Mercedes-Benz CLK (2005 and earlier)

nyccarguy · June 2002

As with any car, get yourself a decent set of snow (or winter) tires like Michelin Pilot Sport Alpins or Bridgestone Blizzaks and you should do fine. Tires and driver control are all part of the equation. Even an Audi equipped with Quattro and a set of Z rated performance tires isn't going to anywhere in even a little snow. I know a one of the car mags did a 12 month test of a Porsche 911 C2 and with snows it did fine. mapman1138 mentioned above that he drove an S2000 through a winter with snow tires. The Snows, your controlled input, along with MBs magnificent ASR & ESP should guide you through any winter without any problems.

cira · June 2002

I picked my 230 up in April so I have not faced a New England winter yet. Mine came with Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus tires rated 7 out of 10 for winter traction. I had similar tires on my previous front wheel drive car (never used snows) and never had a problem in the worst of winter weather. Are you guys suggesting that because of the 230's RWD, even highly rated all season tires are insufficient, regardless of prudent driving?

nyccarguy · June 2002

Michelin Energy MXV4 tires are great all season tires. I have them on my Saab and they've been great in what little snow we've had. If we continue this trend of mild winters, then no, you won't need a set of snows. For New England winters though, I'd recommend snow tires. There's a very well respected poster over on the BMW 3 series board who lives in NJ and has always stated that "All Season Tires and a good driver will do fine. And that if it is that bad, I'll leave the car at home and take my wife's AWD MiniVan." After getting having to back his 3 series (with the aforementioned Michelin tires) up a hill, whiloe on a business trip, he said "If I ever move my family up to New Hampshire, I'll get a set of snows for my BMW."

jmess · June 2002

All season tires are a compromise in all seasons. A good set of winter tires will out perform all season tires in the snow/ice. A good set of high performance "summer" tires will out perform all season tires in the wet and dry. Performance is more than going faster, it translates to better stopping, traction, and turning ability. A few feet could mean the difference between being involved in an accident or avoiding an accident. It is pretty hard to have too much traction and control during winter driving, or summer driving for that matter, but is pretty easy not have enough.

jgillitzer · June 2002

Hey MB enthusiasts.

I live in Minnesota and test drove a C230 Magma Red FULLY LOADED..ITs a beaut'!!!! But I have been reading other postings about the deals other people are receiving. I think the MSRP on mine is about $32,000.00. I do have rather poor credit, so they rated me a tier 3....what ever that means. What it boils down to is that I have to put 7000.00 down and my payment would be $350.00. I feel like I am getting ripped. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Jeremy

nyccarguy · June 2002

Is that to finance or lease?

jgillitzer · June 2002

those are the figures to lease

Jeremy

nyccarguy · June 2002

They want you to put $7000 down on a lease to get your payments to $350/month? If you were to put that down payment (cap cost reduction) toward the monthly payments it would be almost $200/month more. So figure that he just quoted you $550/month on a $30,000 car. That's a rip off! If you've got $7000 to put down then you might want to try financing. It is also easier to get approved for financing then leasing. Also shop around for rates from banks & credit unions instead of trying to go through MBCC.

lovemyclk · June 2002

... place that sort of liquid cash down on a lease! The numbers simply don't work in your favor in this case. After all, you're renting this car and paying for the supposed use based upon depreciation. Leasing is such a "profile" transaction (meaning annual mileage/insurance/return condition requirements), that my belief is that you'd be better off purchasing this car.

Everything I've read about the C230 appears to be positive, so you'd probably have a good ownership experience. If you were looking at a SAAB, then leasing might make sense given the uncertain resale value and pending change of platform for the 9-3.

Buy the C230 and enjoy!

jgillitzer · June 2002

I wish you guys could talk to my sales person. I think they only have that Magma red one left on their lot, and I am sure they are getting sick of my squabbling. There are certainly others who will buy it if I don't..but i really want it? I hope things work out. Any other advice?

Thanks,
Jeremy

jstanist · June 2002

jgillitzer · June 2002

Hi everyone-

I just gave a deposit on a new c230 and I am having extreme buyers remorse. Can someoen tell me how weel they like their c 230 and should I be suffering this much. I mean i shouldn't be losing weight, not sleeping, and having stomach pains.

Gratefully,
Jeremy Gillitzer

huntzinger · June 2002

I just gave a deposit on a new c230 and I am having extreme buyers remorse. Can someoen tell me how weel they like their c 230...

You're dropping a big chunk of money on a lease after you've admitted that you have poor credit and your profile states that you currently have a virtually brand new car (2001 Jetta).

...and should I be suffering this much. I mean i shouldn't be losing weight, not sleeping, and having stomach pains.

IMO, you seem to be getting what you deserve: angst for going deeper in the hole. Do yourself a favor and get out of the contract, and then keep that 1 year old Jetta you currently have until you're out of debt and your credit rating reflects that. Good fiscal discipline is the only way to stop the anxiety and stomach pain problems - - NOT buying yet another expensive toy.

JMO; YMMV.

-hh

nyccarguy · June 2002

I agree with Huntzinger. Get you deposit back. Keep the Jetta around until you can get yoursefl on your feet financially with your credit and your savings.

jjpeter · June 2002

...Guys who crave status without the means to back it up. "Big hat, no cattle." Peace of mind is worth more then that latest toy Jeremy, which you'll tire of in less then a year, like what happened with your Jetta purchase. There is nothing wrong with the Jetta, a very good car. Not to be harsh, but like Huntziner stated - "IMO, you seem to be getting what you deserve."

Chill out and try to be happy with what you have. Most people on this planet are happy they have a motor scooter, or even a bike. This whole thread with Jeremy is a sad reflection of the state of mind of our materially oriented society. Not to dive into that discussion (forgive me), but one can be easily sucked into the MORE syndrome if you don't have something deeper to live for.

nyccarguy · June 2002

I agree with you too that people have to come to their senses when it comes to things like this. I was faced with a somewhat similar dilemma with what to do when the lease expires on my 2000 Saab 9-3. I wanted either a BMW 325Ci, C230K Coupe, or A4 1.8TQ so badly I could taste them. I would have swung the payemts, but it would have been a S T R E T C H. My practical side quickly jumped in and said: "You've got the cash saved up to buy a car for mid $20K, why don't you look at cars like the Acura RSX Type S, VW Jetta GLI, or see if you can find a leftover 2001 Honda Prelude which you've been lusting after since you started driving in 1992." My practical side prevailed and I ended up buying a leftover 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH. No payments, no worries (I hope). I can wait to own a car like the C, 3, or A4.

verozahl · June 2002

I still don't see the value in the C230 vs. say, a RSX or Prelude or the high-end Jetta.

jmess · June 2002

Value is like MPG, it may vary based upon the user. I spent a week driving a new Toyota Camry with a 4 banger. Pretty good car from a value standpoint but I wouldn't want one. Honda makes good cars for sure, I have owned quite a few. After many years of driving front wheel drive cars I have really grown to appreciate how nice it is to drive a well balanced rear wheel drive car. The Jetta is a good car also but not as trouble free as Honda IMHO.

I think people who buy cars like the C230 are looking for more than 0-60 and the fastest lap times. I think people are looking for a more complete package of safety and convenience features that aren't available in cars like the RSX. In some case the name on the car is a factor; it adds value for some people.

One could also wonder about the value of a loaded Honda Civic vs. say an RSX. What makes the RSX a better value than the Civic? Both cars will get you where you need to go with a reasonable level of comfort and safety. Some people may value the additional performance of the RSX-S over the Civic EX. Some people may value the reputation that Benz has for safety and durability. Honda has worked hard at marketing Acuras as up scale cars. I would imagine the RSX owner feels a little different driving an Acura RSX than they would a Honda Civic. Some Benz owners feel the same way about their cars.

sphinx99 · June 2002

The value is in the panoramic glass ceiling and safety features that are at least a generation ahead of anything available in the Prelude/RSX. I thought a great deal about the C230 sport coupe and while it wasn't for me, I couldn't avoid the fact that it *does* come with some goodies that aren't even available as options on cars like the RSX, such as luxury paddings, navigation system, tele-aid/GPS, traction control, stability control, and more. A friend of mine recently flipped his shiny new Prelude (just after washing and waxing it) and while he walked out of it without any injuries I think he's now more aware of the lack of things like stability control on other coupes on the market.

In short, the C230 comes up short in driving dynamics in some areas, and probably on price and build quality as well, but it stands strong in some other areas.

wmquan · June 2002

Standard ESP (stability control -- a full-range version, unlike Acura's more limited VSA which isn't available in the RSX yet)

Standard ASR Traction Control

Standard Rear Side Airbags

Standard Side Curtain Airbags, Front and Rear

============

Comes down to your priorities in your vehicle purchase. At this point, I would not buy another low-riding vehicle without some kind of head protection. The NHTSA side-impact tests are misleading because the barrier used is low and does reflect today's SUV's and minivans. IIHS is working on a side-impact test with a higher barrier.

boratf · June 2002

Any ideas (or facts) as to whether this engine can handle 200-300,000 miles of well maintained, conservative use? I am a little worried about the stress of relatively the high compression ratio and the supercharger boost.

Also, does the engine have any belts (supercharger or timing) that have mile/time limited lives? Are they expensive to replace?

I drive 40,000 miles/year.... want the to buy a C230K.....rather than an RSX

jrct9454 · June 2002

...I see no reason for MB to apologize for offering this car, and for that matter, the next-gen A-Class, which is due to come to the NA market.

I've posted before that I am old enough to remember when Mercedes offered cars in this market than nearly everyone could afford. I've owned 13 MBs since 1968, and I am anything but displeased about their decision to return to their roots. They never abandoned those roots in Europe - there were always models and equipment levels available there that kept the marque's feet on the ground, and easily reached by the middle class. Starting in the '80s, with the notable exception of the 190, every model year featured dramatic increases in equipment levels and pricing. I never bought these cars for "luxury", but for safety, relatively robust construction, state-of-the-art engineering, and for that uniquely German ability to combine comfort, ride, and handling in a single package.

Only in North America did MB seek to achieve such exclusivity that the market came to see them as a strictly "luxury" brand - everywhere else in the world, there have always been MBs sold for lots of other good reasons, at much more reasonable prices.

boratf · June 2002

Any ideas (or facts) as to whether this engine can handle 200-300,000 miles of well maintained, conservative use? I am a little worried about the stress of relatively the high compression ratio and the supercharger boost.

Also, does the engine have any belts (supercharger or timing) that have mile/time limited lives? Are they expensive to replace?

I drive 40,000 miles/year.... want the to buy a C230K.....rather than an RSX

jrct9454 · June 2002

I don't think you are at any greater risk with this engine for going to the kinds of mileages you describe than any other engine in the Mercedes lineup. Yes, there are wear items, but I think the thing you want to think about is more fundamental than the question of supercharging:

ALL Mercedes drivetrains are going to be more expensive to maintain to the kinds of miles you describe than ALL Honda drivetrains. Period. Once you accept that fact, then the extra "risk" that the supercharger offers is not especially great. They have lots of experience in this area, and the SC has not been a source of extra difficulty as the miles pile up. More common MB problems with high miles include gaskets, cooling, and injection, but these are across the board with D-B and not unique to SC engines.

The guts of these engines are very, very robust. It's the relatively smaller things that will go wrong vs a Honda-engineered product that will make the experience more expensive.

You have to pay for the relative refinement of this car's road manners vs a RSX in longer-term costs, but that is German characteristic, not a uniquely Mercedes or supercharged Mercedes issue. As the miles pile up, you need a healthy reserve in the bank account to deal with the differences.

verozahl · June 2002

yada yada yada

RSX/Integra came out with Acura first thing; it's part of the Acura heritage. It's not 'downmarket for them.'

The C230 is clearly downmarket for Benz.

By logical thought, it's ridiculous to say "Acura should not have a RSX, it's not a true luxury car, but Benz should have a C230."

jrct9454 · June 2002

sphinx99 · June 2002

It may be new here in the US but MB has been selling downscale models everywhere else in the world for quite some time.

jjpeter · June 2002

So what if the C230 put Benz within the reach of more people? Something about the $30k barrier that many won't go over. If you ask me, MB is doing the car buying public a nice favor, offering this little jewel for under $27K, with the same build quality, safety features, thoughtful ergonomics, not to mention the *fun factor* - as their higher priced line up. Every time I get into our kick-[non-permissible content removed]-230 Kompressor, I just grin and soak in the feeling of driving one of the worlds top marque names, for the price of a V6 VW Passat. Thanks Mercedes!

BTW, European roads are full of MB A class and Smart vehicles. The Smart is a two seater, a very cool little run-about that is inexpensive and The car to have if one wants to find parking in downtown Rome!

jrct9454 · June 2002

...ONLY IN THE NORTH AMERICAN MARKET has D-B pursued a strategy of being perceived as a purely "luxury" brand; my guess is that 'whotheman' is not old enough, or well-traveled enough, to realize the points the rest of us are trying to make.

The best selling small MB in the EU has historically been the smallest engine W201/2/3, usually with a 1.8 or 1.9 liter 4 making on the order of 120 hp or so. These were often purchased in the "old days" [as little as 10 years ago] with crank windows and no AC, and cloth seats were pretty much universal. The same car was sold here with the largest engine available, leather, sunroof, alloy wheels, power seats, climate control, etc. as standard, with the price up to 40% higher than Germans were paying. And this doesn't even take into account the A-Class, or the ubiquitous 4 cylinder, manual trans E-class cars that I'm sure 'who' would find too declasse to even look at.

Good engineering, fine ride/handling compromise, safety leadership, robust construction - these are what D-B has been about for at least the entire post-war period. Only the S-class and AMG cars get extraordinary road respect in the EU - the rest of the line is well-regarded but hardly considered precious metal. So spare me the thumping about the C230 being some kind of wierd marketing "experiment". It's just part of the whole picture, and has been everywhere but here forever.

As for dissing anything from Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Honda, Toyota, et al, you won't hear any of that from me. I've owned them, too, and I see no reason why all of them shouldn't pursue every part of the market they think they can penetrate. Vive la competition...

jjpeter · June 2002

Nice post John. Your insights are some of the ones I really enjoy reading. I see you contribute to the Honda board, and others. Folks just like to find arguments to support their preceptions. And as we know,,, preception is not necessarily reality. But, like you said, Vive la difference!

bornfree · June 2002

Hi jrct9454,

what news do you have on the A-class, and what was your source?

I've wanted one since I rented one to tour Spain a couple of years ago.

c230jeff · June 2002

Funny jjpeter should make the comparison he did, as I just traded in my 2000 Passat V6 (loved it, BTW, just a few minor ergonomic complaints, but a very reliable ride for the past 45k miles) for a 2002 C230KMT. I love this car! Orion Blue, Charcoal, leather, 6-spd manual, lots of goodies.

To say downscale is a travesty, this car is a phenomenal deal for 30k, no matter how you slice it.

I have lurked in this forum for a few weeks as I scoped out my options, and I am more than a little concerned about some of the posts, particularly the key issues, rattles, etc., I am hoping I am not *blessed* with these problems.

In reading about Lisa from Courtesy and her $1,790 3-yr extended warranty, I presented this information to R&H Motors in Maryland, and they cheerfully honored it. No questions asked. I have had a VERY pleasant MB-buying experience, here's hoping my MB-OWNING experience proves the same.

Cheers,
Jeff

verozahl · June 2002

Benz owns Chrysler here. They should use Chrysler to sell downmarket cars. Benz wants to hold the entire market (going Down Town) and Volkswagen wants to get "non-snobby rich people" to trade their S-Classes in for Phaetons. Whatever. These crazy things may work in the land of my ancestors, but I don't happen to remember the Stuttgart and Wolfsburg area codes. Call em up, remind them that America is a bit different country.

As for the RSX... next gen, if American Honda wants to use the H badge on them and sell a new car as the 'bottom' A badge model to compete with the Lexus IS and Infiniti G, that would be fine by me. Just remember, Acura started out with the Legend and Integra and they haven't changed much sense from that track, and it's worked fine.

Benz and VW are doing some crazy things. Because I live oh so near to DCX and VW-Audi North American headquarters, I'll be saying a lot of C230s and Phaetons in the not-so-far future... maybe? Maybe.

merc1 · June 2002

"They only put that car out to build volume and regain #1 sales status over Lexus. AND to mask the slow sales of the current C-Class.""

Wrong, it was added to draw in younger buyers, primarily. Mercedes-Benz has never made a big deal about trying to lead in sales. Funny the new C-Class sold very well (2001) before the C230 model as added.

As far as trying to undercut Lexus.....not hardly. Mercedes still sells more cars of higher sticker prices than anyone including Lexus. Every Mercedes-Benz costs thou$$ands more than the equivalent Lexus.

M

jrct9454 · June 2002

...However...

To answer the question about the A-Class, the sources are everywhere. D-B execs have repeatedly said that they plan to bring the next-gen A-Class to North America, after the redesign due in 2004. As an MBCA member, those quotes are frequently in the club magazine, but beyond that, all of the car magazines have said the same thing at one time or another in the last 18 months.

Understand, the next A will have from the get-go the longer wheelbase alternative [which was a recent addition to the line], and this bigger car is the only one we would receive in our market. Also, it's likely the next A will be a pretty radical change from the current car, with a lower center of gravity, nicer ride, and even more room inside....plus all-new engines from the new aluminum 4-cyl lineup. The presumption is that we will eventually get a hybrid or even full fuel-cell drivetrain in this car, which DCX needs to keep the CA ARB happy.

Anyway, this news has been out there for some time. They will need something to compete with the BMW 1er, though I'm not sure the A qualifies, since the 1er will be RWD, and presumably "sportier" than any A-class. There is also a rumor [and in this case, that's all it is] that by then, the C-Coupe will have undergone a complete new body change, though I am skeptical about that given the fact the the W203 chassis is only going on 3 years old at this point.

verozahl · June 2002

"As far as trying to undercut Lexus.....not hardly. Mercedes still sells more cars of higher sticker prices than anyone including Lexus. Every Mercedes-Benz costs thou$$ands more than the equivalent Lexus."

Wie sagt man 'overpriced' auf Deutsch???

[Antwortet: überzukostet!]

merc1 · June 2002

Trollism in German....how clever.

M

merckx · June 2002

Like you,I've noticed how every year Mercedes was making more and more of what were options standard. I'm really against this,as I've always admired the cars,and think they are worth the money,but the "Command" system was about the last straw. What an obsurd waste of $2,000 this S-Class standard piece of equipment is. It'll probably be an E standard any year now...

jrct9454 · June 2002

...will be allegedly vastly improved in its next iteration, but I too find this to be an unnecessary complication in what is already a too-complicated package of electronics. It would be one thing if they got all of this sorted out in a reliable fashion for production, but instead the whole electronics system in the cars is the Achilles heel at the moment. If you sift through the complaints in the various MB boards, about 95% are attributable to electronic/computer/software failures.

Some of it may be "neat" on the drawing board, but just too troublesome in the field. Most of this is their continued, stubborn dependence on the same EU suppliers that keep dropping the ball year after year.

verozahl · June 2002

Hmm, Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti aren't prompting Benz, Bimmer, and Audi to make options standard, I hope. If they can't charge $1000 each for auto tranny and metallic paint and sunroofs, then... aw man.

merckx · June 2002

Verozahl,there really isn't any,because Mercedes started loading up US bound cars when the major "Accura" influence was the first generation Accord coming with its major contribution to motoring,the standard lidded coin box.

jrct9454 · July 2002

...you need a history lesson, but I'm not sure I'm up for it today. As noted by Merc above, all of this predates the arrival of the Japanese upscale offerings by 5-10 years [around 1980].

I believe all debates about marketing strategies are a huge waste of time - brand management is already a thoroughly discredited discipline. Either the product meets expectations at the price offered, or it doesn't. Let every maker compete to offer us as many choices as possible, and the buyer will decide what survives.

zman46 · July 2002

Has anyone heard if MB will replace the 2.3 liter engine with a 1.8 liter SC engine? My sister was having work done at the dealer on her 190D and one of the service techs told her a 1.8 was coming out. Don't know if it is fact, fiction, more choices of engines or a replacement for the 2.3 liter. Seems odd they would drop in a smaller motor. Thanks

verozahl · July 2002

merckx, are you referring to the Accord or to the Legend?

I'm up for some history whenever you want to go to a flashback to the days when Benzes were exclusive and not seen on every dang street corner. Why they are, I don't know, because they're overpriced in comparison to even Lexi, which aren't exactly "value."

Still don't see the value in the C230. Look at the options list. Metallic paint charge and then "extra option" surcharge on top of the option charges for equipment that should be standard.

Blech.

sphinx99 · July 2002

The value is in the safety equipment period. I do agree with you that if you look beyond safety equipment and the slick roof, I'm not sure why anyone would buy the car. But, the safety equipment is standard and the panoramic roof is cheap and unique. For those two options alone even I'd consider a C230 coupe. In fact, if they knocked the price down a few grand, and if I weren't reading horror stories about the electrical systems on these cars, this would likely be my next daily driver.

jrct9454 · July 2002

We've discussed this in earlier posts - you may want to go back a few hundred and skim forward.

Briefly, so as not to repeat all of it:

Yes, there is a completely new, long overdue overhaul of all of MB's gasoline inline 4s coming for the '03 model year. They are all-aluminum [the current 4 uses an iron block], will have balance shafts, and will be set up to use direct injection, though that will only appear on a limited number of models initially.

Some will be supercharged; it is presumed that we will get one or more of these new engines in the C-Coupe in '03 - exactly which one, and exactly how much hp, hasn't been made public yet. Speculation is around the 170-180 hp range from a 1.8 with SC, which would be down a bit from the current car, but with improved fuel consumption, and quieter, smoother operation.

c230jeff · July 2002

Anyone have information about integrating an existing Motorola Timeport into the C230's multifuntion display?

I didn't want to shell out the outrageous price for the integrated phone system, especially since I already had a Timeport, but it would be nice to integrate into the system.

gngrbadman · July 2002

im having a tough time getting used to this hatchback idea and i dont want a four door, what would really do it for me is if they made that C230 as a two door coupe with a trunk similar to the 2door honda accord setup (have you seen the pic of the new 2003 honda accord 2door coupe yet? email me and ill send it to you)
i cant believe mercedes is not offering the C230 in a two door coupe with a trunk and i dont want to buy the hatchback just to find that a two door with trunk is in the works

jrct9454 · July 2002

...the car you're describing is called the CLK, and starts somewhere north of $45k for the newly redesigned '03.

Personally, the hatch is exactly what I want, and am surprised more of them are not offered in this market. SAAB is apparently going to drop the 5 door from the 9-3 lineup when the new car debuts in the fall - I'm completely mystified where the American public comes from on this topic. EVERYWHERE else in the world, it's the hatch that is the most desireable configuration.

Anyway, the 2-door C you want is out there, and has been out there for 4 years...that's the niche the CLK is supposed to fill.

lngtonge18 · July 2002

Could you please clarify what is so hard to stomach about hatchbacks? Is it just how the car looks, or is it something else? Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is with trunks. Unless it's just a preference in how a trunk looks, I see no other plus in having one. It certainly makes no sense safety wise. If someone breaks into your car, they can just as easily break into the trunk as they can a hatch. And a trunk can't hold anything bulky or odd sized, no matter if the seat folds down or not. Anyway, I was just curious as to why you didn't like hatchbacks.

Mercedes-Benz CLK (2005 and earlier)

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles