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Comments
tidester, host
It would be a big mistake to put much faith in the EPA mileage numbers. Unfortunately, I think that the EPA stickers are having a big influence on buying decisions. I am trying to sell the Mountaineer (v8, audiophile, curtain air bags, tow, etc - everything except the sun roof, running boards, and AWD), and have found that the resale values have fallen off of a cliff. According to the computer databases, the resale value should be $14,250. I was asking $12,500, but everyone lost interest when I told them the mileage is 93,000. Today I noticed an ad by someone else in southern CA asking just $12,900 for a 2002 V8 AWD Mountaineer with only 23,000 miles, so I am lowering my price to $11,000 and will see what happens.
The key word there is "supposedly." There is nothing more special about 100,000 miles than 90,000 or 110,000 with the only clear trend being the more miles you put on the more things "fall apart." All cars, regardless of origin, suffer the same indignities of aging and wear.
tidester, host
Now she's on her 2nd Explorer with 120K miles, yet she cringed at 70K, 80K, 90K, now she's in the "WOW, I'm still running with my original A/C compressor".
As a Ford Explorer owner, and one that tries to buy American cars, I do have to agree with this statement!
I think his pitch was "Rich Corinthian Leather"- and you're right, I've test driven a lot of cars over the past couple of years and the leather is crap until you get to BMW/MB/Lexus/Infinity/etc. I have the first car I've ever owned with leather, and all my kids do is complain in the winter that the seats are cold (of course, wife & I are nice and toasty with the heated seats!) Give me high-quality cloth anyday! :surprise:
I once tried to sell a beautiful gold Grand Marquis that had 93,000 miles on the clock. The car looked and ran like new, but the mileage was indeed a big turn-off to potential buyers UNTIL, I put 1 OWNER in the ad. Once I did that, it sold right away. Seems that mitigated the mileage stigma.
I think you'll be able to market your Mountaineer just fine, you may need to do some creative advertising, but lots of people know that a well maintained Ford isn't done at 90,000 miles.
My Mountaineer had three factory defects - a pinched fuel tank vent line, a bad differential (probably not assembled properly), and a spot in the paint on one door, all quickly repaired under warranty. Since then, the only failure has been a little idler pully on the front of the engine. I strongly suspect that it will run to 150,000 miles or more with few problems. I am only getting rid of it due to the rough ride, not any concern over it falling apart..
The car it replaced, a 1996 Impala SS, was another matter. The transmission failed twice in 120,000 mostly highway miles, the seat tracks broke (bad design, weak plastic between the metal parts), a spring came through the seat and tore my pants, and the factory carpet only lasted about 12,000 miles between changes uptil I upgraded to the Cadillac carpet.
We also sold our 1994 Thunderbird LX V8 at about 120,000 miles. It was an excellent car. Besides occasional replacement of the warped front brake rotors (a known design flaw), it only had a few minor problems, all of which cost less than $1,700 to repair.
I gave away my 1984 Pontiac Sunbird LE Turbo when it had run approximately 160,000 miles, and the engine, turbo, and transmission had never been out of the car.
We gave away my mother's 1970 AMC Ambassador with 140,000 miles on it, and it only needed a few minor repairs.
If used American brand vehicles with at or over 100,000 miles, then why do Edmunds and the others show such high values for them?
It doesn't matter what anybody shows for them, but what they will sell for in your local market. I believe "Ant" is in Southern California as I am. Gas is still well over two dollars a gallon. Brand new and used SUV's are "just sitting" on dealer's lot. No one's buying. It's also been my experience that selling a car/suv on your own that is valued over $5,000.00 is a very tough sell.
Rising gasoline prices have motorists rethinking SUV purchases (Newsday)
Steve, Host
Yes, your right. Banks do not like to finance vehicles with higher miles. Way too much risk!
This probably a factor in Ford's rapidly declining Explorer, Mountaineer, Expedition and Excursion sales - if people are buying what they can not afford, they may also be barely able to afford the fuel. The effect of the fuel price increases is magnified by the fact that so many consumers are swimming in debt. I certainly regret ever having financed a vehicle purchase.
I understand that the 2006 Explorer and Mountaineer may obtain better mileage with the new 3-valve V8. I wonder how much better?
Clearly though, the 3V is more efficient, or the 6 sp. transmission helps, or both. The 05 did better, and is more fun to drive too.
1 - 4.17
2 - 2.34
3 - 1.52
4 - 1.14
5 - 0.86
6 - 0.69
Rear Axle 3.55
These are for the 2006 Mountaineer, which should be the same.
Did you play much with the transmission?
* Kickdown at various speeds & gears?
* Manually upshifting & downshifting.?
How smooth were the shifts?
I can't argue with that!
tidester, host
I think it's the finest transmission I've ever seen. If it holds up, it's perfect.
Why do you say "ZF"?
That's not what I heard ... are you sure? I need to know in order to settle a bet.
Here's a link that will help you win your bet.
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=17407
And if you need a link that marries ZF into the new Navigator then
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=18480&CFID=392414&CFTOKEN=27643296&jsessionid=b4302620fc0a$D7$A2$3
The second link doesn't say who BUILDS the transmission, which is my question, and my bet.
Second link, 2nd paragraph. Just hold down CNTRL and F, you get the FIND box, type on ZF in the search, and ALL the ZF's on the pages will pop up. Just read it.
Here's another article that explains how Ford sort of...took over ZF...
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_ford_zf_no_2/
Is it built at a ZF plant, or a Ford plant? It can't be both.
The issue of the bet is: Who physically owns the plant where the six-speed Navigator transmission is manufactured, and where is that plant?
The Batavia plant (outside Cincinatti Ohio) was a joint venture between ZF (51% stake 4 years ago), and Ford (49%) stake. ZF was too slow working on the CVT, Ford just walked right on in and "assumed" 100% ownership. Ironically, Ford doesn't list this plant as one of there's on their website list of manufacturing plants. Neither does ZF. But Ford does control it since it's management personel, took over. Blue collar jobs weren't affected from the management transition, and ZF was passive over the situation.
Now if prior to 1999, you were hired, then you were considered a Ford employee. If you were hired past 1999, then your considered "Batavia Transmission LLC employee". This same plant produces the automatic transmissions in the Escape/Mariner/Tribute.
Now as to where the 6 Speed RWD tranny is built, depends where the unit is being shipped from. ZF has a few factories here in N.A., I believe the techinical center (head office) is Northville Michigan, although they do have another major factory in N.Carolina.
The 6 speed RWD units (have different variations of them, depending upon the torque application of the engine mated to it)) are used in Jag S/XJ, Navi, LR's, and they supply to BMW and many other automakers as well.
Where the specific transmission is being manufactured, will depend upon the sticker on the vehicle window. Some might be from U.S. plants, some might be Mexico, some might be from Europe. Obviously if one transmission plant is short on capacity, they'll shift and ship from another factory to one of Fords factories.
ZF is already at the Ford Manufacturing Campus in Chiago, where the 500/Montego/FS are being built. It's a flexible manufacturing plant which Ford allows it's major suppliers to set up shop and build there, so parts are easily available for Ford vehicles. THAT shop supplies front and rear components for the 500/M/FS, as well as the transmission for the new Navi.
So I guess it all comes down (to answer your question) with what the sticker will say. BUT if the sticker says Batavia Ohio, Cincinati, or Chicago, IL then consider it a Ford.
Actually, the issue is not at all sticky. The ZF 6-speed transmission used in the Explorer/Mountaineer/Navigator is manufactured by Ford.
It's made under license from ZF at the Ford-owned Livonia Transmission Plant in Livonia, Michigan.
It cannot come from the Batavia plant; it isn't tooled for the RWD 6-speed.
Did you win the bet though?
Only the FWD version, not the RWD version. (The one we're discussing here)
I won the bet. It was with myself. I bet that the following statement was incorrect, and its author wouldn't clarify the issue:
"That is who builds the transmissions"
Maybe I'm nit-picking, but I think it's important to know whether a component as significant as the transmission is built by Ford, or purchased from a supplier.
The 4.0 L engine still gets the 5R55.
Let's take note how much praise the current Explorer received upon it's introduction. It might not be the fastest, corner the best, or be the quietest, but the secret to the Explorer's success as been it's various trim levels, all around comfort, drivability, and accessibility. It might not excel in one specific area (as most journalists have written about it), but it offers the overall package placed together.
Anyhow as it is, more people are migrating to car-based SUV's (and I agree, since most do not need these much bulk to begin with), but the Explorer will certainly have it's loyal crowd of customers, and that in itself, has a high repeat buyer rate.... (I believe in it's segment of Mid-size truck based SUV's from the last paper that went thru my desk).
If anything, it was the other manufacturer's who were late to the party. While the Explorer banked on it's success in the 90's, only the Grand Cherokee and Blazer were it's closest competitors. The foreign automakers didn't venture much into this segment, and if they did... usually with half-baked vehicles. Pathfinder probably it's strongest foreign competitor, and sales of it couldn't hold a candle to that of the Explorer. Now the Pathfinder is truck based, but definately late to the party since car-based SUV segment is growing.
I see that the 2006 Mountaineer media information specifically references the very low rate of off road usage of SUVs and makes reference to changes meant to make the vehicle better on-road. I bought my 2002 Mountainner to have the utility of a wagon, the safety and repairability of a full frame, the driving dynamics of a V8 with rear wheel drive, a nice interior with fancy features, and the hitch to tow the speed boat I never bought. Of course, with the rise of modern station wagons such as the Freestyle, I wonder if the 2010 Explorer / Mountaineer will be repositioned to be more off-road capable to suit their names?
There's a new midsize car based SUV (internally nicknamed Edge). Think of it as a Highlander/Pilot competitor. Based off the CD3 architecture (Mazda6, Fusion, Milan, Zephyr) and be cloned after the next Lincoln Aviator and Mazda CX-7. Customers are expected to migrate into this, or the Freestyle if they believe the Explorer is too trucky for there needs.
Can you tell me why the Explorer 5-speed auto transmission is sometimes referred to as "adaptive"?