Mazda Protegé

protege_fan · April 2003

I dunno...why haven't all manufacturers adopted side airbags? Likely costs, etc. I dunno. Why doesn't everybody have internet in their home? Why isn't everybody using broadband? Etc, etc.

mdaffron · April 2003

Think I'll have a beer.

dsm6 · April 2003

"Then if all that improvement can be had for $30, how come the auto manufacturers haven't adopted this "advancement" into their technology?"

You answered your own question within the question - because all that improvement can be had for $30, which is approximately $30 more than they'd be willing to spend on a per car basis due to the fact that it wouldn't help them sell even one extra car. Have you ever heard of someone buying a car because it comes with a high end air filter as stock equipment? Besides, their parts agreements are with companies that want to keep selling you more filters, not just sell one lifetime filter and that's it. K&N doesn't have the same piece of the market, so they've chosen a different path.

Speaking of which, I'm trying to understand the point with the comparison to two and a half years' worth of standard air filters. You do know that these things will last the life of the car, right? The life of the car is presumably longer than 2.5 years - probably by a factor of 5 or more. Given that fact, I'd wonder why not to put one in.

The improved breathing just makes the case better. It's kind of like how you argue that a clean air filter is better than a dirty one because it allows better air flow. Well, compared to a K&N, the stock filter is "dirty" - while offering no better protection against contaminants.

BTW, I've never had trouble, nor heard of any wide-spread problem, with the oil from K&Ns getting into throttle bodies, etc. If such a problem is significantly wide spread, then that IMO would constitute a reason not to use one, but cost or the fact that they aren't used by the manufacturers IMO doesn't.

mdaffron · April 2003

... to do that?

Do you really think an oil filter costs THEM $6.50? Or a timing belt $60?

Please.

And don't you even think for one minute that being able to tout improved fuel economy wouldn't sell cars. Read back through even this discussion -- the ONE thing we'll readily give the Civic and Toyota guys is that their cars get better gas mileage.

If Mazda saw a way to raise the Protege's gas mileage even ONE mpg closer to its competitors, and could do so for a cost of maybe $10 per car (heck, even $30, I'll give you all of it), I think they would've chosen to install K&Ns in every Protege instead of spend obviously more bucks to change the rear brakes from drums to discs -- something most car buyers couldn't give a you-know-what about.

Meade

P.S. I'm not stupid; I know what a K&N filter is and how long it lasts. (I also know they require maintenance a standard air filter does not.) All I'm saying is two things: First of all, faced with a purchase that will last you at least a year, are you gonna spend $12.95 for a one-year part or $30 for a "lifetime" part? Second, sure the car will go 150,000 or 200,000 miles if taken care of. But how long are YOU going to keep the car? I don't plan on keeping my Protege much past 100K, if I go that far. Most people don't drive their cars more than five years. So the K&N's $30 probably equates to about $64.75 in standard filters, if math serves me correct. My argument is kinda like the one we all face when we buy our cars ... why spend $284 a month for five years ($17,040) when we could pay $15,100 outright to own the car (in my case)? It's more CONVENIENT to go for the smaller amount, even if you wind up paying more in the long run.

vocus · April 2003

The engine sounded a little 'throatier' than it did when I first got the car. But I couldn't handle the increased fuel consumption.

In addition, I know alot of people who have had similar issues in their VWs with the K&N filters.

The filters used to be more expensive, but like everything they came down in price because they aren't the new thing out anymore.

protege_fan · April 2003

They've been around since 1967.

dsm6 · April 2003

Please indeed.

Auto industry bean-counters speak of cost increases on the scale of $.50 and reject them based upon cost-benefit analysis (see Ford cost-cutting as a ref). As well they should in this case because any cost increase at all would be totally wasted given that there would be absolutely no benefit to the manufacturer if they were to use K&N air filters.

mdaffron · April 2003

K&N has been around since 1967.

K&N makes your engine sound "throatier." (You're not the only one who's said this, Paul; from what I've read for the past seven or eight years, most people don't buy K&N for fuel economy; they buy K&N to complement their coffee-can tailpipes, lowered suspensions and "Type-R" hood decals ... hmmm, what's that word I'm looking for?)

Put those two together and we find an accessory that came out right in the middle of the muscle-car craze.

Now, why can't I find a blacked-out rear-window louvre for my Protege ...

Meade

mdaffron · April 2003

protege_fan · April 2003

You're saying that because a company has been around since 1967, that it means their products are outdated? That's the implication I'm reading from your statement.

What's this? Mazda was started back in 1920?? Oh wow...that must mean Mazdas now are outdated. Good logic, Meade.

dsm6 · April 2003

I bought my pro es based in part upon how it handled - including breaking performance, the superiority of which over its competition due in part to the fact that it comes with four wheel discs.

I'm not alone.

The pro's niche relative to its competition is very clearly derived from its sporty image. An image helped by four wheel discs. An image for which the choice of stock air filter doesn't matter to anyone anywhere.

Having established the car in this niche, now comes the cost benefit analysis from the consumer's side - the consumer wants rear discs, so how much will it cost to get rear drums swapped if discs are standard? Too much - it would be much better to get them as standard equipment. The consumer wants K&N style performance (whether that be sound, hp, mpg, etc.). How much will that cost to switch if K&Ns aren't standard? Nothing? You mean I'll actually save money by switching?

manavi · April 2003

I put one into my 2001 Protege about a year ago. I remember it was about $30.

I can say that after I put it in I could tell a difference in the engine at higher revs, like over 3500 or so. The engine revved a lot smoother.

Now, I have not noticed any difference in gas mileage or acceleration. But, the improvement to what I consider quite a raucous and unrefined engine was worth it for me.

mdaffron · April 2003

I didn't even infer that its products were outdated. What I'm saying is that they were invented during the muscle car era, when everyone was looking for ways to "supe up" everything on cars -- whether it was for performance or just show. C'mon. I'm not out to get you.

There's another aspect about the difference between K&N and stock air filters.

I can buy a new $12.95 Purolator filter every year and pop it in my filter canister. Simple. With a K&N, I have to take it out, wash it, and "re-oil" it. (I just read this at K&N's website.)

While I admit I have no idea what you wash it IN or WITH, I'd have to say that the sludge and used oil you're washing down the drain or leaving in the groundwater offsets K&N's so-called "environmental friendliness" gained from keeping paper air filters out of landfills (which are designed to handle decaying paper much better than the soil in our back yards is designed to handle oil and detergents).

But I do know that it's a lot less hassle just to buy a paper filter and pop it in than it is to launder and "re-oil" a reusable filter. If you don't agree, let's have a timed race and see which is more convenient. I'll even add you the three minutes I'll use to pull into Advance on the way home and pick up my new filter.

No, I'm not saying the K&N is outdated. (I think Paul said that.) I'm saying it's unnecessary.

Meade

mdaffron · April 2003

"An image for which the choice of stock air filter doesn't matter to anyone anywhere."

Thank you for summing up my point exactly!

With that I'm going home, satisfied that Protege will be No. 1 tomorrow because of my newest nasty debate started and a job well done.

I await my congratulatory letter.

It's 81 and sunny out. Time to plop into my cruddy-paper-filter-equipped, 53,000-miles-on-its-OEM-brakes, rear-drum-equipped 2000 ES and zoom happily home.

Meade

protege_fan · April 2003

Just another agree to disagree thing in the Protege family

mdaffron · April 2003

Grampaw

vocus · April 2003

One other thing I didn't much care for was how messy the K&N was when I was installing it. The oil was all over the place inside the package, the box it came in, and on the filter as well.

And I didn't say the K&N was outdated, I said it was now priced lower because they're more commonplace.

maltb · April 2003

Now you did it. For disagreeing, you'll be tomorrow's all knowing king Tut, regardless of logic.

protege_fan · April 2003

That's just crazy talk!

Umm..to be on-topic (now that's a crazy idea!) the new intake I installed in my Pro is great IMO. Much better than the stock intake.

tomciviletti · April 2003

Did you disconnect the battery to reset the engine control computer after you installed the K&N? If not, the air/fuel ratio may have been incorrect, explaining the lowered fuel economy.

manavi · April 2003

I don't remember reading anywhere in the K&N air filter package I bought about needing to reset the car's computer after installing the filter. Where did you get that info?

protege_fan · April 2003

"10. Will I need to make adjustments to my vehicle after I install a K&N filter or intake kit?

On fuel injected vehicles the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) computer and emissions control system will adjust for the increase in air. The OEM computer will adjust immediately if it is reset. Removing the battery cable from the battery for 15 minutes or more should reset it. On some carbureted models you may have to richen the mixture when switching from a paper filter to a K&N air filter or intake kit.

http://www.knfilters.com/faq.htm

The computer should adjust over time, but it's apparently immediate if you disconnect the negative terminal on the battery.

chikoo · April 2003

What should be the voltage ouput when the car is in idle from the Alternator, as measured between the two battery terminals?

protege_fan · April 2003

I've been doing some searching...It sounds like it depends on what's on (ie. lights, fans, etc). From what I can tell, it should be somewhere around 14.5-14.8 V.

Other forums will likely have more info than here.

chikoo · April 2003

I would appreciate if somebody can back up what PF said.

protege_fan · April 2003

Mind if I ask what the reason you need the info for?

manavi · April 2003

I guess I won't bother unplugging the battery now since it's been about a year since I installed the filter.

I still feel comfortable recommending the K&N air filter to anyone who thinks the engine sounds too rough when revving high. But, don't expect any significant gains in MPG or acceleration.

chikoo · April 2003

because at idle, the tach is not steady, and drops and fluctuates when i put in in R(with the rear lights coming on) and drops further when I switch on my lights.

Anyway I got a battery and alternator tester from Radioshack while coming home for $5.99. It shows the Battery as fine, Alternator as weak.

So the question is:
Is the repair of a weak alternator covered under the Mazda Extended care warranty?

mdaffron · April 2003

To install this filter?

Hmmm, we'll have to add time for reprogramming all of our radio presets and clock to that installation time ...

Tell me, do we have to do this each time we wash and wax the filter too?

the_big_h · April 2003

i don't check the forum for a day, and all this madness surrounding my little filter popped up?

oh the drama!

good work keeping the post count up Meade :-)

the_big_h · April 2003

you need to check out the 'ping pong ball' demo K&N has in person. I think you'll change your mind once you see it in person :-D

vocus · April 2003

Disconnecting the battery can be a real pain. For some reason, I always thought you had to get a jumpstart after doing that, but I could be wrong.

It takes about 5mins. just to uncover the battery in my car, let alone disconnect it...

mdaffron · April 2003

Ah my good friend, YOU have pinned my motive! Congratulations! As to the others who don't understand a good prod ... to them I say, HA!

Paul ... Jump start it? Wha ...? Does Baltimore have to restart the hydro dams after a power outage? HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! (Hmmm, maybe I'm being too cruel. This IS a Jetta we're talking about, after all ... so don't disconnect your battery in an underground parking deck, OK Paul?)

Ping Pong Ball demo? Is this anything like the bowling ball demo for the amazing 8-pound Oreck XL?

MY car doesn't BREATHE ping-pong balls!!!

You guys gotta go check out the newest link at the Posse. I've downloaded a copy of it to the Files section at the other group.

Meade

P.S. Man, this stuff is great, Larry!

vocus · April 2003

Ping pong demo: It's like in the movie, 'Deliverance'. Throw a ball at it. Anyway...

Maybe you have to jump it when you get a new battery or something then, I don't know.

mdaffron · April 2003

And that's NOT the scene I remember from Deliverance.

Dueling Meadeballs

boggse · April 2003

No, you do not need to do it every time you wash and OIL the filter, just the first time you install it, and even then it isn't absolutely necessary, you just see the results faster that way. The OIL used is biodegradable. To wash it essentially you run water through it. Not a big deal. Certainly takes less cumulative time than changing your air-filter every time you change the motor oil. In fact, when you do disconnect the battery to reset the ECM, your engine will run less optimally until it reprograms itself.

The performance advantage of the K&N FIPK kits is clear. However, they don't have one for the Protege yet. The drop in filters don't do much for you beyond increasing the maintenance interval. In my opinion, the people who see fuel economy decrease with the drop in filters are expecting a performance increase and drive their vehicles harder, thereby decreasing fuel economy. I added one to my 4.0L I-6 Jeep Cherokee. I saw minimal performance gains and about 1 MPG increase in fuel economy, but I know I only have to check about once every 25,000 miles, and clean it every 25,000 to 50,000 miles. I actually have had to clean my throttle body less often since I added the K&N filter.

I should point out that if K&N comes out with a FIPK performance kit for the Protege, it will probably not give much performance gain due to the restrictive header/catalyst design that Mazda uses on the 2.0L in the Protege. Hopefully the Mazda3 will have a better design in this area.

I don't think there is anything wrong with using paper filters, but if you are looking for something better and are willing to spend the money up front then K&N filters are the best option available.

mdaffron · April 2003

I don't change my air filter every time I change my OIL. I think somebody else said that. I change mine roughly every year or every 12K to 15K miles.

I think changing the air filter every 3,000 miles or so is overkill.

I do have an honest question though. How does putting OIL in an air filter help the engine breathe better? Seems it would suffocate things. I mean, try breathing through a dry rag and one soaked in OIL. I honestly want to know what the OIL in these filters does. (Yes, I know paper air filters have a certain degree of lubricant in them -- but they're not wet with OIL as Vocus observed.)

Meade

P.S. Did I miss the memo about today being "capitalize OIL day"?

protege_fan · April 2003

You need to read the FAQ on K&N's page. I honestly think the stories of oil in the throttle body, etc are due to user error (ie. too much oil applied to the filter).

And Paul, no way you need a boost after disconnecting just the negative terminal. I just did this last week and had no problems.

Why would you even need a boost after installing a new battery? The battery is providing the juice and if it's a new battery, well, there you go.

protege_fan · April 2003

They do make one for the Protege. It looks almost exactly like the Injen RD Cold Air Intake (CAI). I'm not sure how this really differs from their FIPK, but K&N does make some kind of intake kit. I've heard prices for the Typhoon kit are outrageous though.

mdaffron · April 2003

But they're good, because they're "Type R" carbs.

Dr. Atkins

protege_fan · April 2003

I suppose if something is different it can't be good. :rolleyes:

meinrad · April 2003

Just like all the other different people.

mdaffron · April 2003

Didn't you read my response to Hank?

Let's talk about brakes!

Meade

protege_fan · April 2003

I understand your motivation, but the Devil's Advocate needs a foil, no?

Umm..brakes, eh? My ABS worked great for me in the snow/ice this morning. And I still love my Nokian NRW's for our winters up here.

mdaffron · April 2003

Missed my point again!!!

Man, it's 81 and sunny here right now ... I wanna be ANYWHERE but at this desk!!! Zoomster's crying in the deck -- I can HEAR him!!!

Meade

boggse · April 2003

Meade,

I capitalized OIL to emphasize that it was OIL and not WAX as you had stated previously. The oil doesn't help it breath better, it arrests the contaminants as they enter the filter. In a sense, the oil is actually the filter medium. What makes it breathe better is using cotton gauze instead of paper.

I think 12,000 to 15,000 miles is a reasonable maintenance interval for changing paper filters. Sorry I confused the magniloquent Meadeball's statements for someone else's.

protege_fan · April 2003

We had a big dump of snow again and it's gonna last until next week

81 and sunny sounds like perfect weather to be zooming around in a Protege.

boggse · April 2003

My neighbor's kid has a 2000W stereo in his Dodge Intrepid. He apparently has a midnight curfew, because, without fail, my wife and I are awakened at that time every Friday and Saturday night.

vocus · April 2003

So why not put nails outside on the road? That would stop them sooner or later..

I know what you mean though. Living in the city, people come up the street with their music loud sometimes and it's very annoying. The bass is so loud that it shakes my windows. Very obtrusive, and I don't even have kids.

I would definitely have said something to the person idling outside last night, that's plain rediculous.

mdaffron · April 2003

Two wrongs don't make a right.

(But three rights make a left. Think about it.)

Meade

P.S. This doesn't happen "sometimes." I get this noise from 6 to 8 a.m. and again from 3 to 5 p.m., Monday through Friday, nine months a year. And every Friday and Saturday night all year long.

Mazda Protegé

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