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Just Brakes left us Just Broke-over $2000!
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in General
My wife recently went to Atlanta for a conference. She called me upon arrival, saying that there was a noise coming from a front wheel. I responded that I couldn't help her, (we live in NC) she should get the car serviced. She went to a local Just Brakes shop because it was nearby. You may recall their advertising - $129.88 for a four wheel reline. Let me preface this by telling you that we had the brakes inspected on our car at the local dealer 23,000 miles ago at a cost of $35 and they found nothing wrong; and I think we can agree that no dealer is going to understate the need for car repair, especially when the vehicle is already sitting in their bay. Just Brakes personnel told my wife that the entire system required replacement at a cost of over $1200! She tried to call me but failed, so she authorized the work. Now, I could believe that some of the brake system components would require replacement, but everything? Master cylinder, wheel cylinders, rotors, calipers, drums, springs, shoe and pads (recommended upgrade on these, of course), shims, hardware, etc. etc. How'd she get it out of the driveway, much less to Atlanta? Unfortunately, my wife also mentioned that our car needed a steering rack; the dealer diagnosed the problem but hadn't yet done the work because they didn't have the part. Just Brakes personnel told her they could do it, and she authorized the work, but what they didn't tell her was that they couldn't do the required wheel alignment until she came by to pick up the car. She was on a tight schedule and had to drive back immediately to NC with the car out of alignment. She ensured that the Just Brakes personnel knew her schedule before they did any work. The total bill was over $2000; don't tell me these guys didn't take advantage when they saw a woman coming!
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Brake calipers RARELY go bad yet some of the chains feel compelled to replace these every time!
One of the well known muffler chains seems to think that every car needs to have it's struts replaced too.
So I follow him to the shop, and we grab a bite to eat. As we are driving back to the data center he gets paged, and they want to replace all four calipers, e-brake cables pads, but only turn the rotors. (hmmm, I guess they can charge more labor for that).
Something about all calipers are sticking, e-brake cables sticking (actually that was probably true, and Automatic, never used the e-brake)
He still has them do some of the work. I guess he didn't feel comfortable doing it himself.
I guess I've been "lucky", I've never needed to replace a caliper in my life. Maybe some wheel cylinders. I wonder how many sticking calipers really just need the right lube on the contact points and new mounting hardware so it can "float" correctly on the pins?
I have better things to do with $500-$1K than make the muffler-man's boat payment.
TB
Somebody needs to get a test car, have all the brakes rebuilt by a reputable shop, have it all videotaped and certified in writing, and stamp all the new parts, and then go in to one of these shops for a brake job. Get the full catastrophe treatment, pay the full bogus bill, and then wave the video tape in the shop foreman's face on your way to the DAs office. Oh, momma!
Lots of luck getting most drivers to remember to lubricate their slide pins!
This happended to me once when I was having struts put on, I marked my old struts and when I went to see the van after the work was done I
Looked for my magic marker mark and there it was, which just told me that they did nothing for my struts. So then off to the Manager to show him that his techs did not replace anything on my van and I can prove it to him. So I took him over to the van and showed him my markings that I left on a peice that was suppose to be replaced with a new one. Well after seeing this..... The Manager was furious. There was no chage at all for the service and it would be taken car of immediatly.
Just what I do, thought it was interesting.
One of my top mechanics decided to be a nice guy and spent his day off, a Sunday, totally rebuilding the front suspension of his cousin's Chevy Impala. He replaced the lower ball joints, control arm bushings, idler arm, etc.
Of course, a wheel alignment was required after the work was done. Since we were closed in those days on Sundays they drove the Chevy to a well known (at the time) chain store that sold tires and did brakes and alignments.
They were told the job would take a half hour so they walked to a restaurant next door to grab a bite.
Upon their return, they went to pay the bill but were told the alignment had not been done!
" Impossible to align without repairs" was written on the work order. So, Sam asked what was needed...a list was produced, listing lower ball joints, idler arm, upper control arm bushings,etc...I'm not kidding!
So, Sam the mechanic asked if these worn parts could be pointed out. They raised the Chevy on a rack and actually tried to tell them that the brand new parts that had less than five miles on them were worn out. A manager was called over and Sam proceeded to point out the new parts and read him the riot act.
Using every obsenity in the book, they were thrown out.
About a year later, this chain was singled out for exactly these tactics. They are now out of business.
If people only had their brakes inspected and cleaned say once a year, they'd never have problems until parts are worn out. You can buy a caliper rebuild kit for a few bucks. Replace the seals, remove and lubricate the pins/sliders, clean up the cylinder and piston, reassemble. If you replace the brake hoses, put in new pads, turn or replace the rotors, repack the bearings and flush the system, the brakes will be like new for a couple hundred bucks.
I'm always stunned when I hear of folks paying $1000 or more for a $250 job. How will they ever trust another mechanic after they realise they've been ripped off so badly?
Not to stick up for Just Brakes or anything but 23,000 miles is a long time. When I have my brakes inspected I am told how much wear there is on the pads (25%, 75%, etc.). What does "nothing wrong" mean??? It doesn't really tell you anything other than the fact that they didn't need replacing right then. In fact isn't 20-25,000 miles about right for at least a set of pads? And if you drive past the pads you can cause all kinds of damage. I am not a mechanic but I have been around awhile. Any mechanics out there??
I use Morse Cop Car brake pads. They last forever. It is a blend of copper and carbon in the pad. Gives great stopping power with minimal fade under heavy/hard braking. I have used Raybestos Nascar Gold before, work good, but heavy brake dust tends to be a problem, and they don't last as long as I expected for the money. Stay away from the $10 pads, I typically spend $30-$45 on a good set.
In either event have them checked annually, I do it myself when I have the tires rotated at the tire shop.
About the calipers;
Brake calipers RARELY go bad yet some of the chains feel compelled to replace these every time! and Sticking calipers is an incredibly RARE phenomenon.....this is such hogwash....if the calipers were sticking, the brakes would be smoking on the way to the repair shop. What a bunch of nonsense.
In response to that, in my area,calipers sticking or siezing are actually fairly common, especially on older vehicles. The newer vehicles for some reason tend to not have as many problems.
Front pads should last around 25,000-30,000 miles while rear shoes should almost double that.
I have a S-10 blazer that had 60,000 miles before it needed front pads,a new Lumina that needed pads at 40,000 miles, I replaced the calipers because the RH caliper was sticking and had warped the rotor.
I am not condoning any of the chain shops and their tactics, but there are some reputable shops who do the repair right and to say that calipers RARELY stick is leading people to believe that they are getting ripped off if a shop recommends that they replace them.
If I recommend a part be replaced as part of the repair and the owner declines to replace it, I advise them tat they are best to take their vehicle somewhere else because I won't warranty the work.
I do agree about calipers sticking however. It seems to be a pretty rare occurance.
One of the chains around here insist on replacing calipers, wheel cylinders and all brake hardware with every brake job. I think thats a waste of money in most cases.
I am pretty sure this is at least 50% hogwash. There is no way that every 20K miles I need new calipers.
One thing I have noticed and maybe a brake expert can tell me. When my brakes get close to needing replacement. At first I start to hear that impending metal on metal sound which the brake shops claim they can't hear and tell me my brakes are fine. Then within a short time, (several weeks) all of a sudden the brake noise is constant and a lot of brake dust appears on one wheel.
This just recently happened on my Dakota and I ended up replacing both calipers and one rotor. 40K miles on it.
But I think some of these chain stores make sure you step on a rake.
What symptoms do you think people will experience with sticking calipers, or what signs/evidence indicate sticking calipers Opatience?
Usually when they stick the rotors are the first to be effected, they warp hard. nice pretty blue spots on the rotor are a pretty good indication that the caliper isn't releasing properly.
About half of the ones I have seen are not so much sticking in the piston, but the caliper guides.The other ones, the piston gets out too far and gets misaligned in the bore.
Had someone ask me today about their brakes on one side smoking, they bought a cheap caliper from one of those chain stores and paid the price, it stuck in the bore and cooked the pads.
Problem is, most folks don't relaize it until it is too late.
Used to be, that on the older cars with real bearings, it would cook the seal and they front brakes would start smoking, now with these new style sealed front bearings, the don't often seem to show that hey are hot.
The wear indicator on the pads should start squealing way before the pads are worn to the point where the piston in the caliper is too far out.
20,000 miles is actually low mileage for front pads, you may want to consider upgrading the quality of parts that are being used.
I was late for work at Sears and figured I could just have pads put on at the auto-center while I worked. So I drop my keys off and go to my depertmant, only to get a call at my desk telling me the bad news. I needed pads, rotors, calipers, and NEW REAR SHOES, to the tune of over 400 dollars. I should have known better when I handed over the keys and asked them to put on pads because that's what the dealer told me I needed and they said, "we'll tell you what you need."
I said I just want pads, they refused to put on the pads without the other work, saying they couldn't replace pads without replacing rotors because of liability. I called the dealer's service manager, who I've dealt with for the two years since I got the truck at that dealer and who I completely trust, and he tells me to get out of there and either take it to him or someone else I trust because they inspected the whole brake assemply for my inspection that morning and found nothing else wrong other than excessive pad wear. I kindly said 'no thank you' to the Sears guy and went to the Midas by my house because I couldn't make it back to the dealer and was leaving on a long trip that evening. They told me the rotors could easily be remachined, and they also offered to replace the front pads, repack the front bearings because there was uneven wearing of the left front pad, and clean and lubricate everything for 250.
The manager called me out into the service bay and showed me all the hard parts and explained what needed to be done, answering all questions and showing me the proof of what he was saying. he pulled the pads and showed me the left one was way lower than the right, even mentioned that my rear backup light was burned out and he'd replace that too If I wanted. From now on if I can't make it to a dealer that's where I'm getting all brake work done. For brake work either go to a reputable dealer or a shop you trust. Don't just flip the phone book to a random page and decide on a brake shop that way. You never know how competent they may be. Far too often, they know they have you in a vise because they can claim whatever they want to do is necessary to avoid brake failure and an accident.
You buy parts from PepBoys,trust Midas and think Sears is trying to rob you???? And you work for Sears????
Does anyone see anything wrong with this post?
I also had a bad run-in with Don Olson with a 93 Mitsu Diamante. When asked to inspect my front brakes because they were making a lot of noise, they told me I needed new rotors and pads and the rear brakes only had 10% of their life left (their estimate was around $300). The funny thing was that just 2 months prior, I had the front brake pads replaced under warranty because the former owner spent $700 on new front rotors, pads, and calipers and the pads only lasted 3 months (they were the cheap organic kind). The rear brake pads only had about 6000 miles on them and were the semi-metallic kind, so they were still practically new. Needless to say, I took the car home and elected to look at the brakes myself. The front pads were 50% gone, but still had plenty of life left (though ridiculous how much wear after only 2 months). The rotors looked a bit scarred so I took them off and had them turned at a local parts store for a total of $20. They agreed the rotors were brand new and that it was ridiculous that Don Olson wanted to replace them. I bought a new set of high quality pads for $35. My repairs fixed my problem for a savings of $245. I also discovered that Don Olson had broke off one of my lug nuts without telling me and cross-threaded another lug nut so bad that I had to replace the thread and nut. I took the old front pads down to the manager and also showed him the 2 lug nuts his men destroyed and made a big scene in front of all his customers. He sure changed his tune real fast when he saw the evidence of their blantant lying and poor workmanship. I will never trust another brake shop again....
Personally, I feel the replacement of calipers eveytime you replace the pads is flat-out ridiculous and blatant gouging of the customer. As long as the calipers are lubricated everytime the pads are replaced, they should never have problems with sticking and should last at least 150K. My 84 VW GTI with 200K still has the original calipers and they work just fine. However, wheel cylinders (which operate drum brakes) do tend to leak with age and dont last near as long as calipers. Calipers usually just wear out as far as operating properly, not leak fluid externally like wheel cylinders. Anyway, don't let the chain stores screw you guys! Get second opinions or learn to do the simple job yourself and save lots of money.
Regarding the metal on metal sound from brakes soon needing replacement. Most front disc brake pads have a squeal bar (waster piece) that creates the noise you are describing when the pad thickness has decreased to where replacement will soon be necessary. If ignored, the noise will become more persistent as further wear is attained.. This alert should not be ignored on riveted pads as, once rivet to rotor contact is made,irreparable damage will occur to the rotors. Also, running your pads excessively low will result in excessive piston travel and increase the likelihood of gouging the cylinder sleeve requiring caliper replacement.
I'm serious!
It seems that often the shop that gives the cheapest quote is the "good guy" and the shop that wants to replace everything is a "crook".
A story...I told this somewhere else, forgive me.
When I managed a large shop I took pity on a nice young lady who was broke and had a bad clutch in her Volkswagen.
In an attempt to save her a few bucks I made a dumb decision and reused her throwout bearing that appeared to be in good condition.
These are usually replaced no matter how they look.
Well, a month or so later, the bearing started howling. The nice lady returned with her NASTY father who couldn't believe we could be so foolish to not put in a new TO bearing.
And I got to do the job for free.
Sadly, these lessons get learned over time. The radiator hose that felt and looked fine when the radiator was replaced will blow out on the freeway 2000 miles later causing the engine to blow.
The customer demands a new engine and takes the show owner to court.
"Your honor, the customer told me to keep costs to a bare minimum since they were getting rid of the car the folling week"
" As a professional, you should have known better"
Etc....
also, how about this... the guy who offered the cheapest quote should instead have explained to the customer everything that needed to be fixed and why and what might happen if it wasn't and then let them decide what they want to do once they know the consequences of letting certain things go.
and the mechanic who wants to replace everything should be honest about what really needs to be replaced and what doesn't and should be thinking about the longevity and safety of the car instead of lining his or her pockets.
I much prefer dealing with family businesses if possible rather than chain stores. Maybe the chains have lower prices, but you know, you get what you pay for.
Can you stop a car on grooved rotors? Sure. Do I want that grooved rotor shoved in my face when the car hits a wall? Uh-UH!
Oh, and the "lifetime guarantee" business. Sure, we will replace the incredibly cheap thing we put on your car with an equally cheap thing as long as you keep bringing it back in here.
I have had several people ask me if they could get by with replacing only certain parts, I tell them, they probably could, would I, NO.
I take a look, then tell them what parts need replaced,if they want a cheap job, I send them somewhere else. I've measured rotors that were with in thousandths of being considered not useable, I informed one guy that they would have to be replced as part of a brake job, he said they looked fine and that he didn't want them replaced, I said "See ya!".
3 months later, he was having the brakes redone because the rotors warped so bad that it shook the whole car.
In the situation of brakes and steering, if the vehicle is in an accident and there has been recent work on the steering or brakes, the mechanic or shop that did the work can be gone after for the liability.
So the comment about "then let them decide what they want to do once they know the consequences of letting certain things go."
Nope, the customer doesn't get that luxury because it is the mechanics reputation and liability that is at stake. If a mechanic does replace only the things the customer wants, he may find himself in a sticky situation and out of business.
Those are the people I have a problem with... the types of places where nobody ever gets away with less than a 3-400 dollar repair bill regardless of what theya ctually took their car there for because they want to gauge you for every penny they can.
If it doesn't say something like that,make them write it on the quote. If it doens't state something to that affect and they won't write it on there, leave.
Since you are employed by Sears, it's probably not a professional thing for you to get on a public forum like this and say the things you said about them.
I might suggest that if you really feel that strongly you might want to express your thoughts to your manager and/or auto center manager.
For what it's worth...
We once had a customer come in to have his idler arm replaced. As it turns out, his idler arm was fine. His lower ball joints were literally getting ready to fall apart.
We even took him into the pit and showed him.
He demanded thet I replace the idler arm and align the car as close as possible. I refused and he threw a fit.
I watched him drive away thinking that I should have called the police. His car was totally unsafe to drive.
I wondered later what our liability would have been if he had killed someone.
But...
1. You work for Sears
2. You called them crooks and said they tried to
swindle you?
Maybe you are getting ready to quit anyway.
Of course, I'm not there looking at it, but it sounds to me like either cheap rotors that easily warp, or they are not following the torque specs when the rotors are applied.
I'd do this.
Paint your rotors. Yeah the paint will come off, but not all of it. There should be an area towards the outer edge and near the center where the pad will not rub the paint off. However, if they machine the rotor, it is likely the outer edge paint will be gone. If they install a new rotor, there will be no paint. Then go to the shop and tell them you are tired of them guessing on your dime, so propose this. That they put in a new master cylinder and the hoses, if that fixes the problem, you will pay. Otherwise, they return your parts to your car and you will go find another shop. Tell them not to change or recondition any other parts. (I.E. they are not to machine the rotors as a "courtesy" measure.) Ask if you can watch, just to make sure they are not doing any other work, such as installing new pads/rotors.
And of course ask to see your old parts. The paint on your rotors should indicate that they are still the same rotors you came in with.
Of course, there many be other suspension issues, rather thana brake problem.
Best of luck.
TB
There is another possibility. Could there be a hard driver in the family that is abusive with the brakes?
There was a time in my life when I replaced my brakes VERY often. Now a set of front pads will last me almost forever.
Here are some good pieces on brake jobs, (Including the $99 ones)
http://www.motorage.com/edindex/0900feat2.htm
http://www.motorage.com/edindex/0900feat1.htm
BTW, at least for Japanese cars, stick with OEM pads and rotors. They last longer and give better performance.
And you are correct about OEM pads at least on a Honda. The Midas shops and others install "lifetime" pads...read the fine print...these tend to be made from a very hard material so they will last a long time.
The downside is squeaking brakes!