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Comments
If you had the work done elsewhere maybe after being rejected by a 5 star dealership and/or DC and have some documentation of that, I would also ask for at least a portion of that back, plus replacement of the calipers perhaps as well.
'99 JGCL first rotors warped at 4,500 miles
'99 JGCL second set warped at about 21,000 miles
'00 JGCL first rotors warped at 14,000 miles.
'00 JGCL aftermarket from AZ $100, self installed
still good at 35,000+ miles.
Small sample, but I have been convinced of the manufacturer's problem for a long time. Service manager at 5 star dealer refused to replace at 14,000 miles. I asked him about the pallet behind the dealership with at least 50 sets of 'used' rotors piled on, but he was not willing to consider any remedy other than to 'turn the rotors at owner's expense' for more than I paid for the replacement rotors. Then he wondered why I gave the dealership low scores on the service survey form. Plus, neither DC or the dealership ever responded to my request to put the rejection in writing...I opened a case with DC and all they did was forward it to the dealership who then followed up by phone. I am considering asking DC to reopen the case and will re-install the warped rotors if I can basically get a complete front end brake job out of the TSB for my trouble.
This occurred after, but not too long after, the 12,000 rotor warranty expired. In you opinion, would this matter? Do you think I could still try to appeal?
Thanks in advance for your info. I do appreciate it. janz
Model Year(s): 1999-2002 (models built May 11, 2002 and prior)
Another user here sent me an e-mail...he has subscribed to Alldata for Jeep GC TSBs...they have not updated yet and it is not on the NHTSB site either. Maybe the dealer would show you the complete TSB if you show up with the basic info..not sure. I have seen comments from other folks that have had rotors replaced after the 12,000 miles, so a lot of that is up to the dealer's warranty rep.
BUT, since this apparently covers ALL JGC built in '99, '00, '01 & '02, I doubt they could expect some of the early ones to be less than 12,000 or (forget if it was 12 or 36 months) for the brake warranty exclusion. To me DEFECTIVE means DEFECTIVE! If I wanted to do weekly maintenance on a vehicle, I would probably get one that would qualify as an antique or special purpose vehicle. IMHO, a modern, standard use vehicle listing for $30,000 should not require that type of maintenance to keep it going.
Most of the info other than what wlbrown9 posted relates to the details of the repair.
Under policy
POLICY:
Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty
I'm not sure whether this means 12,000 miles. To me it seems that if a repair was done and then the repair TSB was superceded by another method to fix the problem then they should fix it right.
There seems to be a lot of flexibility as to how the dealers cover the warranty. I'm on my third set of rotors (now warped), but they did replace them beyond the 12,000 mile limit.
I don't have the exact numbers with me but I think it was:
15,000 - rotors
20,000 - pads and rotors
24,000 - "new improved" pads and rotors
All these were covered under warranty. I think what was instrumental on getting it covered was bringing in the specific TSBs describing the repairs required. The reason they covered the last repair was that the TSB I brought in said that they were supposed to replace the pads with one's that had sticky backing (supposed to pull the pads off between braking) and they didn't.
They then replaced the pads and put on new rotors.
I plan on going back and trying to get them fixed again using the latest TSB, since they didn't do the "final, right" fix.
I have an extended warranty that covers calipers so I shouldn't have problems if I use the extended warranty. However, I was hoping to not use it since my son is using the Jeep and I don't want to transfer the warranty to him if I don't have to (only one transfer) in case I want sell it and use the warranty as a selling point.
There are potential cooling issues with the 5.9L in a JGC. I believe it has the same radiator capacity as the 5.2L engine... which is not good. To compensate, they put the louvres in the hood to aid airflow through the engine compartment. I know from my 98 owner's manual that there were quite a few towing restrictions placed on the 5.9L's because of "cooling issues." Reading this left me with the impression that it wouldn't take much to get one of these to overheat. Funny how they never pointed any of this out in their catalogs/brochures in the 98 model year.
Anyway, you really need to take a look at the vehicle's service history and compare this to known TSB's for this year and model to determine what's been fixed and what potential problems remain.
Even though the high mileage is "obviously" highway miles, the fact remains that there's a lot of miles on the vehicle and you need to look at possible maintenance issues and costs. Just changing trans, transfer case and front/rear diff oils and fluids (recommended every 30K) can run you several hundred bucks... it's not a cheap service.
Your call I guess...
I have a 1994 JGC 5.2L V-8 Limited with 102K trouble free miles. Now, a low pitch/frequency growling noise occurs with vibration when moving at 58 to 65 mph from the front end area independent of turning or moving in straight direction. The noise and vibration are worst at about 62 mph with accelerator only slightly depressed. Noise and vibration goes away completely during coasting or hard acceleration, or at any other speed.
My mechanic checked the wheel bearings, drive shaft, CV joints/boots, pinion oil seal, front axles, front differential, universal joint, motor mounts, and other possible sources. He found no obvious problems with them. The transmission, and both front and rear differential services were completed recently with appropriate fluids/oil. My mechanic thinks that the vibration and noise may be coming from the TRANSFER CASE.
What do all of you think? What do you think I should do next? Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
I know DC issued several TSB's over the years regarding this problem. Either stop at your dealer and inquire about them, or you can get a brief TSB description by searching either the NHTSB or AllData web sites. If nothing else, that should point you in the right direction.
You're right, I didn't. The brake rotor issue has been addressed a thousand times here already. I'm sure mday2 is intelligent enough to already have picked this up. Why continue flogging a dead horse?
I feel very sorry for your friend if she's having her rotors replaced every 4K when she changes her oil. Apparently, she isn't intelligent enough to figure out that replacing the OEM rotors with MOPAR replacement rotors doesn't solve the problem... it just starts the same problem all over from the beginning.
Brake rotors aren't a big issue, even on the JGC's. Simply replace them once and for all with any decent set of aftermarket rotors (for half the cost of MOPAR rotors) and quit worrying about it. Deal with the problem and get on with life... it's too short to worry about the small-potato stuff. Now if she's your friend, and you're a reasonably knowledgeable person, why aren't you pointing this out to her? It doesn't sound to me like you have.
If a person wants to walk away from a JGC because of the "horror stories" on brake rotors, then they're walking away from one of the best SUV's out there. If they're that particular, I don't think they'll be happy with any SUV.
"It's a Jeep thing"... you wouldn't understand. )
My mechanic is a good personal friend of mine, who is also an ASE certified mechanic with many years of experience. He owns an independent auto service center, and currently employs several other mechanics. I trust his honesty, experience and skill.
He told me that he was not able to find any unusual signs of wear with ring and pinion when he was servicing the differentials by opening it up and cleaning the magnets last week.
Today, I dropped my Jeep at a reputable independent transmission shop, which my mechanic friend referred me to. So far, three technicians have examined my Jeep, and they can all replicate the growling noise and vibration from the front end. They are not sure if the noise and vibration is coming from the transfer case. Now, they are all baffled, and can not seem to precisely locate where the source of the problem is.
Both my mechanic and the transmission shop technicians had access to the official DC Technical Service Manuals and JGC TSBs. Hmmm...truly puzzling...
Like other JGC owner's, I've never been happy about this fact. But I live with it and I don't let that stop me from owning and enjoying a vehicle I love. The simple one-time fix for this is to buy aftermarket rotors when the time comes. And it's considerably cheaper than having to pay for another defective set of MOPAR rotors.
94's were notorious for transmission failures, but this problem usually manifested itself by noticeable shifting problems.
The transfer case viscous coupler was also trouble prone in the 93-94's. If you make a tight radius turn (say pulling into a parking spot) do you feel the front wheels fighting each other... kind of a lurching sensation? Or hear any growling when doing this? That's an indicator that the viscous coupler is going out. Don't know whether this would cause the symptoms at the speed you describe.
The only other thing I can think of would be a bad differential pinion bearing. They had failures in the later 90's models and the symptoms were quite similar to what you describe. You definitely have enough miles on yours where this could finally be wearing out. Has your mechanic checked this by any chance?
It's still a good idea to replace the pass side wheel bearings. Just doing one side makes about as much sense as replacing only one tire or shock absorber.
Some other possibilities are front diff ring and pinion wear, pinion bearing or transfer case parts. All of these have been known to create the same kind of noise on the earlier Jeeps.
Also, have your mechanic do a better job of trying to isolate the noise, otherwise you're going to get severely "nickel and dimed" to death before you actually find the problem. Good luck!
Had the transfer case rebuilt at 50K (didn't like to disengage from Full-time 4WD, front end would scrub in corners and then a big BANG,...). Transmission computer replaced at 85K (was that ever hard for the dealer to diagnose - code said all 3 solenoids failed at once ).
Now I'm getting the front end fighting on tight corners again. What/where is the "viscous coupler", and what does it cost to replace?
Does anyone keep details on MTBF on these vehicles and make that info available to the public?
I love the vehicle, but have used up all my AAA tows/jumps for the year. Do I spend the money, or sell it? Opinions welcome.
A 2002 Silver QX4.
The vehicle is awesome. Handles well, good performance and a solid SUV.
I had a Jeep Grand Cherokee Ltd. The Qx4 is a much better SUV... there is no comparason.
Glad I made the purchase
Generally, I like to buy and keep my vehicles for 7 to 8 years. If average monthly repair costs are roughly equal to financing on a new vehicle, it makes sense to buy new. Leasing is another option.
If you need more room for people or storage, Suburban, Expedition, Excursion, Navigator, or even Durango may work for you.
I hope my experiences and thoughts help.
I REALLY like Grand Cherokee, even though I had a bad one last year.
With the end of the 02 model year coming up, you can get some great deals on new JGC's along with decent rebates or 0% financing. With what's offered now, I wouldn't even consider a lease. The 02's have been virtually complaint-free and much smoother and quieter than previous years. Or, maybe you may want to try another make/model of vehicle for a change. That's fine too... there's great financing options on almost everything out there today.
To answer your question about the viscous coupler... this is located in your transfer case and is the component that transfers power between front and rear wheels. It's kind of like a hydraulic differential. The symptoms you described are a failing coupler. This can be fairly expensive to fix... I believe over $400 depending on whether your dealership does it the hard way by removing the transfer case or if they were smart enough to get the "tool" that allows them to remove the coupler parts without removing the transfer case. The repair cost is high due to the amount of labor involved... not the parts.
You also need to take what bigorange30 has to say with a grain of salt. His feelings towards Jeep are well-known out here and he loves to troll in this forum. While I'm sympathetic to the bad experience he had with his Jeep (and he does have a right to voice his opinion), he's only owned one... and to me that doesn't justify the amount of complaining he does about them. Anybody can get stuck with a bad vehicle. My 98 JGC went back under the lemon law. Sure, I certainly didn't like that but it didn't "turn me off" on the JGC's. As for his statement that "there's no comparison between a JGC and a QX4"... I'm LOL.
I'm sure you're intelligent enough to be able to read between the lines and weed-out some of the extremely biased opinions you'll find out here. Good luck to you!
Thanks
Has anyone else had this problem?
I have taken it to a break specialist, the repair center where I purchase the car (CarMax) and now an actual Jeep service center. And none of them can find a problem.
It's not the break pads or rotors, because they were change with the recall. Any suggestions????
Yes, it's sad that DC couldn't/wouldn't do anything about the warped brake rotor problem after all these years. 8 out of 10 complaints are about the rotors and people make it out to be such a "horror story." Like I always said (and you say above) the fix is simple... replace them with any decent set of aftermarket rotors for half the cost the dealer will charge for another warped set of MOPAR rotors.
The low, grinding noise you're hearing when initially putting the trans in gear IS normal. To me, it's kind of a faint, ratcheting sound that lasts a second or two. Doesn't always happen either. Never had anything go wrong because of it on either my 99 or 02. And I don't worry about it.
Congrats, and may you have many enjoyable miles with your JGC!
very nice ride,no problems whatsoever, but I have had to finally admit to my husband, it just isnt me, and I need to be back in a Jeep. Actually going to Camp Jeep helped my decision along. We went in my husbands 2002 GJC Patriot Edition. So yesterday I put in the order for my Limited Liberty, and will say goodbye to the Trailblazer. I think once you go JEEP, you can't go back.
Jeeps here have a reputation of being expensive to keep...How feasible is self repair?
Regards
Andrew
to bmb1373...When I first looked at JGC in 1993, I also checked out Explorer, 4-Runner, and Blazer, the ONLY mid size SUVs at the time.
Explorer had mushy handling (compared to 4-Runner & Jeep). 4-Runner was under-powered and cramped (compared to Jeep & Explorer). Jeep had the most car-like ride and a v8 engine option. The Blazer still had locking hubs for four wheel drive. In fact, the Blazer salesman said he wouldn't even buy it! Granted, that was nine years ago. But I mention this because I think Jeep still has a better 4x4 transmission than Chevrolet. The ride is comfortable. There is a powerful engine for towing. Financing is cheap. Then there is the 7yr/100k powertrain warranty.
If this was a test, I would always go with my first thought. But I'm biased-I love my 2002 Jeep.
Like fishrxman, I always take a hard look at what's available whenever I'm in the market for a new vehicle. You owe it to yourself to do this so you can make an intelligent choice on how to spend your money.
Prior to buying my first JGC in 93, I always considered myself a hardcore GM person. I've had Chevy 4WD trucks, full-size K5 Blazers, Buicks, Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs. Man, I fell in love with my first JGC! Yeah, I've had a few of the problems you've read about out here. I even had a 98 go back under the lemon law. But overall, no more problems than anyone else has had with the vehicles they drive. And anyone can get a lemon.
There are times I wish I had a little more room than the JGC offers. I am on the tall side and would like to stretch out more. The only vehicle I'd consider as a replacement to my JGC is the Tahoe or Yukon. Everytime I buy a new vehicle, I always give these a serious look and test drive.
I won't even look at a Blazer or Trailblazer. I can't speak for the Trailblazer, but I've heard "rumors" that it has its share of reliability issues. You may want to do some further research into that possibility yourself, so please don't take my word for that.
I just can't help but feel the JGC gives me more value for my money. The JGC has more features, the fit and finish is better, best 4WD system out there (Q-D) and it's more manueverable... plus it's $4K+ cheaper than a Tahoe or Yukon. I always talk myself out of one when I really weigh my needs and situation. Well, I'm on my fourth JGC so far! Enough said.
Awaugh... the earlier ZJ's (93-98) could present some problems for you. Especially if parts or service aren't readily available. It's kind of a 50-50 proposition. From watching the history of the vehicle in those model years, I'm under the impression that you either got a relatively problem-free one or one that had one problem after the other. My 93 was very dependable, and like I mentioned above, my 98 was a lemon.
If your financial situation allows it, I'd highly recommend a WJ (99-up) with the 4.7L V8. The early production 99's (built before 4-99) had quite a few problems. WJ's produced from 4-99 to the present have improved considerably. The 02 is by far the best of the bunch. Regardless of what year you're looking at, for your driving needs, the V8 is the only way to go.
Brake rotor warpage has been a chronic problem since 93. I see that DC has a new caliper/rotor fix. Time will tell if they finally got it right. Any decent set of aftermarket rotors will fix the problem once and for all. Do not waste time and money on MOPAR replacement rotors as they are the same poor quality as the OEM rotors.
One good way to get an idea of what model year had the most problems is to do a search on TSB's and recalls. You can find this at either the Alldata or NHTSB web sites.
There are no special maintenance concerns on the JGC vs. any other SUV. And like any other SUV, there's nothing cheap (money-wise) about performing maintenance and repairs. If you're outside the U.S., this will be a concern to you. Just do the research before buying any vehicle.
Remember... people write more words of complaint than praise, so you need to read between the lines on a lot of the posts out here. Most of the JGC complaints are unrealistic and about things that are more annoying than anything that led to actual part failures, or breakdowns that left the owner stranded. To me, that's the true measure of a vehicle's reliability.
Happy Jeepin'!