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Nissan Altima
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Comments
Again, for the umpteenth time, let me repeat what I am saying and then I am going to leave this alone, and we can all talk about the new vehicles,
It is more reasonable to compare a 155hp 4 cylinder car with 94cft of space to a
150hp 4 cylinder car with 96.9cft of space than to compare a 96.9cft 150hp 4
cylinder to a 102.5cft 222hp V6 car.
The altima is a more COMPARABLE car to the camcord 4cylinders than the 4cylinder camcords are to the maxima, numbers don't lie! There is no way you can logically disagree with this.
Also, what is the difference if Nissan priced a fully loaded Altima SE V6 at 26K or 25K? The fact is that people will be attracted by its base price (which would probably be around 22K). A fully loaded Altima will have many features that the Accords do not have. Just going by the pricing of the Maximas (which has always been higher than the Accord and Camry V6 models), I think it's clear that Nissan isn't going to shy away with their prices when they know they have a good car put out. Reliability? Maximas are just as reliable as an Accord these days and their resale values have been comparable... there is no doubt that the Altima will do just as well (after it gets over the new model kinks). This is an all new car -- you can't simply put a stamp on it and say... since the old Altima sucked, this car will too.
That's simply not true. And anyone who has any feel for the market knows that's not true. And I bought on Edmunds' and other authoritative automotive to strengthen my point, and made it completely clear. NONE of those automotive experts, (me, you, har1bush doesn't count as automotive experts), consider the Altima to be a competing model for the Camcorder.
And for the last time: the current ALTIMA IS NOT a competitor for the Accord/Camry 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder. Only the Maxima is the Accord/Camry competitor, and the fact that Maxima has only V6 does not change the fact that it stands competes agains the whole Accord/Camry line up.
I agree numbers don't lie. But neither does the market analysis. It's quite plain and clear. And there is no way you can logically or realistically disagree with me on this.
"afterall, his argument now seems to be based on the automated edmunds "alternatives" list... give me a break!)."
Hmm... automated. Care to back up another one of your claims? Or are you just make things up without any evidence? Maybe I should give you a break instead? Let's see, should I take your words for the truth or Edmund's.... Tough decision there.
I said the Altima needs to price it self lower than the Accord to be certain of coming out winning. And that's based on past experience when an underdog car try to upset the market leader (Lexus LS400, Acura TL). Not only did they offer more of a car (which the new Altima is), but they also had to offer a lower price (what at $26K like you suggest, won't).
This is of course, a point of contension that won't be resolved until the car has hit the market. And this, I can agree to disagree. And for all we know, Nissan probably will be smart enough not to price the car higher than a loaded Accord ($25K).
WE ARE ARGUING TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!, market research has nothing to do with size and horsepower. let's make it easy,
You are saying that most people that cross-shop camcords compare with the maxima not the altima, I'm not denying this. You win! Point taken! No problem! Now slow down and listen, You can compare two things that are dissimilar, but two disimilar things are not comparable by definition. A 4cylinder camcord is not COMPARABLE to a maxima in anything other than the fact that they are all darn fine japanese sedans and no reasonable person would suggest this, they are not comparable in size, power, engine etc. In this case the altima is a more COMPARABLE vehicle to 4 cylinder camcords. I understand what you are saying, why can't you catch on to what I am saying so we can all move on and stop taking up space talking about vehicles that aren't going to be around anymore?
Anyway. I'm glad that you agree with my point. Good.
While I would still disagree that Altima is more comparable to the camcord (midsize car vs compact, "almost" being able to seat 5, just doesn't make it comparable to a midsize car), but I also grow tired of all this debate. I do believe that everyone has had a good view of both sides of the arguement.
Let's move on, if you still wish.
I am on the market for a family car, just as the next guy. Planning on getting a new one late this year or first half of next year. And certaintly, the info on 2002 Altima has peaked my interst.
Now back to the old topic before the debate about the current Altima interrepted it. How much would the 2002 Altima is likely to cost? How much do you, fellow car shoppers/buyers/owners, based up your feel for the market, think it should cost to hit the "sweet spot"?
I would say that the 3.5 SE should top out at no more than $25K MSRP, no more than then Honda Accord. And preferablly, I would hope it would be more like $24K MSRP, to desolve some of the concerns over Nissan's resale value and lower gas milage. What do you all say?
Leather
Moon roof
Bose
Automatic Transmission (people lets get back to 5-speeds)
Climate control
Traction Control
HID Head lamps
I am hoping to get a SE with for $24,000 ($21,800 invoice + 4% over) with the following equipment.
5-speed
cloth interior
Moon roof
Option package that includes Bose radio.
Standard head lamps
rear spoiler
As for press comparisons, one need not look any further than the Sept 99 of Car and Driver issue to find the 4cly Altima, Camry and Accord pitted against each other (and others) or the July 98 issue to see the Maxima, Camry V6, and Accord V6 face off.
But with the new Altima and updated Maxima, I think most consumers are going to be baffled as to which car they are supposed to be looking at in the midsize family field. Its not as clear cut a difference as with the Camry and Avalon, IMO, for instance. I wonder just how well this strategy (or lack thereof) is going to work for Nissan.
~alpha
Also, why would Nissan offer the Maxima with a 4 cylinder engine, the Maxima has always had a 6 cylinder I6 in the first generation. The Maxima is a slight step above the Camcords, it offers more, and is most times more sporty and luxurious(SE and GLE anyway.)
.
Accord/Camry is designed from the start to seat 5, haul a family of 2 adults and 3 kids -- hence the "family car" title they become known for.
Altima (until 2002 model), has only been designed to carry 4, it can almost carry 5 packed tight, but can't really cut it (close but no cigar). Due to this, it's never been in the same class, commonly do not share the same shopping list.
For example, I actually consided the Altima when I was looking for a COMPACT car for my wife few years ago. But ended up settling for the Mazda Protege, since it was roomier than the Altima still. But now that I'm looking for a family car, I didn't even consider the 2002 Altima until news leaked out that it was becoming bigger than the Camrcorders.
The car market falls into differe segments/catagories. And Altima falls into the intermediate catagor of large compacts. Larger than many of the smaller compacts, but not large enough to compete for the same role as the Camcorders.
Same reason why Maxima is in the same class as the Accord/Camrys. And while it's on the large end of the midsize cars, it's not a full size car. Why? Because it isn't designed like the Ford Crown Victoria/Toyota Avalon to seat 6 people. Hence it doesn't compete directly against them.
Most car buyers shop with a set of goals they need to achieve. They want to haul an typical american family (2 adults and 2.5 kids), they shoot for the midsize, not something smaller. If they want a highway cruiser, they go looking for a fullsize, not something other than that.
That's why Altima doesn't directly compete with the Camry/Accord -- it simply can't fulfill the roles the latters can.
That's why the Altima didn't appear on my midsize car shopping list until now. Now, the 2002 Altima finally has the ability to actually compete as a midsize car. Simple? I hope that ends it.
Maxima competes with:
GXE: Accord LXV6/Camry LEV6
SE: None of them really
GLE: Accord EXV6/Camry XLEV6
Also, the Passat is a compact car, would you say it doesn't compete with the Accord and Camry, even though Edmunds.com did a review of the Passat, Maxima, Accord and many others. The Passat might be smaller than the Camcords in dimensions, but in real life seating, it actually feels roomier.
If I had to put the Altima up against cars in the same size class I'd say the Chevy Malibu, Mitsubishi Galant, VW jetta, etc. But price wise the Altima IS up against 4 cylinder camcords. People that consider Maxima's dont want 4 cylinder engines, we didnt. When I stopped by my Nissan dealership the other weekend a salesman was showing a Maxima to a woman boasting of the V6 and she said "The thing is, I don't care about the V6. I'm fine with 4 cylinders". She then went on to ask about the Altima. V6 Maximas and 4 cylinder Accords/Camrys don't compare, pricewise, performance wise, blah blah. The only thing they're comparable on is size.
Nissan has said that the Maxima's main competitors are the Acura TL, Toyota Avalon, etc. (from Autoweek magazine). Which sorta makes the I30 redundant..but i agree with them. The way I see it, the base Maxima GXE is up against better equipped Accord/Camry 4 cylinders or base V6s. Maxima SE is up against the Grand Prix GTP, Acura TL-S, etc. Maxima GLE up against high end V6 Camcords, Acura TL, I30 (go figure!), etc.
Offering a 4 cylinder in the Maxima would be an insult to the name. How can a flagship have a 4 cylinder?!
Now the Camry and Altima will be something to look at especially since the Accord design is aging.
Both look good for what they are. The Altima will be sporty and for the people who are disappointed that there is no 3.5 SL so they can have all the luxuries and softer, quieter ride of the SL as well as the power of the V6, will go buy a 2002 Camry LE or XLE V6 instead.
People who are disappointed in any potential cheap plastic interior of the new Altima, will also go to the Camry since the rumor is that Toyota is going to undo some of the decontenting of the Camry that started with the 97 model.
"I have seen people cross shop from the Camcords to the Altima."
Yes, that's the exception rather than the norm. THere will always be exceptions, but the number isn't really large enough to matter.
"The Altima was usually choosen if people could not afford the Camcords"
Well, if you don't have the money, then you have to settle for something less, smaller, cheaper. Isn't that standard fare in the world?
We then differ on one point only. You consider the Maxima to only compete against V6 camcorders, while I consider it competes against both the V6 and I4.
You are basing your opinion on the fact that Maxima only has V6 engine, while Accord and Camry has also I4 versions available.
While I'm basing my opinion on the fact that the Maxima is the only Nissan car that's in the same class as both the I4 and V6 camcords.
P.S:
Also, the Passat is classified as a midsize. It's designed to seat 5, and it is classified by EPA accordingly as a midsize.
Price wise, the a loaded Altima can go into the territory of the low end camcords. But that's natual since there is always some over lap between the ends of the 2n different classes.
what does it list as competitors to the GXE auto Alty?
Camry, Accord, 626, Jetta, Galant.
And those where the cars I was looking at when I was looking to buy mine, except the Camry. Don't want Toyota.
Also, Carpoint compares the Alty to: (longer list) Passat???, Camry, Legacy, SaturnLS, GrandAm, Ply Breeze, Alero, Galant, Mystique ,626, Sonato, Accord, Leganza, Countor, Stratus, and Malibu.
and the IIHS compares the ALty to other midsize inexpensives such as, Cavalier, Malibu, cirrus.stratus/breeze, leganza, contour/mystique, accord, sonata,626, galant, grandAm/Alero, Saturn L, Legacy, Camry,
BTW, I brought the latest issue of Automobile Magazine, to my surpise, the Altima's exterior was the 3.5SE, but the interior was of the 2.5S with cloth, which didn't look all that good, kind of like the cloth in the GXE Maxima. But I could live with it. The shifter looks nice, I am definately getting the 5 speed. I don't understand the review that well, all they seem to do is harp on the styling, one minute they call it "handsome" then they turn around and call it "derivative and bland" I just wish they would make up there minds. Styling on the new Altima is beyond any Nissan lately IMO, besting the current Maxima, Altima and Sentra. Although I still like the 1 generation Altima the best. Definately going to buy this car, I CAN'T WAIT!!!
that was the exact thing that kinda confused me last week but then i clicked. I wonder how the SE Sport V-6 Camry will do when compared to the 3.5SE
If you think the rest of the world is with you, you better take another look around you. Seems to me, the rest of the world made it quite clear that they don't cross shop between the compact Altima and the midsize camrcords.
Well, I won't go down to the level of personal insults like you are. I rest assured knowing the reality of the market. You might not think so, but hey, you aren't the majority of the population.
Nissan has an opinion, and has acted on it. No one is going to buy any of these cars because of some preconceived notion about what niche they fit in the automotive universe.
You drive, you compare, you make your choice. Give it a rest on the endless discussion about marketplace positioning and perceived strategic advantages. Methinks all of this is using bandwidth to no good purpose...
Actually, I know the article you are refering too, it was not written by Nissan, there was never an official press release from Nissan and it was never on their website quoting 18mpg or the math that gets you there. It seems that either the article misquoted or they were not talking to the right people. Nissan did not release EPA numbers until just a few days ago.
BTW, for the interests of marketing numbers, here's some cross shopping info, anyone can do what they want with it, but I think this is the first hard numbers I have seen anyone post in reference to this.
%of altima buyers that also shopped competitors,
10.22% Camry 4 cylinder
9.02% Accord 4 cylinder
2.52% Galant
1.13% Mazda 626
% of maxima buyers that also shopped competitors,
12.48% Toyota Camry V6
4.96% Accord V6
4.41% Toyota Avalon
2.44% VW Passat V6
Source;
Maritz second quarter combined study
But I seem to have under estimated how much cross shopping that goes on between Maxima and Camcords. Only 12.5% of the Maxima buyers should consider Camr/cords? That's a bit odd. What's the percentage of cross shopping between Camry & Accord & Ford Taurus, the 3 sterotypical midsize car? It should probably in the high 70-80% range.
It will take 6-12 months to see how the new Altima competes with the Camry and Accord. All this speculation is a waste of time unless you work for one of these companies.
Lets talk about how much over invoice people are willing to pay. Next month we all will have seen and driven both cars and only then will opinions matter.
I took a look at the Isuzu Axiom recently (just curious) and its styling is BOLD. The exterior was beautiful except for the grille, which was just insanely designed. The interior had ALL the good stuff (LCD screen, auto climate, power seats, leather, shiny trim) but the car missed the mark on so many things. The LCD screen was an annoying hue of orange, the seats were only 4 way adjustable and had no height adjustment, the leather was thin and unsubstantial, the leather and plastic was colored a strange shade of 'carrot" which they thought was tan. These are the details that Honda (MDX) and Toyota (RX) sweat that make their cars so much more appealing. Now, that's not to knock the Axiom - for its price, you certainly get more than a fair share of excellent features. But that's the dilemma that Nissan is facing with the Altima. Are people willing to live with daring styling that will be dated after a year in order to get a better price and more power? Or are they going to stay with the conservative Accord and Camry, knowing that their cars will be tasteful many years down the road, which translates to a higher resale value?
Like I said, the Altima is a promising car and will get a lot of buyers just as the original did after the Stanza was fading away. But looking long-term, the car will have to be revised if Nissan is looking to establish the Altima as a true competitor to the Accords and Camries.
You are telling me that only 20% of the people would cross shop between Accord and Camry? I don't think you can ever come up with a low number like that.
I also never heard of that "largest crosshopping survey" you spoke. Sorry. J.D power, now I heard of that. Edmunds, I heard of that. Kelly's Blue Book, I heard of that too. But not the one you mentioned.
Advantage dealer:
New design (2002)
More hp 4 & 6 cylinder
Initial supply
Advantage Buyer:
Honda & Toyota want your business too.
Nissan wants to sell 190,000 units first year.
Dealers will compete against each other.
Many ways to buy:
Get invoice price off web go in and haggle.
Go through internet car buying service.
Do your own fax blitz.
Wait for hype is over and look for sale ads.
How much to pay?
Invoice + 4% 5% 6% 7%
Pay Sticker
Depending how people will buy this car will tell me what I can expect to pay.
JD power, Edmunds, KBB, have nothing to do with marketing, you keep making claims based on marketing information, the best thing to do is go to the biggest source and the only one that does cross-shopping surveys that I have ever heard of is Maritz, I really thought you implied you knew all about marketing and what the people want, but you have never heard of Maritz? And you really need to understand how the survey works and how they come up with the numbers, the more important thing is which is the most shopped and in which order, for the altima, the most shopped was the 4 cylinder camry's and accords, for the maxima it was V6 camrys and Accords. No other vehicle was compared more. Also don't forget to take into account repeat buyers, people that just saw what they want on the road and bought it, and the people that bought on a friend/family recommendation or because the dealer was close etc, etc.
Fax blitzes and car buying services are not going to accomplish much in the first weeks. That will only be of value after the dealers have stock of the 2002 Altima sitting unsold on their lots for more than a few days.
Either you want the thrill of getting it on the first day or the first week and pay the price, or you wait for the frenzy to die down before making your move.
Looking at the last Accord/Camry redsign, it pretty much turned out that way. Couple months of MSRP buying, then gradually comes down to the usual 3-5% over invoice.
All this is based on the assumption that the demand levels off, and the supply (manufacturing capability) is keeping pace with the demand. If the demand takes off (like Honda Odyssey), then MSRP buying will last a long while. But if the buyers don't like the design, and there is an over supply, then you will see heavy incentives by the automaker to move the vehicle (like Chevy Cavalier).
190,000 cars is definitly do-able as long as the price of the Altima isn't out rageous (when compared to the Accord/Camry crowd).
A large part of the question is how well the 2002 Toyota Camry will do, since they come out roughly the same time, and will also be heavily marketed. Honda Accord is being redesigned 12 months from now, and Honda VP has hinted that they will do more than 240 hp. So that will probably play a part sometimes down the road.
So I would say, expect to pay MSRP when the new Altima and Camry comes out. But chances are good that you will get a better deal by middle of the winter. Incidentally, winter is also typically the slow season for car shopping (as people are on vacation or too cold to bother with shopping). Dealers might be more willing to move the cars at a lower price then.
But I do have a fair feel for the car market. It doesn't take an expert to know that more than more than 20% of the Accord Camry buyers cross shop these 2 cars. And you still mean to tell me that 10% is more than one out of 10 people? Didn't you say numbers don't lie?
"JD power... have nothing to do with marketing".
This is why I think you need to double check your info. I needn't debate with you any further. I thought I remember that you said you wanted to stop.
Advantage dealer:
New design (2002)
More hp 4 & 6 cylinder
Initial supply
Advantage Buyer:
Honda & Toyota want your business too.
Nissan wants to sell 190,000 units first year.
Dealers will compete against each other.
Many ways to buy:
Get invoice price off web go in and haggle.
Go through internet car buying service.
Do your own fax blitz.
Wait for hype is over and look for sale ads.
How much to pay?
Invoice + 4% 5% 6% 7%
Pay Sticker
Depending how people will buy this car will tell me what I can expect to pay.
I still say there is a lot of obsessing here that is just wasted energy - the prices will match the current Accord, model for model and feature for feature, within a couple of hundred bucks, more or less. After the initial arm-waving, the discounting will begin, and the market will find its natural level, within a few hundred $ of invoice just like everything else out there in this category. Relax, people.