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Comments
1. If the oil is being changed, what could malfunction to cause the "Sludge".
2. What is SLUDGE?! Is it decomposed oil that is adhering to the engine pan?
3. Are the oil levels typically low when the smoke appears?? Or are they normal.
4. Could it be faulty oil filters?
What is engine sludge and how is it formed?
Sludge is a thick, jelly-like substance that is detrimental to the performance and life of
your engine. Sludge obstructs oil passages and restricts oil flow. Once built up, it reduces
heat transfer, increases the operating temperature and hampers engine operation. Sludge
will lead to shortened engine life.
Although the oil appears to be at fault, it is actually the victim of mechanical and chemical attack. The
formation of sludge is a complex interaction of components. Each factor deserves attention.
Soot
Soot is fine powder that is a product of incomplete combustion. This carbon substance enters the
crankcase with exhaust blow-by gases that escape past the piston rings. Since soot is a very fine
powder, it thickens oil by a process called "soot loading." It gels the oil like a cake mix thickens milk.
If your motor oil becomes excessively thick, there will be less oil circulated through the engine. Also,
the oil will leave a thicker oil film on the engine parts, which prevents proper heat transfer. By
remaining on the hot parts, the oil will burn and form deposits.
Engine heat, a natural result of internal combustion, takes its toll on your motor oil. In the presence of
air, oil undergoes a process called oxidation, which becomes more severe as the temperature
increases. Oxidation thickens the oil and produces corrosive acids. Left unchecked, your oil would
degrade into a tar-like mess. While you want your internal engine temperature above 210F to evaporate
unwanted contaminants, above 250F the oil is more prone to oxidation. At temperatures of 300'F, this
process occurs rapidly.
As long as inhibitors are present, no significant oxidation will occur. However, these additives
are consumed with time. After their depletion, oil oxidation proceeds rapidly. Regular oil changes are
needed.
Fuel
Fuel enters your crankcase with exhaust blow-by gases in unburned and partially burned forms. It is
chemically unstable; therefore, it reacts with itself and the oil to form gums, varnishes and asphaltic
type compounds. These resinous substances are also unstable and react further to cause even more oil
thickening.
Oil additive packages include strong detergents and corrosion inhibitors to neutralize these compounds.
They interrupt the reaction process and allow the dispersants to surround these contaminants so they
can be removed at the oil drain. Again, these additives eventually will be depleted. An oil change is
necessary to get a fresh charge of detergents and corrosion inhibitors.
Acids
When fuel burns, some products of combustion react with moisture in the system to form acids. These
include sulfuric, hydrochloric and organic acids.
Sulfur-based acids are undesirable because they attack the oil, reducing its detergency. Organic acids
react with unburned fuel to promote sludge and varnish. In addition, acids can cause additive settling,
or dropout.
Because acids are an inevitable by-product of combustion, oils incorporate potent additives to control
these compounds. Our motor oils contain high-alkaline detergents and corrosion inhibitors that provide
effective acid neutralization. However, these cannot last forever. Again, regular oil changes are
required.
Most people associate dirt with engine wear. It can also play a role in sludge formation. Wear of piston
rings and cylinder walls causes an increase in piston blow-by. Since the exhaust gases contain many
harmful by-products, their presence in the crankcase should be minimized. Nonetheless, some of these
compounds will escape past the rings.
Oils ashless dispersant and anti-wear additive components work to fight the harmful effects of dirt
The dispersants suspend and isolate the dirt soot and other solid particles that work their way into the
oil. The anti-wear agents help to prevent the wear that creates the clearances that allow these gases
to enter the crankcase. As with the other additives, an oil change is necessary to flush the unwanted
components and restock the engine with fresh additives.
Engine Coolant (Antifreeze)
This is your engine oil's number one enemy. Engine sludge is inevitable when oil meets engine coolant.
Contamination of your oil with coolant promotes sludge by two means. First, it introduces water into
the oil. This presents problems that we've previously discussed. Second, it brings into contact oil and
coolant that are incompatible fluids.
As the temperatures experienced in your engine, oil and coolant react to form deposits. Some are
gooey or gel-like. This is typical sludge. Others are hard, brittle deposits that plug oil passageways,
reducing oil flow. These two types of deposits guarantee a shortened life for your engine.
No oil additives available will help solve this problem. The only solution is to drain the oil and locate the
source of contamination. Then, have the mechanical problem repaired.
These are the enemies of your engine oil -- Soot, Heat, Fuel, Water, Acid, Dirt and Engine Coolant.
Motor oil formulations provide the highest level of protection against these enemies.
Inadequate Engine Maintenance
Lack of engine maintenance is probably responsible for more sludged engines than all other categories
combined. Establish proper oil change for your vehicle. A timely oil change is inexpensive insurance for your engine.
A properly tuned engine is a must. Efficient, lean combustion produces fewer harmful acids, soot and
unburned fuel than a rough running engine.
The proper quality oil for your engine. Never use oil that is rated less than the minimum API
Service Category specified by your auto engine manufacturer.
Finally, the cooling system must be flushed and refilled periodically with a proper water/coolant
mixture. This prevents engine overheating.
These are just a few examples. There are other conditions - clogged air filter, low oil level, low coolant
level, bad fuel, etc. that contribute to sludge.
The formation of sludge in your engine is a disturbing problem. Often, the oil seems to be at fault.
More often, however, oil is the victim. It is the victim of mechanical malfunctions, extended oil drains
or a poorly tuned engine.
I would like to share with you some of the issues and remedies.
Took delivery of the vehicle July 2000. Had engine light, torque Converter replacement soon afterwards, you know the drill........This was only the beginning:
Brakes:
Noticed clicking noise while applying the brakes in reverse, (front left tire). Took it to two dealers and had factory rep. examine. He stated its " normal brake noise, all Toyota's do that"
Bull____ ! The problem is that the brake pad floats" inside the caliper housing. When you back up, the pad wants to go forward, making a clunk or click. You will notice that if you go from reverse to drive and back again the noise continues. The tolerances or spacing that Toyota allowed for the pad to travel in the housing may differ from housing to housing. I measured the clearances from left to right front wheel and noticed the larger gap on the left, thus the sound on my particular van is only from the left side. OK , heres the fix. If the dealer wont replace the housing, ask your local brake shop to "build up" or put a spot weld on both sides of the pad and re-assemble. Make sure the pad still has some play in it and the noise disappears.
Seats rattle:
Front - I have no rattles, cant offer any advice
Middle - Captains chairs: Try lifting the seat an check for and material or cables/springs touching other materials under the seats. Change positions of the seat(i.e. move forward or reverse one notch) If you have leather, take some leather softener and apply some to the seats where the leather makes contact to the plastic trim.
Rear - Take them out and re-install, my seats were not in correctly.....
Gas Mileage
14-16 around town, suburban NJ
20+ on the highway, dont expect miracles, this is a heavy, moving brick that does not cheat the wind like the Honda or Nissan...
Tires
They su__ ! Firestone junk. Already been to the local Firestone dealer to get them pro-rated for a set of Michelins. Don't waste your time, my tires are wearing out at 4 times the normal rate. Wait until they wear out, take your warranty(the 80k mile warranty) and ask them them to give you a replacement set of another brand of tire. With all the attention and problems at Firestone, they will make good on a new set. My local tire dealer has already given me this piece of info...
Door rattles:
Front passenger door rattles upon closing. It sounds like a "double hit" when it hits the frame rails. Guess what. Its the crappy lower vinyl body side mouldings that are either loose or slapping aginst the door when it closes.
This is my latest dilemma:
Try making a slow left or right turn 20-25 mph , and accelerate out of the turn while allowing the steering wheel to come back to center. Notice a muffled thump ? The dealer is currently trying to figure this one out.
Oh, by the way, I own a '94 Quest with 140K, never seen a mechanic, just routine maintenance. The Sienna was supposed to replace this vehicle. It runs better than the Sienna.
I guess, I bought the wrong van....
Before you think the quest is great, look at crask test:
Take a look at
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/98023.htm
look at the "eating your kneecaps" pix on the upper right of the 4 set of pix -- Sienna pix is better.
After seeing some previous posts about the camshaft sensor leaking, the lightbulb went off about why the front of the engine has a coat of grime on it. The camshaft sensor seal appeared to be the solution. Guess what the dealer said? The accumulation on that part of the engine is due to moisture and is perfectly normal. Funny, only the right half of the engine is subject to this moisture. The Toyota is the only vehicle I have had to have warranty work done on since my Nissan Pathfinder. I am on my third Acura and have NEVER seen the dealer for warranty work (knock on wood for my new MDX). All in all, I am quite satisfied with the Sienna; the dealer just does not have a great customer service attitude. They advertise that they win service excellence awards from Toyota, but I have always had to return a second time if a part was required - a huge inconvenience.
I have a '98 XLE that has only one real issue, the steering rack problem. It was graciously replaced by my dealership. I did have a battle with the interior brake pedal clicking noise. I won the battle and got it fixed right.
I have 44,000 miles, Mobil One from day one, change oil myself every 3-5K miles, NO SLUDGE.
Please potential Sienna owners, there are WAY more happy owners than unhappy, look at it's crash test results and think of your family. And last of all, don't spend big bucks on a vehicle and then decide to get cheap. Use good oil, good filters and change it often!
I experienced similar VSC problem you had. My 2001 Sienna XLE was purchased in October. My VSC and Trac Off lights come on often (sometimes ABS light joins in).
I had to take the van in to the dealer few times before they can resolve the problem. My experience was that warning lights would come on when the car is cold. If I drive the car for more than 20-30mins then shut the engine off and restart the engine, lights would not come back on...
I told the dealer about the "cold" start and they waited for the car cools down (cold weather helps) and with all warning lights on they detected (or computer detected) the "Steering Angle Sensor" was bad. It would not function when it's cold, so the computer shut the VSC system off.
I also called Toyota customer service department and they made sure that the dealer would work with the Toyota's special service department to resolve the problem.
No more warning lights after the Steering Angle Sensor was replaced...
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Something like that...
Scott
2. How often do you check your oil levels?
3. Any overheating?
The 7,500 mile thing would be for absolutely ideal conditions (never hot, never cold, never stuck in stop-and-go traffic, never have short trips, never idling). The only folks I know of that go 7,500 are all using 100% synthetic oil (Mobil 1) and super high-quality filters.
The oil light coming on when braking sounds like you were low on oil. Did you check it? What kind of oil do you use (brand and weight)?
If the oil overheats (can be caused from engine overheating, not having enough oil, etc.) it breaks down in viscosity. When it breaks down, it will thicken. As it thickens the engine (oil pump) has a harder and harder time moving it though the engine which then leads to less oil protecting your engine and the engine running hotter. As the engine runs hotter the oil keeps breaking down further and further getting thicker and thicker until you have...."sludge".
4. When the oil light came on, what did you do about it?
5. When you changed oil, did you change filters?
6. Did you smell burning oil from the engine?
7. Did you notice oil spots on the garage floor or in the driveway or where you park at work?
With the number of miles you have on your vehicle (30,000) you would have changed oil and filter only 4 times during the life of your van. Most people, who change their oil and filter every 3,000 miles, would have changed their oil and filter 10 times.
I guess the point of all of this is that "sludge" appears for a reason, we're just trying to figure out what that reason is...
Scott
Thanks for the info. I will bring up the "steering angle sensor" possibility to their attention. Thanks again.
1) What model and engine do you have?
2) What was your mileage when symptoms began?
3) What was the mileage when you received the "sludge in the engine" diagnosis?
4) Was your warranty voided due to Toyota's alleged "owner neglect" of maintenance?
5) What were your oil change intervals?
6) Were you told that you needed a new engine?
7) What was the cost incurred?
8) Were you offered any assistance from Toyota in the repair costs? If so, describe.
9) Did Toyota PROVE that you were at fault? IF so, HOW?
10) Did Toyota closely inspect your engine? IF so, what was noted specifically?
Please provide any details that might help expand the owner database. Most scenarios I have read are remarkably similar. Such similarities are far too many to be simply coincidental.
Does anyone have information about any current class action lawsuits? Does anyone have any information on petitions to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to investigate this problem on behalf of all owners? Does anyone have any information from the Center for Auto Safety on trends of owner complaints logged? Does anyone have any information on consumer investigative journalists who might be interested in "digging" into this issue?
Thank you for ANY helpful information. I trust that the host of this site will make sure that posts are limited to responses addressing the issues.
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
The only part of this mystery that I cannot understand is that if Toyota actually realizes that there is the potential for sludge, why not change the manual to suggest changing the oil at a lower interval, possibly 5,000 miles. There would be no additional cost on their part and it would prevent problems such as those described in previous postings-possibly tarnishing their name and reputation!
I do sympathize with those with sludge, especially with "cblake" who has had a plethora of problems with her Sienna and other vehicles. I do not agree with her theory that the Sienna's have an inherent sludge problem and that changing the oil every 3,000-5,000 miles will only delay the inevitable problem-as described in her previous posts.
I'm with "18466", I spent +$30,000 on my XLE and plan on keeping it for a long time, so I don't hesitate to spend the $20 every 3,000 miles to have the oil changed. Although I do stick with the dino oil, that is, until somebody convinces me to go with synrhetics........
1. The extended warranty provides coverage for 6-years (from date of purchase) or 100K miles which comes first. Since, I will not be driving 100K miles in the 1st six years (we live in the city and do not take long trips. Our average mileage per year is about 7-8K miles ) does anyone know of plans that do not have any limit on the years but on the miles only or if there are plans that provide coverage for more than 6 years (say 10 years).
2. The dealer also offered a “after market program” coverage instead of the Toyota factory backed plan. Which is better ?
3. The MSRP for Toyota factory plan is about 900$ (for platinum coverage). Is this negotiable and how much should I pay if I decide on this ?
Your help will be appreciated
I drive right at 10000 per year so in 6 years, the extended warranty would be gone. The factory warranty would cover for 5 years (for me up to 50000 miles). I can't see getting the extended warranty. The dealer is just trying to make a lot more profit. Wait a few years and see how your car is holding up.
>SACRIFICING ONE LESS "STAR" ON A QUESTIONABLE SAFETY RATING FOR THE NISSAN MAY BE WORTH IT.
>DONT BE A FOOL LIKE I WAS.
... and if you go to an Odyssey forum, or a Dodge forum, or a Chrysler forum,
you'll find peoplewith problems. And most of them are probably true, tho none
of us know for sure when the only evidence we have of someone's veracity
is a flow of electrons. I'll bet on the CR and JDPower statistics and buy the
Toyota.
I do hope that your problems are solved soon. Good luck !
Greg.
>Oh, by the way, I own a '94 Quest with 140K, never seen a mechanic, just routine maintenance. The
> Sienna was supposed to replace this vehicle. It runs better than the Sienna.
> I guess, I bought the wrong van....
I own the Mercury version, the Villager. It has 65Kmiles on it. I've spent over $3K on
repairs (over and above maintenance) on it in the past 12 months.
Greg.
Did you know that some owners are experiencing sludge in the engine and being denied warranty claims? Did you know that these same owners are paying $5,000-8,000 for new engines? Did you know that some 2000 Sienna owners are having torque converter replacements within the first few hundred miles of driving? Did you know that others have had total transmission failures after after a few thousand miles? Did you know that there are other problems common to this vehicle? Have you had:
1) Persistent drifting/pulling to the left or the right
2) Uneven wear of tires with need for early replacement
3) Premature brake component wear, including rear brake drums
4) Power steering problems, including inner tie rod or total rack and pinion replacement
5) Vibrations, esp. at speeds above 50 MPH
6) Premature transmission problems or failure
7) Torque converter replacement, sometimes just after delivery
8) Sliding door latch problems with sticking and difficulty opening
9) Oil sludge in the engine related to a contaminated system
IF you have experienced these problems, please write to the following agencies and file a report detailing your case. THEN, network with others by visiting sites where owners post experiences.
U.S. Department of Transportation
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Office of Defects Investigations
NSA-10.01
400 7th Street, NW
Washington, D.C. 20590
1-800-424-9393
1-888-327-4236
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov
Center for Auto Safety
1825 Connecticut Ave., NW
Suite 330
Washington, D.C. 20009-5708
http://www.autosafety.org
The Complaint Station--click "T", then "Toyota"
http://www.thecomplaintstation.com
Car Trackers Discussion Forum
http://www.cartrackers.com
Phil Edmonston's Lemon-Aid Car Guides
http://www.lemonaidcars.com
Also, use the USENET groups:
alt.autos.toyota
alt.autos.toyota.camry
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
It's obvious that you've had some problems with your vehicle, it's also obvious that some of your issues are "imagined" (i.e. the "sludge" issue that you're sure that you'll have even though it has not yet happened).
While we're all sorry that you are having problems with your vehicles, it is unfair to paint with such a broad brush and basically call all Toyota vehicles crap.
Let's see, they've sold millions and millions of them...they have among the highest resale value...they are highly acclaimed by virtually every automotive publication...they have very,very high owner satisfaction and owner loyalty.
Those are the facts.
Yep. we've seen the postings from people who go 8,000 miles (probably more) between oil changes and then complain that their engine is trashed. Doesn't matter what make of vehicle you own, if you don't take care of it it will fail.
Scott
I have read in the Town Hall for about 20 months and have observed that the Sienna had a brief period of torque converter problems. The Odyssey and Accord with V6 have the most "reported" problems in the Town Hall. The much maligned Chrysler vans had many problems in older models...but very few with 1999 and 2000. Even with all the problems reported in Town Hall on Odyssey and Accord V6, the percentage of owners with problems is VERY low. Like Sienna, the chance of getting an Odyssey with problems would be very low.
We sat in every vehicle at the Big Auto Show last January and the Sienna is the VERY most comfortable for both my wife and I. My wife says Odyssey glove box intrudes into passenger leg room. I like the Odyssey driver seat and all seats but front passenger seat...however, the Sienna is most comfortable in every seat for me. I also like the soft, padded Sienna front door armrests better than the hard cloth covered Odyssey door armrests.
The seats are very comfortable. The cabin is very quiet. We have not had a single problem to date with our vehicle.
I sympathize for Charlene Blake who apparently has a vehicle with many actual and perceived problems. The list (and the posts) seems to get longer each month. This sounds like the exception rather than the rule among Sienna owners. I hope those looking for a new van will listen to the majority of owners when considering their new purchase.
It turns out, my steering clunk is 95 % diminished and the steering feels much tighter than before. What I mean is that unless I take make 90 deg turn at approx. 15-20 mph and (you will probably never do this in ordinary driving unless you are hunting for a parking spot in the shopping mall lanes) whip the wheel around back to center, I don't really hear anything. Turns out the dealer, a regional factory rep and the regional tech rep spent 4 hrs disassembling the engine, tranny, suspension, the new rack, and exhaust from their mounting points/bushings. After checking all the parts and moving the mounts a bit they carefully re--assembled the front end, tranny etc and the noise is greatly diminished. They suspect that since the tranny was out of the vehicle for the T/C replacement back in Aug, it and all accompanying suspension parts were not properly seated. The moral of the story is: Those of you who have had the T/C replaced should make sure everything was put back correctly. It was a major job and anything could have been re-installed incorrectly causing creaks or groans......
For my troubles the factory rep is giving me a Toyota Platinum plan 6yr/100k miles. He said it was the least Toyota could do. The dealership handled this with kid gloves; the factory rep. must have called me 4 times in the past 3
days. Kudos to Toyota on that......
However, I am still not satisfied with the quality of this vehicle. The captain's chair still rattle, the pass. door still does not sound right when closing, the car gets 14-15 mpg, the brakes still make noise and the engine still has a slight whine at idle. Maybe I am extremely picky about my vehicle , but it is my money, and this has not been a pleasing experience. The extended warranty may just be the factory's way of appeasing me......
I will drive this vehicle for another 2-3 months before I make a decision on whether to sell it or not.
Regards to all, peace during this holiday season,
KK 123
P.S. Take it easy on CBLAKE. We need consumer advocates in our society. While I may not necessarily believe any claims about the sludge issue, I do feel we need to band together when we feel we are being taken for a ride......
P.P..S. The Sienna lemons seem to be all XLE's.... The '01 LE loaner I had was a dream, no captains chairs = no rattles. pass door made the same sound as mine when closing but the suspension noise and engine whine was non-existent.
1. Passenger side window glass was getting stuck.
2. Tire pressure light coming on / it was taken care earlier too.
3. Driver side seat belt light on all the time .
4. Leak rear washer fluid.
5. I just got all the tires balance and rotated but still
the ride is not smooth.
And you know what these dealers don't fix the problem on the
same day (not enough parts), and guess what? you got to take it
to the dealership again.
I was a big time toyota fan , I am having some doubts now .....
sdb1.
(Toyota of
No problems with condensation in my 2000 Sienna XLE and I live in Minnesota (currently -4 with a -45 WindChill).
Scott
What I wanted to relate was a card placed in my owner's manual about SLUDGE! I thought the sludge may be one of those BS things but why is Toyota specifically placing a warning card in the manual about using "quality oil and filter" on a regular 5-7500 mile basis? Regardless, I will be very careful in documenting my oil changes. Will use mobil 0w30 and pure one filter. No sludge will be made from those great products.
INKY
I walked over to the car and flipped her over to fresh air from recirculate. I shut the door again and within 30 seconds, the windows were fog free. She was so excited that she fell in love with her old car again and didn't want to look at a new one any more.
On the other hand our Camry, Sienna and MDX have a "recirculate" button or lever to control the air from the outside. People who have been driving GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles may not know that.
tly9@netzero.net
The Sienna has been used like a truck... to move a number of our kids belongings to new locations, as well as haul tons of landscaping
stuff when we moved to a new home. I love this car... quiet, great sound system, handles well. Sure, it doesn't corner like my old '96 Maxima SE but this is a VAN and you drive accordingly. I expect to put 200,000 on this car before I get bored and move on to something else.
Near Toronto ,where we live the weather is tough, from one extreme to the other. You do have to watch deep snow as it is kind of deceiving although you sit nice and high, the van frame isn't and you can get hung up... so we switch to the Outback on those days.
I would like to figure out what octane rating I should use. I know about all spectrum of recommendations from 87 to 93. Please share with me your practical experiences.
My Sienna will be in a very undemanding use. Mostly it will be driven by my wife only. Why then mini van? We like to sit high and have larger vehicle for safety.
Thanks
any comments, why not to buy?
Dealer has replaced entire back brakes (or at least that is what the work order has said that they have done) two times and adjusted/cleaned the brakes on the other two visits.
Noise is gone when I pick up the van but returns within several miles of driving with normal braking. Dealer said noise is anoying but not dangerous. Except for this one recurring problem the van has been great (almost 30,000 miles on it so far)
Anyone else having this problem?
Take care,
Murf
The first 1k, was break in period.. so low mileage is expected. When is the mileage expected to improve. I would appreciate if other sienna owners share their mileage figures.
Venkatesh
Good luck!
Drew
Edmunds.com Townhall co-host
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