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Mazda Protegé

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Comments

  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    They should raise the compression ratio. I would think with only a 9.1:1 ratio, it would still be able to use regular fuel. I know the VW's 1.8T can use regular (but it's not recommended), and it has 180hp from 1.8 liters. But also, said 1.8 also has 5 valves per cylinder too. And torque is excellent as well.
  • th83th83 Member Posts: 164
    I can't wait until I can go drive a Pro. I had school up until Wednesday and have had to work from then until tomorrow. Looks like Monday will be my first chance to go look unless I can get my friend to let me drive his DX:). It will be interesting to compare the Pro to my recent experience with a Jetta 1.8T. The Jetta is a nice car but there is no way I can afford a $23.5k car and I wouldn't even dream of getting a Jetta with the anemic 2.0. Even then it still costs about $20k with the equipment I want. I thought about Sentras but since you can't get a sunroof on a GXE I quickly removed it from my "go see" list. I don't like the back of it anyway. I also had the Civic on my list before I heard so many people trashing its handling and interior materials. The new Corolla isn't a bad car but it looks weird. Can't wait til' Monday! Thanks again for the help Dale, big_h, newcar and Dinu!

    Later!

    Tom
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    Equipped similarly, the Jetta 1.8T comes in at $21K invoice. Add $500 to that, and it's a pretty good deal. The Protege is a great car as well (I owned 2 before my Jetta). It will cost less than the VW will, so good luck with it.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "They should raise the compression ratio."

    No, they should lower the compression ratio and use more boost.

    On the Mazda 6: A british publication called it's interior "VW like".
  • chicagoprochicagopro Member Posts: 1,009
    I resemble that remark! :)

    --Dale
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    Sorry, I don't know alot about the inside of car engines. I just know I want some response when I push the pedal down. :)
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    the lower the compression, the more boost you can play with.

    By the way, the 5 valve per cylinder thing really doesn't give you any real benefit over a 4 valve design despite what VW's marketing guys will tell you. One of the major motorsports (F1 maybe?) tried that and went back to 4 valve designs if I remember correctly.

    Not to take anything away from the 1.8t. That's one sweet engine. But it's sweet because of the Turbo, not the valve design.
  • dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    Yes, I do think they are being conservative with the boost. If they want to make more, they would need to actually lower the compression ratio, and probably beef up internals. They are being conservative so that they can basically strap on a turbo to the existing 2.0 without modifying its comp. ratio and internals and still end up with a reliable package (a package that could easily be strapped onto an existing NA 2.0) - in the factory tuned world, bean counters always make the designers keep a good amount of head room in their designs for the sake of reducing warranty claims.
  • the_big_hthe_big_h Member Posts: 1,583
    and that is a good thing, IMO, because:

    a. increases reliability for those that use the car for daily commuting.

    b. more head room means more space for the tuners to maximize untapped potential.
  • dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    yes, it is a good thing in general. Once again, though, if the price on this car gets too high, folks will squawk about the power.

    Actually, I can see the reviews already - "The only criticism we had of the MP3 was with its lack of power. Mazda has taken care of that with the new Mazdaspeed Pro. Well, sort of. It seems like Mazda should be getting more power given the addition of a turbo, particularly when the premium paid for the MS3 over the MP3 puts it in the same price range as X,Y,Z, any one of which will out hustle down the drag strip ..."

    Whatever. We shall see. FWIW, I prefer handling to power, if and only if the price is commensurate with the levels of each (a personal preference and accounting, of course). Ideally you'd get both, but that generally gets too expensive for my budget.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    well the only thing with being conservative with the power output is that even if the potential is there, you can't charge the consumer on the potential. Well you could, but your not going to get a lot of buyers. If it's going to be rated at 170hp, then it needs to be priced at a 170 hp - compact car price (ie around $19K-$20K). Wonder if they tested at higher boost but it caused reliability problems?
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    If they saddle the car with the AWD that the Mazda Sport20 has in the Japanese market, that will make it even slower. I don't think they will though. But still, you would think there still would be more power at even $22K.

    The 1.8T VW is $22K or so, and it comes with 180 or 200hp (dyno says close to 200, but they say 180). Make the Mazda at least have that much.
  • nematodenematode Member Posts: 448
    1) AWD or RWD. I prefer AWD tuned to understeer a little. I dont need bias control or anything like that but I would like 40F/60R permenant torque split from an all mechanical system if possible (torsen like).
    2) 200hp minimum. I'm OK with a bump to 2.2L if thats what it takes to get it to drink pump gas and be fairly reliable.
    3) Absolutely must come in a wagon (P5) form.
    4) Aboslutely must have leather as an option. I have a dog that likes to swim. Cloth seats and wet dog just dont mix well.
    5) 5spd is fine but 6spd would also be nice.

    Other options I would pay even more for:
    1) HID lamps
    2) Tractions control (with defeat switch)
    3) Getting the spoiler removed.
    4) Real fog lights.

    If it sounds like a BMW 330Xi on the discount rack....it is. Thats what I want. Subaru is close but the WRX is really ugly to my eyes.
  • dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    Keep in mind that the "180" hp Jetta weights about 3050 lbs, where as the 170 hp MS3 will weight about 2850 lbs. 200 lbs isn't a huge difference, but neither is "10" hp.

    Actually, to me, more significant is the fact that the VW makes about 175 lb-ft of torque at around 2000 rpm, while the MS3 makes 155 lb-ft at around 4500 rpm. The torque curve on the VW engine is flat, and comes on relatively quickly.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    MS3: as you all already said, Mazda NEEDS to price it right or it will flop. And why not make it in Rally Blue, FireEngine Red, Carbon Silver/Gray...I would not pay more than $22.000 CDN for it. I might pay $25.000 if it has 200HP, a 6 spd and NOT that fugly stereo. WAY too many blue lights on that MP3 player. Ugly! Anyways, Mazda needs to make it a REGULAR PRODUCTION car. 2.000 units for NA is very little to have an impact. I bet a lot of people out there that don't own a PRO or own one but are not "car nuts" have no idea the MP3 existed....

    LX-vs-ES: I don't think here in Canada they are different. My ES handles well and while bumpy it's a blast to drive. Went ZOOM-ZOOMing today since it was warm.

    Dinu
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Don't forget that the original 1.8T in the Jetta had only 150 hp and people were paying a lot for those. One could say that output is weak and it should have been making 180 hp to begin with...but that would have been stepping on the VR6's toes.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    well the Jetta has a nicer interior, but I still feel it's overpriced. Especially when compaired to VW's own Golf (until VW yanked the 1.8t out of the Golf). I tend to prefer handling over luxury stuff, so the Jetta never really lit my fire. I'm interested in seeing what the next generation Golf brings to the table in handling as it will finally have an independent rear suspension setup.
  • alternatoralternator Member Posts: 629
    then definitely go to:

       

    http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/03/29/3ca4019fad1fc
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "Mazda has one redeeming quality - the Miata."

    Lol! A VW owner talking quality.
  • alternatoralternator Member Posts: 629
    Philips Martens, Managing Director of Product Strategy Design and Product Development for Mazda, may be heard at


    http://www.womanmotorist.com/index-audio.shtml

  • browntrout1browntrout1 Member Posts: 72
    While the MS3 has similar power output to the SVT focus/Nissan SE-R/1.8T v-dub/Impreza RS, it does have alot of extras also when compared to these cars. Should have the best suspension set up...maybe focus will be close or better, has an LSD (nissan has one as well), good stereo (optional on some of the others), good looks (even with the big spoiler, that can be replaced), great wheel/tire package. An similar aftermarket suspension set-up will be well over 1000 bucks. Mags?LSD?Big brakes?Stereo?

    It all adds up. Hopfully to not much more than 21K. I agree that a stripper version (similar to the Nissan SE-R, not V-SPEC) for a couple thousand less would be a great idea. Mazda is also at the end of the 3rd gen product cycle with the Protege. It's going into it's 5th year. Rather than waste alot of R&D for a new variant that will only be around for a year or 2, it would probably be more benificial for them to spend that money developing the new generation 2.3L I4 engine and chassis instead.
  • alternatoralternator Member Posts: 629
    Scroll down almost exactly half-page to locate interview.
  • fowler3fowler3 Member Posts: 1,919
    The Pro IS the end all be all car out there for a fun-to-drive smaller sedan and that's why I bought one. ;) Other cars mentioned on this board the past week have plenty of negatives I couldn't live with, not even for a day.

    How I learned to drive stick...you know...I don't really remember. I was in Germany, and bought a little British two-door sedan from an American school teacher returning to the states. My buddies helped me learn to drive it but I can't remember the details. They were sports car buffs and all up on MG-TDs and TFs of the day.

    I wanted a VW Beetle, but even in Germany the wait was 6 months to a year in 1954. They cost, get this, the export model -- $1,750! Thousands of American servicemen were on the waiting list.

    We were forbidden buying the domestic VW because they didn't have American car safety features: they had plain glass windows -- not safety glass; they had mechanical brakes; and the fuel tank was under the dash without a steel "firewall" to protect the occupants in a crash. The export model was an entirely different car.

    But I did drive stick and when I came home I went back to AT's, finally bought a Beetle in 1960, and then during the Oil Embargo of 1973-74, when I bought an Audi Fox...and drove stickshift until 1992. Sometimes I had two cars -- one AT and one 5-speed.

    fowler3
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    i took a two hour trip from Philly to Baltimore to visit the National Aquarium.......on the I-95..
    .....and this was THE QUITEST ride that I ever had in my Pro ES.........as quite as my bro's 6 yr old plush Infiniti Q45.......

    The BFGoodrich Touring T/A Vr4 tires are simply the quitest tires out there for the PRO.....no wonder they are named "Touring" tires....... absolutely the best for touring.......

    my wife was initially cribbing when I changed tires.....unnecessary expense...et al...... and now she was the one who kept on praising my decision throught the trip...... these tires made my day....

    Absolutely the most minimal of Noise, Vibration and Harshness with the definite crisp absorbption of road bumps as expected of a PRO ES.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    But how are they in the snow?
  • protegenicprotegenic Member Posts: 199
    You'll get no argument from me in that the Protege is one of the best, if not the best, small sedans available. It just seems that many want to compare it to much more expensive cars, and of course there will be some areas where those cars outshine our wonderful little car. Seriously, when was the last time that our true competition (Corolla, Sentra, Civic, Elantra, Focus, etc.) made us feel inadequate?
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    "Seriously, when was the last time that our true competition (Corolla, Sentra, Civic, Elantra, Focus, etc.) made us feel inadequate?" Good question.

    Corolla: "Toyota Corolla Sport Edition" <Oxymoron

    Sentra: More hp, but it has been recalled lately. Handling is probably similar, I don't know. Ugly rear end, spoiler or no spoiler.

    Civic: I can't justify paying for a car as reliable as the PRO, ridiculous interest fees (in Canada) and a wrong general attitude from their dealers.

    Elantra: Has anyone sat in those cardboard seats lately? CHEAP plastic dash, questionnable styling and lack of fun to drive factor to me.

    Focus: The Ford Recallmobile you mean? I just can't buy a Ford (or Chrysler or GM or Daewoo or Kia for that matter).

    Neon: What a BIG joke! Sure yiu have the cab-forward design, but you don't have the mechanics that won;t leave you stranded. Opti-space is pretty good too.

    Dinu
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    Last nite as you might be aware Dinu went paintballing. Besides the bruises, and a little blood, and two shots in the head, pretty uneventful.

    Protege-related things though:

    The Protege was liked by everyone, even one of my friends that has a farm and always drives pick-up trucks. The interior room is great: had 2 6'1" guys in there sit w/out banging their heads on the rear glass. Could be larger, but for a small car, impressive.

    The 2.0 auto pulled harder with all that weight in the car. First time I had 4 people in the PRO and you could feel the engine wasn't off-th-line as usually. On the way back home it was just me and my cousin, so ZOOM-ZOOM we did :)

    Dinu
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    Looks good outside. Echo-styled inside (enough said). Ion (pronounced "eeeon" with the "on" part pronounced [on] phonetically) means "John" in Romanian.

    Verdict: next!

    Dinu
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    u said the magic words:
    "there could be no protege owner who deliberately drives the longer route home ;)"...zoom zoom joy

    BFGoodrich Touring T/A VR4 tires: I did not get a change to test them in the snow but they have been rated as M+S
    per their own rating system, BFG has rated touring tires as:
    Wet : 7
    Quiet ride: 10
    Handling: 5
    winter traction: 8
    but handling is obviuosly better for the V rated as compared to their S,T & H rated Touring tires.

    BTW, I made another 2 hour trip to Hershey Chocolate world today along the scenic route 322.
    Once again, AMAZING is the only word that comes to mind. Usually I need to keep the stereo at 3 black bands to down the noise, which in sort makes sure that me, my wife and kid CANNOT have a healthy dicussion while touring. NOT THIS TIME. No stereo. We had a great time talking with each other and discussing so many things..... wow...thanks BFG .....for the quiet & quality time that I got "EXCLUSIVE" to be with my family.... with no disturbance.....
  • vocusvocus Member Posts: 7,777
    You went to the Aquarium in Baltimore, eh? You were literally 10 BLOCKS from my house and you could not stop by and say hello? How rude! :) Just kidding.
  • zoomzoom79zoomzoom79 Member Posts: 272
    I can vouch for Vocus on one thing because my Protege did lose $4300 in only 8 months and 11,000 miles. And that's going off of what I paid for it not what MSRP is and I thought I got a pretty good deal at $15.2. We just bought our 96 Civic EX w/ 107k and paint issues for $4500. A similar Protege would be appraised for $2000 on a good day. The SI I just bought invoiced for $15,900 new and I just bought it for $11,000. That's only $4900 in 2 years, 34,000 miles, and after there was enough paintwork that we would not be able to retail the car. My Protege is for sale at $12,998 ... a similar Civic EX at least $15,598. As far as VW goes, their resale is not something to write home to your mom about either though.

    As far as cars in the Pro's price range that made me feel inadequate ... no other car made ME feel inadequate but they did give me serious concern over my decision making ability. While I loved the Protege and hope it goes to a good home I am totally and completely in love with my SI. I could drive the Protege and recognize it as a nice car but I would also be the first to point out some of it's flaws. Not so with the SI. I dare you to talk about my car :) I will keep this car until it starts giving me more problems than it's worth fixing.

    I am in Florida visiting family and we went to our favorite place and got the windows tinted on the SI. It looks great. And since it was only $135 vs. $350 in GA I saved a few dollars too. The SI does rev kinda high but it's smooth as glass and I still got 30MPG with the AC on and running 80-90MPH.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    Did I say that?

    "":#10761 of 10763 dinu by chikoo Mar 30, 2002 (04:34 pm)
    u said the magic words:"there could be no protege owner who deliberately drives the longer route home ;)"..."" That doesn't make sense. That means no protege owner likes driving. I think you meant the other wasy around. Anyways, it's all good. We're all enjoying our cars.

    Here's what I really said about 60 posts back:

    "Many folks around here can confirm, they end up taking the long way home when they're in their PROs. I guess that says something about it"

    Dinu
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    "my Protege did lose $4300 in only 8 months and 11,000 miles"" Really? New cars lose value when they're driven off the lot.

    Now we all know the PRO loses more value than a Civic, but:

    1. You pay LESS for it when new (MSRP+INTEREST)
    As you'll often see me complain, interest rates on Hondas in Canada are ridiculous.

    2. You knew that when you bought it, so....?

    Bottom Line: If you bought your PRO to trade it in after 2-3 years, you made a HUGE mistake. Actually with any new car, you gotta own it for at least 5 yrs so when you sell it you don't loose money. The longer you keep it, the better.

    Of course some people want to have a new car every 3 years. That's why you can lease it, not buy it and deduct it with your taxes. Speaking of which, I gotta get mine done. Need that extra $ for the NX.

    Dinu
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    Can you ZOOM-ZOOM in a Nissan? Problem is, ZOOM-ZOOMing is now part of my everyday vocab. I also use words like "The Protege; The PRO; THe ZOOM-ZOOM; The DinuMobile". So now that I will also buy an NX, do I have your "permission/blessing" to use the words ZOOM-ZOOM when driving the NX?

    Dinu
    PS: Please don't sue me for copyright infringement.
  • fowler3fowler3 Member Posts: 1,919
    Of course they lose value! They have to lose value! But not as fast as computers lose it. Look at all the cars available on dealer lots; if there were fewer cars available prices would be higher across the board for all makes and models. And then we couldn't get a discount and low financing.

    Remember supply and demand -- that old law still works its tricks on us. I've never agreed with it entirely, but everyone else does.

    A car that suits you perfectly, is the one you bought, I hope, regardless of what the competition had to offer. The longer you keep it the better off you will be.

    What really surprises me on here is the number of people buying used cars with over 100,000 miles on them. I had always been told to NEVER by a used car with more than 40,000 miles on it, and closer to 30K miles if possible. The only thing that looks used on it should be the ODO reading.

    Times change. Cars get better, last longer. Fourty years ago I know people who bought used cars with high mileage, but they paid only $700 for them and drove them until they broke down, then looked for another *clunker*. Little risk, little $$ lost, small insurance payments, practically no taxes. But there are NO $700 cars anymore.

    When I sold my '98 Odyssey I was looking for an older Honda Civic and the average prices were $14,500! I just would NOT pay that for somebody's cast-off. So, I bought the Protegé LX at not much more and had a warrenty and lower payments. Even the Pro DX would have been a better deal, IMHO.

    fowler3
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    ... charging $25K for a souped up Protege that will probably only be worth $15K or so within a year and 20K miles..." by Vocus

    Not nice to slam a car you have not seen or driven. Really, $10,000 in deprecation in one year? Again, Paul, I would like to be validated as a used car pricing expert. How & where did you get your validation?

    -love train
  • th83th83 Member Posts: 164
    What's the deal with the new Sport Automatic transmission that is optional on the ES? Has anyone here had any experience with it? Does it offer decent manual control? Just curious since my next car HAS to be an automatic. I know, I know, I sound like THE anti-enthusiast but where I live it is almost impossible to really enjoy the benefits of a manual. All the traffic around here really limits any kind of fun you can have. Oh well, that's what late-night drives and road trips to the country are for:).
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    Happy Easter to All! I'm off to Nashville, TN. for a little job training, I'll check-in here if I can. Have a great week!

    Love And God Bless,
    Trudy, L J & Larry
  • fxashunfxashun Member Posts: 747
    But here's my take on the "over 100K" rule. I don't buy anything with less than 100K unless it's a great deal. The "green car" netted me $2750 in trade with 143K. That's phenomenal considering I bought it a year and 20K ago for $3000. My "new" "silver" car 1996 Civic EX 4 door has 107K and I paid $4500 for it because it was a total repaint. Nothing wrong mechanically just repainted. Drives like a new car. No rattles and has the bonus of having factory CD and rear spoiler. Gonna look great when I put my Borbet Type C's on it.

    The Protege was a very nice car if you HAVE to have a new car. I don't. I have a basic knowledge of what to look for in a car and have never regretted any of my purchases. In the last 5 days since I bought it I've changed the oil to syntec, changed the timing belt, and aligned it. Drives like a dream.

    The Pro's engine kept it in the driveway when I wanted to go somewhere even though it handled great. There is just too much vibration and it generally sounds strained at high rpm. There's only two of us and we live in the 'burbs, so I don't worry about how my Civic may react to being loaded with 4 people in traffic. The Pro handles great but wouldn't most cars handle great if you stiffen the suspension and put 16" 50series tires on them. We'll see when I put 15" 50series tires on the "silver" car how it compares to the Pro cause Zoom Zoom's Si does a pretty fair mimic on 15" 55 series tires.
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    dinu...
    I got it wrong...thanks for the correction

    Vocus....sorry but I did not realize that...i always kind of thought u were in D.C....i guess that is where u work ;)
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "The Pro handles great but wouldn't most cars handle great if you stiffen the suspension and put 16" 50 series tires on them."

    Uh, no. It's not that simple. Pontiac Bonnevilles have a stiffer suspension and 16 inch tires. Are they handling beasts? Here's a quote from the new Motor Trend on the P5

    "(it has) an extremely well-engineered suspension package that runs with the best of them yet doesn't beat it's occupants to a frothy foam"

    Here's another quote regarding the 135 lbs-ft of torque:

    "Because of this around-town-rpm earnestness, we'd hardly say the Protege 5 is slow--it's merely horsepower challanged. Still, it doesn't embarrass itself at the test track, returning a decent 8.82-sec sprint to 60 and clips the slalom cones at a pace (66.4 mph) that would challenge most sports cars"

    See? I TOLD YOU that a real auto mag could get a quicker 0-60 time. Hmmm, if the wagon is 8.82 seconds, the sedan must be a little quicker right?
  • protegenicprotegenic Member Posts: 199
    I can't hear what you are saying over all those revs it takes to really get your car moving! (jk). Again, I am really glad you enjoy your car so much. Sounds like you have found your auto soul mate. And I don't want to get back into that whole used Civic vs. Protege thing again (although the Si is a different animal altogether imo).

    And about depreciation, everyone is going to get skinned trading in vehicles with dealers, regardless of the brand. I had an A4 for nine months and had to sell it to get into our house. Bought it for 25,500. Best offer from a dealer was $20K. Sold it in one day for 23K, leading me to believe I could have gotten more.
  • zoomzoom79zoomzoom79 Member Posts: 272
    Is that the best you can do? First off, the Boneville is in a completely different size, weight, power, and class category. The Protege and the Civic are in the same categories all the way around. Our 96 (and 00) Civic's have front and rear double wishbone suspensions. Even the 01+ Civic's with their "downgraded" suspensions can equal or better Protege's with the same setup. My SI, even with 15" tires handles just as well at high speeds as the Protege did. The difference is that the Civic's engine doesn't buzz you the death at high speeds and the power is still building should you feel the need to go from 80MPH to 100MPH. Whereas the Protege's engine feels like it's done once you get to 85MPH.

    As for the 8.82 seconds for the P5 ... 8.8. 9.0 What's the difference? The 96 "silver" car is in the low 8's with 3 less HP and 20lb-ft torque less. And we won't even go into the difference between the engines when you are on the highway. And I really won't compare the Protege performance with that of my SI cause that wouldn't be fair.

    I do know where someone can find a nice used Protege for $12,998 if you want one :) I regret that I wasn't able to keep it longer. It was a good car and I liked driving it. It was also pretty to look at.

    Protegenic: Are you sure that the reason that you aren't able to hear me is all of the creaks and rattles the Protege makes when it's cold? :)

    Yes, I will admit the Civic is a revver. But at least it's smooth and it's even pretty quiet considering it revs at 4400 at 80.

    I think if you want to trade cars every few years then you should buy used cars. I've learned my lesson.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    I wasn't trying to compare the Civic and the Protege. I was just trying to say that the idea that a stiffer suspension and bigger wheels is all you need to handle well is a very over simplified and incorrect way of looking at things. It's as if you guys think the wheels and stiffer struts on the Protege is what makes it a good handler. Mazda engineers would puke after they read that. Gee, I'll take a Model T, throw some Tokicos and Eibachs and some 17's on it and it should do 66 mph in the slalom right? Ever heard of suspension geometry and engineering? I'll tell you one thing, suspension geometry and engineering ISN'T just "stiffer suspension and big wheels".

    About the 0-60 time. I only brought that up because you said the new Civic EX is faster and quoted some third world auto publication as the source of the Protege's 0-60 time. Also, the Sedan should be quicker than the P5 which makes the alleged performance gap between the EX Civic and Protege even narrower and irrelevant considering the class of cars.
  • fxashunfxashun Member Posts: 747
    who take the extreme. What I meant if you take a car that is in the same class and size as the Protege and stiffened the suspension and added 16" 50 series tires you could have a car like the Protege. That's what Mazda did with the MP3. Of course the MP3 handles great. It has even larger wheels and tires than the ES with even more mods to the suspension.

    A Bonneville. How absurd. I thought it was a given that we were talking small economy cars. I mean for that matter the new 745i probably does worse in the slolam than the Pro on 18's. There's nothing that can be done about that. It's an enterely different class of car.

    I really don't bother with 0-60 because I don't like to beat up on my cars like that. And that's only 8 seconds... What happens after that?

    How about when you're in the Protege on the highway doing 80 and someone is riding your tail?Or if you want to follow the "train" of cars doing a hundred on the interstate. It's much more important to me what happens between 3500 rpm and redline. Above the 3500 threshold the Pro started sounding and feeling strained. That's why the Pro stayed in the driveway and why we'd take the "green car" on trips. The engine liked 80mph+ speeds much more than the Pro.

    As far as engineers and puking??? What about a 2.0 liter engine only putting out 130hp??? Or a Turbo 2.0 with only 170hp??? The VW or even Toyota engineers would kick the Mazda engineers out of the union for the Turbo. The 1990 Celica all trac had 200 hp out of 2.0 liters. 4 wheel drive, awesome seats, killer stereo, VERY nice car.

    Variable valve timing is more reliable, more efficient, cleaner running, and less expensive over the long haul than a Turbo. The technology is proven. But then again the 2.0 still has iron block aluminum head construction. Talk about technology that should go the way of the Model T.

    By the way the Model T didn't have independent suspension. BUT you might be able to take a 1987 Protege and run much quicker times if you did the same to it. It DID have the RX7 rear suspension in it. Twin Trapeziodal something....
  • browntrout1browntrout1 Member Posts: 72
    Civic Si is a great car. The only problem with it, it's useless under 5000 RPM. To most, that's not a problem...me included. I don't minding winding out the engine but to alot of people it's too much work. Also, I've heard that the Civic Si at 60MPH turns around 4000-4500 RPM. Again, to me that would be a little buzzy.

    Now as far as performance numbers, anything with about .5 sec difference for economy cars is really not a big differance at all. For example I've seen numbers from 10.1 sec all the way down to 8.5 sec for 0-60 times for a 1.8L 5spd Protege. There are just to many factors involved. I would say that a comparison test is probably the best from one magazine since all the cars are probably tested in the same day under the same conditions. But as we have stated before, 0-60 numbers are not everything. Track times are even better. There is an article in Grass Roots Motorsports on some of the new high performance compact cars. MP3 was the slowest of the bunch 0-60 and had the least horspower on the dyno but on an autocross course, it beat out alot of the cars including the new Civic Si.

    I don't think if you put stiffer springs on a Corolla and slapped on some 16" tires it would handle better. Mazda's have always been better handling cars than most cars in their class. It's not something that's new.
  • browntrout1browntrout1 Member Posts: 72
    ...is only cleaner running at low RPM's. I'm talking about the VTEC with the 2 sets of cam lobes. At higher RPM's when the VTEC switch-over takes place, clean burning goes out the window. For most, they don't drive at high RPM's too much so no big deal. In the future, it is going to be hard to maintain this sort of VTEC feature becuase the goverment is going to start testing emmisions at wide open throttle. I think now they just test at idle and at cruising speeds. There was an article in Sport Compact Car about this. A very good read.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    "The difference is that the Civic's engine doesn't buzz you the death at high speeds and the power is still building should you feel the need to go from 80MPH to 100MPH. Whereas the Protege's engine feels like it's done once you get to 85MPH." What a load of $#@*! I drive my PRO like I did my Civic (80-100mph on the highway). Can I say something? The Civic would take forever to get up to 160km/h. The PRO? Any idiot that wants to ride my tail when I'm going 130km/h finds himself smaller and smaller in my rear view mirror. The PRO has A LOT of mid-range power. I run it at 4500RPMs for 160km/h with....(get this) an auto tranny and that 2.0 POS engine. I wonder what the 5spd can do...

    I'm not here to slam the Civic (I owned one and appreciate those cars a lot). I just wanna let you die-hard Civic fans know that the PRO is:

    1. better in the city (torque...yeah!)
    2. still pulls very well up to 100mph
    3 after that it's ALL CIVIC territory as the PRO's engine buzzes too much

    The verdict? To everyone his own. But don't slam the PRO just b/c you're Civic-obsessed.

    So ZZ79, what engine did you have on the PRO? 5MT or 4EAT? What year was it?

    Dinu
  • protegenicprotegenic Member Posts: 199
    Luckily I haven't been aflicted with the cold Pro phenomenon with my '99 ES...so far.
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