Ford Explorer Mercury Mountaineer 2005 and earlier

ANT14 · May 2005

You mean, Adaptive Transmission Control ? Has 2 main functions. Adaptive Shift Scheduling, and Adaptive Shift Quality control. Together they allow the transmission to shift according to your driving behavior. From aggresive (would give you snappier shifts, to relaxed-smoother slower shifts). It takes cornering, uphill/downhill into consideration as well. ATC recognizes road conditions and tailors itself according to various input from other driveline components to pick/shift the best gear possible at the best time possible.

Although off the record, there's a few vehicles where ATC is a bit "extreme" and somewhat annoying. Explorer and Mustang both with the 4.0L., but I won't go into that...

lateralg · May 2005

"Together they allow the transmission to shift according to your driving behavior."

Aww, Ant; I had hoped you'd do better on this one.

The above quote is believed by many, but is simply not true. The Explorer 5-speed auto transmission has no feature that recognizes or adapts to a person's driving behavior. After a few thousand miles, it will execute a given shift the same for Granny as it will for anyone else.

Where can I find more information on:
"Adaptive Transmission control"?
"Adaptive Shift scheduling'?
"Adaptive Shift Quality control"?

stever · May 2005

Interesting, the PR folks at Ford seem to agree with ANT:

"The Adaptive Transmission Control system recognizes individual styles of driving (e.g., aggressive vs. Relaxed) and adapts transmission shift parameters accordingly."

Media.Ford.com

Steve, Host

ANT14 · May 2005

The link is there and it explains it in better detail how it works, so I'm not sure what more your looking for.

As for the Explorer not having it, open the Owner's Manual, and pg.176, (if it's a 2005 manual, might differ a page or 2 on other years)... titled "Driving", first paragraph reads....

"This vehicle is equipped with adaptive Transmission Shift Strategy. Adaptive Transmission Shift Strategy offers the optimal transmission operation and shift quality...." etc.etc.

lateralg · May 2005

What's even more interesting is that the engineers who designed and calibrated the transmission are the source of my information.

Now who should we believe, the engineers who design & build the transmission, or the PR folks? Who would you bet on?

How about a survey among our readers?

A) PR folks

Engineers

lateralg · May 2005

"I'm not sure what more your looking for."

Just the facts from those who really know.

ANT14 · May 2005

Well considering it's listed on the manual, if the vehicle isn't equipped with it, wouldn't that be false advertising ?

I think if that would be the case, then a massive class action suit could stem from that. I can read the headlines now.... "Edmunds forum members discussing the Explorer transmission prompted an investigation into false claims from the manufacturer that the vehicle was equipped with technology, that wasn't really present"...

That and have a massive hysteria of forum members on here, emailing Ford over that concern. So in essense your saying Ford purposely printed information about the vehicle (and on the owner's manual, which is taken even more seriously) that includes technology that really isn't present ? And that the PR folks just through that tidbit into the manual for decoration ?

I mean, those are some pretty serious accusations.

stever · May 2005

If the manual was wrong, Ford could issue a TSB; that happens sometimes to correct misinformation in the manual.

But there are those over-reported horsepower cases where the automakers offer to buy back cars and sometimes get sued. (USA Today)

I don't know if Siemens supplies Ford, but their press site is similar to Fords:

"Siemens VDO is now able to apply flexible fuzzy logic algorithms for adapting the driving and shifting strategy of a vehicle's powertrain to the driver's style."

Siemens VDO Automotive

Bosch is somewhat similar. (pdf file). Subaru talks about changing the shift logic to "correspond with the drivers intention."

ANT's got links to back his comments up fwiw; I guess I want to talk to the software engineer. :shades:

Steve, Host

stever · May 2005

Those of us in the US are remembering Memorial Day with our long weekend and the usual weekday commentary is getting sidetracked a bit (I guess we missed Victoria Day).

Anyone who wants to talk about the Explorer or Mountaineer and not just transmission nuances, feel free to hop in with a new thread.

Steve, Host

lateralg · May 2005

Please don't twist my words. Here's what I said:

"The above quote is believed by many, but is simply not true. The Explorer 5-speed auto transmission has no feature that recognizes or adapts to a person's driving behavior. After a few thousand miles, it will execute a given shift the same for Granny as it will for anyone else."

This is based on input from the engineers who designed and calibrated the transmission.

I understand how many have been mis-led by misinformation. It's fine with me if they want to continue to believe it. If anyone cares to understand the reality of how the transmission adapts, I'll be glad to offer it up.

I respect your position Steve. I don't think this transmission discussion has provented anyone from posting on another subject. I hope you respect mine as well. I'm loyal to Ford, and get a bit riled when I read statements that I know to be incorrect. I would think that Edmunds would also be interested in the integrity of the posts on their forum.

Peace?

stever · May 2005

I'm enjoying the discourse even though the owners may be getting bored stiff (and we are pushing the edge of being on topic).

Personally, I just like to see more in the way of back up than "based on input from engineers." Not that I don't believe you, and just because it's on the net doesn't mean it's true, but I'd like to see some more in the way of back-up documentation or explanation. So feel free to offer it up, and we'll wrap it up in time to return to the usual commentary in here when the regulars and would be owners get back from holiday.

And I am a bit confused - are you ok that some transmissions do adapt for different drivers, just not the ones in the Explorer?

Steve, Host

daryll44 · May 2005

Ordering a new Explorer/Mountaineer now is one of the worst financial decisions you can make. By December they will be rebated up the wazzoo. You'll be paying THOUSANDS of dollars MORE to have one of the first ones. Not to mention the "bugs" that early vehicles of a major revision tend to incur.

lateralg · May 2005

It's very easy to obtain back up. ANT, with his insider knowledge of FOMOCO, only has to pick up the phone & call Transmission Engineering in Livonia. I look forward to his report on the call.

It does appear that some transmissions adapt for different drivers. I've been addressing the false claim that Explorer transmissions do.

Unless more misinformation appears, I'm done with this topic.

stever · May 2005

hmmm, you're the one disputing the claim. Contrary evidence has been raised. The ball's back in your court to put your position forward - you can't expect others to do that work for you.

Steve, Host

fsmmcsi · May 2005

Maybe lateralg is not differentiating between the transmission itself and the transmission controls. The mechanical box does not have any ability to adjust, but the software in the control computer apparently does.

lateralg · May 2005

"but the software in the control computer apparently does."

The software does adjust, but NOT to the driver. It leaves the plant with optimal shift duration data stored in memory. As the computer experiences shifts, it compares the actual duration of the shift with optimum. It adjusts engagement and release timing and pressures to bring the shift duration closer to optimum. This can take several occurrences of a given shift before optimum timing is achieved. Note that a "given shift" is much more than a 1-2 shift. It's a 1-2 shift at various throttle openings and RPM. Same is true for the 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-4,4-3,3-2,2-1, N-D, R-D shifts.

A big reason for this strategy is that the transmission automatically adjusts for clutch and band wear as the vehicle ages.

Please do not attempt to twist the above into any resemblance of adapting to DRIVER habits. It simply does not!

Steve, the only way I know to do what you propose is to post the name and number of an engineer at Transmission Engineering in Livonia. That isn't appropriate.

If ANT14 has the inside track that's implied in his posts, then he can get the correct information with no more than 3 phone calls.

ANT14 · May 2005

"Steve, the only way I know to do what you propose is to post the name and number of an engineer at Transmission Engineering in Livonia. That isn't appropriate."

Considering Ford monitors these boards (and I know that as a fact). I wouldn't recommend posting such information. Fords legal representatives will get the information, issue a "John Doe" search and discovery towards Edmunds to release the IP of the person posting the claim, then file another search and discovery towards the IP provider, track down the informants stating such claims, and they can actually lose their jobs and face legal recourse for stating such claim which otherwise they wouldn't be able to release because it's considered insider espionage.

Specially considering it's information that can be detrimental over an issue in technnology Ford has claimed for many years to have offered, has included information over it to the media and boasted over it, mention it in the owner's manual, etc.... which could lead to private lawsuits on the side of Explorer owners. And all this because one or 2 engineers conclude otherwise.

So it's best to let the issue rest at this point without opening Pandora's Box....

stever · May 2005

This seems to be getting bogged down a bit in semantics. The transmission won't shift period without a driver putting the Explorer in gear and driving off. I suppose you could link to the applicable patents, but those things are too dense to figure out anyway.

Ok, if I take my tranny in for a reflash, the optimal shift duration data will get changed and the tranny will take a while to adjust. If I disconnect the battery to cause the tranny to relearn, aggressive or mild driving will just affect the time it takes for the tranny to figure out the optimal shift duration, based on throttle and rpm stuff. Or am I putting words in your mouth?

I think we're about done here...

Steve, Host

lateralg · May 2005

Nope.

You nailed it, Steve.

daryll44 · May 2005

Today I was riding as a front passenger in our 2003 Mountaineer. I noticed about ankle level there is a groove in the plastic kick panel that says "Fuel Reset" or something like that. What the heck is it?

chuck1 · May 2005

I believe that is the reset for a sensor that turns the fuel off from the gas tank in the event of a accident or rollover. I have heard cases where it "trips" if you go over a "washboard dirt road".

lateralg · May 2005

What Chuck said.

Although I haven't heard of rough road tripping.

electricdesign · May 2005

Neither have I.

nvbanker · June 2005

Theoretically, I have heard of it, but I've never heard of it actually happening to anybody. I've only seen one trip after a collision or rollover

electricdesign · June 2005

The fuel reset is on the fuel shut off switch, it is an interia switch that activates on impact or roll over, very much like an airbag sensor. Vibration should never set it off.

kc_flynn · June 2005

We just cracked the 10,000 mile mark on our 2004 Explorer XLS Sport 4x4. We've had it since September. Both my wife and I are HUGE fans of the Explorer. Roomy, nice ride, good power, easy to access dashboard buttons and controls.

After driving Hondas and Toyotas, this was our first Ford, and we have been very impressed.

electricdesign · June 2005

KC, LOVE your post! My wife and I feel the same way, we LOVE our Explorers!
1997 Ford Explorer XLT 137,000 miles
2000 Ford Explorer XLT 101,000 miles

nvbanker · June 2005

Said it before, will repeat it again - IMO, the Explorer has been, and continues to be the best SUV in its class all around. Others may specialize and excel in those specialties, but Explorer does everything quite well for a good value. And I've had great performance from all of mine. A 94, 97, 98, 02, & 04. I recently helped my neighbor buy a 4Runner. I test drove it. Sadly, I wouldn't trade it for my Mountaineer. It's way too trucky, too hard to steer, the floor is too high, you can't see over the hood, the controls are very hard to understand, and it's expensive. :confuse:

fsmmcsi · June 2005

Nvbanker - the 4Runner also lacks many of the interior lights on switches and so forth which the Explorer and other Ford vehicles have. The 4Runner is quiet, but expensive, and the solid rear axle is primitive and rough-riding. The 2006 Explorer will be even further ahead of the Toyota / Lexus products.

Toyota is vulnerable due to their cheapness - the solid axle is cheaper than an independent rear suspension. If Ford would step up and use the same tool which has helped Hyundai - a 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty, I think they could easily take customers away from Toyota and Honda in segments such as SUVs where they have good products.

For those who are interested in my attempt to sell my '02 Mountaineer, an update: I have had one low baller who thought my '02 Mountaineer would only be worth $8,000 to $9,000, and one caller who offered $10,000 sight unseen, but wanted to pay with a check. Other than that, just three or four callers who saw the signs on it when we were driving and who were disinterested after finding out it has 93,000 one-owner high way miles. I will give it time, but if it does not sell, try to go to a swap meet, or just keep it several more years and use it to drive to demolition sites and other places where the minivan might be too low.

daryll44 · June 2005

That will never happen. Can you imagine Ford having to repair for free all the stuff that happens to their vehicles after 36,000 miles. They'd be broke in a year (or at least a year sooner than they are already going broke). I own a 2003 Mountaineer and LOVE the vehicle. So I am not a Ford basher per se. But let's be real folks, the initial quality may have improved slightly, but Fords are no competition for Toyota and Honda, who are eating it's lunch. And as for long term durability, most Fords disintegrate between 75,000 miles and 100,000 miles...or will cost the owner two arms and two legs to keep going beyond that. Sure, you'll post exceptions but in the real world most Hondas and Toyotas go 150,000 to 200,000 miles without too much hassle while Fords, in general, only go half as far with no hassle.

chuck1 · June 2005

As an owner of a '02 Explorer--As much as I hate to, I have to agree with you. My '02 has been a pretty good vehicle. But the transmission solenoid has been replaced, the power window motor replaced, various squeaks and rattles, (some fixed-some not "found") the leather is terrible. And I have a axle whine that the dealer says "he has heard much worse" between 55mph and 65mph. This made it necessary for me to purchase the 75,000 miles "Basic Care Ford Warranty". I have told all who are considering a purchase of one of these vehicles to at least get the "extended power train warranty" that will cover the rear end. Of course, there is no-way I am going to keep this car past the 75,000 mile warranty. You would have to be crazy to! Why do American car makers settle for mediocrity?

daryll44 · June 2005

The question is why do WE CONSUMERS settle? And the answer is that more and more we are not. Why do you think GM and FORD are teetering on the edge while Toyota and Honda have record profits? Again, I own a Ford and felt that the DESIGN of the current bodystyle Explorer/Mountaineer was superior than anything around. And at 36000 miles I have to admit that this Mountaineer has not had the defects that we saw in our old 1999 Explorer. But if it does fall apart after the warranty (just went over 36K), I'll buy a Honda Pilot next time as the design is very close. GM and FORD (and DCX although diluted since Daimler bot it) don't have the corporate culture to fix the problems it seems. And it's a downward spiral as losses mount, there is less and less money for development and quality improvement, thus leading to yet more sales losses. I hope for the sake of the American economy that things turn around, but it looks grim for both Ford and GM. Meantime, keep on truckin!

explorerx4 · June 2005

what kind of maintenance schedule do you use? my fords are pretty good if you keep up with it.i have to agree with you that the explorer/mounty is just a terrific design. i have an '02 explorer with 44k on it. still original tires and brakes, axle hum at 50-52 mph. if you have a good vehicle, quit hoping it's going to fail!

electricdesign · June 2005

Wow! I can't believe my eyes!

"And as for long term durability, most Fords disintegrate between 75,000 miles and 100,000 miles..."

I am sorry to say that I sorely disagree with you guys. I've never had a Ford "Disinigrate". Every Ford Explorer that I have bought has had over 100,000 miles or almost 100,000 miles on them, and they were and are excellent vehicles. I also drive the vehicles hard, with a heavy foot, so they have to be strong.

1991 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer 4.0L V6 - Great vehicle - the only problem was weak auto transmission. Bought at 100,000 miles, Sold at 160,000 miles

1993 Ford Explorer XLT 4.0L V6- Great vehicle - the only problem was weak auto transmission. Bought at 112,000 miles, Totaled at 176,000 miles.

1997 Ford Explorer XLT 5.0L V8 - Great vehicle - No problems. Bought at 98,000 miles 2/2002, drives great, will continue to drive it until 2006.

2000 Ford Explorer XLT 5.0L V8 - Great vehicle - No problems. Bought at 99,000 miles 3/2005, drives great, will continue to drive it until 2011.

These are superb vehicles, but the trick is you have to do lots of intense research to understand the pro and cons of each vehicle, I shop for what I need and what is the most reliable vehicle with the most reliable powertrain. It is mostly a matter of researching for what NOT to buy. Also, I am not like most of you guys, as I am a little out of place here, being a mechanic and I do my own work. Most of you have to deal with the hassle of having to argue with the dealer to get your cars fixed. I can't waste my time arguing with anybody or waiting on anybody. If my car has a problem, a squeak, a knock, a thump, or whatever, I just fix it and it is done, no hassle. If you buy the RIGHT vehicle, you don't have to repair the major items like engines and transmissions. I use only the best synthetic lubricants, and perform and keep all maintenance up to date. Preventive maintenance is your best defense against unwanted breakdowns and repairs. I'm not scared of a 100,000 mile car, if fact, that is what I prefer. But I can understand your fear of the unknown, you are thinking, Will this thing get me to where I want to go? Or will this thing cost me an arm and a leg down the road? I believe the answer is that a well researched and well maintained vehicle will get you where you want to go and NOT cost you an arm and a leg down the road. But it helps a lot if you can do you own work, at least the light stuff anyway, like spark plugs, batteries, alternators, starters, brakes and general service. Leave the A/C and engine diagnosis to the Pros. I keep my eye on all the new developments, I hear of problems with the sprockets going bad on the V8's with the variable valve timing, at least I read that on the F150 site. Who knows, maybe my next car will be a hybrid! It just depends on what my needs are and what is the best thing out there the next time I'm ready to buy, but I've got a long time to do that research.
E.D.

chuck1 · June 2005

"And as for long term durability, most Fords disintegrate between 75,000 miles and 100,000 miles..."

Hey Daryl,
You know you could very well be correct. Maybe they won't fall apart long term. But Ford continues to do "cost cutting" and some of the initial and widespread problem(s) (the rear-ends for example) don't bode well for having long-term confidence in this vehicle. I really like my '02. However, I have doubts with long-term realiabiltiy! Don't forget, all of the vehicles you have listed above are a different "animal" from the redesign '02 on up. I have not had any trouble (41K miles) with the SOHC V6, but man that motor is LOUD and CRUDE!

daryll44 · June 2005

is age in months/years. A vehicle that is driven 100,000 miles in 3 years will probably be in better shape than a vehicle driven 100,000 over 10 years. Certain parts deteriorate as a function of use (shocks, for instance) and other parts deteroriate primarily as a function of time (seals and battery for instance). I think for purposes of discussion, however, normally we are referring to vehicles that are driven the "normal" 10,000 to 15,000 miles per year.

mercjack05 · June 2005

Just lost the second rear window in my new mountaineer (3400 mi) while parked over night in a fenced parking lot. Any one else having problems with the lift gate window shattering for no appearent reason. My only guess is the temperature change (50 at night and 90 during the day). I have heard of this before but twice in the last two months is unreal. So far the insurance co and the dealer have been of no help. I have no reason to suspect vandleism

lateralg · June 2005

Tempered glass is intolerant of even tiny nicks in the edges, as well as moderate impacts by very sharp, small objects. When you get this one replaced, carefully inspect all the edges & the mounts. I suspect damage during installation of the second one.

fsmmcsi · June 2005

My 2002 Mountaineer came from the factory with three defects - a pinched fuel tank vent hose, a mark in the paint, and a rear differential which had been improperly assembled (it was singing loundly after just a few thousand miles). All were corrected promptly, and all would have been covered under any warranty. Since then, one small $25 idler pully on the front of the engine was replaced at 90-some thousand miles. That is it. It is radically more reliable than the 1996 Chevrolet Impala SS it replaced, and is significantly better than the 1994 Thunderbird we had.

chuck1 · June 2005

My 2002 Mountaineer came from the factory with three defects - a pinched fuel tank vent hose, a mark in the paint, and a rear differential which had been improperly assembled (it was singing loundly after just a few thousand miles).

It's really amazing what we as owners settle for. We all know about the rear differential. I don't think the other two items should have ever gotten past the"QC" at the point of assembly! Just my thoughts......

lateralg · June 2005

Three?

Out of how many thousands of parts, and thousands of connections? In addition to component complexity ... radios with more computer power than Apollo space ships.

And trying to test each combination in each of thousands of modes of operation in the field.

I wish my personal failure rate was that low.

daryll44 · June 2005

You are missing the point. The point is that the Japanese, by and large, have (near) ZERO.

And INITIAL quality isn't really the big issue under discussion here. Three defects, five defects, zero defects...it doesn't matter really because they get fixed under warranty. The REAL issue is what happens AFTER the warranty period. In other words, will Explorer have good LONG TERM DURABILITY without unreasonable repairs? And how does that LONG TERM DURABILITY stack up to the Japanese competition?

lateralg · June 2005

YOU madeTHE point VERY easy TO miss WITH your STATEMENT:

"My 2002 Mountaineer came from the factory with three defects - a pinched fuel tank vent hose, a mark in the paint, and a rear differential which had been improperly assembled (it was singing loundly after just a few thousand miles).

It's really amazing what we as owners settle for. We all know about the rear differential. I don't think the other two items should have ever gotten past the"QC" at the point of assembly! Just my..."

Do YOU have ANSWERS to THE questions YOU raised?

chuck1 · June 2005

Here is the point in my thinking. It is inexcusable to release a new vehicle with a bad rear-end. Period! Car makers have been manufacturing cars for over 100 years. After one hundred years-you should be able to buy a first-year vehicle and not get a bad rear end. Before someone calls me a "Ford Basher"-I'll list below the Ford vehicles I have owned:

96 Contour
96 Mercury Mystique
'98 Contours (2)
95 Mercury Sable
94(?) Tempo
'02 Explorer (Currently)
'05 Taurus (Not "owned" but company provided vehicle)
Take the Contours and Mystique listed above. The Duratec V6 in these vehicles that was an option (I heard co-developed by Porsche) was nothing short of a remarkable piece of technology. However, to save on weight they used a water pump with a plastic impeller. It would break at 50K like clockwork. This is also inexcusable! Let's call it like it is and not make excuses for all the automakers!!

daryll44 · June 2005

My mom had a '98 Mystique...she eventually dubbed it "Mercury Mistake". It was recalled about 10 times in the 25,000 miles over 4 years or so that she had it. Mom was a 65 year old "I'll never buy a foreign car" person. Until that "Mystake"...after years and years of Ford and Chrysler products. Finally she broke down and "went foreign". Since 2002 she's had a 4 cylinder Camry and swears she'll never drive anything but Toyota again. Not one defect, no hassle, no fuss, no muss. Ford lost a life customer.

I see the new Ford Fusion is supposed to be the wondercar of the future. Seems to me that the Contour/Mystique was supposed to be that 10 years ago and the Tempo/Topaz before that. In other words, you can fool me once, shame on me....

fsmmcsi · June 2005

Unless the rear end is singing from the factory, how are they to know it is bad? It took several thousand miles for the problem to show up, and it was probably an assembly defect. It was fixed promptly, so it certainly did not bother me. If anything, all of the evidence above suggests that Ford has improved dramatically.

I just do not buy the Toyota reliability myth. Why do they and others sell so many parts for Toyotas if they never fail? Why have they had their share of recalls?

I just discovered an outright design defect in my new Sienna. My back (shoulders / neck) have really been bothering me since I got it 4,500 miles and 45 days ago. It is definitely the car, not me. I thought the seat was junk, but thanks to another Edmunds user, I just discovered that the steering column is slanted to one side (closer to the front of the car on the left). It is a big enough angle that it amounts to several inches at the seat. I was planning to have the seat re-stuffed and the hot to sit on solid leather replaced with perforated leather (as on the Mountaineer) or cloth, but now I may sell the thing. It has the smoothness the 2002 Mountaineer lacks (and which the 2006 Mountaineer apparently will have), and is quiet and very handy for my needs, but I may not be able to keep it. It also gets only slightly better mileage than teh Mountaineer, even though it is rated much higher.

If I sell it, I will certainly re-consider the 2006 Mountaineer, 2007 Explorer SportTrac, and other Ford products.

tidester · June 2005

Why do they and others sell so many parts for Toyotas if they never fail?

Because they wear out? Was that a trick question?

tidester, host

daryll44 · June 2005

Your story is unfortunately. But there are 10 times as many folks going in the OTHER direction as you...and I don't mean in reference to driving up the street.

lateralg · June 2005

If you expect to have any credibility here, try to be more factual.

10 times as many??

In God we trust; all others bring data.

daryll44 · June 2005

is OVERWHELMING going AWAY from Ford and GM and toward Toyota, Honda and now Hyundai. OK, so maybe it's not 10 to 1 (although it's possible that the bleeding IS that bad), you get my point but are nitpicking because you don't like it. In the end, the marketplace has clearly recognized that those imports are doing a much better job delivering quality, durability, design and economy.

Ford Explorer Mercury Mountaineer 2005 and earlier

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