Mazda Protegé

mdaffron · November 2002

Hmmm, when mine gets dirty enough that it needs "spot cleaning," I go ahead and wash it.

IMHO, if you only "touch up" certain "spots" on the car between washes, there'll be enough dirt in other places to show that you spot cleaned the car. The only option would be to "spot clean" the whole car ... er, wash it.

So I just wash every week or two. The only thing I will do between washes is use the squeegie at the gas station if my windows are yucky.

Wax? Meguiar's Gold Class. You betcha.

And I'm in touch with the "rained all weekend" thing. It did here too. We got another inch and a half in the rain gauge out on the deck. That makes almost five inches so far in November! Our yard is so wet now, your feet go "squish squish" when you walk in it, and you leave inch-deep footprints in the grass! And my next-door neighbor had a 30-year-old oak tree succumb to the wet ground and it toppled, roots and all, landing in my yard!!! Good thing it didn't hit the house, the shed OR the Proteges ...

Meade

the_big_h · November 2002

go buy some Meguiar's Quick Detailer. Best invention ever for spot cleaning.

bluong1 · November 2002

The brake is energy sink, converting the momentum energy into heat. A better brake will convert quicker. When one lock the wheel, the heat is generated from the friction between the tires and the road surface which is less efficient than the friction between the brake pads applied on the rotors/drums. Let's assume the sink rate is constant (i.e., ignore the fact that the brake get hotter.) As the momentum energy is proportional to the square of the speed, at the beginning the braking period, the deceleration is relatively lesser than at the end of the braking period for the same amount of energy converted. Therefore the mass of the car only shift significantly to the front of the car at the end of the period of braking where the deceleration is large. The weight shifting is dominant for braking at lower speed and lighter car. For braking at higher speed and heavier car, this effect is no longer dominant, and the efficiency of the energy sinking of the rear brake becomes as much important as the front one. In addition it will not lock the wheels. Take into extreme, this is the case of the train: the deceleration is very low, the train take a lot of time to stop, and it needs the brake installed at any single car to do that, not only at the front.

Bruno

mdaffron · November 2002

;-)

Wait a minute -- Paul, didn't you admit you use 409 or Spray 'n Wash or something on your car already? Why don't you just use that for spot cleaning?

And to get a tough stain out ...

Meade

mdaffron · November 2002

You press the pedal with your foot. The pressure from your foot makes the pedal go down, pressing the thingy into the master cylinder, increasing the pressure in all those hoses that go to your wheels. That pressure is transferred to those thingies that move the pistons in the calipers and make flat- (disc) or arc- (drum) shaped pieces of metal contact those large, cool-looking shiny things (discs) or those rusty, ugly looking Tupperware-shaped things (drums) which are attached to your cool alloys, causing the car to slow down. Press harder, and the car stops or the wheels lock up and you hydroplane, causing your insurance company to buy you another shiny new Protege. (And then they dump you, but only after they buy you another shiny new Protege.)

Meade

bluong1 · November 2002

What I wanted to say is: when braking with a heavy car at high speed, it's also important to have a good rear-brake, and not only the front one. Thus, disk/disk configuration is superior for high speed braking/or heavy car, because disk design is a more efficient energy sink device than drum.

mdaffron · November 2002

... that the surface area of a drum shoe is usually much greater than that of a disc pad?

Meade
The guy who said he wouldn't get involved in this conversation again

bluong1 · November 2002

stop editing your posts all the time! I can't keep up with you.

mdaffron · November 2002

;-)

Meade

bluong1 · November 2002

surface area is not the only thing that's important because the rotation momentum is proportial to the distance (or its square?) to the axis. Disk brake have a greater mean-diameter than drum. Let's consider two brakes with the same surface area, but the one located far from the wheel axis is much more efficient than the one located closer. Also heat is better dissipated (through air) with the disk than with drum.

maltb · November 2002

surface area is greater, but pressure is lower. Since pressure is a unit of area, you can have the same friction 2 ways: lots of surface area/low pressure and little surface area/high pressure.

mdaffron · November 2002

But let's just say, for example, that a car with rear discs has discs that are 10 inches in diameter, and the same car with rear drums has drums that are 8 inches in diameter.

By design, the disc pad presses sideways into the disc -- and contacts the disc all over the disc's surface -- anywhere from about the 7-inch-diameter point on the disc on out to the outside, 10-inch edge.

With the drum brake, on the other hand, the shoe contacts the drum at the 8-inch point in entirety.

I agree with what you're saying about heat-sinking capabilities -- but when it comes to your explanation about force dynamics, I think you've overlooked the fact that only a very small portion of the disc brake pad is actually operating along the disc's maximum diameter. I think if you consider that ALL of the drum's braking power is being applied at the full diameter of the drum, you'll see the two are probably very close in stopping efficiency using your scientific explanation.

Meade the Mathematician

maltb · November 2002

The same amount of force is required to reach the same friction regardles of the contact area.

mdaffron · November 2002

What does that have to do with the price of eggs in Russia?

My Protege stops when I want it to. And it has stopped every time I've wanted it to in 46,500 miles, and I haven't had to replace or repair anything.

Call me an appliance user -- I really don't care very much how my brakes work or what Neoclassical Theorems and Postulates went into their design.

The same way I don't really care about my bore and stroke, valve diameter or intake design -- that's what I paid Mazda to do so I can zoom in happy oblivion!

Meade

bluong1 · November 2002

"I think you've overlooked the fact that only a very small portion of the disc brake pad is actually operating along the disc's maximum diameter."

That's not true. ALL diameters are operating. But the heat will dissipate at different rate at each specific diameter. If you take a RMS (root-mean-square) of the disk with OD=10 inches and ID=7 inches, you will find that it's equivalent to 8.544". You need to put the drum at this RMS-diameter with the same surface-area in order to get the same efficiency.

bluong1 · November 2002

"Meade the Mathematician"

Same here, get my PhD in 1997

dsm6 · November 2002

A good friend once told me - Don't let the truth get in the way of telling a good story.

Or was it the facts? You take your pick. ;-)

meinrad · November 2002

Somebody I know swears by that theory!

vocus · November 2002

I said I use Oxy-Clean on the car sometimes when tough bird poop stains won't come out. The other things you mentioned are not safe for the car's finish.

I used Meguiar's Gold Class leather cleaner for my interior, and really liked the results. I was going to stick with Meguiar's, if I ever get around to waxing the car.

And as far as washing, you have it easy, especially with the new driveway. I have to take the car to the wash every time it gets dirty enough to wash, because I live in the city. Also, your car is dark green and will show dirt alot easier than my white one will.

chicagopro · November 2002

Hey, Meade...that's pretty funny.

Pete recommended that I use Gold Class on my car, too, which is what we did. Still looks pretty good a couple of weeks later.

But seriously, how long can I expect it to last? Through the winter?

And what are the proper weather conditions for re-applying in the winter, if I need to?

Certain air temp? Humidity level?

Thanks!

--Dale

chicagopro · November 2002

Sorry you have to give up the 323...getting old sucks, doesn't it?

Hope this niece person can give it a good home!

--Dale

vocus · November 2002

You should wax the car again when the water starts beading on the surface. Usually every 6-12 months.

Just make sure it's really clean and dry before applying the wax.

vocus · November 2002

I wish I had the cash right now to get the 323, it would be a perfect commuter/runabout, and a good car for my dad to drive. Oh well.

chikoo · November 2002

only rear brakes, intentionally.

An excellent front brake in that vehicle was considered a poor design.

An excellent rear brake was a must.

Braking force distribution, ideally for that vehicle was: 20/80 F/R

And it was not a train!!

Can anybody figure out what vehicle is that?

mdaffron · November 2002

It's 12:20 on a Tuesday afternoon! Why you tryin' to talk to me over HERE???

KEEP UP!!!

Meade

mdaffron · November 2002

Gotta be ice skates, roller skates or roller blades.

Meade

mdaffron · November 2002

You should wax again WHEN???

Dale, he meant (I hope) to say "when water NO LONGER beads on the surface." But even that's not always a good indicator. I wax my car two to three times a year.

Meade

mazdafun · November 2002

Heat degrades the performance of brake pads (and warp rotors etc.). Disc brakes throw off heat faster due to more air circulation, more exposed surface area. Thus, they don't "fade" as much as drum brakes (due to off-gassing off the pad, up to actual melting of the pad with the organic materials).

On the first stomp, both designs can be made to work well (let's assume they've been designed to stop the vehicle in the same distance from the same speed). On subsequent stops (in a short period of time, like on a track or long downhills), or a long, continual application, the drums will be hotter, and take more distance to stop or slow (the disc brake will also take longer than it did on the first stop, but it'll increase at a slower rate than the drum). If it gets hot enough, you might even get your brake fluid to overheat and actually create gas bubbles. Then you're pretty much SOL.

But for everyday driving, front disc/rear drum set-ups are OK. If you drive a lot on long downhills or race, you're better off with disc/disc set-ups and you might even get higher-temp rated rotors and pads.

mazdafun · November 2002

I spot-clean bird droppings and other gunk I think will damage the paint severely. I just put windshield-washer fluid into a spray bottle and use that for most stuff.

bluong1 · November 2002

I concur with Meade, waxing the car two or three times a year, whatever wax you are using. It seems a lot but look at that way: it still less frequent than waxing the legs...

boggse · November 2002

I wonder if anyone makes a disc-to-drum conversion kit? ;-)

vocus · November 2002

Sorry, got confused. When water no longer beads on the surface is when you wax again.

I have never waxed a car yet, can you tell?

mdaffron · November 2002

Yes, discs may in fact be better overall -- note I've never said drums are better. But as Chow-Chi said, discs vs. drums in the rear really only makes a difference if you're a racer. I drive my Protege fast once in a while, and I know its limitations. I drive accordingly.

That said, let's talk about a difference that's much more applicable with 99 percent of the driving public, including us ...

I've had to have disc rotors resurfaced several times on several cars -- yes, even on the rear on cars I've had that have had rear discs (Saabs and Proteges) in my 21 years of driving. Yet to date, I've never had to do a darned thing to any drum brakes I've owned. My Mazda truck went through three sets of front disc pads and had its rotors resurfaced twice -- and was ready for a fourth set -- but was still on its untouched rear drums and second set of shoes -- at 117,000 miles.

In the rear of a car, drums and shoes last much longer and cost much less to maintain than another set of discs and rotors. And money in my pocket is much more important to me than a foot or two of stopping distance. If you know your car, you're going to make it stop in a safe manner and give it the room it needs.

And don't start spouting off about "those two or three feet may be the difference ..." C'mon folks, most panic stops don't occur when you've got 120 feet (nearly half a football field) to play with.

One other jab -- it's really nice to have to stoop down and really sweat over only TWO wheels when I'm washing my car. My 2000 ES's rear drums keep my rear alloys nice and clean!

Meade

P.S. Paul: Yes.

protege_fan · November 2002

Read the latest issue of Sport Compact Car. Comparo in there with the MSP and a few others.

dinu01 · November 2002

comment on the all-mighty brake war we have going on every few weeks here.

Discs w/crossdrilled rotors on all 4 are good. I have a disc/drum setup on my PRO and know that the 4 discs one I test drove before I got mine stopped better.

Dinu

...guess I just made a comment...

bluong1 · November 2002

In my 17 years driving, I only have one panic stop with a disk/drum car and never resurface any disk.

For me the disk/disk is probably not much significantly better for a panic stop. But it helps me not involve into a panic stop situation. Many times, it happens that I see an obstacle and want to slow down, keeping my safe distance with the obstacle. I feel much more confident with a disk/disk brake when slowing down, especially at the beginning of the braking period, giving the feeling of not spending all the resources. I'm not racer, and it makes a difference for me.

mazdafun · November 2002

http://www.familycar.com/brakes.htm

Seems putting a parking brake mechanism is a lot easier to do with drums than discs. Thus the cost differential, and why many manufacturers still put drum brakes on the rear wheels.

beanboy · November 2002

My brother checked out the 6 last night, rising quickly to the top on his list of cars to purchase within the year. Hopefully we'll head to the dealer in a couple of weeks when the manual models arrive.

Mazda finally seems to be making the right move into the niche they will do well in which started with the Miata way back when. Reasonablly priced vehicles that look good, handle well and have decent power. Really have no competition at the moment, which is sad in a way.

-B

maltb · November 2002

is that your last bit of ammo?

mdaffron · November 2002

... but I really can't believe the author of that article says,

"Disk brakes wear longer, are less affected by water, are self adjusting, self cleaning, less prone to grabbing or pulling and stop better than any other system around."

My experience has shown that in the rear, drum brakes have always outlasted discs. Also, drum brakes are enclosed whereas discs are wide open, and one good douse of cold water from a hose on your wheels when you don't wait long enough after driving your car to wash it and you've got warped disc rotors. Ever seen your hot discs release a nice cloud of steam when you hit a puddle in a parking lot? (If you haven't, you haven't been driving long enough or you don't pay very good attention to your car.) Disc brakes are FAR more susceptible to water because they're wide open to it! Also -- drum brakes are self-adjusting too. And while disc brakes may be "self-cleaning," they do so by cleaning themselves all over your wheels and tires!

Again, I agree that discs are better ... but I don't swear at the rear drums on my 2000 ES every time I step on the brakes. My brakes work very well.

Meade

mdaffron · November 2002

maltb · November 2002

try driving a car with 4 wheel drum brakes...you will quickly change your mind.

I had a '71 Land Cruiser with drums all around. After driving through puddles about the only thing that would stop it was a downshift. Down long hills the brakes would fade and again you were faced again with using the engine to slow the pig.

Yes, drums work fine in the Pro, but discs are clearly superior.

mdaffron · November 2002

But thanks for playing.

maltb · November 2002

I say they work fine...if you drive 70 and mild mannered.

If you drive like me, they are not ok. Try that 100-0 panic stop and you'll realize. I guarantee it.

mdaffron · November 2002

So drums are fine if you obey the law (or at least come close)!

OK!

Funny, I don't feel I'll ever need to panic stop from 100 in an economy car ...

Meade

P.S. "70 and mild-mannered?" The top speed limit in my state is 65, so I guess we're all mild-mannered here in Virginia.

chikoo · November 2002

Gentlemen, please proceed to your corners and wait for the bell to ring for the next round.

c'mon.......

maltb · November 2002

So drums are fine if you obey the law (or at least come close)!

Call me a law-breaker I guess...

mazdafun · November 2002

I think they mean the braking effectiveness is less affected by water being splashed on them. Water gets spun off discs as they spin. Water gets trapped against the braking surface in a drum. Apparently Malt's experienced this first-hand. I've had the luck to not have driven such a beast in wet conditions.

But for the standard Protege/P5, a front disc/rear drum arrangement is fine. Still, I wouldn't turn down rear discs either (they're just easier to change pads for me...I hated changing the shoes on the rear drums on my 323...probably take mine to the dealer to change the rear drums ).

Now for anything that just invites spirited driving (and braking), I think rear discs are better.

chikoo · November 2002

that I was referring to.

any one wants to take a shot at it?

vocus · November 2002

I am with you. Show me one person who drives on the Capital Beltway and obeys the 55mph speed limit. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

I have had both front disc/rear drum, and 4disc. I like the 4disc better for the pedal feel like I said before.

And my mother's 94 Bonneville needed work on its rear drum brakes. Granted, it was cheaper than the disc brake work. But it was still needed, at around 100K miles.

Mazda Protegé

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