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Help Me Select a Wagon
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I am very interested in the 2004 VW passat (GL or GLS) since it has gotten such good ratings and appears to have a lot of what we are searching (styling, mpg etc) for. With good preparation, being frugal with the options, and not going for the V6 I believe we can lower the price to - say low/mid $20sK. The twist is that my wife's brother works as a mechanic for a Ford dealership and we qualify for the Ford's D-plan savings. We are also therefore looking at the 2004 Ford Focus ZTW (for which we could afford a lot more options) which would likely come to the ~$17K, I believe. Although Consumer Reports likes it (but below VW Passat) and I have seen a number of other decent reviews for the Focus, I have also seen/heard a few things that concern me - past reliability and the true cost to own among others.
I am unsure if this a "no-brainer" and I am unconsciously (or consciously) trying to not like the Focus for past transgressions. Obviously the lower price is very attractive but I also want to purchase a decent car that we can drive for a long time.
Advice and insight from this community would be helpful.
So then the question is, is the Passat worth more? It is bigger and a lot more luxurious.
The Focus has a new 2.3l PZEV engine which has had good reviews, but I have not sampled it yet. The warranty is only 3/36, but you could get an extended warranty and still spend less.
Drive both, which one do you prefer? If you can afford both, just pick the one you like more.
-juice
Are you talking the Outback(s)?
Or the vanilla version Legacy?
We do like the look of the Outbacks but they have looked to be in the upper 20s and out of our price range...
A base Outback starts at about $20 grand, and subtract only the moonroof. For $24k you can get the Limited with leather and a moonroof, for $26k you can get the 6 cylinder LL Bean model.
It would fall between the Focus and Passat in size and price. Caveat - the 2005 model is about to arrive, probably by June, so the 2004 will soon be the previous generation. That's why they're such bargains now, though.
-juice
Raybear, I get the distinct impression you have a somewhat vested interest in Subaru ... and Juice your wife owns a Legacy, correct? So can I say that in *your* opinions, the Subaru is my best choice?
Any other thoughts out there?
I'm sharing prices I see locally at no-haggle dealers. Cali does tend to have slightly higher prices, FWIW.
Subaru was the best choice for us. I emphasize that because we all have personal tastes and unique needs. We wanted a good value but also extra features like AWD, a moonroof (ours is aftermarket), and room for the 2 kids and our stroller.
Passat 4Motion had those but for a lot more money, at the time they had the V6 only and a wagon would have been about $31k. Now VW has a 1.8T 4Motion so prices would be a little closer.
We actually looked at the Highlander and the CR-V. The Subie was in our opinions the best value, by far.
-juice
I wish Chevy had made it more of a wagon and less of a hatch...er, sorry, "extended sedan". )
-juice
Passat is a beautiful design, great car and always highly rated by CR, but has a reputation for bad reliability down the road, especially after the warranty period. Just something to keep in mind.
The downside of owning one, of course, is that they depreciate rapidly. But, if you keep your cars for a long time (we usually keep'em 10 years), it's not a issue.
On the third hand, you could take advantage of the depreciation and buy a used one of recent vintage.
The Focus is more nimble, efficient, fun, and of course it's cheaper.
More importantly, I think it's a better design. The Taurus wagon uses the sedan's doors. You really have to bend over to fasten kids in car seats, for instance.
Focus is more upright, and the rear door is more square. Plus EPA categorizes it as a mid size.
Get the 2.3l PZEV version and it's clean and quick at the same time.
-juice
Otherwise I would likely agree with Juice that Focus might be the better wagon of the two, especially if you value tight handling, and perhaps cargo capacity is not much lower, if any, in Focus than a Taurus wagon, given Focus more boxy shape, though Focus likely quite a bit narrower. Both can be a good bargain based on price, new or used.
With all the new crossovers, there are now a lot of choices, if you do not narrow your choices just to the traditional "wagon".
Any how, the Freestyle is replacing the Taurus wagon, I believe, and I find that package more appealing. I snuck into one at the Philly Show, even though it was roped off, and space utilization was impressive, the 3rd row was better than the one in the bigger Cadillac SRX.
Plus it'll get AWD, so it'll move into the Crossover category.
-juice
-juice
I currently own a Taurus SW 1993 with a 3rd seat and wnat to buy a similar wagon that is very reliable.
What are my options and what would you reommend?
Although my Ford F-150 and Blazer LT burn more fuel than the Corolla wagon, each is much more comfortable for my wife and I to use on the highway with higher seating and smoother ride.
The 2001 Odyssey EX owned by one son and the 2002 Grand Caravan Sport owned by another son are each much more comfortable than any station wagon I have been in.
New comers have forward facing 3rd rows nowadays, like the Caddy SRX, Pacifica, and upcoming Ford Freestyle. But none have proven reliability, since they're essentially new models.
-juice
The Toyota Highlander is almost a wagon and will be available with hybrid power (for better mpg and performance) in a few months.
Note: We find our Cruiser's fuel range rather short for long road trips. Wish it had a bigger tank.
I'm a little miffed that they never released the PT Panel they showed three years back; that was way cool. PT Panel with the turbo and a faux woodie package... just add a rack for the boards and point me to the beach!
The SUV’s I’ve found with seating for 7 are too long and gas guzzlers. I want something with decent gas mileage and low emissions. I had figured my next car would be a Prius, but then family intervened.
Mini-vans are not good option for me, because I get car sick without an open window, and I’m guessing my kids will too. The back windows must roll down. Also, mini-vans really have no cargo carrying capacity, and I need to be able to carry groceries and a double stroller and the like. I’d be open to a mini-van if the windows all rolled down.
I’m not looking to ever go off road. I’m looking for the quintessential soccer mom car. But I live in Boston, so it needs to have good pick-up (ever tired to merge in Boston?) and AWL would be good too. In any case, traction in the snow is a must. I keep my cars a long time at least 10 years, so I need to be able to use the car for car pooling. Oh, and I’d prefer that the car isn’t too long (say under 200 inches) so I can parallel park, but I may need to go longer to get what I want. Other things on my wish list include: power windows, a sun roof, cloth seats > leather seats (but I’m flexible), air conditioning in the back, and heated seats would be nice.
Does my dream car exist?
Joy Elyse
You are not going to find wagons or SUVs with access to the third row without folding down part of the second row - unless a rear facing third row is available.
If you were considering a Prius there is nothing in the wagon, SUV, or miniVan size that will get even half the mpg, though next model year there will be three with the same hybrid technology that will offer better mpg than the models offered today. You might want to wait for a hybrid Toyota Highlander. Three rows of forward facing seats, plenty of space for carrying (with the rear seats stowed), and better performance and mpg that what you can get today.
You really belt the dogs in?
If so, a miniVan is the only way to not have to deal with permanent (not have to remove) kid seats in the middle row and have a forward facing third row.
I had a miniVan for 18 years and found it far superior in kid hauling (kids, bikes, parents) than the seven seat SUV I have now.
BTW, seven seat SUVs are not necessarily long. Mine is only 188 inches and I can get high schoolers into the third row with no problem. However, my old miniVan was much more versatile. The big sliding side doors on miniVans makes kid (and dog) entry and exit very easy.
Dogs like to be belted in, eh? What about harnessing them in the cargo area, fastened to a cargo tie-down? Some of those are very sturdy.
If that would work, check out the new Outback. You can get a PZEV model if you're in certain states, too. Get a dog compartment divider and you're golden.
If that doesn't work, the Toyota Sienna and the Mazda MPV minivans both have rear windows that go down.
Good luck.
-juice
While I put my lab behind a dog/cargo barrier , I get the idea of what youre looking for and you won't do better than a Mazda MPV. The size is a little smaller than the other minivans, which makes maneuvering easier. The engine is plenty peppy, the handling and ride are excellent and it gets good milage with regular gas. The MPV is the minivan of choice for folks whose other car is a sports car!
A mini van with rear doors that slide out of the way is such an improvement over a car or even an SUV when trying to get kids and dogs in and out...you dont have to maneuver your body around the open door while simultaneously making sure you dont bang your door into the car beside you, especially with a child in your arms. Ive noticed my 70 lb. dog is rather exhuberant on exiting the car and doesnt care one bit about pushing the door open, the car next to us or my insurance premiums.
The Mazda middle row "slide-by-side" seats move sideways to best suit your loading requirements and if you put both seats in the outboard position the kids cant reach each other from their car seats to fight. The third row bench is easy to access from either side door and the dogs can enjoy the breeze from the power rear windows built into the sliding rear doors on both sides. There is plenty of usable storage behind the third row bench seat or that seat easily stows completely into the rear storage area creating even more storage. Remove the middle row seats and you have a flat cargo floor capable of hauling construction materials or a new washer dryer combo.
The only things Mazda doesnt offer in the MPV are a Navigation system ,AWD and 60/40 split rear bench;the first one you can do better with a portable unit and the last one you wont use unless the dogs want to sit very close together back there. Options include everything from canopy airbags to rear DVD entertainment system. The optional power moonroof is the biggest in the business, perfect for squirrel-watching by the dogs.
To make it even easier, special financing and cash rebates make it possible now to drive away in a new MPV with very attractive financing and over $5000 below MSRP. Depending on your checkbook and your preferences, you can get an ES trim model with EVERYTHING, including the DVD system, for under $26K. If you dont want leather or power sliding rear doors, you can get an LX model, with the same engine and seating options, for MUCH less. Compare that to waiting months for a Toyota Sienna in whichever color happens to come in for $34K. I would buy another MPV myself if they offered AWD/4 x 4 like they have in years past.
good luck and happy car shopping.
mark
I'm definitely not going to get anything right away, so I'll probably try the Freestyle when it comes out...though I'd probably use it much as Juice described. At least it would have the flexibility to carry more passengers. I'll give the Subaru another try when the 2005 comes out. I test drove the 2004 right after the Volvo, and it just couldn't measure up in my opinion. Once I go that route, there are a lot more options. For instance, I like the Jeep Grand Cherokee Lorado that we rented. (I think that will likely be my husband's next vehicle.)
If people have more options, please keep them coming! BTW, in every review of the Sienna, they talk about the Odyssey. Do the windows roll down in the back of the Odyssey?
Joy Elyse
Have an MPV in the family and it has proven to be a pleasure to drive and easily carries 7, though the space behind the third seat isn't large.
Generally, the Odyssey is quicker and corners better than the Sienna. The Sienna is more luxury oriented and tends to cost more. Honda has been having problems with transmissions for the last five model years, with the Odysseys built before year 2004 now subject to recall and repair.
Joy Elyse
PS: Our '92 Madza Protege ran 185,000 miles without too much difficulty.
-juice
Also keep an eye out for a Sienna hybrid in 2-3 years. Toyota is planning to expand their hybrid drive system into more of their product line.
The MPV, on the other hand, I really liked. I love the way it drove. I found it comfortable in all three seating positions. I wish it came with a few more features/safety option. I don't like that side airbags are only available in the front seat. (Please correct me if I have that wrong!) I also wish it came in AWD.
That leaves me with the Volvo XC70 and the Mazda MVP. I think I'm going to hold off until the Freestyle is available, and give that a try too. I really liked the Mazda, but I think the Volvo makes me feel more secure. What do you guys think?
Joy Elyse
Don't settle for anything less than the satisfaction you felt with the MPV.
-juice
Has anyone had a chance to drive/compare these 2005 models? My biggest question is the longevity of the 2.5 turbo-charged motor vs. the bigger 3.0 with the same power. How much extra wear-and-tear needs to be factored into choosing the smaller turbo-charged motor over the bigger 6 cylinder that has the same power? Also, is it possible to get charcoal interior in the 3.0 VDC model? The cheaper 2.5 XT looks to come in either taupe or charcoal, but the more expensive model doesn’t have this option!?!
Thanks for any info
IF you have a concern about engine longevity I suggest you use synthetic oil in turbo engines.
Keep in mind it is not total hp or total torque that makes for a peppy driving experience. It is at what rpm the power is available. Generally a turbo provides the power at a lower rpm and therefore can be quicker than the normally aspirated, similarly powered vehicle.
I drove a Legacy GT with that turbo engine and the performance will WOW you, it's amazingly fast. Torque is a lot better than the H6 and it comes on sooner, lag is nil. It's not as quiet or refined as the H6 but it'll knock your socks off. 0-60 in 5.9 seconds with the manual, about 6.5 with the auto, definitely quicker than the H6.
I wrote a full review in the Town Hall Test Drive Team thread, under News & Views. Subaru invited me to preview these cars at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, it was amazing.
Either choice is fine, but I go with the turbo. It costs less and performs better.
-juice
preowned 3series sportwagons - definitely get the sport package. Price still high especially if CPO.
preowned A4/S4 Avants - nice interior, good performance from V6...avoid 1.8T (per Audi Townhall forums).
IS300 SportCross - have yet to drive. Any inputs here?!?
Saab 9-5 SportWagon - have yet to drive. Any inputs?
Mazda6 Wagon - have yet to drive. Have heard good things!!
Am I leaving anything out?? Scenario - young couple with 1child and a dog with ~$25k or less to spend. Thanks guys!!
Depending on how much behind the second row space you need a Cruiser Turbo might fit the bill for something fun, roomy, and well within budget.
Have a PT GT (high output turbo). People and the 80 pound dog easily fit, but the space behind the back seat is more like a large trunk area than a wagon. My little PT can carry larger and longer objects than my wagon body MDX.
Have two friends with Subaru wagons and they have had no trouble with them.
Of the list that mtv65 mentions any BMW wagon would be a very nice car, but it will be hard finding one within budget.
A couple of other nice wagons are Jetta and Passat, though like Audi they seem more prone to needing repair than others.
To me the IS was rather tight inside, even tighter than the Subaru WRX wagon.
Saab is apparently becoming SAABaru with Subaru clones for some models (not the 9-5) so I wonder what kind of resale a 9-5 will have.
The 2005 Legacy and Outback are nice, and a Legacy GT wagon would fall in your price range, too (the Outback costs more).
Forester XT is a little rocket and can be had for $23-25k or so, but it's more upright, quasi-SUV. Cargo space is great for its size, so your dog could stand up inside the cargo area.
PT Turbo, Mazda3 2.3l, Focus SVT 5 door might make the cut for smaller options. Or the WRX wagon, Saab 9-2x, Matrix XRS, Vibe GT hatches.
If you're a Mopar guy check out the Magnum, you can probably get one with the 3.5l for that price level.
Good luck shopping and keep us posted.
-juice