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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier
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Comments
I tend to look at my car for what I DO have instead of what I wish they had added. The biggest error Honda made was thinking they could sell 15,000 of them when no other pocket rocket was trying for more than 7500.
I've owned 3 EP's, so I obviously like the product Honda offered.
Read a few posts back, I think he crashed one.
As far as the rims go, I am not sure if people here refer to just the rim or rim and tire combo. The 16 inch rims on the 2004 Si are larger, but the rim and tire combination is almost the same (205/55-16)as the 15 inch rim and tire combination on the 2002-2003 Si (195/60-15). So, yes the 16 inch tire offers greater cross sectional contact patch, but it still has the almost same circumference (76 in vs 78 in.). But the 16 inch rim has doubled the effective rotational mass of the wheel and tire by bringing most of the wheel/tire weight father away from the center. Big wheels are just "Bling Bling", and nothing more. If you want bigger contact patch, get 215/55-15 tires on your stock rims and you will be fine. In fact, you will have greater contact patch with minimal speedometer error.
So we traded the second SI for a GS300. Gee loved the GS until we moved 20 miles further away from our jobs and gas prices started shooting up. So when he got ready to sell the GS he decided he wanted another SI .. this time in blue.
A little over a year and 23,000 miles later we still have it. With the exception of 3 cars this is the longest we have kept anything since 1996.
At 205/55, the SI is right in the middle of the spectrum of sidewall height for sporty cars today. In fact, the BMW 3-series uses this profile as its base set-up right now (as just one of many examples). Lastly, being a 205/55/16 (back to the Honda) rather than a 205/55/15 improves handling.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Interesting post about how the mass of the rim is further from the center on larger wheels. The original Mini had 10" rims. That's right, about the size of wheels on a riding mower. And that thing handled like a go-cart because it was about the size of one.
Generally, I agree, a smaller wheel AND tire helps handling, but not sales. Larger wheels are more stylish and sell cars. At the other end we have the Civic VP (Value Package) with its ancient 14" rim and even more ancient .70 high profile S-rated (lowest) tires. A wheel/tire combo long since forgotten by the Civic's competiton. That's real "value" I guess.
At 205/55, the SI is right in the middle of the spectrum of sidewall height for sporty cars today. In fact, the BMW 3-series uses this profile as its base set-up right now (as just one of many examples). Lastly, being a 205/55/16 (back to the Honda) rather than a 205/55/15 improves handling.
I think tires do have some role in handling. I hate to do that, but SIZE DOES NOT MATTER. It is the rubber compound and the contact patch that matters. But most importantly suspension geometry is what at play. You can get a bone jarring ride in 70 sidewall ratio tire if it is a runflat from Dunlop or michelin. Higher inflation will do the same.
You can have a 19 inch Kumho tire and a 15 inch Yokohama tire perform the same. Only because Yokohama has better rubber compound.
Also, wider tires are not good for winter. In winter driving you want the smallest contact patch to generate more pressure per square inch. Wider tire will spread the weight over larger area and will not be able to provide the grip you are looking for. So, yes, 14 inch Blizzaks is what is on my car in the winter. I have yet to spin out or lose control.
Speaking of the competition, the Toyota Camry used a 195/70/14 on the base Camry until 2001. Same reason. The Corolla is direct competition for the Civic, and it used a like combo until 2002. The Dodge Neon still uses a 175/70/14 as its standard tire. The Chevy Cavalier's standard tire is a 195/70/14.
Far from being "A wheel/tire combo long since forgotten by the Civic's competiton.", it seems to be in heavy use by many of Civic's competitors! :-)
blueiedgod: I am trying hard to follow your point here: originally it seemed you were speaking directly to the tire size of the SI, but now you are saying "SIZE DOES NOT MATTER".
I was originally trying to counter your point on size alone. But I must partially agree that size is not the only factor that matters. It DOES MATTER, but other things about the suspension, wheels, and tires also matter. In re-reading your post, I think maybe I missed your point and that you were referring to wheel size alone. If so, then I agree that 15s would be big enough from a performance point of view, and that bigger low profile tires on 15s would improve handling more than same-size tires on a bigger rim. But people like bigger rims - they look nice and they sell, and professional criticism of the '03 SI was harsh and centered mainly on the fact that the rim was so small. Honda merely responded to that.
My '02 Celica was a sharper handler than either my current car or the SI, and it had 15" rims, I believe the tires were 205/55s IIRC.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
General Motors said that many times during the 70s and 80s. They also had droves of loyal fans, like Honda, but they couldn't save their market share slide. Honda should not be complacent.
If all Honda wants to do is "get the job done", then it succeeds with the VP. But the competition also "gets the job done" with more features and performance than the VP for very little extra cost. The base Mazda 3 comes to mind. The fact that some Edmunds' readers find the VP's features in such company as base Neons and Cavaliers should be a wake up call to Honda.
You can compare a IS300 to a Civic but that doesn't make them comparable.
"The fact that some Edmunds' readers find the VP's features in such company as base Neons and Cavaliers should be a wake up call to Honda."
It was perfect! Apples to apples, my friend. Civic VP is a $12K car all day long, the same price as those other cars I mentioned. And there is absolutely no question as to which I would buy if that were the limit of my budget...
The Mazda 3 is a nice car that is $1500 more than that even with the 2.0, and if you have $14K to spend, you are into a Civic LX with the bigger rims (or a Corolla, or a Focus, or...)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What kind of fuel mileage are people seeing in the real world with their Si's?
What about insurance? I live in a city with tons of wreckless tuner kids, and I worry that insurance will be high.
Finally, are people still paying invoice or below for Si's, even in major cities?
Many thanks in advance.
The car is supposed to be difficult to steal, and it hasn't been very popular, so insurance has been fairly reasonable (for me)
I bought mine in 2002, and I don't see them advertised anymore, so I don't know what people are paying.
I get mid-20s mpg driving in New York City and northern New Jersey. I would expect a little higher in a normal city. On the highway, I get 30 mpg driving in the mid-70 mph range.
In Hudson County, NJ (the car theft capital of the U.S.), I'm paying about $1570 a year with GEICO. I don't know if an RSX would be any better on that count, though I suspect a base RSX might escape the random vandalism and badge stealing that's afflicted my Si.
Insurance in Louisiana is absurdly high for a 2003 Civic SI ($2,000/year - about $600 higher than a 2003 Toyota Tacoma as a reference - see earlier remarks in this forum- Sept-Oct). Price the base model Acura RSX and Honda Civic SI with your insurance broker before purchase.
If the 2004 SI's are still on the lot, the final price should be about $2,500 less than the base model RSX. Otherwise, get the RSX for comfort and the extra warranty coverage (4 y - 50,000 vs 3 y - 36,000)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What kind of fuel mileage are people seeing in the real world with their Si's?
What about insurance? I live in a city with tons of wreckless tuner kids, and I worry that insurance will be high.
Finally, are people still paying invoice or below for Si's, even in major cities?
Many thanks in advance.
Just for the record, base RSX and Si are 95% the same car. There should not be too much difference. The Si has the Type S final drive which cuts into its fuel economy, but gives it a little more pep than base RSX with the same engine.
I notice that my city fuel economy in the Si is better than highway. It is probably due to the fact that highway driving for me is 70-80 mph, which puts the engine at 4000 RPM.
The insurance will depend on your driving record. Either way, you will pay more for the Honda/Acura than Cavalier/Focus. Although, my insurance is only $50 more a year than my girlfriend's Focus. The best way to find out the insurance cost is to get a qoute, either from your current company, or any of the numerous internet qoute sites. The new Si has immobilizer and there only have been one intance on the "other" forum when the Si was stolen. But the guy had spare key in the somewhere in the car.
As far as the price goes, see if you can find a left over 2004. I bought a left over 2002 in January 2003 for a good deal ($14,500, it was advertized in the paper for $15,000). But Honda has cut the incentives on the Si. They have also cut the importation as well to stabilize the prices.
You may want to check out websites that are specializing in the new Si, which happends to have a body code EP and is a HATCH
They expect 200 hp at least just to stay on par with the new GTI and the Ion Redline/SRT-4. There is a lot more power in the hot hatch (hot compact maybe?) marketplace these days.
Apparently the '02-05 SI hatch is the worst-selling Honda of all time (mentioned in the article). There has been no other model so quick to have dealer cashback. I think "hot hatches" have gone through an enormous transformation since the early 80s. VW has realized it, and they hope to regain lost sales by finally updating the GTI to a modern standard for '06. With the SI, Honda also tried to emulate its very successful late 80s hot hatches, but the formula for a successful hot hatch today is different from what it was back then. You need more power and top-rate handling (including commensurate rims, tires, and suspension).
The SI is a sweet little car, I almost got one, but it is not on a par with other $20K hot hatches in stock form. It compares very favorably with the tC, but that of course is a $16.5K car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It should not be called Si. Si's always been a hatch except for the 99-2000 coupe. They should just call it an EX-S or something.
They expect 200 hp at least just to stay on par with the new GTI and the Ion Redline/SRT-4. There is a lot more power in the hot hatch (hot compact maybe?) marketplace these days.
Since the RSX-S got a 10 hp boost this year, they will probably stick the K20A1 into it from the current RSX. I doubt Honda would the Si have almost as much power as the RSX-S. I would say, realistically, we are looking at 180 Hp.
You need more power and top-rate handling (including commensurate rims, tires, and suspension).
I think Si's handling in the current form is still superior to SRT, and on par with GTI. It may not have a 180 hp engine, but the driving dynamics are very similar to VW's. The 1.8T has one problem, it surges after 3000 RPM. Although it is fun to make your tires chirp on 2nd to 3rd gear shift, it is not fun when you need traction. I had some difficulty adjusting to the un-even power coming from the 1.8T. It is very lethargic at take off, and then surges as the turbo spools up, above 3000 RPM. At least with the Si's i-VTEC the power is smooth and constant through out the RPM range. It took me a little while to adjust to un-Honda-like low 6800 RPM redline.
The SI is a sweet little car, I almost got one, but it is not on a par with other $20K hot hatches in stock form. It compares very favorably with the tC, but that of course is a $16.5K car.
This is the best part of the current Si. There are only a few people who paid full sticker for the Si. I waited and paid $14.5K for it with 8 miles on the odo. Coupled with 1.9% I pay less for the 2002 Si, than I did for the 1999 Civic coupe.
And, if you haven't already heard, Honda Canada is pulling the plug on the SiR altogether...citing
"currency fluctuations"...what a joke...the Can$ is at it's highest level in years, up from the mid-sixties (versus the US$) to almost the mid-eighty cent level....if anything, they should be able to price the SiR LOWER....or keep it the same and make more $$$ off it. The fact is, you can get a Mazda3 with 160hp, 17" wheels and tires and even leather inside (not to mention the more useful 5 door vs. 3 door guise) for thousands less than an SiR. Currency fluctuations my butt..
the Sir was simply too little car for too much $$$
Honda is not as popular in Europe as it is in the US. I think VW and Pegeout are the kings of hatches in Europe.
The Civic hatch in Europe is also available as 5 door, and a less potent 115 hp and a diesel. Europeans are also more likley to buy a hatch over a 4 door. The hatchbacks in Europe are like SUV's are in US.
http://www.channel4.com/4car/gallery/spy-shots-2004/H/honda-civic- .html
Hard to imagine a type-R based on that. Harder to imagine the coupe and sedan looking like it, but there's speculation that like in the past, all the Civics will look more like each other.
Actually, there is logic to Honda's trim levels. It saves them on production cost, and provides a product that serves 95 percentile in the bell shape distribution. Other manufacturer's are adopting the trim level packaging over "ala carte" options.
CX - very bottom of the entry level, no power steering, nothing power, prewired for radio, only 2 speakers, power brakes, no VTEC, low HP, automatic optional (power steering included with auto).
DX - entry level, no power options, but has power steering, come with AM/FM radio, automatic optional.
VP - DX with automatic.
LX - mainstream car, power windows/locks, AM/FM/Cassette, same engine as CX/DX.
GX - LX with natural gas burning engine.
HX/VX - lean burning VTEC, similar to iVTEC on the Si and RSX, but with less power and better fuel economy. CVT automatic is optional. Power windows/locks, alloys wheels.
EX - Adds sunroof, ABS, CD to the LX's options and comes with VTEC engine.
Hybrid - Similar packaging to EX, except the sunroof, but comes with 144 D cell batteries, 1 gas lean burning VTEC engine and 1 electric motor. CVT is the optional auto.
SE - EX with leather. (Although, last generation accord SE was an LX with auto, and sunroof)
Si - the top of the line Civic with no automatic option available, the most powerful iVTEC engine in the Civic line up, except the RSX-S. Comes with ABS with EBD, stiffer suspension and other goodies.
Not all trims are available in all areas of the US
GX is always natural gas, HX/VX are always lean-burn, gas-saver models.
Over the years, they offered a super-stripper hatchback version called the CX that sold around $10K, even in the year 2000, the last time they offered that. For the CX, Honda made it seem like a special favor that they had included seats and a steering wheel. No CX right now. And VP's and SE's have meant various things over the years, so it is impossible to generalize them. Right now, the Civic VP is a Civic DX with automatic, A/C, and CD added back in for a package savings price. Interestingly, for '05 there is no DX coupe, and the VP takes its place as the lowest rung on the scale. However, there IS a DX sedan.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In any case, no reason for us to worry about it, because there's not a chance it'll be sold here in that form.
You betcha. Paid $14,500 for brand spanking new Si in January of last year with 8 miles on the odo. Plus, financed all of it at 1.9% for 60 months, with only paying taxes and DMV fees in cash.
Would I have bought it for MSRP? Invoice? Most likeley not. But at that price it was hard to pass up. Even invoice is hard to swallow. But then again, I would not buy a compact for $20K. Impreza, Mazda 3, Focus, Mini are very close to $20K when optioned similarly to the "loaded to the gills" Si.
Honda does live up to its reputation of being "poor man's BMW" When compared directly with Mini Cooper S, it offers similar perfomance and road feel for much less, even at invoice. It may not have the "Chick appeal" Mini has, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Stock Michelins are very good for medium duty snow driving. Don't expect the Blizzak snow tire grip, but they are much better than other OEM tires on sporty cars out there. I drove in the 3 blizzards last year and had no problem getting traction. Don't forget, you have a stick, use it. The best snow cars are the stick shifted ones.
First time I've ever heard that.
But you are right about the Si not having "chick appeal". Most of those "chicks" prefer to drive Chevy Cavaliers and Pontiac Sunfires - why I don't know. All you have to do is crack open any auto magazine to read how dreadful they are. Hey! I just answered my own question.
Most people can only see the beauty on the exterior, we are a nation of very shallow people. Si is ugly, but you know sometimes a Pug is so ugly it is cute, so is the Si. And she makes up for the "door stop" styling in handling, perfomance and most importantly "creature comforts"
Cavaliers and Sunfires may have some styling, but the insides are still the 1983 design.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
As for the Mazda3 being "superior". Last I checked they didn't make a 2 door hatch 3.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Si is a nice car and I do like the styling. But selling a manual trans. 3 door hatchback in the land of automatic sedans was always gonna be a tough nut to crack.
I wish all the cars were manual. It would keep un-skilled drivers off the road. If one does not want to put time and effort into driving, maybe they should not be driving. Auto's should only be sold with a doctor's note to someone who physically can not shift (amputee's and such). There is no reason why a healthy person can not drive stick, except for being lazy. The latest surveys show that we are a nation of lazy bums who do not eat right, do not excersize, and allow ourselves to look the way we do. Don't laugh, it is all connected. Lazy people don't feel like eating right, don't feel like excersizing, don't feel like being active, don't feel like exerting any kind of work, including shifting their own gears.
Forcing manual transmissions onto the market would reduce the amount of accidents from people who feel that they have something better to do than drive when they are on the road (i.e. eating, talking on the telephone etc.). You should try driving in Louisiana. Everyone owns a 3 ton pickup with an automatic transmission and they never use turn signals for lane changes or turns. They don't even have to change gears and they fail to drive properly. If a trucker can negotiate 13 gears and drive impeccably, then the average citizen can negotiate 5 or 6 gears. Manual tranmissions would also reduce the weight of the vehicle (no torque converter) and give better control of rpms. This has the added benefit of improving the gas mileage of all the cars.