Land Rover Freelander

stever · April 2001

First Drive: 2002 Land Rover Freelander

I wonder how close to $25k US it'll really cost?

Steve
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jgts1 · April 2001

because it looks like a Honda CR-V.....performance wise, I haven't heard its anything to write home about. But, its still a $25-$30k Land Rover- so, it should sell just fine.

tincup47 · April 2001

The only thing it has in common with the CRV is looks. V-6 engine, 5spd steptronic trans, Unibody developed for off-road abilities (not based on an existing car), Hill Descent control. All these things and more will put it head and shoulders above the CRV.

jgts1 · April 2001

Its going to be a better vehicle than the CRV...just being facetious.

tincup47 · April 2001

Sorry if I offended, just trying to provide some info on the differences

jgts1 · April 2001

your providing real info.....nothing wrong with that

.

bobcatbob · April 2001

To say the least, I think this will be an interesting option in the SUV market. but, three things worry me greatly.

1) The ability of LR to produce the Freelander in mass, US size quantities. The reports are that LR will double their sales with the Freelander, but will they be able to produce enough vechicles so that the waits aren't that long?

2) Speaking of waits, does LR have a history of charging a premium over sticker on their vehicles? This one is destined to be popualr from the get-go, so it concens me that the top-of-th-libe HSE will not be $30K, but rather $35K with a premium...Heck, does LR have a history of dickering over price on their vehicles, or is it sticker and that's that?

3) The Disco II is getting cut to shreds for its many problems. As the Freelander is an older design, I hope this version will be almost "all-new" with many kinks worked out.

What does everyone think?

tincup47 · April 2001

Land Rover is not a mass marketer, so production will be tailored to the sales numbers estimated. Land Rover retailers, like almost all automotive retailers, are independant businesses and will set their own pricing policies. Freelander has changed from the original vehicle with about 75% all new and updated parts.

bobcatbob · April 2001

Well, agreed on the dealers being independant, but...I'd imagine there has to be some pricing history there. Sales estimates say that LR will move over 50K of these in the first year.

LR has established www.freelander.com to hype the little bugger.

Also the Swinton plant has been expanded to handle the new 2002/2003 RR, which is based off of the X5 platform. Thus it'll have IFS and IRS...Talk about a bad move.

drew_ · April 2001

The Mitsubishi Montero has 4 wheel independent suspension, and so far all of the auto magazines I have read have been very pleased with its off-road performance. In addition to this, it won the '01 Paris to Dakar Rally, which is 21 days of off-roading, and over 6200 miles across the African continent. Last year, the 4 wheel independent suspension prototype class Renault buggy won the race (and the year before, and the year before that too!), as did the Mercedes-Benz M-class SUV (4 wheel independent suspension as well) in the T1 production vehicle class. It may not be too bad of a move after all, considering what most people do with their Range Rovers!

Anyway, back to the Freelander...I took these pictures of UK spec Freelander (dressed up with a weird package) at a recent autoshow:

Drew
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tincup47 · April 2001

I know LRNA is forecasting 20,000 sales for the 1st year in the U.S., looking to double total sales to 50,000. I certainly hope they can do more than that, as I have a personal interest in LRNA's success.

schragem · April 2001

bobcatbob · April 2001

Drew....Since you saw the Freelander in person, can you give an approximate guess as to how high it stands? From the photos it looks no taller than the Subaru Forester.

bobcatbob · April 2001

A personal interest in LRNA success?? Do you work for Ford?

ALso, I know the Montero had four wheel IS, but do we really think the one that took the Paris Dakar title is the same at th dealer down the street? Honestly, I have no idea, but I am guessing the racing Montero had some mods to its body, frame, and suspension.

drew_ · April 2001

I would say that it's Honda CR-V height. Definitely higher than the Subaru Forester. Entry and exit was easy. I sat in both the front and the rear seats. The front seats were quite comfortable, but really tall folks may have a problem with headroom. The rear seat had adequate legroom, comparable with the Mazda Tribute, at least from what I remember. There was definitely a lot of interest in this vehicle!

The ergonomics were traditional Land Rover though. That is to say, okay, but not great. The centre console cluster is a bit low down and far away from the driver.

Drew
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tincup47 · April 2001

So I do have a definite interest. I have driven a 4 cyl Freelander that was here for testing, it is about CRV Height, but I find the interior much more comfortable. I also presently own a Forester (bought before I became a permanent employee) and find the Freelander a bit more comfortable in front and it has much better rear seat room. It falls down in cargo capacity though. The 4 cyl Freelander felt quick and more solid than the CRV I had test driven before buying the Forester. I am 6'2" and large of girth and had no problem getting comfortable in the Freelander, I actually find it more comfortable than the Discovery. I can't wait to try the 6 cyl NAS spec vehicle.

drew_ · April 2001

Wow, we're fortunate to have you as an insider then! Any hints to share with us? ;-)

Drew
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tincup47 · April 2001

Will not have the teal colored HVAC vents or the light grey dash. The vehicles without wood trim will have brushed silver on the HVAC surround and Shifter trim, and ash black will be the dash color. Also the vehicle in Canada was a German spec car (U.K. Spec are RHD). Also we will not be getting the ribs on the exterior. We are also going to have a full line of accessories to give the off-road look to the vehicle.
For those wondering about the off-road capabilities, this will be a true Land Rover. From comments of our off-road driving instructors I gather that they were very impressed with the capabilities of the vehicle. Even with independent suspension it still will have a class leading 10.5" of ground clearance. The v6 engine has variable length intake runners to provide for more torque at lower RPM. Also 1 and 2 gears in the 5 speed steptronic trans are geared lower to help overcome the lack of a 2 speed transfer case. Approach and departure angles haven't been announced, but looking at the vehicle they should be acceptable. I hope to get a chance to take one off road at one of our test tracks. As I get more info that I can post I'll let you all know.

bobcatbob · April 2001

Well, I am 5'11 and have very broad shoulders, so I am glad to hear that the Freelander is a bit spacious. I also think I might like the HVAC and radio controls farther away and on that angle as I have long arms (5'11 with the arm lnegth of 6'3 man) so I like the controls placed lower.

So, Tincup, a LRNA employee huh? Are you basd out of Lanham, MD or are you a dealership guy? 10.5 inches of GC, really? It looks like it is a alot lower than that. Is that effective gorund clearance (i.e. from the lower part of the control arm) or from the center of the suspension?

Personally I have been hearing about the Land Rover for the past year and a half when a friend working for BMWUSA tasked to LRNA told me of the vehicle.

bobcatbob · April 2001

Tincup...

Edmunds reported three trim levels in their "first drive" a week or so ago. Do you habe any information about the differentiation between these three levels? How about approximate sticker prices? Also, the brochure I received from LR says that Freelander wil be here in December 2001, does this sound about right or will it be earlier in the fall?

stever · April 2001

Now we can all go off-road.

Steve
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tincup47 · April 2001

I am based at Lanham, our dealership personnel are employed by the dealerships. The ground clearance should be effective clearance as there are no links hanging down ala Escape, Rav4, or CRV. There are going to be 3 trim levels, the base level has cloth interior and 16" wheels. The SE has leather seats and 17" wheels, and the HSE has more leather trim, CD changer, and NAV system. There are probably more differences but those are the major ones. No word on pricing yet, it may be set but I'm not in marketing. I haven't heard a firm release date, but Nov.-Dec. is the target.

bobcatbob · April 2001

So, if I read the "muddy brillint" article correctly, the Freelander will get 17-25 MPG in fuel economy...Not too bad, though that 10.1 in the quarter is slower than the 148HP RAV4...Kind of slow really.

Tincup: My friend used to work out of Lanham and then when Ford purchased LR, all hell broke loose. I am intrigued by the "no link hanging down" aspect of the rear suspension. If I envision it correctly, it will akin to the M class or the X class in structure. Very cool.

tincup47 · April 2001

The rear suspension is macpherson strut instead of a multi-link suspension. BMW was not the kindest steward of Land Rover, in fact we had been told in Feb. that the Lanham bldg was closing by the end of the year. A lot of good people left the company while BMW tried to assimilate us in a Borg like fashion. Who was your friend? I might have known him (or her). many of the people with BMW were quite nice, but the company as a whole left a sour taste with the Land Rover faithful.
The Freelander was designed to be a competent off-roader while retaining good road manners. The 0-60 times may not look that good, but one of the primary goals was to have good low speed manners for off-roading.

bobcatbob · April 2001

I was tooling around Google and took a look for stuff on the Freelander. I found this one and though it is long, it's probably the best article I have read on the vehicle yet.

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=6998

Happy reading!

Bob

stever · April 2001

V6 set to explode into US market.

link

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tincup47 · April 2001

We're the last to know sometimes.

bobcatbob · April 2001

I found the following specs on the canadiandriver.com website...

Quick question for TinCup, this article says ground clearance is no more than 8.7 inches, yet you said it would 10.5. What is the cause for the confusion?

ENGINE
Type: 24-valve DOHC V6 with Variable Induction System (VIS).
Construction: Cast aluminum-alloy cylinder heads and block.
Wet cast-iron cylinder liners.
Displacement: 2.5 liters (152 cu. in./2497 cc).
Bore x stroke: 3.15 in. x 3.27 in. (80 mm x 83 mm).
Compression ratio: 10.5:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 175 @ 6,250 rpm
Torque @ rpm: 177 lb-ft @ 4,000 rpm
Engine management: Siemens 2000
Fuel management: Sequential fuel injection.
Ignition: Direct ignition.
Alternator output: 120 amp.
Fuel requirements: Regular unleaded 87 octane minimum.
Fuel tank capacity: 15.6 U.S. gallons (59 liters).

SUSPENSION & STEERING
Front: Independent. MacPherson struts, lower arms, coil springs, anti-sway bar.
Rear: Independent. MacPherson struts, trapezoidal links, coil springs.
Steering type: Power-assisted rack-and-pinion.
Turns lock-to-lock: 3.2
Turning circle: 38.0 ft. (11.6 m).

DRIVETRAIN
Drive system: All-wheel drive with center viscous coupling and four-wheel Electronic Traction Control (4ETC).
Transmission: Jatco five-speed Steptronic automatic with intermediate reduction drive and locking torque converter.
Gear ratios: First 3.47:1
Second 1.95:1
Third 1.25:1
Fourth 0.85:1
Fifth 0.69:1
Reverse 2.71:1
Final-drive ratio: 3.66:1

BRAKES
Power-assisted front disc and rear drum brakes.
10.9-inch (277-mm) front disc/10.0-inch (254-mm) rear drum.
Dual hydraulic circuit with front/rear split.
Four-channel, all-terrain Anti-lock Braking System (ABS).
Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD).
Hill Descent Control (HDC).
Parking brake operates on rear drums.

STANDARD WHEELS & TIRES
16-inch aluminum alloy wheels.
215/65R-16 radial tires.
Full-size, exterior-mounted spare tire fitted to aluminum alloy wheel.

EXTERIOR DIMENSIONS
Overall length: 175.0 in. (4447 mm)
Overall width: 71.1 in. (1805 mm)
Overall height: 69.2 in. (1757 mm) including roof rails
Wheelbase: 101.0 in. (2557 mm)
Track front/rear: 60.4/60.8 in. (1534/1545 mm)
Loading height: 25.1 in. (638 mm)
Rear opening height: 41.5 in. (1055 mm)
Rear opening width: 42.8 in. (1086 mm)

INTERIOR DIMENSIONS
Seating capacity: Five.
Head room, front/rear: 38.4/38.9 in. (977/988 mm)
Leg room, front/rear: 41.8/36.8 in. (1062/934 mm)
Shoulder room, front/rear: 55.9/53.1 in. (1420/1350 mm)
Usable luggage capacity: 19.1 cu. ft. (0.54 m3) estimate
With rear seat folded: 46.6 cu. ft. (1.32 m3) estimate
Under-floor storage locker: 0.6 cu. ft. (0.02 m3)

OFF-ROAD DIMENSIONS
Ground clearance:
Under front suspension: 7.2 in. (186 mm)
Under rear suspension: 8.4 in. (214 mm)
Under frame: 8.7 in. (220 mm)
Angle of approach: 30.5 degrees
Angle of departure: 33.9 degrees
Ramp breakover angle: 22 degrees (excluded angle)

PAYLOAD & TOWING CAPACITY
Curb weight: 3,444 - 3,585 lb. (1562 - 1626 kg)
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: 4,541 lb. (2060 kg)
Maximum payload: 1,488 - 1,599 lb. (675 - 725 kg)
Maximum trailer weights:
Trailers without brakes: 1,650 lb. (750 kg)
Trailers with brakes: 4,410 lb. (2000 kg)

bobcatbob · April 2001

Ok, so production is now increased so that 89,000 Freelanders will be produced per year...And, of these, only 20,000 are slated for the US Market?

Guess it'll be a long wait to see one in my driveway then.

tincup47 · April 2001

Was going by what I saw on an internal document, haven't actually measured for myself. I don't know if the 10.5 is along the centerline of the vehicle as is industry practice. The dimensions given look like they used the lowest points no matter where they were. I have no problem with that, as most IRS SUV's (and some with live axles) have much lower true clearances than they advertise. The departure angle is better than the Discovery or Jeep Grand Cherokee and the other angles are quite good for the class.

bobcatbob · April 2001

Hey no biggie on the measurements TinCup. I was just curious.

I compared these specs to the CR-V and they match almost exactly...BUT, the CR-V crushes the Freelander in cargo capacity by some 20 CF.

The CR-V is a bit narrower, but the tire track of both is identical. This tells me that the Freelander has wider fenders and is beefier.

Finally, the Freelander at 69 inches is taller than the CR-V, but those 69 inches incluse the tall roof rails, so I am guessing it is then about 65 inches, which is about as tall as the CR-V.

Of course, all of the CR-V numbers will be moot in a few months when the redesign is introduced.

All-in-all, interesting to say the least.

tincup47 · April 2001

The specs are rather close, except in cargo capacity. The load capacity on the Honda is lower though, along with less towing capacity. The Honda will be several thousand dollars less expensive also. I was surprised that the Honda was as close in weight to the Freelander as it is, it felt substantially lighter when I test drove it. I imagine that we wouldn't be a volume sales leader even if we had the capacity. The class is getting very crowded and there are a lot of capable vehicles competing against us.

bobcatbob · April 2001

Tincup: well, I know that LR couldn't be the sales leader in this category, but I tink they'll be able to sell 20,000 Freelanders a year, with a great majority of these at sticker price.

That said, I think one of the major problems will be pricing. For 30K you could get any number of vehicles, including a all of the mini-utes, and even an Explorer XLT with some nice equipment. I guess it goes back to pricing realted to economies of scale.

Speaking of pricing, I'd love to hear any insight you might have on pricing with this model. Carconnection.com mentioned a base price of $29,500 in a brief article, but that seems a bit high. I was thinking that the Freelander woudl base at about 27 and run up to 31 or so. Let me know what you think.

Also, one of my staff has a CR-V and I was lookign at it Saturday thinkig, well, this could be an interesting size vehicle.

tincup47 · April 2001

Would be a major concern if 100,000 was the sales target. I haven't heard what the pricing points will be yet, but from what I have heard the base leather car is supposed to start under $30,000.
The size of this vehicle is very good, the class is filling up and is the hottest selling of the SUV market. Mini-SUV sales are up over 50% so far this year, while Mid and Luxury sales are of by 10-15%.

stever · April 2001

"It's the best Land Rover that I've ever driven Made in Britain, owned by Americans, powered by Germans . . ."

link

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tincup47 · April 2001

The Land Rover website for the Freelander has been updated to phase 2.

http://www.landrover.com/content/freelander/index.html

unbelievable1 · April 2001

We had the extended warranty through Carmax (Max Care). Max Care is paying the portion that they would have paid for the new engine and Carmax is paying the rest of our loan. Then if we buy another car from Carmax then they will apply some money towards a down payment on another car. Carmax Rocks! Here it is guys, don't ever buy any Land Rover but do buy from Carmax. They do take care of their customers. Since we had the Max Care Warranty they gave us loaner cars the entire 9 months we were without the Land Rover. Carmax even believed Land Rover for the 9 months telling them that they would have a new reconfigured engine any day out of Japan (first ones came from China) but I think Carmax finally realized this would probably never happen. Please sell your Freelanders NOW. Go to Carmax and find something else.
Try the Max Care extended warranty, they stuck by us as well.

stever · April 2001

Freelander to enter new market

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bobcatbob · April 2001

Well, the newer stuff on the website is interesting and all, but prices or a "custom configure" option might be better.

I am further convinced that the price on this vehicle is going to have to be competitive, as in loaded for 30K because of the competition in the Small SUV arena.

Now, I say this with the Disco priced at about 35K...If, in it's redesign in two years it goes further up-market, then the Freelander will be slotted at 28-34 I'd guess.

In any event, I'd trust a first year Freelander over a first year Jeep, Saturn or Ford simply because, well, it isn't exactly the first year.

But, I am thinking that buying on of the 20K in the states may very well prove to be difficult. I think it'll be that big a hit.

tincup47 · April 2001

is being updated in stages, I imagine phase 3 will be up around mid-end June. As the date gets closer to intro, the content will become more detailed until it will have the same features as the Discovery and Range Rover pages.
I know they are targeting a price for the highest price trim level to be below the base Discovery. The highest trim level will have a navigation unit and 6 CD changer standard, the Nav unit not being available in any other small SUV.
We are having a 5 hour meeting on the Freelander soon, as soon as I find out more info that I can post I will do so.

bobcatbob · April 2001

Tincup: Thanks for agreeing to be the inside eyes on this one. I'd hasten to ask wht you do for LRNA, but if it is top secret, I think we'll all understand. I think there is enough information out on the Freelander, so the stuff I am mostly interested in is the arrival date, the pricing and equipment on the three levels, as well as a list of options.

The one lone variable in this for me is the new CR-V. I love the current one, but darn it isn't lacking a console in the middle of the two front seats. It was originally designed as a de-fato mini-van, thus the space between the seats. If there is a console on the 2002, and the power has increased to 160hp as speculated, I would be hard tempted not to give it a whirl. Of course, not one wit of credible or official information/photo has come out about the CR-V yet, so we're all in the dark.

I was thinking about the new Jeep Liberty, but dealers are already expected to ask 5K over sticker and I was told by a Jeep rep at the Baltimore Auto show "No matter what, expect to pay sticker and then some for at least a year, maybe longer." I am totally opposed to paying sticker, but would pay close if I was in love with a vehicle. Over sticker, love or no love, is obscene. Plus, given Jeep's poor relaibility and initial build quality, I'd expect some problems with the Liberty, but probably not as bad as the Excuse's, I mean Escape's launch last year.

The Freelander is still one of the only vehicles that, when I look at a photo, captures my imagination and is visually appealing. As David Halberstrom, in his book "The 50's" said "American's love cars like no other society, and they create a bond that is drawn out on the emotionl and tactile level." Ok, I am probably way too philosophical about this, but my point is that I am not into buying a car every two years, I am in for the long haul, thus the need to buy the right vehicle.

tincup47 · April 2001

I work as a call center specialist, answer parts related questions from our retailers. I haven't heard any detailed pricing info from marketing yet, but if I do I will share what I can. That will probably be limited to MSRP though. As far as getting deals on Land Rovers, they are available to purchase using Fords X-plan. This is a very good deal, and takes a lot of haggling out of the buying process. Many companies are on the X-Plan along with organizations like the EAA. Check out the sites in the smart shopper area for more detal.

countsmackula1 · April 2001

Land Rover should remain a maker of distinctive, different vehicles. Anyone who would pay $30,000 for a vehicle the size of the Ford Escape with mere all-wheel-drive and an-only- 175 hp small displacement V-6, obviuosly has more money than sense!!You're paying for the name and that's it! The vehicle is not even very luxurious for what you pay. A 4-Runner or Pathfinder with better quality, more room , and off-road capability can be had for about this same price! And they have an established reputation. In fact, this vehicle is little more than an Escape with a Mazda (BMW?)engine and a Land Rover badge. And it has rear drum brakes instead of discs!! Unbelievable! I know not everyone needs low-range , but buy an Escape and try to console yourself with the money you'll save. The Freelander does look pretty good though. One last thing: They screwed us North Americans by not bringing the TDI(diesel) over here. Oh well, I'm buying a Jeep Liberty anyway.

tincup47 · April 2001

The Freelander has 0 parts interchangability with the Escape or Tribute. It's 2.5 v-6 is not a Ford-Mazda design nor is it a production BMW engine. It is the same engine that powers the Rover 75. The Pathfinder also has a unibody design and the fact that a vehicle does not have a separate frame does not preclude it having true off-road capabilities. The TDI was not included for the US market because the anticipated sales numbers would not make certifying the vehicle practical and production of the diesel engined version is already at maximum capacity. This is due to BMW being unable to provide enough of the diesel engines to meet current demand. The Freelander is currently the top selling SUV in Europe. I would suggest that you might want to drive the vehicle before condemning it. The fact that it has rear drum instead of disc brakes really has bearing on its performance. I realize 4 wheel discs are sexy, but in SUV's it has no true performance advantage.

bobcatbob · April 2001

OK, I'll give you some of your points....Yeah, you're right about the price being a but high, and sure four wheel discs would be great... But, how many people in these United States would take a 35K-65K Land/Range Rover off road? Not many at all.

While you say that Land Rover has "given into wanna-bes," isn't that already the demographic of Land Rover in the US? Sure overseas the performance envelopes of vehicles is pushed, but in the US we are way too fond of our toys. Thus, a vast majority only see the rugged urban terrain.
I do believe that the next generation Range Rover will be all independent suspension, just like the X5.

Hey, we're all allowed our opinion on any matter we care to address. You have made good points and though some may disagree with them, I think that different thinking introduced into a discussion, is always good when making a purchase like this.

tincup47 · April 2001

The new Range Rover will have all independent suspension. You are right to a degree, most SUV owners don't ever take their vehicles off road. A higher percentage of Land Rover owners go off road than most other brands, all of our Centres have 4 wheels events per year that owners are welcome and encouraged to attend. Several Centres in the Balt-Wash. Area actually have their events at our Lanham Creek demonstration course, and we also have a course at Summit Point Raceway in West Virginia. At present we also have two driving schools, one at the Greenbriar Resort in West Virginia, the other at the Equinox Resort in Vermont. There are others planned, but do not know when or where they will be located.

bobcatbob · April 2001

I agree about your assessment of LR owners taking their vehicles off road more than others, but even that percentage isn't very high.

Thaks for the info on the Centers...Question about dealers in the Balt/DC area, how can I find a list? I assumed there was only one in Baltimore (Frankel) and one in DC. If there are more, that helps in shopping.

Also, you mentioned a section called "Smart Shopper" and told me to look there for information on X-Plan pricing...Where is this section? Edmunds? Ford?

I have heard of the EEA (Or EAA, I forget) and have always wondered if joining them for $35 actually saved you hundreds, if not thousands on a new Ford. What is the typical percentage off of sticker? Is this/will this, be applicable to the Freelander? Help me out on this one?

tincup47 · April 2001

is a section here in Edmunds. The X-Plan is 4 % over the A-Plan price, which is for Ford Employees. The A-Pland price is invoice less all fees, plus all incentives. Retailers are not required to sell vehicle's at that price, but are encouraged to.
Land Rover has 3 retailers in the Washington DC area, Land Rover Rockville (Centre), Land Rover Alexandria (Centre), HBL in Arlington (Shared facility). Centre's are stand alone facilities, have a demo course, and follow the Land Rover Way guidelines. We also have a Centre in Harrisburg PA.

gpvs · April 2001

Land Rover of Alexandria
HBL of Tyson's
Rockville Land Rover

I think if you go to the Landrover page, they have a section for all the centres in NA.

bobcatbob · April 2001

Ok, I looked and cannot find the Smart Shopper area! I am so dull sometimes...help?

Good to se there are quite a few dealers/centeres in the area...

stever · April 2001

Here's one plan discussion in Smart Shopper:

Ford Partner Program......(need some help)

and a message of interest here:

1jimv1 "Ford Escape" Dec 15, 2000 11:04pm

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Land Rover Freelander

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