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Ford Explorer Mercury Mountaineer 2005 and earlier

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Comments

  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    That would be Ricardo Montalbán (aka Khan from Star Trek!). Along with Lee Iacocca, he is often credited with having saved Chrysler from bankruptcy.

    tidester, host
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    FWIW, I have a Mountaineer Premier, and am having no problems with the leather seats. I had an 02 Mountaineer with the same seats, kept for 3 years, no problems. However, my friend has an 03 Aviator, and although he has not noticed it, his seat looks like hell to me.......... So I know what you may be talking about.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    I decided to replace my 2002 Mountaineer RWD V8 with a 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited. Guess what? The "sophisticated" 3.3 V6 in the Sienna, rated at 19 city and 26 highway, is thus far only able to produce 19 MPG, while the Mountaineer V8 is rated 14 city and 19 highway and produces 17MPG for me. The Sienna is fancy and rides smoothly and quietly, but the mileage is a real disappointment.

    It would be a big mistake to put much faith in the EPA mileage numbers. Unfortunately, I think that the EPA stickers are having a big influence on buying decisions. I am trying to sell the Mountaineer (v8, audiophile, curtain air bags, tow, etc - everything except the sun roof, running boards, and AWD), and have found that the resale values have fallen off of a cliff. According to the computer databases, the resale value should be $14,250. I was asking $12,500, but everyone lost interest when I told them the mileage is 93,000. Today I noticed an ad by someone else in southern CA asking just $12,900 for a 2002 V8 AWD Mountaineer with only 23,000 miles, so I am lowering my price to $11,000 and will see what happens.
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    Don't know how many miles are on your Toyota, but if it's less than 12,000 it's not the time to measure mpg. Motors, (especially Japanese) are "tight" when new and do not produce the "true gas mileage" until the motors have a few miles on them. Also, the resale for SUV's is now terrible. I was looking at a NEW EDDIE BAUER EXPEDITION at $28,000.00 after all rebates in Southern California. I also saw a '04 Explorer Limited w/the V6 and front wheel drive at just $15,000.00 with less than 30,000 miles on the dealer's lot. Remember, blue books, black books, edmunds, are all guides. IT'S WHAT YOUR LOCAL MARKET WILL BEAR when a used car is involved. I hate to tell you this---but your used SUV is going to be a tough sell! Good luck and keep us posted!
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I would think it is quite reasonable for anyone to run when they see your vehicle has 93K miles...not to bash American cars, but when one sees you are just shy of the magic 100,000 miles, when everything supposedly "falls apart", and there is certainly no more warranty left, it would be a surprise if folks lined up to buy your vehicle...I suppose with gas at $2 gallon, used and new SUV sales are dropping, add those factors to your 93K and I believe you have quite a challenge on your hands...good luck...
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    ... just shy of the magic 100,000 miles, when everything supposedly "falls apart"

    The key word there is "supposedly." There is nothing more special about 100,000 miles than 90,000 or 110,000 with the only clear trend being the more miles you put on the more things "fall apart." All cars, regardless of origin, suffer the same indignities of aging and wear.

    tidester, host
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Ironically I had a friends that woudl constantly buy Accords for the past 2 decades... And never failed, at the 70K mark, the transmission would die.... The first time "Well, it can happen to anyone" she said... The 2nd next one, "Well, maybe it's just bad luck"... ON the 3rd time, her excuse was "Ok, there's something wrong with this picture"... and on the fourth one, "Ok I've HAD IT!!!"

    Now she's on her 2nd Explorer with 120K miles, yet she cringed at 70K, 80K, 90K, now she's in the "WOW, I'm still running with my original A/C compressor".
  • daryll44daryll44 Member Posts: 307
    Your "Honda vs Ford" story MAY be true, but it sounds very suspicious frankly. I am a happy Mountaineer owner, but even saying that I have to agree with the original poster. Truth be told, used car values generally reflect an American car worth near zero at 100,000 miles while Japanese cars have a less steep depreciation curve not reflecting "near zero" residual value until 150,000 miles.
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    "Truth be told, used car values generally reflect an American car worth near zero at 100,000 miles while Japanese cars have a less steep depreciation curve not reflecting "near zero" residual value until 150,000 miles."

    As a Ford Explorer owner, and one that tries to buy American cars, I do have to agree with this statement!
  • fitguyfitguy Member Posts: 220
    "Remember when Ricaldo Mantalbaum (or whatever the heck his name was) huckstered "fine corinthian leather" for Chrysler."

    I think his pitch was "Rich Corinthian Leather"- and you're right, I've test driven a lot of cars over the past couple of years and the leather is crap until you get to BMW/MB/Lexus/Infinity/etc. I have the first car I've ever owned with leather, and all my kids do is complain in the winter that the seats are cold (of course, wife & I are nice and toasty with the heated seats!) Give me high-quality cloth anyday! :surprise:
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "add those factors to your 93K and I believe you have quite a challenge on your hands...good luck..."

    I once tried to sell a beautiful gold Grand Marquis that had 93,000 miles on the clock. The car looked and ran like new, but the mileage was indeed a big turn-off to potential buyers UNTIL, I put 1 OWNER in the ad. Once I did that, it sold right away. Seems that mitigated the mileage stigma.

    I think you'll be able to market your Mountaineer just fine, you may need to do some creative advertising, but lots of people know that a well maintained Ford isn't done at 90,000 miles.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Thanks nvbanker for the suggestion about "one owner."

    My Mountaineer had three factory defects - a pinched fuel tank vent line, a bad differential (probably not assembled properly), and a spot in the paint on one door, all quickly repaired under warranty. Since then, the only failure has been a little idler pully on the front of the engine. I strongly suspect that it will run to 150,000 miles or more with few problems. I am only getting rid of it due to the rough ride, not any concern over it falling apart..

    The car it replaced, a 1996 Impala SS, was another matter. The transmission failed twice in 120,000 mostly highway miles, the seat tracks broke (bad design, weak plastic between the metal parts), a spring came through the seat and tore my pants, and the factory carpet only lasted about 12,000 miles between changes uptil I upgraded to the Cadillac carpet.

    We also sold our 1994 Thunderbird LX V8 at about 120,000 miles. It was an excellent car. Besides occasional replacement of the warped front brake rotors (a known design flaw), it only had a few minor problems, all of which cost less than $1,700 to repair.

    I gave away my 1984 Pontiac Sunbird LE Turbo when it had run approximately 160,000 miles, and the engine, turbo, and transmission had never been out of the car.

    We gave away my mother's 1970 AMC Ambassador with 140,000 miles on it, and it only needed a few minor repairs.

    If used American brand vehicles with at or over 100,000 miles, then why do Edmunds and the others show such high values for them?
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    If used American brand vehicles with at or over 100,000 miles, then why do Edmunds and the others show such high values for them?

    It doesn't matter what anybody shows for them, but what they will sell for in your local market. I believe "Ant" is in Southern California as I am. Gas is still well over two dollars a gallon. Brand new and used SUV's are "just sitting" on dealer's lot. No one's buying. It's also been my experience that selling a car/suv on your own that is valued over $5,000.00 is a very tough sell.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I'm in Miami, but close enough heh... I haven't seen anything below $2 in years... and I'm talking YEARS. The market here for used truck based SUV isn't very good actually. A friend of mine wanted to trade in his 2001 Explorer Sport, with 42K miles and $5K is the best he could do. Obviously he didn't even bother, he just decided not to buy anything anyways. He was going to replace it with a car based vehicle, and chances are the Explorer will outlast that other vehicle twice over. And to think he paid $23K just 4 years ago for it....
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    Just curious, did you try trading in the Explorer when you bought the Toyota?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Many mid-size SUVs have been similarly affected. Edmunds.com says a 2-year-old Ford Explorer, long America's favorite SUV by sales volume, is worth about 5.5 percent less now than a 2-year-old Explorer was worth a year ago. Average price to buy one now: about $15,000."

    Rising gasoline prices have motorists rethinking SUV purchases (Newsday)

    Steve, Host
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    ANT14 - Several dealers had already told me that they did not want anything with higher mileage, and one said that 60,000 was their limit. It took me over three months to sell my 1996 Impala SS, a "hot" model, so I will not be surprised if it takes four or more months to sell the Mountaineer. Besides the ads, I need to make time to park it in Santa Ana and other such places with large working class populations.
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    "Several dealers had already told me that they did not want anything with higher mileage, and one said that 60,000 was their limit."

    Yes, your right. Banks do not like to finance vehicles with higher miles. Way too much risk!
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    It seems to me that there is too much risk on both sides - the lenders making loans to people who are buying what they can not afford, and the buyers taking on a loan on a rapidly depreciating item. Too bad that people do not pay cash for vehicles.

    This probably a factor in Ford's rapidly declining Explorer, Mountaineer, Expedition and Excursion sales - if people are buying what they can not afford, they may also be barely able to afford the fuel. The effect of the fuel price increases is magnified by the fact that so many consumers are swimming in debt. I certainly regret ever having financed a vehicle purchase.

    I understand that the 2006 Explorer and Mountaineer may obtain better mileage with the new 3-valve V8. I wonder how much better?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Just a tad, although the certification from the EPA isn't in yet... if so, I'll let you know.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well - ahem - having just rented an 05 Navigator in Santa Fe for 4 days and driven the snot out of it, I can give you a little info on mileage. Using the onboard fuel computer only (I'm way to lazy to use a pencil), the 05 Navigator averaged exactly 1MPG more than my 03 Navigator does in very similar driving. The one variable I couldn't equalize was altitude - which was a difference of 1500 ft to 7500 ft. - a huge difference. The mileage differential may have been a lot better if the altitude had been the same. Also, the 05 only had 5000 miles on it, hardly broken in, and mine has 28,000 miles on it, well broken in.

    Clearly though, the 3V is more efficient, or the 6 sp. transmission helps, or both. The 05 did better, and is more fun to drive too.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    It should deliver better MPG. Check the transmission ratios:
    1 - 4.17
    2 - 2.34
    3 - 1.52
    4 - 1.14
    5 - 0.86
    6 - 0.69
    Rear Axle 3.55

    These are for the 2006 Mountaineer, which should be the same.

    Did you play much with the transmission?
    * Kickdown at various speeds & gears?
    * Manually upshifting & downshifting.?
    How smooth were the shifts?
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I do agree with you, nothing TRULY magical about 90K, 100, 120K, but once a car breaks 6 digits at 100K, potential trade-in at many car dealers will not get you top dollar...not much different from 90K, but there is still a psychological barrier that anything, American or Asian, at 100K, its best years are behind it, not ahead of it...maybe Benz has a reputation for just being "broken in" at 125-150K, but no Big 3 vehicle has that rep...values do drop precipitiously (sp?) once it breaks 100K...
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    ... but there is still a psychological barrier ...

    I can't argue with that! :)

    tidester, host
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    It appears the transmission is a shift by wire setup - there is no linkage feel at all like there is traditionally - it feels like a Mattel joystick - a little less satisfying than I would like personally, but that's beside the point. If you want to go to manumatic mode you take it out of Overdrive by moving the selector over to the right, you get the Overdrive Off warning in the message center, and you're in manual select, and in 4th gear. From there you can go all the way back to 1st if you want to. Kickdowns are easy and prompt, and in automatic, you can do a kickdown from 6th to 1st in one shift if you want to, pretty darn fast. The shifts are like butter, by the way. You don't even feel them, unless you're under hard acceleration.

    I think it's the finest transmission I've ever seen. If it holds up, it's perfect.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    And the abuse that monster can take. This is one of those "overly engineered" items Ford has recently done.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    ANT:

    Why do you say "ZF"?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    That is who builds the transmissions. Same transmission being used in some LandRover's and Jaguars. ZF Friedrichshafen AG and Ford Motor Company formed a joint venture - ZF Transmission Tech. Not only do they contribute to CVT transmission in Batavia, but are involved in the next generation of 6 speed automatic transmission to be used in RWD vehicles (high capacity that is).
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    "That is who builds the transmissions."

    That's not what I heard ... are you sure? I need to know in order to settle a bet.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Heh, where did they say the transmission came from ?

    Here's a link that will help you win your bet.

    http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=17407

    And if you need a link that marries ZF into the new Navigator then

    http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=18480&CFID=392414&CFTOKEN=27643296&jsessionid=b4302620fc0a$D7$A2$3
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    The first link is to the CVT transmission that's not used in the Navigator, Explorer, or Mountaineer.

    The second link doesn't say who BUILDS the transmission, which is my question, and my bet.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    First link, read the whole article. The title says Batavia, but it's ALL in there. There's a relationship between ZF, Batavia and Ford, and the article details it.

    Second link, 2nd paragraph. Just hold down CNTRL and F, you get the FIND box, type on ZF in the search, and ALL the ZF's on the pages will pop up. Just read it.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    I must be dense. I still don't see where the transmission is actually manufactured. Is it built at a ZF plant, or a Ford plant?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Well considering it's a joint venture, you could say it's both. It's a joint venture partnership and they have worked together, and now Ford has pretty much the upper hand over the organization.

    Here's another article that explains how Ford sort of...took over ZF...

    http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_ford_zf_no_2/
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Let me ask again:

    Is it built at a ZF plant, or a Ford plant? It can't be both.

    The issue of the bet is: Who physically owns the plant where the six-speed Navigator transmission is manufactured, and where is that plant?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    That's the sticky part of the story. To make the story short, ZF is a huge international company specializing in drivetrain components for all possible applications from passenger cars, to trucks, to aviation.

    The Batavia plant (outside Cincinatti Ohio) was a joint venture between ZF (51% stake 4 years ago), and Ford (49%) stake. ZF was too slow working on the CVT, Ford just walked right on in and "assumed" 100% ownership. Ironically, Ford doesn't list this plant as one of there's on their website list of manufacturing plants. Neither does ZF. But Ford does control it since it's management personel, took over. Blue collar jobs weren't affected from the management transition, and ZF was passive over the situation.

    Now if prior to 1999, you were hired, then you were considered a Ford employee. If you were hired past 1999, then your considered "Batavia Transmission LLC employee". This same plant produces the automatic transmissions in the Escape/Mariner/Tribute.

    Now as to where the 6 Speed RWD tranny is built, depends where the unit is being shipped from. ZF has a few factories here in N.A., I believe the techinical center (head office) is Northville Michigan, although they do have another major factory in N.Carolina.

    The 6 speed RWD units (have different variations of them, depending upon the torque application of the engine mated to it)) are used in Jag S/XJ, Navi, LR's, and they supply to BMW and many other automakers as well.

    Where the specific transmission is being manufactured, will depend upon the sticker on the vehicle window. Some might be from U.S. plants, some might be Mexico, some might be from Europe. Obviously if one transmission plant is short on capacity, they'll shift and ship from another factory to one of Fords factories.

    ZF is already at the Ford Manufacturing Campus in Chiago, where the 500/Montego/FS are being built. It's a flexible manufacturing plant which Ford allows it's major suppliers to set up shop and build there, so parts are easily available for Ford vehicles. THAT shop supplies front and rear components for the 500/M/FS, as well as the transmission for the new Navi.

    So I guess it all comes down (to answer your question) with what the sticker will say. BUT if the sticker says Batavia Ohio, Cincinati, or Chicago, IL then consider it a Ford.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Thanks for making the story short. It could have been even shorter by omitting the discussion about the 500/Montego/FS CVT that has never been used in the Explorer/Mountaineer/Navigator.

    Actually, the issue is not at all sticky. The ZF 6-speed transmission used in the Explorer/Mountaineer/Navigator is manufactured by Ford.

    It's made under license from ZF at the Ford-owned Livonia Transmission Plant in Livonia, Michigan.

    It cannot come from the Batavia plant; it isn't tooled for the RWD 6-speed.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I understand that, but I thru in Batavia so you see the marriage of how their partnership together came to me. There's word that Batavia might manufacture the 6 speed units as well, when dropping the Escape transmission outputs. Livonia is reaching it's point of full capacity so other options are being studied.

    Did you win the bet though?
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    "There's word that Batavia might manufacture the 6 speed units as wel"

    Only the FWD version, not the RWD version. (The one we're discussing here)

    I won the bet. It was with myself. I bet that the following statement was incorrect, and its author wouldn't clarify the issue:

    "That is who builds the transmissions"

    Maybe I'm nit-picking, but I think it's important to know whether a component as significant as the transmission is built by Ford, or purchased from a supplier.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    In this case, joint collaboration wouldn't you say ? But how many would care who exactly would build the transmission ? I mean, as it is, some GM's feature chinese built engines and maybe that get an eyebrow raised for them doing so.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Whatever.......
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Thanks for the discussion. At any rate, the transmission as applied in the Navigator, is extraordinary to drive, and changes the dynamics, and personality of the whole truck in a positive way. When will this transmission be installed in the Explorer/Mountaineer?
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    Explorer/Mountaineer get it, with floor-mount shift lever, with the 292 HP 3-valve 4.6 in 2006. I have one ordered. I appreciate your comments on your experience with it.

    The 4.0 L engine still gets the 5R55.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Now for the newly redesigned models eith the upgraded 4.6L. Although the shifting algorithum will vary. At the 1-2nd shift, you might find it a bit more snappy in transition.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    It sounds like the 2006 Explorer / Mountaineer will be everything the 2002 models should have been - smoother suspension, less noise and vibration, better engine, better transmission, and nicer interior (except for the space-hog floor shifter). That seems to be the story of Detroit lately - several years late with what they need today.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I don't think there's any vehicle where they have made it louder, rougher, worse transmission, and worse engine. Every generation will improve. And if you owned the pre-2002 versions, you would have definately seen the improvements in the 2002+ generation.

    Let's take note how much praise the current Explorer received upon it's introduction. It might not be the fastest, corner the best, or be the quietest, but the secret to the Explorer's success as been it's various trim levels, all around comfort, drivability, and accessibility. It might not excel in one specific area (as most journalists have written about it), but it offers the overall package placed together.

    Anyhow as it is, more people are migrating to car-based SUV's (and I agree, since most do not need these much bulk to begin with), but the Explorer will certainly have it's loyal crowd of customers, and that in itself, has a high repeat buyer rate.... (I believe in it's segment of Mid-size truck based SUV's from the last paper that went thru my desk).

    If anything, it was the other manufacturer's who were late to the party. While the Explorer banked on it's success in the 90's, only the Grand Cherokee and Blazer were it's closest competitors. The foreign automakers didn't venture much into this segment, and if they did... usually with half-baked vehicles. Pathfinder probably it's strongest foreign competitor, and sales of it couldn't hold a candle to that of the Explorer. Now the Pathfinder is truck based, but definately late to the party since car-based SUV segment is growing.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    What is the layout of the floor shifter? i.e. which of the six speeds can be manually selected?
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    Anthony, you make good points. I wasn't quite clear - I wonder why everything on the 2006 model wasn't on the 2002 model? Perhaps Ford rushed the 2002 model because of the tire/flipping problem of the old design?

    I see that the 2006 Mountaineer media information specifically references the very low rate of off road usage of SUVs and makes reference to changes meant to make the vehicle better on-road. I bought my 2002 Mountainner to have the utility of a wagon, the safety and repairability of a full frame, the driving dynamics of a V8 with rear wheel drive, a nice interior with fancy features, and the hitch to tow the speed boat I never bought. Of course, with the rise of modern station wagons such as the Freestyle, I wonder if the 2010 Explorer / Mountaineer will be repositioned to be more off-road capable to suit their names?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The Explorer mission will still be for heavy towing and off-road excursions. The Explorer will continue into the next decade with that mission and fullfill those that require those needs.

    There's a new midsize car based SUV (internally nicknamed Edge). Think of it as a Highlander/Pilot competitor. Based off the CD3 architecture (Mazda6, Fusion, Milan, Zephyr) and be cloned after the next Lincoln Aviator and Mazda CX-7. Customers are expected to migrate into this, or the Freestyle if they believe the Explorer is too trucky for there needs.
  • lateralglateralg Member Posts: 929
    ANT14:

    Can you tell me why the Explorer 5-speed auto transmission is sometimes referred to as "adaptive"?
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