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As for brakes, THIS IS PITTSBURGH! Allegheny mountains. No one in history of driving, ever, ever got 60K out of front pads here...did I say EVER...let alone 100K out of ANY brake pad. You just don't understand!
Mark.
Personally, Miss Cleo had the same method of reporting peoples futures.
Some things off the top of my head I've seen people on these forums mention... CR's pick of the Honda Oddyssey for best minivan has had a total of 13 recalls. The Ridgeline also received a great reliability prediction, yet quite many media outlets (including Edmunds) have experienced many quality issues with them (In Edmunds case, 4 shot shocks in really a major issue-but how quick Edmund was to forgive them). The Civic which was just released 3 months ago has already had 2 recalls, yet CR vaulted them to BestPick while numerous other American vehicles that have been released for over a year, received a "poor" predicted reliability that in other surveys, rated tops in their segment.
JDPower uses a wider sampling of information, and not just from consumers who need to be "members" to be inducted into their exclusive group of participants, instead, it goes to just about anyone, while some of the information is taken straight off manufacturer's databases. So in retrospect, it touches more bases and uses actual data, not "predicted reliability".
On my '02 Explorer--in 2 1/2 years and 45,000 miles later, I had the following issues:
tranmission solenoid bad
power window motor failed
rear-end would whine at between 55mph and 65mph. FORD WOULDN'T FIX IT.
Leather seating very poor quality - if I would have kept the car I would have had to redo the leather. Ford again, knows there was a problem here and wouldn't satisfy the owners.
Bought a Toyota. Farewell Ford!!
As a Mountaineer, F150 and Tacoma owner, I can say that Foreign over domestic (are they actually) does not play in as much as what do I need the vehicle to do. I really don't think the quality of ther big 3 comes close to the Toyota and Honda makes, but they offer what I need. Now, if you compare the quality of Hyundai against Mercury, you will find american cars a worthy competitor. I would rather be pushing a used Mercury than drive a used Hyundai. Chances are I will be pushing both anyway. Atleast I will get help with the Merc. Just get "I told you so" with the Hyundai.
It seems Hyundai likes to tout their 100,000 mile warranty, but they do not like to pay out when something goes awry. I have known at least three people that had something go wrong at 60K or 70K miles, and Hyundai tells them the car hasn't been maintained. AT least one was the transmission. So, after going down to the Speedy-lube and requesting copies of all the paperwork, Hyundai coughed up a new transmission. Of course it took them three weeks to get the parts from Korea....
Anyway I am doing the break in with the customer and as I tried to demonstrate how to turn on the Fog Lights, standard in the XLT, I discovered that the WRONG HEAD LAMP switch was installed at the factory. The truck had an XLS head lamp switch with no Fog Light provision.
How did this happen? I'm sure part of the cause was for 2006, Ford decided to make Autolamp, previously standard on the XLT optional. As such, there are 3 possible head lamp switches for an Explorer. No Fog Lights or Auto lamp, Fog lights No Autolamp and both fog lights and auto lamp.
How is it efficient to have 3 freaking headlamp switches?
Fords have such a Myrid of different optional combinations that its a wonder any customer EVER gets a vehcile with the equipment that they want.
Mark.
FORD has a better idea
Glad you got yours fixed. However, be aware that some owners have had this done only to have the problem return later.....
You are dead on. My friend's wife was driving her pretty Hyundai with about 14K on the odometer down to the dealer because it was having a funny noise from the frontend. She stopped at the stoplight infront of the dealership. When she released the brake and started to pull away, the engine actually fell to the ground. Guess that was the cause of the noise. Anyway, before she could walk the 100 yards to the dealership, they were rounding the corner with their towtruck. Wisked the car off the street and offered her full credit toward any vehicle on their lots no questions asked. Smartly she took one from the Jeep lot. That smells of a well known problem by their company.
Thanx....Bill
The new fix didn't actually come available until fall of '05. I do believe they replaced the Compressor Clutch and set the Clutch Gap to a different setting in addition to the new Pulley. This pulley was different than the ones before fall of 2005. I have not had any issues with mine since it was fixed.
Before that fix I would ask every other person driving an Explorer/Mountaineer with the V-8 if they were experiencing this problem. Not one had, so I guess it was very isolated incidents.
Having said that I like to think I've gotten a little more sophisticated. I tend to buy newer used vehicles so I check with the NHTSA for Recalls, Technical Service Bulletins, Defect Investigations and Consumer Complaints. I haven't made a scientific study of how well that info tracks with Consumer Reports reliability data but my sense is that they tend to be fairly consistent with each other.
I also check chat sites like this to see what people in the real world have to say about any problems they have.
I do agree with one other poster that the reliability data CR gets depends upon what their average member drives but I don't know that more CR members buy foreign than domestic vehicles. Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that more of them buy foreign that doesn't mean the data is statistically invalid unless you further assume that blind loyalty compels them to under-report problems. In my experience anyone who has been inconvenienced &/or hit in the pocketbook by an unreliable vehicle is probably going to vent their grievance, given the opportunity.
Currently I am in the market for a newer used SUV. I have been pretty happy with my 1997 Subaru Outback (Imprezza) Sport so I had been looking for a 2005 Subaru Outback (Legacy). One with average miles and about 1 1/2 to 2 years left on the warranty is going for about $19,000 to $20,000. A discounted "Gold Plus" extended Mfr warranty, 7 years / 100K, $0.00 Deductible would cost me about $1,400.00. Consumer Reports gives Subaru a better than average rating for the OB / Legacy overall but the 2005 is only about average. As much as I liked the OB Sport the extended warranty did get a workout so I want the warranty this time for the peace of mind.
But since I was hoping to do better on price I started looking at some domestic alternatives including the 2005 Ford Explorer which CR rates as worse than average on reliability. Since I could save about $2000 to $3,000 buying a 2005 Explorer with 18 months, but only 6,688 miles left on the original Mfrs warranty I would definitely need the extended warranty. However, the MSRP on a comparable Ford warranty is about $800. Worse yet, the difference between the best discounted price on a Subaru warranty and the ford warranty is about $1,300.
So the real difference in cost between the Outback and the Explorer is about $700 to $2,300 but that difference could get eaten up by repairs pretty quickly after the extended warranty runs.
So, I have come to believe that what a Mfr charges for their extended warranties is a pretty good indicator of the faith they have in their product and probably a fair predictor of reliability.
As additional examples here is a rough idea of what Toyota and GMC warranties cost at MSRP and after a decent discount. Note, both of these warranties are the highest level of coverage I could find for the Mfr in question and are for 7 year / 100K, $0.00 Ded.
Toyota MSRP: $2,400; discount price: $ 900
GMC/Chevy MSRP $3,300; discount price: $2,800 (appx'ly)
Interestingly, in my limited experience, if you shop aggressively you can save about 40% on a foreign Mfr warranty but only about 15% on a domestic Mfr warranty. I don't think that is any sort of predictor of reliablity though.
Anyways, these are just my observations; for what they are worth.
~Cath
Anyway, I don't know how you can compare an Outback against an Explorer. The Explorer is a true SUV, with optional seating for seven. And while I haven't looked up the numbers, I would venture to say the Explorer probably has more interior room and towing capacity (if you opt. for the V8) than the Subaru.
In addition, I really don't agree with your assessment of the cost of warrantys. It is the dealers (unfortunately) that sets the ultimate sales price of the warranty, not the manufacturer.
it is a breath of fresh air.
Thanks for the kind words. I'll "correct" two typos of mine here --regarding the Ford and Toyota warranties-- before anyone points them out. The Ford warranty MSRP is $800.00 more than the Subaru warranty MSRP (I omitted the word "more"). The Toyota MSRP is about $1,400 (not $2,400). Sorry for any confusion.
Chuck1 and Mtnman1,
Regarding the differences between the Subaru Outback and the Explorer, for a more accurate frame of reference I did price a Taurus warranty at www.fordesp.com (where I got the $3,300 warranty MSRP on the Explorer). I put in comparable vehicle info (Year & Mileage) for a comparable warranty (highest / longest level of coverage, $0.00 Ded) for a Taurus (without AWD or 4WD). The price I came up with is $3760. (?!?!?!?!) I believe that price is inflated since it is higher than the price I got just yesterday for the Explorer on that site, using the same warranty and vehicle parameters. I have no idea how or why that happened. It must be some sort of marketing thing.
However, they are running a 10% - 25% "promotion" which at best (25% off) would translate to $2,820. This would still be about $300 more than the Subaru MSRP on a comparable Outback warranty. And of course the Subaru has AWD, which would increase the cost of potential repairs, all other factors being equal.
Obviously this isn't a scientific survey but it reinforces my impression that domestic warranty prices are more expensive than Japanese warranties (again, for comparable vehicles). To to the observation about dealers setting the final cost, that may be corect to an extent. The real indicator of reliability would be the wholesale price the Manufacturer charges the dealer, which is probably the amount that would cover the Manufacturer's risk of repair (plus the Manufacturer's profit, if any). Nevertheless, I maintain that as with any kind of insurance, the price is a pretty good reflection of the actuaries' assessment of the risk of repair. Otherwise the prices would be arbitrary and unrealistic and if market forces didn't correct that then no one would by them.
I should note that my husband's gripe with Consumer Reports is that they do not tend to report the cost of repairs. His impression is that American cars may need repairs more often but those repairs tend to be less expensive. The big weakness in any almost any reliablity data (not just CRs) has more to do with the severity of potential problems, than the likelihood.
As an example, my sister recently got a great price on a used Lexus RX300. The CR reliability data is excellent but knowing how expensive they are to fix I went to the NHTSA Technical Service Bulletins and to Edmunds Forums and found what is essentially a voluntary recall and warranty extension for oil sludge problems. I went back to CR online and found a separate article on that repair issue for a variety of foreign and domestic manufacturers. Needless to say I helped her find a good price on a Lexus backed used car warranty.
Interestingly, I had never heard about oil sludge problems in any vehicles before. And no one else I have spoken to since had heard of the problem before. I specifically had to research this particular vehicle to find the issue. So I'm not sure it reflects poorly on CR that that uncommon but serious issues aren't highlighted in their reliability data.
However, knowing that a lot of used car buyers only look at the Annual Auto issue I would feel better if they could find an efficient way to spotlight infrequent, but potentially catastrophic failures, perhaps in sidebar articles in those issues so that people can weigh the likelihood of potential problems against the severity. Maybe that's impractical, since I would imagine there are a lot of infrequent but potentially catastrophic repairs.
For what it's worth, in my opinion CR, is as unbiased as it can be but it has its limitations and car buyers would be wise to look to the NHTSA and sites like this for supplemental information. If I’m not mistaken, this is consistent with CR recommendations on researching major purchases.
~Cath
I like to check out JD Power too, and I think their sampling methodology is better than CR's. We report their Power Circle ratings here for many makes/models.
Lots of good resources out there. Oh, this was an interesting safety score link Varmint posted last week: Informed For Life (via Straightline Blog)
Steve, Host
I know that CR gets its reliability data from its members, a method that has obvious limitations but no obvious actual reliability bias that I'm aware of. What methodology does JD Powers use and do they rate the reliability of used vehicles? I'm familiar with the JD Power's term "initial quality" used in new car advertising but it never occurred to me they might have used car data.
Do they buy the new vehicles themselves, as CR does?
I like the NHTSA info when making a used car purchase so I I can bring any potentially expensive issues to the attention of the mechanic doing the pre-purchase inspection. Even if I have another Subaru dealer doing the inspection I wouldn't assume they are going to be familiar with all of the Recalls, TSBs, or certainly consumer complaints that haven't resulted in a Recall or TSB.
"Straightline" link but it doesn't seem to take me to any safety score info, Varmint or otherwise.
~Cath
You need to click on one of the links near the top of Varmint's page. It's a link to a .pdf file which requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader in order to view it. If your browser isn't set up to handle those files you may need to install the reader (Varmint provides a link on his page!)
tidester, host
Other likes and dislikes: I love the seats, the ride, the QUIETNESS; I HATE the inside door pull handles (moronic design..be CAREFULL ! You will be dinging OTHER people's doors as the heavy door gets out of your grasp and slams the car next to you !!), and I HATE the GLARE off of the tacky chrome rims around the speedo and tack (I finally resorted to putting strips of black electrical tape on them to reduce the windshield glare). Troubles so far (which are typical Ford quality issues): 1) defective turn signal switch (just like my 2000 Ranger !!!!), replaced under warranty; 2) faulty blower motor switch (replaced); 3) LR tire out of round (Michelin, replaced); 4) exhaust hanger bracket broke off (replaced); 5) left rear passenger door not aligned (wow...I thought this type of stuff was supposed to be OVER). They cannot seem to get it to latch properly. ???? And, 6) the driver's side running light will not last. I suspect a wiring harnesss short someplace. The "Blue Dumbell Dealer" is still trying to fix it. DO NOT believe the hype about "IMPROVED FUEL ECONOMY". Over what, an M 1 Abrahms tank ??
But, so far, so good. I hope a year from now I don't wish I would have bought a 4 Runner or a Pilot. Wish me luck. I have a feeling I'm gonna need it.
Here's another link to the safety page that I learned about from Varmint.
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
hoganj55, "Ford Explorer: Problems & Solutions" #4895, 16 Mar 2006 5:28 pm
Please continue over there.
For anyone wanting to discuss buying a new or used Explorer, please check out the Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer: Prices Paid & Buying Experience discussion.
Steve, Host