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Help Me Select a Wagon
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-juice
Thanks for your participation! ;-)
Revka
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Also, and probably a bigger factor, is that the current 5 series has a $4000 dealer incentive, since the new ones are coming soon. In the What did you Pay? threads, many folks are getting them for $2600 under invoice.
I just did some quick math, that puts a base 525i wagon at $34 grand. IMHO, that's a much, much better value than the used car you are considering.
Look at it this way, the seller paid just $7000 for 4 years and 50k miles of use. Bare with me, that's not what he actually paid, but you get my point, I'm comparing what a new model would cost now.
You get the full warranty, 4 years of free maintenance even (imagine what you would spend in the next 4 years on that used one).
Then consider you'll easily recover most of the difference when it's time to resell it, it'll be 4 years newer and have 50k fewer miles.
The only trick is finding a lightly equipped model, Edmunds says options typically add $5 grand to the price.
Otherwise I'd get the 4Motion, it has a nice Torsen center diffy and truly full-time AWD.
-juice
I have driven and considered the Chrysler Pacifica, Volvo S80 (actually can get 4 in the back seat), and the Acura MDX. I would like to see a Honda Pilot but can't locate one in my area, and received a message from Edmunds that local dealers would contact me, but that was a week ago and I haven't heard anything.
I have not driven them yet, but I understand that I can get a bench front seat for the Toyota Avalon and the Dodge Intrepid. But Edmunds comments that the Avalon is pricey and I suspect that the Intrepid is not close enough to the luxury ride that I would like to come close to for an in-between price. My husband wants to consider a Ford Expedition because they are on sale in our area for about $6,000 off right now, but I haven't driven one and your site says that it drives as big as it looks. I don't want another BIG car! We've looked at vehicles priced up to $40,000, most being in the $35,000 range. However, my husband would like to stay in the $25-30,000 price range, and I suspect I may need to go with a used vehicle to hit that.
Any comments from anyone else about the vehicles that I have mentioned, or about any wagons or other vehicles, new or used, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
So which kid goes without a seatbelt in this case? You need a minivan, Pacifica, or SUV...no two ways about it. The rear-facing "tail-gunner" third seat offered in some wagons is really meant for smaller children, and then only occasionally. Here we have a case of having your wants trumping your needs. Take care of your needs first, and within that subset of vehicles, choose which one you want. Don't cram four kids in the back of a sedan (I don't care if it is a Volvo; that's plain unsafe; and doubling up two kids in one seatbelt is just plain dumb) just to satisfy your desire not to be seen in a minivan. As well, you'll find having a kid riding up front with you in a bench seat-equipped sedan on every single family trip will get annoying.
A Honda Pilot, Pacifica, Odyssey, or even a Trailblazer with the optional third row seat would work. You're right when you say the Expedition is just too darned big. Although I'm a big fan of Hondas, if you can't find a Pilot and an Odyssey is out of the question for fashion or vanity reasons, then a Pacifica would be a good bet.
P.S. We currently have a Ford crewcab pickup so we do the family trips with a teenager in the middle of the front bench seat.
ps. I realize I might have sounded a bit harsh earlier. Sorry. I really think an Odyssey would be your best option. I'm a big Volvo fan myself...my '89 Volvo 740 simply will not die. :-)
I've been test driving wagons for a while, and need to hear some opinions, pros-cons, etc. I need to upgrade in size from my 99 Honda Civic Si Coupe to something that can more comfortably accomadate my two 80-lb dogs. (I didn't have dogs when I bought the Honda...and interestingly, one dog fit fine, but as the puppy grows, two won't fit much longer). I've decided that a couple-year old car makes much more sense for me than buying new, so I've been looking at mostly used wagons.
I've driven the Volvo XC70 (both 2000 and 2001), the Subaru Outback (both 5spd manual and LL Bean H6), and the Saab 9-5 Wagon (all three engine versions). I haven't driven the Passat and won't (I know some people love it, but I just don't). Audi's are out as well for reliability concerns.
While the Volvo was a very nice ride, I can't justify the money for the car given it's CR reliability record. And although the value of a 5 spd Subie is good, it's just not enough fun for me to drive after my little "sports" car. That leaves the LL Bean and the 9-5 Wagon. I think they are relatively comparable in terms of cargo room, though I think the dogs may actually fit in the back of the 9-5 Wagon with the rear seat up and I don't think they'll fit in the LL Bean that way. Honestly, I like the look and drive of the Saab a bit better than the Subaru, but am worried about long-term repair costs and reliability. (My problem with the H-6 is the acceleration...don't know if it's because the torque is at the high end or what, and it also doesn't seem to shift as smoothly as other automatics. I'm also not used to driving automatics as I've never owned one). But, I like the AWD of the Subie, and they hold their value much better than Saabs, even though it seems that every other car here in Colorado is a Subie. I know Subie owners LOVE their cars, but it seems that many Saab owners do too, so who knows who to believe! :-) Oh, and when asking a mechanic which wagon he'd get....Subie. Sigh....
Just as a side note, I did just test drive the 2004 Forester XT to see how I liked it. It's fun to drive, but I don't like the dark interior, or the Turbo gauge. I'm hoping they put that engine on the re-design of the Legacy/Outback so I'll have a good upgrade in the future!
Any opinions/advice? Thanks!!
Steph & her big red dogs
I was just out judging a two-day AKC agility trial at the Western Expo Center in Denver. Subies are as common out there as in VT. Gotta be a reason or three for that!
Then again, look at the vehicles in the parking lot at any dog show and without a doubt, the official dog-mobile is a Dodge Grand Caravan! Cheap, car-like ride, holds lots of dogs and STUFF. Very reliable, too.
I ended up buying the Saab 9-5 V6 wagon, which I plan on owning 10 years like all other cars I've had. Have you read the posts on the Saab 9-5 BB, specifically on wagons? Good stuff there.
You've just gotta drive them both a couple of times, preferably set up the way you'll travel with the dogs (red...Irish?). Can you fit two crates in the back?
You've done your homework (mechanics, CR). You can't go wrong with either, if the cars are certified and have good warranties.
Have you had/heard good experiences with Sub/Saab dealerships in your area? Loaners?
Frankly, if I were between 25 and 40, I'd buy the Subie. It's a super car, driven by thousand of intelligent people who've done as much homework as you. Then you've always got that carrot, dangling out there to dream about. Past 40, it's easier to justify all the little touches that make the Saab such a joy to drive every day. First test: get in both cars and **close the door.** Which makes you feel better about quality and workmanship?
OK. I fly alot. Driving the 9-5 wagon is like being upgraded to first class on every trip. You get to your destination the same as everyone else. You just feel much better when you arrive.
Happy hunting!
Greg
If you buy well used, you can unload any car in a month or ten years without the anxiety of buying new and dealing with the instant depreciation.
Subaru is coming out with the next generation Outback and Legacy.They're available in Asia now Europe in the fall and here next spring. They are slightly bigger, roomier, with much more powerful engines available, and they will probably be a few thousand $$ more than current models. Check out the future models boards at Subaru.
Depending on how big your dogs are, taller wagons make things a lot easier.
Mark
1. No pickup. I imagine that the Saab would slay it in a 0-60 test.
2. Gas mileage. I get about 17-21 MPG in local, hilly traffic; 27-28 on an extended highway trip. I also imagine that the Saab would do better here too.
Otherwise, roomy, comfortable and reasonably priced.
AFA passive safety goes, the Subaru is a safe car, but there may not be a better crash-tested car out there than the 2002-2003 Saab 9-5.
Pricewise you can get a new Bean/VDC for what you would spend on a 2 year old Saab, so that's a bonus for the Subaru.
The biggest question you have to answer for yourself is what you want from your wagon. The Saab is more of a road machine, while the Subaru gives you an extra dimension of "go anywhere" capability. I know that the Bean/VDC probably rides and performs pretty well, and that the Saab has ESP and TCS to handle adverse weather conditions, but that's the basic distinction between the two. If you live in the snowbelt, or like to go off road a lot, I'd go with the Subaru. If you strictly want to stay on pavement, for everything but 6+ inches of snow, I'd go with the Saab.
Maybe someday I'll be able to answer that question for myself.
Granted, I have a base Outback and not a 6 cylinder version, but I have looked carefully at the LL Beans and VDC. These are nice cars, too, and would be a good choice. But in terms of overall comfort and driving fun, the Saab 9-5 wagon does it for me.
We have a 2002 Saab 9-5 Linear (base model) wagon but even with the least powerful engine that Saab offers I have never found it lacking. I've driven over a good number of the largest mountain passes in Colorado and have been amazed at the power this car has in accelerating up long uphill grades. The turbo helps deliver the horses even at 10,000+ feet. On downhill grades it's easy to hit 95 mph without even knowing it - the car is extremely stable at high speeds. Road trip gas mileage is very good, too. I average about 30 mpg on the expressway at 75-80. Our best mileage was 35 mpg on a trip between Vail and Ouray with a mix of express and 2-lane driving. On several occassions I've spent 18-hour days driving this car and have found it to be about as comfortable a car as you could want.
Reliablity of our Saab has been very good so far. If you are looking at used Saabs, you might skip the 1999 model year (no offense to any owners) as it was the intro year, and not rated very well by CR. The 9-5 has been continually improved over the years and according to some consumer organizations is one of the most reliable European cars.
My sister drives her 9-5 Arc in West Michigan during the winter, which gets considerable amounts of lake-effect snow. She's been been quite happy with the traction that her OEM tires deliver and says the car pulls right though heavy drifts. If you are considering a 9-5 Aero wagon, you will probably need to consider snow tires as the sport tires on the Aero are not recommended for snow use.
That's just my $.02, though. You'll need to get out and do some test driving on your own.
I brought a crate with me to test drive the Subaru (but it was a standard collapsible-- 28 in high...not a skinny travel one...oh, and I have Rhodesian Ridgebacks...reddish wheaten....and though I didn't, I wanted to name my new pup Clifford with an AKC name of Windy Ridge's Big Red Dog)...anyway...the crate fit, though two of that size would have to be turned sideways and be side entry, or would have to be the skinny ones (distance between the wheel wells in the Subie, in case you're interested, is 42 in....only 40 in the Saab, both are about 32-33 in high inside). Since I'd likely crate only for long road trips, which don't happen too often, am I crazy to take my dogs to the dealer and ask if I can see if they fit?
What I'd really like to do, but can't figure out how, is to drive them back-to-back just to cement what I like and dislike about each (without time, or my own car interfering with my memory!), but the Subie and Saab places are a distance from each other. Suggestions?
Oh, and price-wise, surprisingly enough, a 2000 Saab 4-cylinder is about the same, if not a little less than the 2001 LL Bean Subie. (I've been looking for a 2001-2 Saab, but can only find Aeros, which are obviously more expensive.)
But today I have owned a 2001 Bean for 2 years, and have about 30k miles on it. I've found it to be a very good car, and enjoy the driving experience very much. OK, it does appear reluctant to pick up off the line, but once the engine is up to speed it performs very nicely climbing on-ramps to the freeway. It WILL move quickly, and the engine pulls strongly from 3500-4000 revs and up.
I don't have dogs, but load it with camping gear quite often, it has lots of room and is quite a bit of fun driving on the local mountain roads leading to the California deserts.
At 30k I've only had to resurface the front brakes and replace pads, and my only complaint is a slight whine above 70mph.
Steve
If you can wait 'til next year the 2005 Legacy will have a turbo option, imagine that Forester XT with more space and a nicer interior. That's your ideal car, coming from an Si.
-juice
And juice, although AWD is apparently nice, I've never had it, and only rarely felt that I NEEDED it. And FWD gets better gas mileage!
All of that being said, however, the practical side of me is leaning toward the Subie. I'll be test driving (again) this afternoon, and making some decisions!
Steph
-juice
A used six-passenger Toyota Avalon may give you the passenger room and cargo space you need at a reasonable price and be more economical, reliable, and safer than some of the alternatives you are considering. The biggest problem with the Avalon may be that it is rated to carry only 900 pounds, which a family of six with cargo could easily exceed.
And as for safety, the IIHS has rated the Saab and Subaru virtually the same.
If you prefer a more sporty feel, the Legacy might be the way to go. I have not driven a Legacy GT (or a Saab), but with sport tuned suspension, it will feel more like the Saab than the Outback does. And it still offers the same great AWD system.
Just a side note, In my LLBean, I have managed to achive speeds of 100 miles an hour going uphill at 5,000 feet, so power shouldn't be a problem for you.
I was hoping to find a 2001 base or V6 model, but there are just not many around. I've found two 2000 9-5 Wagons with 30,000 miles on them, and although they are both AT, the sport mode makes them relatively fun to drive. Now I just have to decide between the two -- one's a Gary Fisher with sport wheels, but it comes with snow tires...biggest downside -- it's black; the other is deep blue (love it), but doesn't have all the "extras" of the Gary Fisher. Probably can't make a bad choice there.
Thanks everyone for your opinions and insight.
Oh, and sebbery, the Saab has TCS and a "winter" mode that starts the AT off in a lower gear...apparently it work pretty well in the snow. Granted, it is not 7.8 in of ground clearance and AWD, but my understanding is that it does a decent job in mild-moderate winter weather. The cars are, after all, Swedish. ;-)
I posted this link on the 9-5 board, but I'll post it here as well. fauxpaws, here's one of my "big red dogs". No best in show jokes please. :-)
http://www.3lefties.com/rhoridge/sadie.htm
Steph
-juice
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
Of course, this (First Drive) is just their initial impression. Things may change with their Full Road Test, which will give a more thorough review.
PS: Now that I've written this message, I've finally understood your post/joke, LOL. This late in the evening/morning, I'm a little slow. ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
-juice
For example, I really want dual zone air up front. I hate it when my husband freezes me out or burns me up when he is driving and controls the air. Not too many vehicles have that. I found that the Buick Rendezvous has most all the features I want (comfortable seating for 6, luxury features, sunroof, good gas mileage, good suspension for a comfortable ride), but will have bad depreciation. I'm not too sure what I think of it's looks either. But that would probably grow on me. I did post a new note under the Buick Rendezvous category.
-juice
(a) Midsize (not compact) wagon.
(b) Manual transmission.
(c) Cost not greater than $25-26K.
(d) Attractive looking (and more for sporty purposes than for family use).
If I were still a "young adult" I'd just pick up a Protege5, Subaru Impreza/WRX or similar compact wagon, but I'm looking for something a little bigger. It sure doesn't seem like finding a car to meet these specs would be all the hard, but I'm having a tough time with it:
Audi / BMW: too $$
Mazda Protege5, Toyota Matrix, VW Jetta, etc: too small
Volvo V40: not manual transmission
Volkswagen Passat: not manual transmission (though I don't know what "shiftable" really means)
What's left? Subaru Legacy & Outback?
I like the looks of the Mazda 6 Wagon, especially if equipped with the manual transmission and the more powerful engine, but it won't be out until sometime in 2004.
Can someone point me in the right direction?
The Legacy only comes with the 2.5l engine, for now. The H6 is rumored to come soon, we're not sure when; they are waiting to sort out a 5 speed manual to go with it. That would be the ticket for you.
Or, if you can wait, the 2005 Legacy will be very sporty, lighter (more aluminum) and offer two turbocharged engines, a 2.5T with 250-280hp and a twin turbo H6 with 350hp to go M3 hunting. The latter will be out of your price range, but the 2.5T should be close.
The Outback H6 only comes with automatic, but if you like those you can now find cloth H6 models for $23-24k, LL Beans for $26k (leather/double moonroof). But...Outbacks have long travel suspensions, and the H6 is tuned for quiet/luxury, not sportiness.
The Mazda 6 is just about my favorite FWD sedan in that class, but it does still have torque steer and no AWD option. The wagon sure looks nice, I love the way the seats are spring loaded and fold down.
You could get a Passat 1.8T and chip it, but that's still FWD. Audi A4 quattros are nice, but small.
You're right - there is a bit of a hole in the market. Someone should fill it!
-juice
-juice
- Passat wagons are indeed available with the standard MT, although you might have to search hard for one.
- Legacy/Outbacks have the MT in the 4 cylinder versions: Legacy SE, OB base and Limited
- Saab Linear - disregard sticker price, 2002's have significant discounts right now - maybe you can wheel and deal a bit more and get within your price range, especially if you want one with a MT.
.
I forgot to include the Forester XT. I did drive one last week and really liked it. I was quoted a price just shy of $24K. My only hesitation is that it gets pretty poor gas mileage (I've heard it's not much above 20 mpg). The 0-to-60-in-5.3 performance certainly grabs your attention, but I'd prefer adding a couple seconds to that time as a tradeoff for better gas mileage.
I guess it's like life - nothing's perfect...
The VW 1.8T, Subaru 2.5T, Subaru H6, and Saab all recommend premium fuel, which may be another consideration. Only the Legacy and Outback 2.5l do not.
Go drive a Legacy 2.5GT, see if it has enough umph for your needs. If so, it meets all your criteria.
-juice
I like the Volvo S40, but it is not as sporty as it could be. Volvo might be fixing that in the 2004 model. I am surprised that they didn't make this a sport model as they race this in BTCC- Brittish Touring Car Championships. Parts to make this better can be found but not cheap.
You might also look at the Ford Focus wagon and the new Mitsuibishi Lancer wagon. There are probably nice parts for those. But the Legacy GT is probably going to be the best drivers car for the money.
Focus wagon offers incredible space for its size, but reliability is a question mark.
Too bad they don't make an SVT wagon, LOL.
-juice
-juice