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Comments
Don
Hope this answers your question.
Don
-juice
1) a Toyota Highland and 2) Volvo V70 2.4T and 3) Passant v6.
The Highlander was very nice and had even more room than my Sable. But it was an SUV and I just didn't know about safety (rollovers) and the cost of ownership. It also felt a little "twitchy". But I liked it and think it's a nice smaller SUV.
With the Volvo, I thought I wasn't getting enough new stuff to justify the trade. Yeah, lots of safety, but low head room, not as comfy seats as you'd expect and rumors of horrible reliability.
The Passat is very nice, smooth, but I hate that red/blue night instrumentation and the seats aren't great. And reliability is questionable. (Also, VW is very greedy and expensive on non-warranty repairs. They're getting so full of themselves!)
So i got a Saab. It's definitely top quality build, nice cabin (albeit crappy cupholders), the most awesome stereo I've ever had and has other thoughtful amenities. A little small, but great seats, nice performance.
The only thing I don't like is the tight European suspension drive. Very tight. After having a Sable that you can steer with your pinky finger without even thinking about it, it's a rather harsh ride. I'm trying to adapt. If I don't, I'll probably try a new 2003 Sable. They've upgraded the seats and added some basic
s, like ABS standard.
I'll keep you posted.
Thank you and enjoy your Saab!
-juice
I love the 5 series, and the wagons are roomy and offer everything a family with an enthusiast dad could want. The 2.5l is not quick, though, that's the only catch. Especially loaded up with passengers. Besides that they are super nice. I like them better than the X5, they drive better, handle better, ride better, cost less, and have more cargo room.
I like Passats, but IMHO a $22k 1.8T is a much better value than a $40k W8. Chip the former and call it a bargain.
C&D did a comparo with the W8 a couple of months ago, it didn't do so well in that price class.
-juice
On a positive note, despite Consumer Report's less than positive reliability ratings of the new Passat, I've heard nothing from praise from Passat owners and very much enjoyed my very thourough test drive of that vehicle.
I think your Subie was an exception, though. The window angle can be adjusted, someone in the main thread even shared instructions on how to do that yourself. Electrical problems are rare.
They don't use any GM parts (yet, at least). In fact Subaru cancelled plans to share a GM platform for the 2005 SUW. Get metric sockets because the english ones you might have for your domestic car will not fit on any Subaru nuts and bolts.
Subaru has remained fiercely independent, one Legacy ad even showed a GM vehicle performing poorly in an IIHS crash test, saying the competition was banging their heads up against the wall. That's independence.
-juice
We get a Kia Rio Cinco wagon in the US, is it similar?
-juice
What can you suggest that has the reliablity and cargo space of the Subaru Loyale?
The data also indicates that Subaru models are continuing to increase in reliability, not decrease. Of course, any brand can have problems on any specific car, but statistically your best bet are those brands. I would think a base legacy wagon would be your best bet.
Good luck,
Mike
Foresters are made in Gunma, Japan, and if you pick up the CR auto issue you'll see they're at the top of the reliability ratings for small SUVs. I have a '98 and the only way I'll give it up is if a Forester turbo arrives next year.
Loyales are fun. My cousin had one, later traded up for an Outback. Loved both.
You won't find a 2WD Subaru, though. They went exclusively AWD in 1995 and haven't looked back. Sales have just about doubled since they made that decision, and AWD now defines them, basically.
-juice
I still miss my Sable, but I'm getting more used to the Saab.
And there's other little things, like the central door lock button is on the floor console and the hatch button is on the door. Confusing and easy to forget. The storage area under the cargo area floor (for shallow or flat items) is useless because you can only lift the storage compartment door if you have nothing else in back. Hello, parent with stroller and other child stuff!!!!!!
Other than that, it's ok. Power is decent in regular Drive, and in the "sport" mode, you just plain haul [non-permissible content removed]! (Not that I need that to go to the grocery store.) The seats are still way comfy (better than Volvo in my opinion) and the stereo still rocks.
And it still feels very solid and will probably last for years. Don't know that I'll keep it that long, but it does feel good to know I'm driving a quality build car and I only have to take it in for routine servicings ever 10,000 miles. Plus all the people at Santa Ana Saab are great, and treat you like they give a damn about your business, even when they know you don't love their product.
Who knows, maybe I'll keep it a while after all.
Aerio felt a little cheap to me. Look at some of the rough edges on the doors, unfinished carpet and trim, stuff like that. I'd lean towards a Matrix, Outback Sport, or P5.
Nice update Nelson.
-juice
The problem with European cars is that at least the parts are outrageously expensive. I'd rather go American.
Good luck with your Saab!
The car easily holds 4 adults and a child seat plus a decent amount of cargo or with the rear seats down it holds a ton of stuff. The roof racks are good too, I have the Thule system for cargo and bikes.
The stock stereo is quite nice, an 8-speaker Panasonic.
With 0% financing they end up being quite a bit cheaper than a Subaru Legacy unless you're paying cash and it is a couple thousand cheaper to begin with ($25K CND vs. $27K CND for the Legacy). It is FWD with a fully independent suspension. I have the 2.2L 4-banger which I find gives good fuel economy and more than adequate acceleration. With snow tires on it there are no worries in snow or ice.
If you look at used ones, 2001 and up is better than the first year, 2000, though most 2000's probably have all the recalls done on them already. There may still be a few 2002's on the lots.
Saturn didn't used to do incentives but they do them now so while it is still no haggle I find with cash and finance deals it turns out to be competitive. The Focus wagon is cheaper still but it is a smaller vehicle with a smaller engine.
I find the build quality is quite good.
Oh well, good luck in finding your wagon!
I think I saw an ad on Sunday where Saturn is offering pretty big cash back now. When we were shopping back in May, the Legacy L actually carried a small price advantage, even with AWD, but not with this rebate.
I still preferred the Legacy and don't regret it, but it may be worth a look if you like the idea of not haggling for the purchase.
-juice
I should have said "here in the US". I also got a $750 rebate and paid a price at around invoice, compared to full MSRP with no rebate (at the time) for a Saturn wagon.
The Brigthon was only available for MY2000, then it was gone. It looked wierd withouth the roof rack, if you ask me.
-juice
I actually prefer the Matrix over the Vibe, but that roof is smooth.
-juice
Look in the paper. You're on the right track by having well defined needs, be just as thorough on your test drives and you'll end up just fine.
-juice
If you're looking at a Matrix and vehicles in its price range, you'd be in about the ballpark of a certified pre-owned Volvo.
Good luck!
-juice
I believe reliability is where failure of anything at 100k miles is out of the ordinary, not expected.
Mike
Regarding the build quality of the Saturn LW, I have one and find it's decently put together. However, component and interior material quality is lacking and resale value is terrible. Unless you keep it until it is worn out, the Saturn L series wagon only makes sense as a leased vehicle.
I agree with the Saturn resale comments. I also have a LW and love the car but fully intend to drive it into the ground. Mine has been just great so far and I hope to get many more years out of it.
You should know that lease rates and residuals are related to the resale value so you rarely do better with a lease -- a car with poor resale will generally have a low residual which means higher payments. Leasing a car with high resale value will actually yield lower payments (but a higher residual for if you want to buy it out at the end). The guys who lease them aren't completely stupid you know, as they have to get rid of them afterward!
I guess when you see lots of 20 year old models on the road, it's perceived as durable. How many Dodge Omnis do you still see driving around? Not many. How many Volvo 240s? Plenty. That's what I mean.
-juice
Realistically, I think that newer Volvos will prove to be similar to the old ones in terms of staying on the road, but not cheaply.
Mike
Another thing is it might be worth spending $$$ for repairs on a Volvo, and not a Kia Rio, since the Volvo has more value to begin with. So the Rio will be retired much sooner.
You're not going to pay for a $3000 engine rebuild on a Kia. For a Volvo, maybe, depends on the age.
-juice
There were turbos and Renault-built 6's plus some diesels too, more engines than you could shake a stick at. The Haynes manuals were huge.
Enough room in a 245 to carry a 3-person couch in the wagon with the hatch closed (and rear seats folded down) so they were great for moving into college. The 740s and later models seem quite small by comparison...
I've got the 2.3l 8 valve motor (B230F, for those keeping score at home) with the five speed manual transmission. It's no speed demon, but it get around town and cruises on the highway pretty well.
With any older car, Volvo or otherwise, how it looks 15 years from rolling off the assembly line is all about how the owner takes care of it. I'm the second owner of this car; I've had it two years and it's obvious the first owner took great pride in it (as evidenced by the maintenance book that was found in the glovebox when I bought it. He serviced it at the Volvo dealer it was bought from new, and traded back into the same dealer, which is where I bought it.) I'm constantly getting comments from people who think it's a newer car than it is. It's got 124k on the clock, and I've sunk $0 into non-scheduled maintenance. (Scheduled maintenance, even at an independent shop, is a bit pricey, though, I'll admit.) I, too, am fastidious about maintenance, both mechanical and cosmetic.
Having said all this, though, I've seen some pretty ratted out Volvos, especially down in the local college town (Iowa City.) Again, it's all about how it's taken care of from day one.
I've heard from a few sources that the average front drive Volvo isn't as durable, and that might be true; a quick check of eBay reveals more than a few 150,000 or even 200k+ mile 850s, however.
I really like my Volvo and will likely replace it (or my wife's Accord, when its time comes) with another one.