rest, decent cornering and relatively smooth quiet ride, readable, straight forward stereo & heater controls, basic luxuries of PW, PL, PM, AC, sunroof, ABS, SAB. The two main contenders now are used 2002-2004 GTi (class act of bunch, I assume it do as well or better that the amazinging gas mileage of our A4 w CVT), Spectra5 (quite nice, but gas mileage falls short - I look forward to what the Edmunds long term test results), Mazda3 (stereo controls & HAV control are small and confusing), or Honda Jazz if they bring it to USA. Looks like I will continue to ready what y'all have to say on Edmunds and keep on slumming around in the ol' Civic w 169K. It lacks the comfort and convenience of all the above cars, but it still gets 33+ mpg in mixed driving, has a certain verve and has the proverbial old shoe feeling.

RENTAL CAR NOTE -- BEWARE OF USED RENTAL CARS - maintainace may be poor: I spotted the ZX5 on the lot and asked specifically for it. The agent asked how many miles I expected to drive. When I said:" less than 500 he indiciated that it was due for an oil change, but since I wasn't going far, he rented it to me. I inquired how often they change the oil -- normally at 5,000. However, this rig had 8,100 and the oil had yet to be changed and was just above the add mark.

millerjq · April 2005

I have decided to purchase a hatchback after seeing their true functionality while on study abroad in Europe. (They have the Hatchbacks down to an Art.) I have driven several on the market and now cannot make up my mind between the Vibe and the Mazda 3 Hatchback. Knowing the Vibe is built on a Toyota base is very reassuring. I think this would hold the test of time... or at least with stand my driving. (I drove a Nissan Sentra for 11 years and drove it like a truck!) Still the Vibe lacks good looks (did not see arm rests on the back doors) and power. The Mazda Hatchback though very good looking is small in cargo room and has little ground clearance (harsh driver.) They give no incentives for purchasing and cost a little more. I am not familiar with Mazda's reputation on durability. Trucks and SUVs are out of the question.

Can anyone voice their opinions on the two cars. If you have one... please express any concerns or how you feel it may suit this Student in HUMID South Florida!

nippononly · April 2005

and OWNED a Matrix (vibe in all but name and face) for a while. Go with Matrix if you are sure you need the space (which is much better in the rear seat and for cargo with seats up or down), otherwise go with Mazda for the drive. And yes the Mazda is a bit harsh and noisy, but it pays you back in driving response.

The Matrix combines the best of both in the XRS (Vibe GT), but that is $20K, and you have to keep the engine revving. The Matrix base and XR (regular Vibe) are too softly sprung and too lightly-steered to be a true driver's car.

backy · April 2005

You may have to moderate your requirements a bit. There are no cars I know of that meet all of them, particularly both front seats being height-adjustable (maybe the GTi has that, but none of the others you mention do). Also adjustable arm rests are pretty few and far between. You'll have trouble finding a new Mazda3s hatchback with all the equipment you want under $17k, and it likely won't hit your mpg target. You can get everything but the passenger-side seat-height adjuster and adjustable arm rest on the Elantra GLS 5-door for about $13.5k; if you drive conservatively you can achieve 30+ mpg around town and 40+ mpg on the highway with the 5-speed (I know it because I do it on a '01 GLS that doesn't have the CVVT engine of the new Elantras). The Spectra5 should do about as well with mpg (same engine as the Elantra), but I can't say for sure because I've never owned one and it may have different gearing.

autonomous · April 2005

Backy appears to be right that You may have to moderate your requirements a bit. There are no cars I know of that meet all of them. According to the 2005 Annual Auto issue of Consumer Reports the Mazda 3 manual transmission (30) beats the Spectra (28) and Matrix (24) in their overall fuel economy tests; the numbers for the Golf seem to be missing. The Mazda 3 was rated top vehicle until the Insurance Institute flunked the model tested because it lacked side air bags; the option for SAB is available so in theory that should restore it to the top of the heap next time. Your wife is not the only one who would like a passenger seat that is height adjustable with good lumbar support, mine does, too.

adp3 · April 2005

Remember that "height adjustable" comes in different flavors. I hate those systems that require you to twist a big fat knob. I bet half the poplulation can't twist that knob. I need the electric controls. And you ain't gonna get that in a 17k hatchback.

204meca · April 2005

Backy: I actually owned a 2002 El GT & it meet 90=% of my wants including the mileage requirement (used GTi was only one that met them all, but it was $4K more & I was still leary of the VW reliability & gas mileage). I really was quite pleased with the Elantra & the only requirement it failed was my wife's back requirement. Thus it was for sale when my newly-wed son & wife announced they were going to grad school in Wash DC, I gave to them as a wedding present as I knew they would need a versatile, reliable economical car so I gave him the El GT & repoed my old Civic Si. The Hyundia 10 warranty remains intact as it is still owned by a family member.

We can still manage the knob twist or pump-up set height adjustment, but you can't beat the electric ones that our A4 has -- especially the 4 way power lumber support -- that is totally sweet & practically makes the seat. Should be standard in all cars

I am hoping that maybe the MB Smart or Honda Jazz may be available in the US within the next year as they look like they might fill the bill.

backy · April 2005

Well, the Jazz won't have a height-adjustable passenger seat and it will be lucky if it has a height-adjustable driver's seat--but you can hope.

Ever see those lumbar cushions for cars? Maybe that would help your wife.

For what I paid for my Elantras, I don't mind at all twisting a knob or two. I find those adjusters much superior to the single levers that adjust in only one arc, or the stupid cranks on the front edge of the seat on cars like the Focus.

kurtamaxxguy · April 2005

I'm curious as to why Americans hate hatchbacks so much.

Example:
VW's Golf outsells their "Bora" sedan offspring everywhere else but here. OF course in the USA, that sedan (called Jetta here) outsells the Golf so much that VW has brought the newest Jetta in for '05 while waiting for '06 to bring in the new Golf.

Is it just styling? Security? any thoughts?

As for me, I drive a Mailbu Maxx. Found it way more flexible and roomier than the Sedan for not much more money.

npaladin2000 · April 2005

Actually, we love hatchbacks. But only if they have big tires and are referred to as "SUVs".

Then again, maybe it's because Americans realize the rest of the world loves hatchbacks, but doesn't like us, so we be different just to spite the rest of the world?

Or bad memories from the old 70s and 80s rickety creaky hatchbacks (forget the fact that sedans were like that too back then).

Possibly the most likely explanation are that hatches are seen as "cheap" here (Even a Mercedes hatch? wierd, but a hatch IS usually a bit cheaper than a comparably equipped SUV) and no one wants to look cheap to everyone else (they'd rather look inefficient: 'Yeah, I paid a grand more for the name "SUV!"'). Used to be that hatches were only sold in pretty low-end trims here in the states. The newer ones are selling better because they're higher trims. In the case of the Mazda3 (and before that the Protege) and Kia Spectra, the hatch trim is the highest trim available, and ONLY available in that trim. Up until recently, the Hyundai Elantra's highest trim was only available in hatch format..they only recently added the hatch in GLS trim (it'd be interesting to see hatch:sedan sales ratios). This is definitely helping things along...hatches are starting to become acceptable again, since it's a very visible sign of privledge ("Hey, it's the most badda-boom trim of the entire line! And everyone can see it because it looks so different from the sedans that all those other people have! So everyone can stare in envy!").

Something like that.

Sylvia · April 2005

I'm a big hatchback and wagon fan...less gas than an SUV and easier to park. I think hatchbacks got a bad reputation from the Pinto, Escort and a few other "less sporty" or "stylish" hatchbacks.

More of the hatches are being marketed as "sportbacks" which I think will draw new people into the hatchback arena, especially with gas prices going to the moon.

csandste · April 2005

St. Louis-Kansas City with some urban driving--pretty good for a 3.5 liter 6. Can't do that with an SUV. Last week I was hauling a lawn mower around... we need more mid-size wagons and hatches... Chevy Suburu and Mazda-- not enough. What happened to the Cam-Cord wagons of a decade ago.... Oh, I know--- didn't sell... Too bad, both were nicer looking than the sedans they were based on.

npaladin2000 · April 2005

Actually, the Escort was fairly decent (it was originally Mazda designed after all). The old Toyota and Honda hatches from the 70s and early 80s sucked though. And no, the Pinto didn't help at all

gagrice · April 2005

I like the concept of a hatchback. The Maxx is one of the better looking ones. Most have big blind spots, which is my complaint. I like a wagon much better for visibility. Most of the Asian SUV/CUVs have terrible blind spots. Just poor design work. If MB would bring the E320 CDI Wagon to the USA I would buy one.

Sylvia · April 2005

I had a Ford Escort. It was marginally decent, but definitely not stylish.

radar1 · May 2005

I had a Ford Escort that I really liked, except that I couldn't get any large items in it (like a 27" TV. It was too big to fit in the trunk, and too wide to fit through the back doors,,even though there was plenty of room inside the car if I could have got it in there.
I love hatchbacks, and now have a 2004 Focus ZX5 which did carry a new 27" TV from the store just last month. I like hatchbacks, because they are so practical and able to carry larger bulky items than sedans.
The 2.3 Focus is very sporty, and I have more fun driving it than my Dakota 4.7, and the fuel bills are much, much lower, although I haven't exceeded 30 MPG in the Focus (automatic) yet, compared to an average 37 in my old Escort (stick shift).
I really preferred the Focus wagon, but my wife (this is her primary car) preferred the looks and styling of the ZX5, which is fine with me, because it still has good utility value compared to the sedan.

Hankr · May 2005

After 2 years, I'm very very happy with my Suzuki Aerio SX (hatch/wagon) for its excellent combination of utility, comfort, features, safety, warranty, low-price and (so far) reliability.

This car is often overlooked and should not be.

madmadam · May 2005

I looked at several hatchbacks, and I liked quite a few. I bought the Malibu Maxx and it has been a great choice. It has many great features for the driver and lots of interior room for the passengers, including adjustable rear seats (they move 7 inches). The cargo area is large and the cover is hard and can be placed on 3 levels and reversed (a carpet side and a plastic side for wet or dirty cargo).
Most importantly, it has a longer wheel base for a very smooth ride, and the 6 cylinder engine provides plenty of zip. Anti-lock brakes are standard.
It handles very well, gets good mileage on highway driving and the price is very appealing. The MAXX gives you alot of car for the money.

nippononly · May 2005

not to mention having a fairly awesome stock stereo, and OnStar, right? The Maxx is a good deal for a larger V-6 powered hatch. The rear seat is truly commodious with the reclining feature.

carquery · June 2005

Hi,

I'm looking to trade-in my mid-sized SUV since I find I'm using it 85% of the time in city driving and the mileage (15-16mpg with premium) is a major bummer. However, I do like the spaciousness of the cabin and the roominess in the back seat, which makes a big difference with two car seats in the back. My wife's Outback Legacy feels very cramped with the car seats and is really too small for me in the front (I'm just about 6'0"). I thought about the Scion Xb, Honda Element but have safety concerns with all of those. Can anybody recommend a roomy hatchback that gets good mileage (24+ in the city) that also has good safety features. It doesn't need a lot of trunk space, just enough to tool around town with the kids.

Any idea would be most welcome.

Thanks!

csandste · June 2005

Bought a Malibu Maxx last February and like it more and more. Gets mid twenties in mostly city driving, about 30 mpg on the road. TONS of space and flexibility. Looked carefully at the Scion Xb-- lots of space but far too noisy. At 70 it was turning 3500 rpm with manual tranny, about 75% more than my Maxx at the same speed. That kind of racket would have gotten on my nerves.

At $16K the Maxx has a ton of standard features. It took about a month to get used to the size after moving up from an Elantra but the move was worth it. Not a big automatic transmission fan but I'm getting used to it. The ohv engine might be considered low tech but the torque is nicely matched to the transmission and the mpg is top of the class for a car this size, plus it's nice not to have to spend $700 for timing belts at 60K like I did with the Elantra.

Lots of people complain about Chevy dealers but I've never had a problem. At least in St. Louis they're a lot lower key than the local Hyundai or Toyota/Scion dealers.

smalltown · June 2005

I bought a Kia Spectra5 end of April and have been very satisfied. Most of the time, it is just me. I can put my bike in the back, or our three dogs. When I helped my son move back from college, his TV and computer went in with no trouble. It gets good mileage and drives well. I like it better than the Matrix/Vibe. The Spectra5 has tons of safety features. What will really come in handy in the winter is heated outside mirrors. I have that in my Hyundai Accent. My son is getting my Hyundai hatchback which is three years old. For utility, it is great. When he bought a TV, he had to unbox it in the parking lot to get it into his sedan that he drove before. A couple of weeks ago on a weekend trip with three people and luggage, the Spectra5 had more than enough power going around Minneapolis/St. Paul on the interstates.

jvenezia · June 2005

Well, we just put our new 05 Elantra GLS hatchback to the test. With three adults and one teenager in it, we drove 1,060 miles from Michigan's Thumb area up to the Upper Peninsula for a week-long vacation. We drove on everything from interstate highways to small dirt roads, in beautiful 80-degree sunny weather to driving rainstorms. Here's my review of the car during the trip:

1) The utility factor of the car was outstanding. I took out the cargo area cover and during the trip the car was loaded with two large suitcases, a medium suitcase, a large sport duffle bag, small shoulder bag, professional camera bag, professional camera tripod, a small cargo tote for roadside emergency items, jackets, hats, and miscellaneous bags of souvenirs, snacks, drinks, and assorted "trip stuff". It all fit with a little room to spare, and without piling everything up to the point where the view out the rear window was blocked in any way. In all, we had nearly 100 pounds of luggage in the back.

2) The comfort factor was OK. For most of the trip, the teen sat in the front passenger seat while two adults (both women) sat in the rear. There were nothing but compliments about the rear seat legroom. The big minus for comfort was the car's sport suspension. It was definitely stiff and we felt every little road imperfection, especially at 75 or 80 MPH on the interstate.

In defense of the Elantra's so-so comfort rating...I replaced the softer OEM Michelin tires (which had the flimsiest sidewalls I've ever seen) with BF Goodrich's Traction TA-H tires as soon as I bought the car to improve its ability to drive in any kind of weather. The Goodrich tires have a very stiff sidewall. In fact, it was quite an effort to have them installed on the car's wheels, taking two people to do so. While improving the car's handling and all-weather ability by 1000 percent over the very sloppy Michelins, they do stiffen up the ride. Also, the car was loaded down a lot, with the back end squatting just past horizontal, and that didn't help either. On the other hand, we were actually grateful for the beefier GLS/GT hatchback suspension because it allowed us to carry so much.

3) The reliability factor was excellent. Throughout the high heat (80-90 degree temps) with the air conditioner running full-time, sometimes rough roads, heavy load, and my driving, the car didn't have a single squeak, rattle, hiccup, or complaint. It just kept going. The car is pretty new and still on its first oil. It just went over 6,000 miles and I'm about to put some full synthetic oil in it now that it's broken in.

4) The fun-to-drive factor was excellent. The U.P. has some very curvy, nicely paved roads through heavy woods (Michigan Highway 123, to be exact) and it was all I could do to not scare the cr_p out of my passengers by taking the curves at a pretty good clip. Even loaded down, the car's handling was phenomenal. Of course, the replacement tires helped a lot. The Michelins would have been complaining too much (French whines!). Even on dirt roads around some of the small lakes in the St. Ignace area, the car behaved very well.

5) The economy factor was pretty good. I'd been getting about 27 MPG overall before the trip (30% city, 70% highway), with just myself in the car (which, by the way is technically my wife's). Loaded down with an extra 550 or so pounds with the air conditioner running nearly full time throughout the trip, we achieved about 24 MPG. If I remember right, we only filled up about four times during the trip, and we wound up with 3/4 of a tank still when we were done. Not bad. We're very satisfied with fuel economy.

6) The "sociability" factor was excellent. Hyundais are extremely popular up in the U.P., with the Sonata and Santa Fe being the most prevalent. We blended right in.

7) GLS vs. GT hatchback? We were very glad to have a GLS, since hot leather seats would have been very uncomfortable for us in those weather conditions. The suspension is the same between them, so practically speaking, we got the best bargain with the GLS and we're glad we didn't go with the GT.

:shades:
Great car! Nuff said.

Sylvia · June 2005

Great write-up! Yes, the U.P. is great and I'm sure the Elantra handled great across the Mighty Mac bridge. If you didn't stop at the Keyhole in Mackinaw City for a burger, you missed out.

autonomous · June 2005

If you didn't stop at the Keyhole in Mackinaw City for a burger, you missed out.
It sounds like you've got the beginnings of another great forum: Must see attractions across North America! It would be a great vacation planner.

doohickie · July 2005

Hi, I'm Doohickie, and I'm looking for a hatchback.

Here is where I'm at: In August, my wife starts her teaching job. At that point, I will put my daily commuter, a 95 Ford Aspire with 115k miles, up for sale and be looking to replace it. Looking to spend about $14-18k on a car that I will likely drive myself for about 5 years, then turn over to my younger son who's just starting high school this year to use when he is away at college (figuring no car for him freshman year of college). Hope to get about 10 years out of the car in total.

Must have: Automatic (Mrs. Doohickie doesn't drive stick, which was a problem at times with the Aspire), Hatchback, A/C, Cruise, Pwr Windows/Locks, Keyless Entry, Rear Wiper & Defogger, must make 30+ mpg freeway.
Highly desireable but not show stoppers include: 6-disc CD Changer, Intermittent Wipers, Antilock Brakes, makes high 20's or better mpg in the city.
Nice to have: Leather, Side Airbags

I had a list of about 30 models and narrowed down to these finalists: Scion xA & xB, Hyundai Elantra 5 dr, Kia Spectra5, Suzuki Reno & Aerio SX, Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix, and Ford Focus ZX3.

I started posting around here looking for insights into the different models. I was geeked up by the Spectra5 and Elantra owners who indicated these were good cars. Test drove both yesterday and was sorely disappointed with both. Interior design and quality of materials was substandard, acceleration was poor on both, and both had a shimmy at 70 mph, and rolled quite a bit in turns. Two peas in a pod. Since it will be a while since I buy, I may revisit them, though; the value in terms of money up front is tempting.

The Focus drives like a Ford. This isn't all bad, since I've had an Escort Wagon for 10 years (the car my older son now drives) and am used to it. My Escort with 110k miles has a better ride and better acceleration than either of the Korean cars I drove today.

I've also driven the xA. I will readily admit it is underpowered, but was impressed by the build quality and the way they got the most out of the little engine. I think the B in xB stands for Butt-ugly. Seriously. But after driving the Elantra, I went over to the Toyota dealer with my younger son (who may get this purchase as his college car) and he immediately fell in love with the xB. Although it is butt-ugly on the outside, it's beautiful from the driver's seat (both my sons and myself are 6'-2" or taller). I may drive it soon.

I love the configuration of the Aerio SX wagon (especially the interior), but am worried about Suzuki reliability over the long haul. I plan to check it out, as well as the Reno; if they don't ride well I'll cross them off my list. I have yet to really check out the Matrix/Vibe.

Any advice about these cars? Are there others I should consider (Mazda3 5-door is too pricey for what you get in my opinion). What should I look for?

doohickie · July 2005

doohickie · July 2005

"I love the configuration of the Aerio SX wagon (especially the interior), but am worried about Suzuki reliability over the long haul. I plan to check it out, as well as the Reno; if they don't ride well I'll cross them off my list."

So I drove the Suzukis today so I could "cross them off my list." Maybe it was because I had low expectations, but I really liked both cars, probably the best balance of handling, power, sound system, and quality of materials & finish of any cars I've driven yet (including Focus, Scion xA, Elantra & Spectra).

I drove the Reno first. My first impression of the car's interior is that of an upscale sedan (it is a close cousin to the Forenza, and maybe they didn't bother to "cheap it out" for the hatchback version?) Nice carpets, gray seats with black patterned seating areas, very clean dash and instruments. I got behind the wheel, pulled to the edge of the parking lot, hit the gas, and WOW. It's no muscle car, but after the anemic Spectra and Elantra, it's 2.0L had very nice torque off the line. It shifted very deliberately but smoothly, pretty much at the points I would shift if I were driving a manual. Sure, it leaned a little in turns, but it always felt predictable and in control. At speeds up to 80 mph, it was rock-solid (didn't go faster than that). It has a sunroof which didn't noticeably cut into my headroom. My overall impression of this car was that of a very upscale car.

The Aerio has a whole different flavor. With a 2.3L, 155 hp engine, there is more power for about the same weight. The reviews pointed out that the Aerio has problems with engine and wind noise; I could hear that. The engine was worst when negotiating parking lots... at low rpms, the vibration got into the cabin more. On the road this was much less noticeable. On the freeway, though, there was a constant, smooth "whoosh". Most cars I've driven with wind noise problems sound more turbulent; apparently the flow over the Aerio is very smooth. It leaned when challenging corners, but the handling was just what I would expect of a car with a high aspect. And without even trying too hard, I found myself at 85 mph. The only clue was the wind whoosh. The interior isn't as upscale as the Reno, but apparently the dash is new for this year and was very straightforward. The fabric on the seats looked like it might not be the most durable, though. But this car has lots and lots of head room and storage space.

The road feel was more pronounced (both in a good and bad way) in the Aerio than the Reno. At least in both cars, you felt connected to the road. The Hyundai and Kia felt more like cats trying to cross a stream without getting their paws wet. The stereos were far superior than in the Elantra and Spectra as well. The Reno's single disc CD-Radio was more than competent. It didn't have a boomy sound at all. The Aerio's sound system included a 6-disc changer and a subwoofer, which provided excellent sound without being too boomy.

smith20 · July 2005

That's great. I think it's always better to choose from a set of many desirable options. Probably you would be very satisfied buying any one of a couple different cars on your list. Sounds to me like the three best hatchbacks for you are either the Focus, Aerio, or xB. That's just my impression from your description of your experiences with the cars. I don't think the Hyundai or the Kia is going to cut it for you. Maybe another test drive of just those three cars in one day would help you (and your son if this might end up being a car for him to drive) decide.

backy · July 2005

I am really surprised you got such poor acceleration on the Elantra and Spectra. They have more power than the Reno and pretty good torque for a 2.0L engine. One thing about the Elantra/Spectra is that they have "learning" automatics. Drive them leisurely, they will shift leisurely. Push them to the floor, they will shift more aggressively. But it takes awhile for them to "learn" your driving style. If your test drive was short, you might want to take them for a longer drive until they learn your style.

Personally I found the Reno's/Forenza's powertrain (with manual) to be rough and rubbery (shifter). But maybe the automatic masks the roughness of the engine. I liked the interior of those cars though--I think it's perhaps the best in the low-end class, with the Reno having an edge on the Forenza (did you notice a resemblence between the Reno's dash and that of the new M-B SUV?).

doohickie · July 2005

Well, I've never been in an M-B SUV, so... no I didn't see the resemblance. The two things that seemed undesirable to me with regards to the Kia and Hyundai were... it just seemed that both had more lag than I was expecting from a dead stop. With the Kia, I saw this when making a left turn with oncoming traffic. I knew it wasn't that close, but it just seemed to take forever before the rpms kicked up high enough for the acceleration to kick it. The other thing was that when the engines on both those cars revved, the noise sounded pretty harsh in the cabin.

The Reno, on the other hand, has better torque from a dead stop... the engine tugs you off the line. And maybe because of sound insulation or something, but when the Reno's engine revved, it sounded more like a purr than a desperate scream. To be honest, I was greatly shocked at how nice a ride the Reno had. Since everyone prefers different ride qualities, it's hard to quantify that in an analysis; it's one of those intangibles. Is it enough to make up for the mediocre gas mileage and the uncertain reliability of the Reno? Not sure.

The Aerio is admittedly much less refined. But I think it reminds me of my current Ford Aspire- kind of like an overgrown go-cart. I didn't expect refinement and didn't get it. But what what I did get, I got so enthusiastically that I didn't mind the rough edges. The Aerio doesn't try to be something it's not.

Since I'm not quite ready to buy, I probably need to finish my initial test drives (the xB is the only thing on my list I haven't driven yet) and sleep on it for a while. I can come back in a month or two and look at the field again with fresh eyes. If there are some little model year changes and I go with a 2006, things could be incrementally better. I may even look at the new Rio & Accent; the new Rio hatch looks kind of interesting.

And backy- despite our differing opinions of Hyundais, I appreciate your insight. As a repeat owner, you know your stuff. If there is a "learning curve" on the Hyundai tranny, I probably need to drive it a bit more before passing judgment.

As a 40-something guy sending kids off to college, a lot of the cars I'm testing seem more suited to my sons than to me. But the Reno had just the right amount of playfulness, utility and refinement for my personality. I drove it just to cross it off my list, and the test drive shot it up to the top of the list instead. Weird, huh?

gagrice · July 2005

With the current incentives on Chevy Malibu Maxx you can probably get a very nicely equipped Maxx in your price range. They are a great hatchback. With your desired options they are going for $18,800 here in San Diego. May be less in other areas. Check the GM buyer link here on Edmund's. Oh and they get real good mileage also.

cti · July 2005

I own a Mazda3 5-door and I (obviously) found it to be a better car than the other hatchbacks I looked at, including some that you are looking at.

The biggest difference I found is the Mazda has vastly superior handling and breaking and a more powerful engine. If those things matter to you, the 3 is your car. The other hatchbacks you mentioned don't even come close.

But if you are more interested in utility than your choices are the way to go. I priced out a ZX3 (why are you not looking for a ZX5?) and found that the SES model has all your minimums as standard features. I remember looking for ZX5s a while back and having a very difficult time finding one with lots of options like sunroof, ABS, or leather. The stereo upgrade was easy to find, though.

As far as style goes, I liked the previous generation Focus. Much more European looking. In fact, after visiting Ireland last year the Focus seemed to fit in very well with all the other hatchbacks I saw. Still, I like the current version better than the Aerio which looks like the wheels are too small.

doohickie · July 2005

If I had a Maxx, I'd shave its butt and make it drive backwards. That is one UGLY car.

doohickie · July 2005

Mazda3 5-door is more than I want to pay for what you get.

gagrice · July 2005

Other than the Elantra, hatchbacks are kind of ugly critters. Funny, I have not driven the Maxx, I just see them all the time and thought if I got stuck with a hatchback that one I might be able to live with. I would buy a Golf TDI, my wife thinks it is UGLY. All in the eye of the beholder.

And welcome to the forum. I hope you find the car of your dreams...

PS
The Golf TDI gets an Honest 45-50 MPG and handles more like a sports car than any of the others you have test driven.

npaladin2000 · July 2005

Have you considered the current Accent 2 door hatch? And by the time your build date comes around, the Kia Rio5 should be available.

Honestly, if the Mazda3 is too expensive for you, that seriously limits your options. The ZX3 and ZX5 are worth looking into, and possibly Dodge's upcoming Neon-replacement, which is supposed to be a hatch, but all of these have smaller, less powerful engines than the 3. The Spectra should be a major option, but apparently it didn't sit well (I dunno why; they're pretty sweet looking) and again, as you've noticed, it's less powerful, and has a softer suspension. Sounds like you liked the Aerio and Reno, so I guess you could go for one, but I just don't trust Suzuki/Daewoo (The aerio is built by Suzuki, but the Reno is a Daewoo product).

Hatchbacks aren't cheap anymore. as I'm sure you've noticed; if they're only available in 1 trim in a model line, it's usually the HIGHEST trim, not the lowest. I spent the money on the Mazda3 and have never been happier with a car in 15 years of driving. It's powerful, comfortable, well-built, reliable, and I love the looks I get (it's red, bwa ha).

I ended up jumping through a few financial hoops to get that 3 I wanted it so bad. You should look into it again...your offspring will appreciate it, I think (MUCH more "cool factor" for a future college car).

However, now is a bad time to try to buy a mazda3...they're going to be in pretty short supply until October

smith20 · July 2005

Honestly, if the Mazda3 is too expensive for you, that seriously limits your options.

Right, it limits the options by one by not having the Mazda3 on the list. I don't think the problem was paying for it period, it was the cost to benefit ratio wasn't satisfactory for him. The couple thousand dollar premium to get that car isn't worth it for everyone and I think Doohickie already stated that was the case for him.

csandste · July 2005

I looked at each of the cars you're referring to:

1. xB-- Lots of space-- TOO NOISY with a 5 speed (running 3500 rpm @ 70--- ouch).
2. Forenza wagon (heavier than Reno) but was pretty sluggish--at least with an auto.
3. Had an Elantra 4 door which I loved, but I didn't love the dealer.
4. Spectra5-- First crash tests worse than Elantra. Fixed some of this, but not before I was ready to buy.
5. Mazda3-Mazda6-- Liked both of them.
6. Aerio SX-- Really liked this and came close to buying. 05 interior has gone from goofy to sublime-- however most of Suzuki's sales increase is because of the Daewoos-- the Aerio is selling at such a low rate that I'm afraid. Plus the local dealer is the same one as the Hyundai--not good.

I bought a Maxx SX and it's an entirely different class of car (except for the Mazda6). Tremendous flexibility, great gas mileage for the size of the car, torquey engine and I don't have to spend $700 for a new timing belt (and other stuff) like I did with the Elantra. Although people sometimes complain about Chevy dealers, my experience has been more positive than the typical import.

I paid $16,000 in February, that's without a GM card discount. Should be able to do at least as well with the new cuts.

autonomous · July 2005

You may want to check out your local public library for the April 2005 annual auto issue of Consumer Reports. Since you plan to keep your car for 10 years, reliability is obviously key. CR rates the xA and xB highly, not surprising as they are Toyota products.

I agree with npaladin2000 and cti that you should take the Mazda3 for a spin just to compare with your other options. CR rates the Mazda3 automatic just under the FocusZX4 SES. Mazda3 tops CR's list of small cars with manual transmissions.

gagrice · July 2005

CR rates the xA and xB highly

How can they have a high reliability rating when they came out in MY 2004? I would think reliability surveys would come after the vehicle is at least 3 years old. Plus they have very poor emissions compared to the GM & Hyundai offerings.

doohickie · July 2005

Have you considered the current Accent 2 door hatch? And by the time your build date comes around, the Kia Rio5 should be available.
*** I don't like the looks of the current Accent; I may take another look when the new model comes out. I think once that happens, the Rio and Accent will be nearly identical, except the pictures I've seen show the Accent as a hatch and the Rio as a sedan.

The ZX3 and ZX5 are worth looking into, and possibly Dodge's upcoming Neon-replacement, which is supposed to be a hatch, but all of these have smaller, less powerful engines than the 3.
*** First of all, RECALIBRATE your thinking. The Mazda3 is NOT the standard by which I grade cars. When I looked at it, it was about $2k more for the same equipment as most of the other cars in the class... and worse mileage. My reference right now is the Scion xA: Moderately low price, very high gas mileage. For ride, I love the way the Reno drives, but after looking at Suzuki-Forums.com, it seems Forenzas (a close cousin) often get worse mileage than advertised, and the Reno advertises only 22/30.
I haven't managed to cross the Focus off the list yet; it kind of hangs around. I don't see it as outstanding in any single facet, but neither does it mightily suck in any way. I hesitate buying a new Neon replacement the first year out. It would be like buying a 2000 Focus. Those were so full of defects that the line is still living with the stigma. There's a fair chance a new Neon will have some bugs early on and I'm not gonna be the first guy on *my* block to own one.

The Spectra should be a major option, but apparently it didn't sit well (I dunno why; they're pretty sweet looking)
*** I agree with the looks, but then again, since you're so in luv with the 3, that comes as no surprise since the Spectra5 is an obvious 3 wannabe. But there's more to cars than looks.

and again, as you've noticed, it's less powerful, and has a softer suspension.
*** It isn't the "less power" thing that bothers me; I drive a 63 hp car right now (granted, it's a stick, so I can compensate). I don't need crazy acceleration. However, when I want to make a turn in front of traffic, I want the car to GO. The Hyundai and Kia both seemed to hesitate under these conditions.

Sounds like you liked the Aerio and Reno, so I guess you could go for one, but I just don't trust Suzuki/Daewoo (The aerio is built by Suzuki, but the Reno is a Daewoo product).
*** Right. That's exactly the rub.

Hatchbacks aren't cheap anymore. as I'm sure you've noticed; if they're only available in 1 trim in a model line, it's usually the HIGHEST trim, not the lowest. I spent the money on the Mazda3 and have never been happier with a car in 15 years of driving. It's powerful, comfortable, well-built, reliable, and I love the looks I get (it's red, bwa ha).
*** I kind of like the fact that they price them with all the options; I want quite a few baubles myself and I like that they come standard.

I ended up jumping through a few financial hoops to get that 3 I wanted it so bad. You should look into it again...your offspring will appreciate it, I think (MUCH more "cool factor" for a future college car).
*** Again, that's the rub: I am simply not going to push my resources beyond comfortable limits to buy a car. I have one kid starting college this fall, and another one 4 years after that. Son #1 has an Escort Wagon for driving around right now; he won't have a car on campus the first year. When he finally gets one, we may give him the Taurus my wife is driving around right now (and younger son will learn on the Escort). So that means next year, we'll be paying college bills and perhaps *two* car payments.

However, now is a bad time to try to buy a mazda3...they're going to be in pretty short supply until October
*** Enough with the Mazdas already; they were crossed off my list a LONG time ago. I'm glad you like your car; it's just not the car I'm going to buy.

nippononly · July 2005

out there right now by a long shot is the Mazda3. But you have to pay more to get it, and it gets middling fuel economy at best. The Matrix makes a good compromise for better fuel economy, but then you have to consider whether to get the Korean or Ford cars and save some money for a same-grade interior and power.

tacoboy · July 2005

Not sure what your price limit is, but in my neck of the woods I've been seeing some very good deals on the Mazda 6i hatchback. With the incentives (which they won't give on the 3s) the price is less than a comperbly equipt 3. It's an honest to god 5 person car and the room under the hatch is huge. Even with the back seats in place.

Of the cars you mention I would go for the ZX3. For 05 it has a new engine (Duratec20) based on the 2.3L in the Mazda 3. It is without a doubt the best handling of the cars you mention, and Ford will probably give you a pretty good deal. The Reno looks pretty cool, but if you believe Car and Driver it looks a lot better than it acts with sloppy handling and a rubbery transmission. I have a friend who has a Matrix and he has nothing but good words for it. It has a ton of cargo room in the back, and it's hard to beat that Toyota reliability. I really liked the Elantra I drove, but you obviously didn't so...... I know most people think the Aerio in big time fugly, but I've always kind of dug it. It reminds me of Anime for some reason. Love that power too. A Hyundai Accent GT got a pretty positive review in Car and Driver if I remember right. Have you check that out? Sorry for the rambling, just a guy who can't get to sleep :sick:

npaladin2000 · July 2005

Ooh, that is a good point...I didn't see the Matrix listed anywhere on his list, though that is leaning more toward Corolla class rather than xA class.

As far as xA class stuff, I think you've also forgotten the Chevy Aveo (also a Daewoo product, but a product sold by Chevy might be better off than one sold by Suzuki...). also on its way soon should be the new Honda Fit, which will slot in below the Civic. The new Rio is supposed to be Accent-based, but I saw it at the NY auto-show and it's closer to the wagon-like design of hatches, like the Protege5, Aerio, Spectra5, xA, etc. rather than the Accent's current coupe/hatch design. Dunno if you consider that a good thing or not, Doohickie.

And everyone's just going to have to forgive for making comparisions against the Mazda3. It's been widely recognized as the cream of the crop and the benchmark in the area of compact cars and hatchbacks. Any time Consumer Reports and the Road and Track/Car and Driver crowd agree, then you know a car has has come from the heavens as a gift to us mere mortals.

That's just the facts of life...and, incidentally, part of the reason why they're a little more expensive: supply and demand.

If one is worried about "go" rather than horsepower, you want to start looking at the torque figures on these engines, and pick one with a nice amount of low-end torque and preferably a torque peak below 4000 RPM (below 3500 RPM would be even better). Traditionally, these tend to be European and American engines, so the Aveo might be workable (It's a Korean engine, but based on an Opel engine, which is GM Euro). The xA has an Echo 1.5l engine, and Toyota's 4 cyl engines aren't known for low-end torque.

muffin_man · July 2005

napaladin2000 -
Honestly, if the Mazda3 is too expensive for you, that seriously limits your options.

I'm curious why you think so, the Mazda3 hatchback starts at what, $17k? I like the car, but at the upper end, it's definitely beyond being just an economy car. It probably wouldn't make it onto my shopping list if economy was my top priority. The gas mileage is just so-so, and it's expensive to get into. I've seen the occasional 3i for $11,495 - but that's with zero options - 5spd with no A/C. You could get a decently equipped Aerio, Reno, Elantra, Spectra, Aveo, Accent, or even Focus. The Mazda3 is practically a luxury car in this segment, hardly entry level.

doohickie -

How do you really feel about the Mazda3?

muffin_man · July 2005

The xA/xB should be high on his list, both excellent cars. The Aveo is definitely a good bargain alternative to the Scions, ours is excellent, and was only $8500. (but definitely not with the optional equipment that he wanted)

I think the Fit is going to destroy this market segment when it arrives.

chrisducati · July 2005

If you like at Aerio then I would give it a second drive. We have a Suzuki and have had very little trouble over the years. It is a 1996 model that we bought new. It now has 269585 miles on it. The only thing we have had malfunction on the car is the cv boots at about 180000, I opened the hood for a routine check and there was grease on the firewall. I snooped around and there was grease everywhere down there... the boot had a two inch rip in it. So 300 dollars in repair for nine years of service. I can not complain. aside from oil changes, trans and coolant flushes, timing belt every 60000 miles and three sets of brake pads, tires, that is all the expense we have had... It still has enough beans to spin the tires off the line and uses zero oil... I must say this is an automatic transmission car. Suzuki's big failure is the manual gear box they use. It has been trouble for years and years.. like over 10 that I know and they still have the same problems with it.... avoid the 5 speed if you buy a true Suzuki ..So there is my 2 cents on a true Suzuki. As far as the Daewoo's I have no clue as to if their GM engines will last 300000 miles.That said I would say people like our family are in the minority. Most people ditch cars at close to 100000 miles. I have seen some ratty looking cars with low miles... some people do not take care of things. If I were in the market for a new hatchback I would look at the Mazda 5. The Mazda 3, The Aerio and the Reno. The Kia Spectra looks good too. The Rio is a bit small now that the Cinco has been replaced...why they took away all that cargo room I will never know. Anyway...drive them...if you truly like a car buy it...pay for extended warranty if your afraid of it. My brother has a Kia and extended the bumper to bumper to 100000 miles. He has yet to use the warranty at all. It is still good to know it is there.

backy · July 2005

I second the vote for the Mazda6i 5-door. Current lease price in my town is $169/month with $2000 down, and I've seen purchase prices around $16k, which put it in the same ballpark as the Mazda3 hatch. The 6 has a feature few other hatches do--when you fold the rear seat, the seat cushion moves down too, providing a flat floor in one easy motion. It also has fine handling, and decent power although it won't snap your neck since it has the same 4-banger as the Mazda3s but more weight.

cti · July 2005

Because of GM's Employee Pricing, it was easy for me to look at prices. Plus, I like the looks of the Vibe more than its twin, the Matrix.

A base model with the following options:

Power Package - Power windows/door locks, cruise, keyless entry
Moon & Tunes (that's the actual package name) - upgraded stereo and moonroof
ABS & TPMS
Automatic

Employee Price of $18,069.55. A little over your 18k limit by a fraction. A model with nothing but automatic is $16,191.15.

Mileage is 29/34. The engine is only 130hp, but you are benchmarking against an xA. The small engine is actually a positive as it yields better fuel economy.

The biggest difference between the Vibe and the xA is space.

xA is 12/33 cu.ft.
Vibe 19/54 cu.ft.

My Mom really liked the xA - especially its small size and fuel economy. At the time, though, cruise wasn't available so she bought a used Protege 5 instead.

Which Hatchback?

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