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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier
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Comments
On the other hand, for the $, I think the PRO is a better value, especially for me, as I do most of my drivig in the city, so I am not annoyed so much at the noise. If the cars were selling for the same $, or $1500 more for the SiR, I'd pick the Honda, but w/a $5.000 difference, it's hard to justify paying $100 more per month for 4 years.
Cheers!
Dinu
PS: Glad we can see both sides of the coin.
Dinu
You guys pay crazy prices up there in Canada. Here in the US we paid $15300 for the Protege and we paid $16,000 for the SI. The Pro was at 0.0% though while the SI is 5.25%. Although now Honda has 1.9%.
LOL, gas mileage is another story. I think it's simple physics; use the power, use the fuel. My take is to use good gas and not penny pinch; for me that means Amoco, Exxon, or Texaco. The cool thing about the Si is the torque allows you cruise at low rpm and shift less in the city or to run and gun, as you like. I've yet to get the mileage Anony gets, but I think it's my heavy foot and short trips.
I might just have to get another one. I need to replace my old 89 BMW 535i, AKA "The Black Hole," before in implodes . . . again.
If anyone out there lives in an area where you can get a 2003 Si under $17k (legitimately), you could lease one for less than $180/month tax included with no money down (just first month and usual fees). For that price I would definitely get another one, but I think they're still above invoice in my neck of the woods (Pittsburgh, PA).
Did a 4 hour mini road trip in the new Si yesterday and it was very nice. Love those seats! And for a small engine it just seems to have torque all over the place. It does rev a bit high on the highway, but it has a nice smooth sound. We are just finishing up the last month of a lease on a 2000 Acura Integra GS-R, and the Civic Si just seems better in almost every way. The GS-R might have a fraction of a second 0 to 60, but to get that fraction you have to beat the snot out of it.
Although, after driving the GS-R for three years, I have found myself occassionally bumping into the rev limiter on the Si. It just feels like it could go at least another 600-700 RPMs without any additional stress to the engine. It makes me think that the Si could actually out-accelerate the GS-R if that rev limiter was, say, 7700 RPM.
Does anyone know, can you hit 60 in second gear in the Si before the limiter cuts off the fuel?
Still loving it more and more with each drive . . . and uh oh, so's the wife.
Does anyone know, can you hit 60 in second gear in the Si before the limiter cuts off the fuel?"
You can get a hondata reprogrammed computer and it will bump up the output to 180 hp and give you a higher redline.
http://www.hondata.com/k20a3civicsirelease.html
The most missed feature from the Si will be the seats. The seats were fantastic! Honda service was much better overall than VW service and I'll miss that too but I spent way too much time at the Honda dealer with Si problems. My previous experience with VW's has been excellent and much better than my recent Honda experience. Yeah, I know that is not normal, VW must be lucky for me.
Anyway, I wish everyone the best of luck with their Si's. All I need to do now is figure out what to do with my Si mudguards that I never installed.
Was driving to school today and noticed the throttle pedal not going all the way to the ground. All the way to school couldn't understand why my pedal seemed to be stopping halfway down, and the car was hardly accelerating at all. I was a little late for school so was forced to forget it in order to get to class on time. After school I come down, and a friend notices the generic floor mats i'd picked up from BJ's (best store in the world ;-)) Then it hits me, the mat had bunched up under the throttle and inhibited it from being able to be fully depressed. Lol. Boy was I relieved. Hehe and river, i'm thinking the cars bringing me a lotta grins. :-).
Mopar, I'm gonna miss your Si. I do hope you like the TDI.
Happy motoring!
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
I guess this does confirm my suspicion that the Si's engine is capable of more. The engine on the GS-R feels really stretched, but by comparison, the Si's engine feels like it can sprint and yawn at the same time.
It makes me think that if Honda had just made these little tweaks (without really putting any more money into the vehicle), the car would be able to do 0-60 in about 7 seconds. That and some bigger stock wheels and sportier tires, and the journalists wouldn't be grumbling about it so much.
I think the bad press it's gotten is mostly unfounded though. I had been considering a GTI or Toyota Matrix XRS, but the value, reliability, and quality of materials in the Si ended up making it an easy choice. I still like those other cars, and we might end up getting one for our second car, but the Si was just the best car for the money. The Matrix wins for pure functionality, and the GTI is easily the fastest, but the engine/transmission combo on the Matrix is nothing extraordinary, and VW's reliabilty issues are a little scary.
I filled it up as soon as the low fuel light came on, and the tank only took 9.4 gallons. That leaves 3.8 gallons (13.2 gallon total capacity) of reserve fuel after the light goes on. Is that right? It seems like an overly-generous reserve. One could easily drive 100 miles after the light comes on.
Sounds like you've just described the Focus SVT. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the Si - I would choose it as the "safe" bet over an SVT. But, the SVT has the performance edge, but questionable releability. If one is prepared to pay extra for the Si to have "SVT performance", that extra amount, I believe, would pay for the additional maintenence costs of the SVT.
Thanks
Dave
Ok just kidding
Dinu
Anyway, the Focus reliability is just too scary for me to take the plunge. I also wanted to lease a car, and it's not usually a good idea to lease a vehicle like a Ford that has poor resale value.
I drove a Focus ZX3 in 2001, and I was very impressed with its handling and interior room. I was just about to get one, but then all the sh__ hit the fan with the recalls and so forth, and I thanked my lucky stars I didn't make that blunder.
I still am considering a VW GTI for our second car, which has almost as many reliability issues as the Focus. It would have to be a great deal, though. But the GTI has a 4 year warranty, excellent resale value, and top crash test scores for its class (Focus coupe has frightening rear passenger side impact ratings--and I might have to put a baby seat back there pretty soon, so no way). The GTI also has a very nice engine with a lot of torque throughout the rev range. I'm also hoping that VW has dealt with their biggest reliability issues (window regulators and coil packs), and that 2003s will not be as problem-ridden as 2001s and 2002s.
To Dudka - You'll need to continue this discussion about mud flaps with Moparbad via email. Okay? Our Town Hall policy, on solicitation, forbids discussion of private sales in these discussions. Thanks!
To Everyone - For further clarification on these matters, please refer to our Membership Agreement Guidelines. Also, feel free to email me if you have any question/comments regarding our policies. Thanks.
And back to the subject of the Honda Civic Si / Sir! ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Wagons Boards
2. And the main point for this post. Anyone get the hondata chip upgrade. I'm thinking about that in the distant (read: probably not gonna happen) future. Regardless, are there any adverse effects of this upgrade? Like mpg....engine life....etc. Thanks.
Not sure if I am allowed to post this or not but here is what I believe to be a photo of the SI I crashed back in July. It has the same mileage, same damage, and tinted windows just like mine used to. Also has splash guards like mine did. There is no VIN so I can't confirm it but I am 99.9% sure.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K208413B3
What _are_ you doin', boy? ;-)
You do know that there are more than two gears, right? You need to shift into third, fourth, and fifth on occasion, too. It’s fun. Just move that lever right on over into those other notches. It’s good for you. Really. ;-)
You one of those guys resting your left foot on the brake pedal? The clutch, maybe? (I was going to suggest maybe you've been driving around with the handbrake engaged, but then I realized that the Si handbrake is so impotent that, well. . .) Honda gives you a dead pedal for your left foot. It’s good; much better than using those other pedals as footrests.
And about the throttle. . . it’s not an ON/OFF switch, you know. There’s all that in-between space to explore. . .
Seriously . . . that's surprisingly low mpg. If my aging brain serves me here, you've been having this problem from the beginning, right? You and I both got 16-17 mpg from our Mustang GTs. I'm hard pressed to understand how one might get 21 mpg from an '02 Si without _trying_ to. You don’t have some honking great trailer home permanently attached to the backside of your Si, do you?
Do you suppose the brain-box in your Si is malfunctioning? It's occurred to me that even a minor malfunction might wreak havoc in performance and fuel economy. After all, the cpu now controls the fuel, ignition timing, and, in the Si, the valve _timing_, too.
I wonder if you were to replace the cpu, whether you'd get better fuel economy?
By the way, you mentioned that you always buy name-brand fuel. You are aware, are you not, that fuel is fuel, basically? The federal regulations, I think, require only a minor percentage of fuel from, say, AMOCO, at an AMOCO station be in the tanks? It can be anything --- and regularly is. The actual fuel you pump at your friendly AMOCO station could be 80% mystery fuel and only 20% AMOCO, or something like that. Entirely legal. It's true. I saw it on TV! <heh> No, really, it’s a true fact. And not a problem, as I understand it.
Actually, as I think of it, you'd written that you use premium fuel. That could be the source of your problem --- it's old and stale. Maybe. Are you the only one who buys premium at that station?
And that raises another issue (unrelated to your problems, though): Fuel from the premium pumps may not be premium at all, but just regular 87 octane. It's true. Our '88 Mustang GT was a very effective "octane tester" --- no knock sensor connected to a computer on that machine. It pinged mercilessly on regular fuel. I was afraid my pistons would melt down. A local Shell dealer sold "premium" fuel that caused severe pinging in that engine --- identical to regular fuel. When we filled up with premium at a high-snoot station that regularly serviced Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and other cars, the engine purred.
The Ag Dept., I think, is responsible for enforcing this sort of thing, and they haven’t got nearly the resources or manpower to do it effectively. For the gas station owners, it’s a license to steal. Do they all? No. But a lot do. Greed rules. Alas.
Modern engines make it much easier. To steal, I mean. The cpu is connected to a knock sensor. If the engine pings, the cpu dials back the ignition timing to cure the ping. So. . . the driver never notices. Performance is reduced, but most drivers will never notice. You’d need a stopwatch, and careful testing, to discern the difference. Who’s going to catch the thieving gas station owner? His victims don’t even know they’re being cheated!
The other issue, apart from fraud, is that your particular gas stations may not sell much premium and it just gets old from sitting in the tanks waiting for “river” to stop by. Old fuel doesn’t work well, as I understand it. Maybe you might try shopping at a station that sells _mostly_ premium.
First, though, I’d try regular fuel from a very popular station --- that means fresh fuel, because they’re constantly replenishing the tanks.
Thoughts to ponder, yes?
Actually, I run 87 octane; and, no, I don't left foot the brakes. Most of my drivng is the worst sort - short, stop and go, etc. LOL, when I do use some of them weird upper gears, the milage improves; and most of the time I get 24-25 mpg. This last tank was the worst.
Actually I have thought about the ECU, and I've thought about that Hondata chip. I've figured the real prob is my consistency, both in driving and fueling; I'm not confident I'm getting a tank full to the same level each fill up, so there's that hitch.
And - I've usually gotten pretty variable mileage - that 'Stang (5.0 LX) and a '99 Si, which speaks to variable driver friskiness.
And, finally, LOL, the most consistent milage I ever got was in a auto tranny Protege (not picked out for me), which discourgaged friskiness with it's reluctance to git.
So, the mpg gremlin is pretty clearly me. At the least, I'm planning to see if I can find a way to get a consistent fill up before I dig into the car.
Hate to see that car go. Loved the little thing to death. But a deal too good to pass up presented itself in the form of a 95 GS300 for $5500 and Gee was dying to have it so we got rid of the Civic. I will now take possession of our 03 Accord though so I am not toooo depressed .. just a bit sad ... well alot sad when I actually saw it again but out of sight/out of mind right?
But like I told Gee ... if we miss it that much we can always buy a 2003 and by the end of this year I wouldn't be surprised to see 0.0% on them either.
Do you sell the cars privately?
Do you sell the cars to Carmax?
Do you lose a significant amount of money to get rid of the vehicle (I hope not)
Any tips/feedback would be much appreciated. If you prefer, you can send me an email at crikey@bellsouth.net.
> LOL! The best I can say is 'LOL'.
Thank you for saying so. It always pleases me to know I helped put a smile on someone’s face. :-)
> Actually, I run 87 octane
Ahh. . . sorry about the error. I obviously confused you with another contributor. My fifty-something brain is a sieve these days.
So far, we’ve averaged 26.77 mpg, using 400.6 gallons of fuel over 10,723 miles. We keep a “Gas Book” in the glovebox and log every gallon pumped, so this figure is accurate and reliable. Conditions: Conservative driving; a preponderance of highway miles mixed with a small amount of 25 mph shopping-trip-stuff in our small village. On the interstates we generally cruise around 70 mph, with occasional bursts to 85 mph when out in the passing lane --- to hurry up and get out of the way of the faster guys. (Is that Anony in my mirror bearing down on me at 90 mph+? Let’s just pick it up a bit to get out of her way and not balk her unnecessarily. In my world, that’s the way it’s done. :-)
All things considered, I’m satisfied with the fuel economy.
I suspect that the marked improvement in low rpm torque afforded by the ingenious I-VTEC comes at the expense of slightly reduced fuel economy despite our best efforts to keep the rpms down in routine daily driving. Unlike so many drivers, we don’t treat our commutes as a repetitive sequence of drag races strung together from here to our destination.
The ’02 Si pulls very strongly from 2500 rpm up, unlike our previous Civics, the ’99 Si in particular. The ’99 required that you drive it like you were mad at it in order to extract its potential. That’s fun, but made for entirely too much commotion for routine driving. We averaged slightly better fuel economy in that model, rarely exploiting its potential. In fact, in the ’99, I suspect that below 4000 rpm, the engine performance was little different from a regular EX.
The ’02 Si is just what I wanted; it’s as though Honda read my mind.
YMMV of course.
> And - I've usually gotten pretty variable mileage - that 'Stang (5.0 LX)
> and a '99 Si, which speaks to variable driver friskiness.
You’ve had interesting cars. These three cars of yours were the same choices we made, too. Our ’88 Mustang was a GT, but that’s essentially the same mechanically as your LX. We, too, owned a blue ’99 Si. And now, of course, we have the same ’02 Si in common. These have all been “performance bargains,” offering great driving fun for one’s dollar, don’t you think? Excellent “Friskiness Factor” in these cars, if I may borrow your word.
> And, finally, LOL, the most consistent milage I > ever got was in a auto tranny Protege (not
> picked out for me), which discourgaged
> friskiness with it's reluctance to git.
“ reluctance to git.” That’s funny. I like that. And I know what you mean; I’ve driven slugs like that before and it never ceases to amaze me that people actually buy and live with those boring cars. “If only you knew what you’re missing,” I think to myself. But, each to his own. . .
By the way, our other car is an ’02 Mazda Protege5, with a manual gearbox, of course. It scoots right along. Fun car; handles like a go-kart. Rather different from the Protégé you drove, I suspect. Drive one if you get the chance; I bet you’ll like it.
> At the least, I'm planning to see if I can find > a way to get a consistent fill up before I dig > into the car.
Do you maintain an on-going log of your fuel used?
The Pro5 was on my short list. My '99 was blue, too. 'Stang was red/red.
It's great to meet you, Kauai.
More later,
River
2. We have sold a few to Carmax. If nothing else they are a good source of what we might be able to get for the car.
3. We never buy a car because we have to have it. When we buy a car it's because it's already a car we are interested in and we are getting a deal that's too good to pass up. Therefore, we are not usually in a position where we are STUCK in the car.
Hope that helped. If you have any more detailed questions feel free to e-mail me.
Problems:
1. One squeaky noise coming from the steering column .. tracked it down to the wires underneath and cinched them down ... no more squeak.
2. The car rolled down an incline twice. Both times the parking brake was not pulled completely up (more like 3/4) and the car was not in gear.
Positives:
1. Gear box was one of the best I have ever used and I have driven alot of cars.
2. Seats were awesome.
3. Loved the engine's torque and smoothness even though it revved at 4000 RPM at 80. Way to go balance shafts!
4. Nice stereo
5. AC worked great.
6. Safety, safety, safety.
7. Loved the steering wheel too.
8. Like the fact it was a hatch and had a rear window wiper.
9. Loved the way the front end looked with the fog lights.
10. Good driving position
11. Has a very nice subtantial and solid feel to it. Felt like it would run forever.
Negatives
1. Not as "performance-oriented" as the 99-00 SI.
2. Coulda used an extra gear for highway cruising.
If I had it all to over again I would not hesitate to buy another SI. I loved the car, loved driving it, and I even loved looking at it. It was perfect for our uses.
“I hate to barge in on this ”
Nonsense. Come right in! Welcome! :-)
“ but it is nice to see people my own age talking ”
Yes!
But where are these Old People you mentioned? I haven’t seen any around here. It would be good to welcome them, too. So, where are they?
_You_ can’t be old, of course. I mean, I’m five years older than you. So, if I were in the sixth grade, that means. . . you’re just a first grader! <LOL!>
Remember that? ;-)
“ about something besides retirement plans and wife #3.”
What’s wife #3 up to? Anything interesting? Never mind, don’t answer that. I’m just being outlandish. :-)
“I will be 51 in a couple months and still drive a Civic SI HB and have been for almost 20 years.”
A ’93 Si, I take it?
Our very first Honda was a red ’91 Civic Si hatchback. I really enjoyed that car.
We put a MOMO steering wheel on it. For those unfamiliar with these old cars, they did not have airbags, so one could buy aftermarket steering wheels to install. I am so pleased that our new ’02 Si has a steering wheel almost exactly like the one I purchased for the ’91. It even has red stitching, just like my old MOMO Monte Carlo.
I’ve really been missing those wheels since the manufacturers installed airbags, making steering wheel replacement impractical and imprudent.
That ’91 Si was the last car we had that employed manual steering --- no power. It had great road feel. Those were super cars. In fact, we went to our local autocross events for the first time just last year, and I was not surprised to see a number of entrants driving modified versions of these older Si’s. One of them was a woman who is a national champion. Even today, these cars remain competitive.
“Before that I drove MG Midgets ”
Midgets and Sprites! Yes! I don’t see many of those around anymore.
“ ( I had 2, one for parts, one for everything else).”
Well, of _course_ you did! Just part of the charm of owning British sports cars, right? :-)
Right about here is where we should share a few Lucas jokes, don’t you think?
“Just got two internet quotes from 2 dealers in the Tampa area for '03 SI's and they try and make it sound like 18.5K PLUS tax is a good deal.
(The following rambling isn’t directed towards you, Jim. I’m just sharing my thoughts about some of the oft-repeated --- and unchallenged --- assertions about the ’02 Civic Si that I’ve read in this group over the past six months or so.)
Arguably, it _is_ a good deal. What else are you going to buy for $18.5K that offers what the Si gives you? I’m not suggesting that you actually pay that, since, of course, better deals can probably be had. But those better deals are a consequence of the oddly poor sales of this model, not because the car is not inherently worth the MSRP.
I have yet to hear a reasoned argument for just why this new Si is “overpriced” at $19,400.
Few complained about the ’99 Si at around $18K out-the-door. This new Si is a far more refined and sophisticated piece of machinery. And the increase in price over the previous Si is modest, to say the least. I’m at a loss to understand the complaints about the price of this car. And I should add that I put my money where my mouth is, selling our ’99 Si with just over 50k easy miles on it, to replace it with the ’02 Si.
If buyers want to buy a Focus SVT at that price, I say, “Go ahead. Better you than me.”
The Ford’s no Honda. Maybe someday, but not today. For those who fail to understand what I mean, buy the Focus. Come talk to me in a year.
Having said that, I need to say as well that I like Fords. I’ve owned a number, beginning with my wild 1970 Ford Mustang Boss 302. The REAL one. (For you youngsters reading this: I bought my new Boss 302 for . . . less than $3400. Yep. I didn’t omit a zero. Isn’t that something? :-) Today’s equivalent would be the SVT Cobra Mustang, which runs around, what, $36,000 or something?)
For those who just have to have the SVT Focus, I understand. The ownership dues are just going to be a bit steeper over there than here with the Honda Si, which is itself slightly suspect, after all, despite the fact that it has been built in the British plant for a number of years now.
The Si is _not_ a brand new car as some posters here have suggested. It is new to the USA, but not a brand new design. I do suspect that we may still be beta testers, nevertheless. But I “knew” that going in, and accepted the terms, realizing that it might not be up to the quality standards we’ve come to expect and enjoy with the American/Canadian-built Civics.
And the wheels complaints? For heaven’s sake. Honda put “tolerable” (and relatively inexpensive) wheels on the car in anticipation that many, if not most, buyers would swap them out for aftermarket wheels and tires. How would the buyers feel if they were removing really expensive wheels and tires to replace them with something “different” to personalize their car? They’d be complaining bitterly about having paid so much for the originals. . . The Honda folks must be shaking their heads, thinking they just can’t win for losing.
Fuel economy? Someone recently complained that the Si had no better fuel economy than some nondescript and boring American sedan. Uh huh. So what?
That same boring American sedan has better fuel economy figures than a Porsche Carrera, too.
What ELSE can one buy that offers what the Si gives you, but yields significantly better fuel economy? One cannot fool Mother Nature, the Laws of Physics, or get a major leg up on the Honda engineers. So? What’s the name of this amazing car that is so superior to the Si?
Comparably priced.
Show it to me.
If fuel economy figures are at the head of a buyer’s features list, then what on earth are they doing looking at performance cars like Si’s?
Jim! Hi! You still here? Wake up. ;-) Moving right along, then. . .
Jim wrote:
“What I have been waiting for is for Honda to come out with something to compete with the Miata, except something I can fit in.”
No kidding. The steering wheel on both the Miata and the S2000 is practically sitting on top of the driver’s thighs. There’s virtually no room for the hands to clear the legs, making driving quickly a wee bit of a problem. If you have pencils for thighs. . . you’ll feel at home.
“An S2000 for over 30K is not it. Maybe Honda hasn't noticed that Mazda sold a TON of inexpensive sports cars or the millions of their own 92-95 hatchbacks that had 4 different models starting at like 12K. Guess I'll wait til the '04s debut then the '03 SI's will be selling for a lot less. my $0.02.”
And an excellent $0.02-worth it was my young friend! ;-)
Why not just go ahead and test-drive the Si? How can it hurt? ;-) Then you can come back and talk some more. <heh>
P.S. Send those Old People around when you come across them, won’t you? I’d like to hear their contributions, too. ;-)
Yes, yes, yes - Honda make a low tech, cheapo two seater. 1200 lbs, 80 bhp, $10K!
Jim - dunno if there's enough dealer cash anymore to drop Si prices below those 18.5K quotes you're getting. If you wanna expand your net shopping to the Memphis area, I'll lend a hand with look-see, airport pick-up, etc.
Thanks.
Regarding price... I wouldn't pay $18,500 for one of these cars in the current marketplace unless there wasn't another dealer in my area and I just had to have one. One of my local dealers had them going for about $17K last weekend, and another one gave me an internet quote of $17,822, which is the theoretical invoice price. For whatever reason, Civics in general are NOT selling. Too much competition.
Plus, I think everyone is still stuck in the SUV craze. Gosh, isn't the Honda Element hideous? Doesn't take much design expertise to develop a shoe box on wheels. Some people say it's like a mini Hummer H2... well, duh, the H2 is ugly too. Not that the new Si is gorgeous. In fact, I think it's a bit weird looking myself, but I guess I'm partial to German cars, and it would probably grow on me over time.
Incidentally, I thought our '92 Si was "different" looking when I bought it, and my wife fondly called it "the sh!tbox." I guess that would make a new Si version II :-)
I still haven't decided if I want to get one of these new Si's though, the '92 has been 100% reliable and no matter how hard I drive it I always get 32-35 mpg. But alas, I'm tired of it... so maybe I will get a new one... probably Vivid Blue.
Ciao,
Tom in Seattle
Anyway, if I decide to get a new Si I won't be waiting for the Type R, as much as I'd like to have one. The price will be too high and the cut-rate deals on price and financing we have now most surely won't be around forever.
If you were Honda, and you saw how poorly the current Si is selling... would you risk bringing the Type R here? I don't think so.
Cheers,
Tom in Seattle
Also, the Element is cool. I saw a green one yesterday and a silver one today. Man, if those things had carpet ......
My old 99 Accord EX 5-speed and my 2000 SI's used the VTEC system and there was a definite change in engine performance after you hit about 4000 RPM. In my 02 SI (RIP) and our 03 Accord there is no rush of power anymore. It's just smooth and constant and they are alot easier to drive day-to-day because of the extra power down low.
I have a feeling WOT means "wide-open throttle", but I could be wrong.
That's not true. Civic sales are up this year. Now the SI that's another story.
Ok, before I get too into bashing your selection, please tell me why you wanted this car so bad.
Anonymousposts-
Is your Accord Coupe a manual?