Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
How about Edmunds.com? You work for the company, it not it credible enough?
.
>> my guess is that wiki, NYT, and the other "credible" sources all are feeding off each other to get their facts.
All these sources are actually feeding from Subaru: Subaru used to report the same 90/10-50/50 numbers every year untill 2004. They stopped from 2005.
I feel pretty stupid now.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?s=63224e7e4c967b60711c2e3e28c72033&- p=2088053&postcount=7
-mike
What video? The one made at Subaru dealership? A subaru salesman is the last person I’d trust. Can you offer an independent video/commentary?
.
>> I'm guessing the 2009 Forester will be able to accomplish the same thing. Have you looked at the video.
That's just a guess.
The biggest issue for these systems as I can tell, is when only one wheel from each axle has traction. I'm guessing the 2009 Forester will not have a problem with that scenario, based on the previous video, but earlier models will just spin their wheels.
Okay, you don't have to trust the video, but I believe it to be representative of what is being shown, since I've seen other videos.
May be Forester can power up a ramp in subaru paid video at subaru dealership, but otherwise it's seems to be tough in a real life conditions. I wonder why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tMgWtlxeb8&NR=1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g6H3IOtE6Q8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guTQWkpPFa4
And, if the Subie AWD is part-time as you claim, then the Outlander AWD is certainly part-time as well.
Actually, according to your definition, FWD mode, split ratio, etc, there aren't any real AWD cars on the road in this price range.
If all 4 wheels are on ice or banana-peel surface, __no__ AWD system is going to be of much help.
But the insofar as I know any Toyota/Lexus "AWD" model with a sideways mounted engine is just as non-viable.
The only "viable" AWD model that I am aware of with a sideways mounted engine is the Acura RDX with SH-AWD. My daily driver happens to be a mostly non-viable '01 AWD RX300 since I don't need AWD "viability" all that often. I have a '94 AWD Ford Aerostar for those times, and the RX has special modifications allowing me to use REAR tire chains for the few times I get caught out in adverse conditions.
Because those are the same wheels you use for directional control of the vehicle once wheelspin/slip develops regaining roadbed traction is of the ULTIMATE importance. So, TC will activate virtually INSTANTANEOUSLY when wheelspin/slip develops on one of these vehicles.
TC, to prevent the potential for EXTREME torque stear, will quickly activate braking of BOTH front wheels simultaneously. Since this is an issue of ULTIMATE importance TC will also INSTANTLY dethrottle the engine, not giving the driver even a millisecond to react and lift the gas pedal, unlike TC on many RWD vehicles which often allow 100's of milliseconds for the driver to react and "feather" the throttle.
To that end Toyota has just announced a new feature for RWD and R/AWD vehicles, a TC "sub-mode". Once the driver activates the sub-mode TC feature a limited level, period, of engine torque driven rear wheelspin/slip will be allowed without TC automatically activating.
Subaru: Symmetrical AWD....
Idiots.
All three of those YouTube videos show, indicate, that the Subaru AWD system performed very well, even SUPER well IMMHO. The only thing that was lacking would be more traction between the tire tread and the "road" surface. IMMHO even a 4X4 with locked center and rear diff'ls would have needed tire chains, or heavily "lugged" wheels, in the examples shown.
The rough road test Subaru devised (and claimed only their vehicles could traverse (not true, I suspect - the vids showed only the CRV getting stuck ) ) showed the '09 Forester clearly spinning wheels and taking several seconds trying to figure out whether or not to brake the spinning wheels.
So in that case, the Subaru system is not "pro-active".
It would be useful to know just how fast the Subaru VDC responds to momentary loss of wheel traction/skidding in normal driving. That's all the '09 Forester has (aside from front/back transfer clutch control ) to manage torque and wheel slip.
There are no LSD's at either end of the vehicle.
The STI, by comparison, does have a Torson LSD in the rear and a Bevel LSD up front.
Meanwhile, other videos of the Land Rover LR2 showed this vehicle on a similar road, and its unloaded, in-air wheels did not pick up speed or spin wildly. That vehicle, per other videos and close reading of specs, apparently has a "pro-active" system.
These are not sophisticated 4wd systems. I owned a Jeep with the top end 4wd system, which delivered almost 100% torque to any one wheel. I had plenty of opportunity to test it in deep snow for the years I owned it. You could tell, barely, when torque was transferred to the front wheels and then passed around as wheels slipped. This happened almost instantly.
These AWD systems are meant to keep the vehicle from getting stuck. The torture tests shows the limitations at the extreme, but it does show the vehicle will or will not get stuck. The LR has the hardware for real offroading, but it isn't very nimble. My old Jeep would not spin any wheel off the ground more than 1/2 turn.
So I offered total 6 credible sources, covering 2000 models of 4EAT Forester and Outback (read previous posts), incl. Wikipedia, NYTimes, Car and Driver, Popular Mechanics and Edmunds.com. They all say that split was 90/10 to 50/50
And those sources are all wrong.
See the pic below as proof - it shows the FWD fuse, labeled clear as day. The fuse box even includes a spare fuse and a tool to use to insert them, so you don't need to buy anything.
The Outlander has the switch on the center console. Subaru's is less convenient - it's in the fuse box. Both have the same effect, though - the rear axle is disengaged completely.
When the Subaru goes in this 100% FWD mode, i.e. power split 100/0, it will light up a light in the dash "AWD", indicating the system is disengaged. Here is a pic of that light, from cars101:
chelentano himself said that because the Outlander had a FWD mode, that was proof it could go 100/0, completely FWD.
For the same exact reason, the Forester can, too.
All of those sources are wrong. End of story.
Ground clearance, first and foremost. The original Forester only had 7.5".
The new XT has 8.9", more than the Outlander, FWIW.
The 2nd reason would be the overhangs.
Again, that was a weak spot on the early Foresters, but that has been addressed. The 2009 Forester has an approach angle of 24.8 degrees.
That beats the Outlander's 21 degrees.
The Forester's departure angle is also 24.8 degrees. This is smart design. If you can get the front bumper past without scraping, you can get the rear bumper past without getting caught up. Very smart.
The Outlander's departure angle is only 18 degrees (source: Car & Driver). That presents the same problem early Forester's had - the long rear overhang can get caught up on obstacles.
This is poor design. You may get the front bumper past (21 degree angle) but not the rear (only 18 degrees).
That answer your question, I believe. :P
How much more? 0.4” – it’s a marginal difference.
.
>> The 2009 Forester has an approach angle of 24.8 degrees. That beats the Outlander's 21 degrees.
Your degrees and fractions of inch would not help in these situations. The Subaru overrated AWD system just can’t get it up. I can use your quote: "this is poor design":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tMgWtlxeb8&NR=1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g6H3IOtE6Q8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guTQWkpPFa4
The Outlander on the other hand has plenty of "degrees" and ground clearance to do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3arUMr2PsI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RUrT_0tvn8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0kdzSklDWE&feature=related
http://s215240594.onlinehome.us/dakar08.jpg
Wow! Fuse insertion - what a high tech way to control Subaru AWD! Fuses, 20-year old awd systems, 40-year old transmissions, and finally first diesel engine in 2008: all the exciting technology coming from Subaru!
The fuse only proves what I have always said: 4EAT Subaru is practically a FWD car by default or part-time AWD, whichever way you like.
Then the Outlander is the same, you pick it. As an aside if you pit and Outlander of the same year with the Forester, I don't think the Outlander would have been able to move.
90/10 vs. 85/15 - it's a marginal difference.
85/15 is in Auto mode. But Outlander also has a true full-time 4WD Lock mode, which by default delivers more than twice of the rear torque vs. Forester. The
Forester has only one part-time on-demand mode. That's why this practically FWD vehicle can't get up to hill on these videos.
Nope. The Outlander also has a true full-time 4WD Lock mode, which by default delivers more than twice of the rear torque vs. Forester.
.
>> if you pit and Outlander of the same year with the Forester, I don't think the Outlander would have been able to move.
You "don't think"? It's only a wishfull thinking. The Forester's AWD system is about 20 years old, so the current Forester is not any better. The 4-speed auto transmission is another subaru antique technology invented by Romans. But forget that lousy 6-8 speed and Twin Clutch transmissions, Subaru is working hard on CVT now!
Okay, let me rephrase that: "I know". How do I know, because the reviews of a previous generation Forester against an Outlander said the Outlander kept spinning it's wheels while the Forester didn't.
The Forester's AWD system is about 20 years old, so the current Forester is not any better. The 4-speed auto transmission is another subaru antique technology invented by Romans. But forget that lousy 6-8 speed and Twin Clutch transmissions, Subaru is working hard on CVT now!
The antiquated Forester XT will absolutely dust the Outlander. All the gears in the world won't help the Outlander.
Nope. The Outlander also has a true full-time 4WD Lock mode, which by default delivers more than twice of the rear torque vs. Forester.
Nope, the Forester has the same system as the Outback, which has been shown in torture tests to climb up "rollers" with one wheel. So while there isn't a video of a 2009 Forester doing the same thing, we'll have to wait. The advanced Subaru AWD doesn't need a lock mode to compensate for an otherwise mediocre AWD system as in the Outlander with multiple dubious modes of operation.
The CVT will be an oldie but goodie too, seeing as how Leonardo da Vinci invented it about 500 years ago. (link)
Shall we get back to the topic, which is how explaining how they work?
Great find, Steve. Leonardo da Vinci would be proud finally seeing CVT on Subaru.
Yea, I have seen the Subaru sales videos. I also have seen how it can Subaru can "climb up" in real life conditions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tMgWtlxeb8&NR=1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g6H3IOtE6Q8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guTQWkpPFa4
Try these in your Outlander:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gwrrbYiLcjA&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YonP3_c-2Nc&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SodoaksRJAU&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_ZwfRpk8XYo&feature=related
Here's more:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=n2b-fMQ4tdk&feature=related
.
>> You keep posting videos of a circa 2003 Subaru.
The reason I post videos from previous generation of Subaru is that Subaru AWD system is nearly 20 years old. Previous Outlander is irrelevant since the new generation of Outlander has brand new AWD system.
.
>> Do you know why there are no videos of an Outlander getting stuck. Nobody in their right mind would take a previous generation Outlander into any slick situation. It would have to be towed out.
...if you want to see previous Outlander offroad videos, they are available and they are impressive. Be my guest:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uUXzze_pclE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qHgJLyc8ygU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HJatMgzxb80
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x-VYjJiiYfg&feature=related
And you are right, so far "there are no videos of an Outlander getting stuck".
Actually a lot of us want to see the impressive performance of the new 2009 Forester, both on road and off road. Let's see the Outlander complete these same courses. It can't, it would bottom out. As far as the mods, let's see an Outlander... why hasn't anyone done it? Maybe it's not a suitable platform for doing this type of thing.
The reason I post videos from previous generation of Subaru is that Subaru AWD system is nearly 20 years old. Previous Outlander is irrelevant since the new generation of Outlander has brand new AWD system.
Previous Outlander is irrelevant...yes it is. As far as a 20 year old system, I would take it in a heartbeat over the idiotic switches and acclerator position based sensing of the Outlander. At least I can step on the gas without checking the road conditions first.
I can post at least 20 to 30 other videos showing situations where the Outlander would just give up. But at this point, this thread has become a video war. I'll just wait until there is some credible videos of the Outlander in action. Not some shots climbing a slightly wet hill, which is probably at the limit of the Outlanders capabilities.
95% of Outlander owners will never move the switch out of AWD Auto mode.
3% of Outlander owners will ocassionally use FWD mode.
2% of Outlander owners will ocassionally use AWD Lock mode.
The only direct comparo we've seen favored the Forester. :P
Challenge Forester owners in your area, see if yours can do things theirs cannot.
And you completely dodged the 100/0 point I proved.
I guess you can't handle being wrong, and have to change the subject.
-mike
LoL! That sounds like a wimpy version of Jack Nicholson! "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"
Good thing you put that smiley at the end, however. We don't need flames here.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
You are funny. You "proved" what I’ve been saying all along, befor you 've even "proved" it: 4EAT Subaru is nearly are FWD cars. :--) On April 30 I’ve said:
"The 4-speed auto Subaru practically defaults to FWD with on-demand torque to the rear. Subaru does not offer an official number even in regards to 10%. Why are they so shy? I suspect there is even less then 10%"
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.eea4ead/1055
Now you proved it! Great! Make sure you carry a fuse in a pocket :--)
Subaru keeps its customers up to date with antique technology. Fuses, 20-year old part-time awd systems, 50-year old transmissions, and finally first diesel engine in 2008: wow! Now they finally try to develop a CVT tranny, which was invented by Leonardo da Vinchi 500 years ago: interesting contrast to the Evo's Twin Clutch SST marvel :--)
Don't forget the 112 year old boxer engine and the 5500+ year old wheels.
FYI - Subaru developed and used a CVT in the Justy from 1989-1994.
BTW, Mitsubishi uses a 58 year old V6 engine and who knows how old of an inline-4 engine. Also, their diesels are a 116 year old design.
Geez, subaru still did not upgrade the 5500+ year old wheels!
Yeah, and the heritage from that really spilled over into the Outlander.
One is the default power split, which you keep saying is 90/10, but the letter from SoA contradicts that.
The other is the maximum torque to the front wheels, which the FWD mode proves can be 100%.
You bragged about the Outlander having this capability (why else would you bring that up unless you thought the Forester could not?), well, the Forester does too. :P
My ramp challenge still stands. We've all seen a Forester with the electronically controlled variable transfer clutch successfully climb with only one axle at a time, the question is can the Outlander do the same thing?
Furthermore, the Forester should be re-tested to determine if it's traction/stability control system can succeed at shifting power side to side, since we already know it can do it front to rear. :shades:
The Outlander doesn't have fuses? Does it have a circuit breaker or something? I'd love to see that.
20-year old part-time awd systems
It's full-time, always adjusting. The fact that you still make that claim shows you know little about it.
contrast to the Evo's Twin Clutch SST marvel
November 07, Straightline:
"the all-new Mitsubishi Evo has hit a snag with its Dual Clutch transmission. It turns out that some last-minute glitches have turned up"
Here's Autoblog's take on the same issue:
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/11/11/dual-clutch-transmission-delayed-for-mitsubis- - hi-evo-x/
Personally, I marvel at the fact that only 44% of Mitsubishi customers are satisfied with dealer repairs, so I wouldn't want to be the first guinea pig to take my chances with something unproven.
Isn't that 60 year old technology as well? Just want to be clear Subaru isn't the only manufacturer to use old and outdated technology. :shades
Think about it - the Outlander is much heavier than the EVO and carries a much bigger payload.
I was the one that told chelentano that transmission was on the way, but the postponement happened so who knows if it will be ready for the Outlander this fall.
Wrong. That’s what SoA says in that letter, and note, that the word NEVER is all-capped by Subaru: “It will NEVER be 0/100 or 100/0. Each wheel/axle will always have some power. It is never that all power is to either axle.”
also from Subaru Director Mike McHale: “the front to rear split is based upon the lockup percentage of the transfer clutch, which could be as diverse as 90/10 or up to 50/50 depending on power input/grip needs”. Same were said by several other credible independent online sources. What other evidence do you need? Do you really think you know more than NY Times, cars101.com, Wikipedia, Popular Mechanics, Edmunds.com, Car and Driver and Subaru of America? “I guess you can't handle being wrong”.
.
>> The other is the maximum torque to the front wheels, which the FWD mode proves can be 100%.
It proves nothing. The existence of “fuse” interface is not a prove, it’s your wishful thinking. They might just left it for future development. The Outlander, for instance, has fuses for Wiper Deicer, Headlight Washer, and Power Liftgate. Does it mean I can say now, that the Outlander has Power Liftgate feature? Cool, gang, I gotta power liftgate!
“I guess you can't handle being wrong”.
.
You are bragging again about that Subaru sales video made at Subaru dealership. A subaru salesman is the last person I’d trust. May be Forester can power up a ramp in subaru paid video at subaru dealership, but otherwise it's seems to be tough to do in a real life conditions. The humiliating Subaru AWD real life uphill performance is well depicted here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tMgWtlxeb8&NR=1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g6H3IOtE6Q8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guTQWkpPFa4
Some 60-year old technologies still remain advanced for many with limited financial and technologial resources. Nuclear technology is a good example.
Well I guess the STIs 20 year old technology is better, and more advanced than the EVOs 60 year technology. On the track the EVO would rule, on a dusty, dirty rallye type trail the STI would rule. A good example of technological acheivement being less useful.
Well, yes if you talk to the right people to find out the "real" story. :shades OR, you can't admit someone might know something you don't
Well, you "guess" in fact! What's the STIs 20 year old technology? 6-speed manual tranny? It's little longer that that. The subaru AWD is in fact 20-years old, while EVO's Twing Clutch SST and S-AWC AWD both are brand new generation.
.
>> on a dusty, dirty rallye type trail the STI would rule.
"Would"? That's your wishfull thinking :--)