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New Diesels, who is king, Cummins, Dmax, PSD
Former Chevy fan, bought a Cummins in '92, great engine. The truck fell apart around it though. Needed a new one in '99, bought a PSD, great truck, 120k miles so far. Business is getting busier, need another diesel pick-up. Of course the hot ticket is supposed to be the Duramax/Allison combination. Problem is I really don't care for the rest of the truck. A heavy duty 4wd truck like this should have a solid front axle. Chevy doesn't offer this like Dodge and Ford. The rest of the Chevy still strikes me as geared towards driving like a car. I am also skeptical of the first year problems. I read about the turbo overboosting under big loads. All I do is haul BIG loads. I'm telling you I want to like it.
The Ford is a known quantity for me, it is also cheaper. I may stick with this one.
The Dodge still striks me a an awesome engine looking for a decent home. The Ram seems plauged by front suspension and brake problems. I can only surmise it is a design problem if it hasn't been fixed in 7 years of production.
Sounds like nobody but Chevy has access to the Allison trans for two years. This is possibly the part I seek the most, a good tough trans. Of course time will tell on this new design as well.
So now that I have rambled on, what do you think? Which one and why?
The Ford is a known quantity for me, it is also cheaper. I may stick with this one.
The Dodge still striks me a an awesome engine looking for a decent home. The Ram seems plauged by front suspension and brake problems. I can only surmise it is a design problem if it hasn't been fixed in 7 years of production.
Sounds like nobody but Chevy has access to the Allison trans for two years. This is possibly the part I seek the most, a good tough trans. Of course time will tell on this new design as well.
So now that I have rambled on, what do you think? Which one and why?
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Comments
dmax hands down
Had a 3500 cummins ext cab 4wd come into work and pick up some plywood shingles and other building materials. Man it was a dog. You could tell by the engine noise it was struggling a bit with the load.
A little while before this i seen my first dmax/allison. 2500HD 4wd ext cab. We put about 60 sheets of drywall all different sizes 12ft - 4 ft lengths. Truck had no sag and the engine sounded much stronger hauling then unloaded.
Also you could barely hear the dmax it was just a hair louder than my 5.3.
I would never go with a diesel no ned for one but the new dmax is one powerful truck.
Cant speak for the psd.
Ryan
Must be they are just as good, with better off-road capabilities (ie. articulation). Also, take a look at the GM capacities for towing & hauling. Must be just as good, they increased the limits from the solid axle design. Then take them for a ride. You will know why they have switched over.
The bottom line is they all make a good truck, and you shouldn't be biased by old-world opinions. Just my $.02
Then they had Dodge, Ford, and GMC 3500 duallies, set up with 3500 lbs. in their beds, and 4000 lb. trailers behind. Everything was supposed to be pretty closely matched, but who knows if rear axles were the same, etc.? The Dodge was about 800 lbs. lighter than the others as it was only an extended cab, (others were crew), and it had only a 3500 lb. trailer. The Dodge was slow and steady up that grade, with no need to hit the brakes at the top before turning right, as it wasn't going fast enough. And yeah, it was loud! The Ford was noticabley quicker than the Dodge up the hill, but still didn't require braking before turning. The GMC was very quick up the hill. Pulled and pulled, and was going way too fast to make the turn at the top. I had to get on the brakes pretty hard to get the rig ready for the turn. It was a very interesting display of the three trucks. If it was apples to apples as far as rear gear and everything, then the Duramax is hands down the most powerfull engine in stock form. With the weight back there, the Dmax had just the slighest hint of turbo lag, enough to notice it, but no big deal. My buddies '01 PSD has terrible lag even when empty. Around town, unloaded, the Dmax feels like a gass engine, a really strong gas engine.
So because all I want are Chevy's, I will buy a 82-99 to get the Detroit Diesel.
Why couldn't the go with CAT?
Roger350, very interesting comparo. Power isn't the big issue here. They all have tons of it and can be easily modified to have much more. I am enamored by the allison, definately looks to be the best thing to happen to HD trucks in a long time.
chevytruckfan, Cat doesn't make anything remotely close to fitting in a pick-up right now. I agree that would make for quite a truck if they ever did decide to do it.
If the Allison is all it is advertised to be, it is a stud, and quite possibly the only automatic that can truly handle a diesel. When Dodge gets them they will have a total powertrain. If they can build a truck around it they will kill everyone else's sales. But, I still can't get past the terrible Chrysler image of poor reliability.
As far as CAT, I heard from a dealer way back about 3-4 years ago that the "New" GM diesel was going to be a CAT. In fact, the guy had a GM printed poster advertising a CAT engine. Seems like all the magazines were leaking that rumor back then too? Something must have fallen through, I heard CAT told GM to go shove it? Who knows? But, people make way too much noise about the Isuzu deal on the DMAX. I believe the engine was designed here, and it is built here, all by Americans. It just so happens that some of the Americans designing/building it draw a paycheck from a company based in Japan, and hence some of the profit goes back there too. Big deal, get over it.
Its interesting that Dodge is going to have a GM transmission in their truck (Allison is a division of GM), thats going to be fun to harass the dodge owners about lol
chevytruck, wake up man! This is a global economy, is your TV made in the USA? Better throw that out too. I'm not sure on the deal with Isuzu, but they are either just a supplier or mabye only the original designer and the engine is built by GM. Either way they are a really small part of the picture. Don't worry GM makes enough on each of these pick-ups to easily fuel their coffers. It just doen't make any sense to say you would buy the old 6.5, that engine is a well know pile of junk. You are going way beyond patriotism and venturing into stupidity.
Hummer, tell me what good this beast is to a civillian? It is too big for off road trails, too big for the average garage, painfully slow, uncomfortable, unreliable and not nearly as good off road as you may have been led to believe. The Marines and Army Rangers have taken delivery of Mercedes Geleandewagens for evaluation. They have found them more capable and reliable than the Hummer in almost every task. They only fall short in ultimate payload. Sorry, I just have this vendetta against them and the misconceptions that surround them.
So that means GM and a company they have controlling interest in (Isuzu) and a company they have worked with before all collaborated on this engine.
I haven't had the pleasure of driving a new Silverado with the Duramax but wouldn't you guys agree that its alot better than the old 6.2, 6.5?
I think the reason GM went this route is because the 6.2 wasn't a very popular diesel with mechanics or owners.
I like GM products but have you ever changed the valve covers on a 6.2?
First step: remove fuel injection lines. WTF??
Ever have to "fish" the swelled up glow plugs out?
GM went out of their way to make it look like a gas engine with those lines covering the valve covers and putting the injectors in a location that spark plugs would normally be.
On the International (Ford) and Cummins diesel you dont have this nonsense.
I've heard many things about the old 6.2, mainly that GM basically converted a 350 gas engine to become a diesel with as little changes as possible to a Detroit Diesel engineer saying that they didn't want their name on that engine.
As for the Japaneese thing, didn't mean to aggitate you. To each his own.
a 4 and 6 liter, and plan to put it in the expedition and the f150. any thoughts or links. the diesel will help the larger truchs and SUV's and the new technology makes them better. Motor trend made the Chevy i think truck of the year.
If my info. is right Cummins is owned by Ford. So if Dodge has a Ford engine and a GM tranny and those are the only things that last and don't fall off why would any one buy a 1/2 or gas Dodge.
P.S. inside info on the 2002 Motor Trend truck of the year The all new DODGE RAM. If anyone form Motor Trend is reading this please don't even send me this issue.
For info on the New Ford (Navistar) diesels go to www.thedieselpage.com Even though it is a GM site, they have a section on the Fords in their Forum. It will also point you to the Ford site, which I can't remember? The new Ford diesels will be incredible. A much bigger leap than the DMAX. They will be camless, using solenoids to open the valves. Huge reduction in friction, and infinitely adjustable valve timing. They will blow everyone away with more torque and horsepower. I hope they get some good transmissions behind them though, otherwise they will be severly strangled by the weakest link, like the Cummins is now.
As for why people buy Dodge trucks with gas motors, the politicaly correct reason is Mopar loyalty. The real reason is that there is a sucker born every minute. But then again, I guess the two are linked?
Actually Ford owns very little (if any) of Cummins. There was a time, about 10-12 years ago when they owned about 10-15%, however they sold out at least 5 years ago. I believe that the biggest shareholders of Cummins are a couple of funds (either a mutual fund, or some large retirement fund) which own something like 7-8% each. This information is available several places, including yahoo's finance site.
Regarding Dodge quality, I have been very surprised by my parent's 2500. They've put 180,000 miles on it in 3 years, half or more pulling trailers. So far, they've replaced a fuel pump (I think it was a Bosch part, but am not sure). The cruise was inop in some -10 weather last winter, and the clutch switch (starter lockout) didn't engage twice but otherwise that's it. I drove it the other day, and the interior is surprisingly tight - as tight as our Expedition with 1/3 the miles :-( I'm not particularly a Dodge fan, but given what I've seen, I think some of the criticism on Dodge build quality is unwarranted.
My gut feel is that all three are pretty decent engines, with a potential fuel economy edge going to Cummins, and possibly other advantages (as noted above) to the others.
Also glad you corrected our missinformation about Ford's ownership of Cummins.
Just read on thedieselpage.com that Ford will not be getting a camless diesel as I originally posted. Apparently someone talked with an International/Navistar employee and found out that the camless technology is only being applied to the bigger engines right now, and wouldn't make it into a Ford product until maybe 2007-10. I, as everyone else, was deeply disappointed to hear that. But, they did say the 6.0L Ford product would be class leading when it comes out in 2002-03. I think they will all one-up each other for years to come. As a GM fan, it is nice to see GM finally get into the game with the Duramax.
Hunter
I considered the Duramax for mileage reasons, but basically decided that it wasn't the way to go. And unless unleaded goes up to $3.00 and diesel stays at $1.50, I'd say the decision was the right one.
Why is it that we are more worried about saving money by getting great gas mileage, instead of saving it up front by buying a gas engine that eats more an a weekly basis? It is one of those weird physcological things.
If GM will produce this truck in CC 4x4 with the 3.42, Duramax/Allison I may be very interested. Oh yeah, the ZF, is .72 and 1.0, the allison is .71 and 1.0.
Hunter
I thought the same thing, rpms could be a bit lower for highway, 3.42 about perfect. My buddy's 97 Power Stroke 5 speed can't pull more than 85 (give or take, can't remember what he told me exactly) before he's done. Says he is running up in the yellow area of the tach too. Wishes he had the automatic.
Nevertheless, first tank seems to be getting good economy. Don't have the numbers yet, I speculate 18-20 mpg, city/highway/mountain mix. Have about 375 miles since dealer topped up, (34 gal tank), indicates above half full. Again, about he same, maybe slightly better than 5.3L gas w/ 34 gal tank. (You never go as far on the 2nd half of the gauge)
Empty, truck would pull Monarch Pass, 11,600 feet in 6th gear. Gets real curvy, and you have to slow down near the summit, so dropped to 5th so as not to lug.
Back on the flats, tromp on it at 60 mph in 6th, leaps to 97 mph faster than my 5.3L would have. Satisfied so far...of course am only on day 2.
to ellicit your comments and to better educate myself and everyone. Okay here goes:
Quadrunner500 - Your one of the lucky ones to own a 6SP - Consider it a "one-er"
Hunter98- Your forgetting the reason for the 2001 Hd is for Pull/Hauling Power. ie: a sailboat sure gets better mileage than a powerboat.
Roger350- If you buy the Duramax and hold onto it for 5years or so, and do a lot of traveling then its even.
RS Petty - The Hd were designed to pull a lot not
get great gas mileage.
Again I hope I've not offended anyone - I'm sure waiting for my Duramax to a haul 3500 lb Camper and trailerboat and Kyack.
PS: My worse "not buying decision" was a 1992 Allison 1-Ton Dually. I turned away because it was'nt an extended cab. I hope all pickemup truck fans hope that the Dodge truck survives.
Hunter98- Change your field of expertise - design a duramax with 3:10 ratio which would get 29 MPH. But you have to understand the engineers/marketing point of view. I guess that if all you guys keep plugging , it will happen. I can just imagine a Duramax in a 1500 with a 3:42 getting 29 MPG
Ad2,
My first tank is in. Seems a little too good to be true at 22.2 mpg, 60/40 highway mountain/city.
I put on 410 miles. With gauge reading 1/2 full, I decided to top it up. I let the automatic shutoff stop it, then started it again after a few moments. Dealer may have overfilled it, since spilled some on paint. If I could have stuffed another gallon and a half in there, still would net 20 mpg.
It's regular cab model, so anyway you slice it, it's a smaller truck and should do better than a crew cab or dually. http://www.picturetrail.com/quadrunner500
Towing : Dodge 422 Chevy: 365 Ford: 413
Nontowing: Includes Significance, price, performance/handling, fuel economy, comfort/layout
TOTALS: Dodge: 94 Chevy: 109 FORD: 97
TOTALS: 516 474 510
Nuff said about Dodge quality/performance in the Gas category and we all know how the the Diesel is.
I don't want to get into a pissing contest, because you aren't going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. I hope your Dodges are all great trucks. Have a good one.
They loved the new engines. Basically said they are ahead of everyone now in the HD class. Even showed then towing a ford SD on a trailer.
Ryan
Being best in class, (or whatever) is always a moving target. The reign at the top is never long. Best to just buy what you like, and enjoy it for what it is. Six months later, something else will come along to knock it down. It's what keeps us coming back!
While on the subject of the PSD, how come no builder of Motor home chassis puts that engine in their diesel pushers? Cummins and Cat own that market.
As far a the Duramax is concerned, I suspect it will blow everything else away until the competition comes up with something better.
few weekends back at work we had a 3500 cummins and a 2500 duramax in the same aisle (lumber yard). Another employee walked down and told the guy (dodge) he needs to get one of those diesel engines. He said thats no diesel the employee said go take a look. Guys jaw dropped when he heard and sen the duramax. He seriously didnt believe it till he seen it.
I couldnt believe it till i heard it also. very quiet
Ryan
It doens't sound like a diesel, that 30% of the reason to buy a diesel.
But I think the biggest advantage the Duramax has over either, is the transmission choices.
There may be some other smaller advantages, maybe some disadvantages. I don't know. DM is my first diesel, I'm naturally a bit biased. But those other two are still among the best and most popular of all truck engines.
I think the reason Power Stroke Diesel is not in motorhome chassis is simply all the production is spoken for in pickup trucks, all they can make.
Rumor I heard some time ago is that DamnearChrysler was going to drop the Cummins for a Mercedes Benz diesel anyway.
Go to car-truck.com for all the info.