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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

1535456585963

Comments

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Honda DID keep the price down. They gave us a small hatch with 5 star crash tests, a very nice interior, a solid body structure for mods, and a 2.0 liter balance shafted engine that is vibration free. You can look at the wheels in that those that cared can upgrade and those that don't won't have to spend the extra $'s for 17" tires when 15's will get you where you need to go. There are many 1999-2000 SI's still riding on the stock 15's.

    I tend to look at my car for what I DO have instead of what I wish they had added. The biggest error Honda made was thinking they could sell 15,000 of them when no other pocket rocket was trying for more than 7500.

    I've owned 3 EP's, so I obviously like the product Honda offered.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    How do you go through so many?
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    How do you go through so many?

    Read a few posts back, I think he crashed one.

    As far as the rims go, I am not sure if people here refer to just the rim or rim and tire combo. The 16 inch rims on the 2004 Si are larger, but the rim and tire combination is almost the same (205/55-16)as the 15 inch rim and tire combination on the 2002-2003 Si (195/60-15). So, yes the 16 inch tire offers greater cross sectional contact patch, but it still has the almost same circumference (76 in vs 78 in.). But the 16 inch rim has doubled the effective rotational mass of the wheel and tire by bringing most of the wheel/tire weight father away from the center. Big wheels are just "Bling Bling", and nothing more. If you want bigger contact patch, get 215/55-15 tires on your stock rims and you will be fine. In fact, you will have greater contact patch with minimal speedometer error.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Our first Si was brought to an unfortunate death by a woman in a Grand AM. Once her insurance company paid that one off we bought another identical white 02 Si. Well that one seemed cursed. Within 6 months a rock cracked the windshield, a shopping car rolled into the rear quarter panel, it rolled down our driveway and hit our mailbox, and it rolled down a street into a construction zone when we were shopping for houses in a new subdivision.

    So we traded the second SI for a GS300. Gee loved the GS until we moved 20 miles further away from our jobs and gas prices started shooting up. So when he got ready to sell the GS he decided he wanted another SI .. this time in blue.

    A little over a year and 23,000 miles later we still have it. With the exception of 3 cars this is the longest we have kept anything since 1996.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    not sure I follow your logic there - the contact patch is ten millimeters wider (generally a GOOD thing for handling, particularly turns), while they maintained the same sidewall height (actually decreased it slightly). The sidewall height is one of the primary determinants in how comfortable the ride will be, and how well the car will turn. Make it tiny and turn on a dime (other factors being equal), while at the other end of the spectrum make it large and cushion every rock and pothole in the road (and protect the rim from said obstacles), but reduce the sharpness of the handling.

    At 205/55, the SI is right in the middle of the spectrum of sidewall height for sporty cars today. In fact, the BMW 3-series uses this profile as its base set-up right now (as just one of many examples). Lastly, being a 205/55/16 (back to the Honda) rather than a 205/55/15 improves handling.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mautomauto Member Posts: 75
    Are you comparing a BMW 3 Series to the Si? The BMW may have the same size tires, but I think that's where the similarities end :)

    Interesting post about how the mass of the rim is further from the center on larger wheels. The original Mini had 10" rims. That's right, about the size of wheels on a riding mower. And that thing handled like a go-cart because it was about the size of one.

    Generally, I agree, a smaller wheel AND tire helps handling, but not sales. Larger wheels are more stylish and sell cars. At the other end we have the Civic VP (Value Package) with its ancient 14" rim and even more ancient .70 high profile S-rated (lowest) tires. A wheel/tire combo long since forgotten by the Civic's competiton. That's real "value" I guess.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Is what gets you from A-B with minimum worries. A 14" s-rated tire will do the job. It's rated for 110 mph(faster than most people have ever gone in a car) and a 70 aspect ratio makes for a smooth ride. If economical transportation is what you are seeking, you can't beat it. My 1986 RX7 had 185/70/14's on it. It was one of the best handling cars at the time.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    not sure I follow your logic there - the contact patch is ten millimeters wider (generally a GOOD thing for handling, particularly turns), while they maintained the same sidewall height (actually decreased it slightly). The sidewall height is one of the primary determinants in how comfortable the ride will be, and how well the car will turn. Make it tiny and turn on a dime (other factors being equal), while at the other end of the spectrum make it large and cushion every rock and pothole in the road (and protect the rim from said obstacles), but reduce the sharpness of the handling.

    At 205/55, the SI is right in the middle of the spectrum of sidewall height for sporty cars today. In fact, the BMW 3-series uses this profile as its base set-up right now (as just one of many examples). Lastly, being a 205/55/16 (back to the Honda) rather than a 205/55/15 improves handling.


    I think tires do have some role in handling. I hate to do that, but SIZE DOES NOT MATTER. It is the rubber compound and the contact patch that matters. But most importantly suspension geometry is what at play. You can get a bone jarring ride in 70 sidewall ratio tire if it is a runflat from Dunlop or michelin. Higher inflation will do the same.

    You can have a 19 inch Kumho tire and a 15 inch Yokohama tire perform the same. Only because Yokohama has better rubber compound.

    Also, wider tires are not good for winter. In winter driving you want the smallest contact patch to generate more pressure per square inch. Wider tire will spread the weight over larger area and will not be able to provide the grip you are looking for. So, yes, 14 inch Blizzaks is what is on my car in the winter. I have yet to spin out or lose control.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    we can certainly agree to disagree. I do not think a car like the SI should have small tires and rims, unlike the VP - "Value Package" meaning economical to run, and more importantly really cheap to replace when that time comes, to respond to mauto's post.

    Speaking of the competition, the Toyota Camry used a 195/70/14 on the base Camry until 2001. Same reason. The Corolla is direct competition for the Civic, and it used a like combo until 2002. The Dodge Neon still uses a 175/70/14 as its standard tire. The Chevy Cavalier's standard tire is a 195/70/14.

    Far from being "A wheel/tire combo long since forgotten by the Civic's competiton.", it seems to be in heavy use by many of Civic's competitors! :-)

    blueiedgod: I am trying hard to follow your point here: originally it seemed you were speaking directly to the tire size of the SI, but now you are saying "SIZE DOES NOT MATTER".

    I was originally trying to counter your point on size alone. But I must partially agree that size is not the only factor that matters. It DOES MATTER, but other things about the suspension, wheels, and tires also matter. In re-reading your post, I think maybe I missed your point and that you were referring to wheel size alone. If so, then I agree that 15s would be big enough from a performance point of view, and that bigger low profile tires on 15s would improve handling more than same-size tires on a bigger rim. But people like bigger rims - they look nice and they sell, and professional criticism of the '03 SI was harsh and centered mainly on the fact that the rim was so small. Honda merely responded to that.

    My '02 Celica was a sharper handler than either my current car or the SI, and it had 15" rims, I believe the tires were 205/55s IIRC.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mautomauto Member Posts: 75
    "Is what gets you from A-B with minimum worries. A 14" s-rated tire will do the job."

    General Motors said that many times during the 70s and 80s. They also had droves of loyal fans, like Honda, but they couldn't save their market share slide. Honda should not be complacent.

    If all Honda wants to do is "get the job done", then it succeeds with the VP. But the competition also "gets the job done" with more features and performance than the VP for very little extra cost. The base Mazda 3 comes to mind. The fact that some Edmunds' readers find the VP's features in such company as base Neons and Cavaliers should be a wake up call to Honda.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    The VP is a proven well built car on small tires. Class leading efficiency, safety, and reliability. GM couldn't dream to build a small car as well thought of as the Civic. Hardly a comparison there.

    You can compare a IS300 to a Civic but that doesn't make them comparable.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I loved this sideways remark!!
    "The fact that some Edmunds' readers find the VP's features in such company as base Neons and Cavaliers should be a wake up call to Honda."
    It was perfect! Apples to apples, my friend. Civic VP is a $12K car all day long, the same price as those other cars I mentioned. And there is absolutely no question as to which I would buy if that were the limit of my budget...

    The Mazda 3 is a nice car that is $1500 more than that even with the 2.0, and if you have $14K to spend, you are into a Civic LX with the bigger rims (or a Corolla, or a Focus, or...)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • scooter71scooter71 Member Posts: 56
    I'm currently trying to decide between the base RSX and the Si.

    What kind of fuel mileage are people seeing in the real world with their Si's?

    What about insurance? I live in a city with tons of wreckless tuner kids, and I worry that insurance will be high.

    Finally, are people still paying invoice or below for Si's, even in major cities?

    Many thanks in advance. :)
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    Before I modified my Si, I averaged 28mpg in mixed driving, and up to 33mpg on the highway. (drive to Vegas) Now I get about 25 in mixed driving and 30mpg on the highway. But you can realistically expect 26/31 or better (as posted).

    The car is supposed to be difficult to steal, and it hasn't been very popular, so insurance has been fairly reasonable (for me)

    I bought mine in 2002, and I don't see them advertised anymore, so I don't know what people are paying.
  • jmiller417jmiller417 Member Posts: 20
    I have a 2002 Si, so I can't speak to what people are paying these days. I'd check the Edmunds TMV or carsdirect.com, which gives you a price a dealer will actually sell you a car for.

    I get mid-20s mpg driving in New York City and northern New Jersey. I would expect a little higher in a normal city. On the highway, I get 30 mpg driving in the mid-70 mph range.

    In Hudson County, NJ (the car theft capital of the U.S.), I'm paying about $1570 a year with GEICO. I don't know if an RSX would be any better on that count, though I suspect a base RSX might escape the random vandalism and badge stealing that's afflicted my Si.
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    Gas mileage for a 2003 SI is as stated or slightly better than on the sticker (26 mpg city, 30-31 highway). I think the tires are slighly fatter on the (205's vs 195's) 2004 models, which might cut the mileage slightly.

    Insurance in Louisiana is absurdly high for a 2003 Civic SI ($2,000/year - about $600 higher than a 2003 Toyota Tacoma as a reference - see earlier remarks in this forum- Sept-Oct). Price the base model Acura RSX and Honda Civic SI with your insurance broker before purchase.

    If the 2004 SI's are still on the lot, the final price should be about $2,500 less than the base model RSX. Otherwise, get the RSX for comfort and the extra warranty coverage (4 y - 50,000 vs 3 y - 36,000)
  • taykinitezytaykinitezy Member Posts: 56
    I bought my '04 Si last April at invoice. I sometimes get the impression from other posts that I may have done better, I don't know, at the time I wasn't in the mood to haggle.(I was quoted over the internet) A couple dealers at the time still had a couple '03's sitting around they were quoting around $16,000. Only checked mileage once, it was around 30 in mixed driving. Insurance is higher than the 2000 4dr civic I had prior, it is also higher than our 03 CR-V. But my age and driving record helps alot I'm sure. I could tell you my insurance rates but they wouldn't mean much considering you have to take so many things into account. I would think the RSX would be higher yet...good luck.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    '04 RSX and there may not be that much price difference...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Just be sure you don't need the back seats often if you go for the RSX.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    I'm currently trying to decide between the base RSX and the Si.
    What kind of fuel mileage are people seeing in the real world with their Si's?
    What about insurance? I live in a city with tons of wreckless tuner kids, and I worry that insurance will be high.
    Finally, are people still paying invoice or below for Si's, even in major cities?
    Many thanks in advance. :)


    Just for the record, base RSX and Si are 95% the same car. There should not be too much difference. The Si has the Type S final drive which cuts into its fuel economy, but gives it a little more pep than base RSX with the same engine.
    I notice that my city fuel economy in the Si is better than highway. It is probably due to the fact that highway driving for me is 70-80 mph, which puts the engine at 4000 RPM.

    The insurance will depend on your driving record. Either way, you will pay more for the Honda/Acura than Cavalier/Focus. Although, my insurance is only $50 more a year than my girlfriend's Focus. The best way to find out the insurance cost is to get a qoute, either from your current company, or any of the numerous internet qoute sites. The new Si has immobilizer and there only have been one intance on the "other" forum when the Si was stolen. But the guy had spare key in the somewhere in the car.

    As far as the price goes, see if you can find a left over 2004. I bought a left over 2002 in January 2003 for a good deal ($14,500, it was advertized in the paper for $15,000). But Honda has cut the incentives on the Si. They have also cut the importation as well to stabilize the prices.
    You may want to check out websites that are specializing in the new Si, which happends to have a body code EP and is a HATCH
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    has pictures of the '06 SI, and guess what hatchback fans? It is going to be a coupe again. :-(

    They expect 200 hp at least just to stay on par with the new GTI and the Ion Redline/SRT-4. There is a lot more power in the hot hatch (hot compact maybe?) marketplace these days.

    Apparently the '02-05 SI hatch is the worst-selling Honda of all time (mentioned in the article). There has been no other model so quick to have dealer cashback. I think "hot hatches" have gone through an enormous transformation since the early 80s. VW has realized it, and they hope to regain lost sales by finally updating the GTI to a modern standard for '06. With the SI, Honda also tried to emulate its very successful late 80s hot hatches, but the formula for a successful hot hatch today is different from what it was back then. You need more power and top-rate handling (including commensurate rims, tires, and suspension).

    The SI is a sweet little car, I almost got one, but it is not on a par with other $20K hot hatches in stock form. It compares very favorably with the tC, but that of course is a $16.5K car.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    It is going to be a coupe again. :-(

    It should not be called Si. Si's always been a hatch except for the 99-2000 coupe. They should just call it an EX-S or something.

    They expect 200 hp at least just to stay on par with the new GTI and the Ion Redline/SRT-4. There is a lot more power in the hot hatch (hot compact maybe?) marketplace these days.

    Since the RSX-S got a 10 hp boost this year, they will probably stick the K20A1 into it from the current RSX. I doubt Honda would the Si have almost as much power as the RSX-S. I would say, realistically, we are looking at 180 Hp.

    You need more power and top-rate handling (including commensurate rims, tires, and suspension).

    I think Si's handling in the current form is still superior to SRT, and on par with GTI. It may not have a 180 hp engine, but the driving dynamics are very similar to VW's. The 1.8T has one problem, it surges after 3000 RPM. Although it is fun to make your tires chirp on 2nd to 3rd gear shift, it is not fun when you need traction. I had some difficulty adjusting to the un-even power coming from the 1.8T. It is very lethargic at take off, and then surges as the turbo spools up, above 3000 RPM. At least with the Si's i-VTEC the power is smooth and constant through out the RPM range. It took me a little while to adjust to un-Honda-like low 6800 RPM redline.

    The SI is a sweet little car, I almost got one, but it is not on a par with other $20K hot hatches in stock form. It compares very favorably with the tC, but that of course is a $16.5K car.

    This is the best part of the current Si. There are only a few people who paid full sticker for the Si. I waited and paid $14.5K for it with 8 miles on the odo. Coupled with 1.9% I pay less for the 2002 Si, than I did for the 1999 Civic coupe.
  • wheelz4wheelz4 Member Posts: 569
    "Apparently the '02-05 SI hatch is the worst-selling Honda of all time"
    And, if you haven't already heard, Honda Canada is pulling the plug on the SiR altogether...citing
    "currency fluctuations"...what a joke...the Can$ is at it's highest level in years, up from the mid-sixties (versus the US$) to almost the mid-eighty cent level....if anything, they should be able to price the SiR LOWER....or keep it the same and make more $$$ off it. The fact is, you can get a Mazda3 with 160hp, 17" wheels and tires and even leather inside (not to mention the more useful 5 door vs. 3 door guise) for thousands less than an SiR. Currency fluctuations my butt..
    the Sir was simply too little car for too much $$$
  • billmchalebillmchale Member Posts: 107
    I wonder how the Civic hatchbacks are doing in Europe? I think part of the problem with the Si in this generation is that the car is too unique from the rest of the Civic line; Except for the name on the vehicle there is very little on the car that identifies it as a Civic. Some might also be turned off by the profile of the car. Finally I think this current generation Civic has been a bit of a bust with the tuner crowd; they weren't happy by loosing the wishbone suspension up front and there were plenty of last generation civics around as long as several other cars with alot of tuner potential.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    I wonder how the Civic hatchbacks are doing in Europe? I think part of the problem with the Si in this generation is that the car is too unique from the rest of the Civic line; Except for the name on the vehicle there is very little on the car that identifies it as a Civic.

    Honda is not as popular in Europe as it is in the US. I think VW and Pegeout are the kings of hatches in Europe.
    The Civic hatch in Europe is also available as 5 door, and a less potent 115 hp and a diesel. Europeans are also more likley to buy a hatch over a 4 door. The hatchbacks in Europe are like SUV's are in US.
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    Is there any logic to the Civic product line or are the model types arbitrary designations? Does "EX" represent economy.. and "LX" represent luxury..? Si (sport ..)? Perhaps one letter represents an engine type and the other a suspension type?
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I can't keep track of Civic model designations anymore. I stopped counting in the 90s when they had: cx, dx, lx, ex, hx, si, an vx. (maybe not all at the same time, but close enough) Maybe there was no lx back then?
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I'm going to have to see one in person to be sure, but that just might be the ugliest car I've ever seen. It looks like a Daewoo Lanos and a 6th gen Civic hatchback were combined into some sort of horrific circus freak. Honda is going to have to do something unbelievable, powertrain wise, to save that train wreck.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    I don't like it either.

    Hard to imagine a type-R based on that. Harder to imagine the coupe and sedan looking like it, but there's speculation that like in the past, all the Civics will look more like each other.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    Is there any logic to the Civic product line or are the model types arbitrary designations? Does "EX" represent economy.. and "LX" represent luxury..? Si (sport ..)? Perhaps one letter represents an engine type and the other a suspension type?

    Actually, there is logic to Honda's trim levels. It saves them on production cost, and provides a product that serves 95 percentile in the bell shape distribution. Other manufacturer's are adopting the trim level packaging over "ala carte" options.

    CX - very bottom of the entry level, no power steering, nothing power, prewired for radio, only 2 speakers, power brakes, no VTEC, low HP, automatic optional (power steering included with auto).

    DX - entry level, no power options, but has power steering, come with AM/FM radio, automatic optional.

    VP - DX with automatic.

    LX - mainstream car, power windows/locks, AM/FM/Cassette, same engine as CX/DX.

    GX - LX with natural gas burning engine.

    HX/VX - lean burning VTEC, similar to iVTEC on the Si and RSX, but with less power and better fuel economy. CVT automatic is optional. Power windows/locks, alloys wheels.

    EX - Adds sunroof, ABS, CD to the LX's options and comes with VTEC engine.

    Hybrid - Similar packaging to EX, except the sunroof, but comes with 144 D cell batteries, 1 gas lean burning VTEC engine and 1 electric motor. CVT is the optional auto.

    SE - EX with leather. (Although, last generation accord SE was an LX with auto, and sunroof)

    Si - the top of the line Civic with no automatic option available, the most powerful iVTEC engine in the Civic line up, except the RSX-S. Comes with ABS with EBD, stiffer suspension and other goodies.

    Not all trims are available in all areas of the US
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    DX is always the base trim, LX is the middle trim with the highest sales, and EX is the highest of the "regular" trims. SI always has EX equipment levels but with a more powerful engine and better handlin package.

    GX is always natural gas, HX/VX are always lean-burn, gas-saver models.

    Over the years, they offered a super-stripper hatchback version called the CX that sold around $10K, even in the year 2000, the last time they offered that. For the CX, Honda made it seem like a special favor that they had included seats and a steering wheel. No CX right now. And VP's and SE's have meant various things over the years, so it is impossible to generalize them. Right now, the Civic VP is a Civic DX with automatic, A/C, and CD added back in for a package savings price. Interestingly, for '05 there is no DX coupe, and the VP takes its place as the lowest rung on the scale. However, there IS a DX sedan.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kauai215kauai215 Member Posts: 190
    Oh, my goodness... It's 'orrible 'tis!
  • mautomauto Member Posts: 75
    Well stated, I must say. Obviously, if people are paying US$16k for an outrageously overpriced new Si, means that the cars are selling badly. Also resale is very low with such heavy discounts offered on new models. Of course, Honda basically gave potential Si owners the finger by raising the 04 Si price several hundred dollars MORE. And naturally, those enthusiasts have been returning the gesture by flocking to Mazda and Subaru dealerships ever since.
  • billmchalebillmchale Member Posts: 107
    I would say that the current generation SI has a list price that is too high. It is a nice car, but not as nice as the Mazda3 and with the Scion tC out there for a couple of thousand less... well it means you either have to get a good deal on the Si or be a real Honda enthusiast to buy one.
  • jmiller417jmiller417 Member Posts: 20
    That looks like a five-door, so I doubt the Type R will look like that. I do see some potential for a sleek three-door along those lines. They seem to be following the new Euro Focus with the less steep hatch.

    In any case, no reason for us to worry about it, because there's not a chance it'll be sold here in that form.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    ... well it means you either have to get a good deal on the Si...

    You betcha. Paid $14,500 for brand spanking new Si in January of last year with 8 miles on the odo. Plus, financed all of it at 1.9% for 60 months, with only paying taxes and DMV fees in cash.
    Would I have bought it for MSRP? Invoice? Most likeley not. But at that price it was hard to pass up. Even invoice is hard to swallow. But then again, I would not buy a compact for $20K. Impreza, Mazda 3, Focus, Mini are very close to $20K when optioned similarly to the "loaded to the gills" Si.

    Honda does live up to its reputation of being "poor man's BMW" When compared directly with Mini Cooper S, it offers similar perfomance and road feel for much less, even at invoice. It may not have the "Chick appeal" Mini has, but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
  • taykinitezytaykinitezy Member Posts: 56
    Haven't had my '04 in the snow yet. I have had several small front wheel drive cars in the past and they all handled well. Any comments on the Si with stock Michelins?.....thanks.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    Haven't had my '04 in the snow yet. I have had several small front wheel drive cars in the past and they all handled well. Any comments on the Si with stock Michelins?.....thanks.

    Stock Michelins are very good for medium duty snow driving. Don't expect the Blizzak snow tire grip, but they are much better than other OEM tires on sporty cars out there. I drove in the 3 blizzards last year and had no problem getting traction. Don't forget, you have a stick, use it. The best snow cars are the stick shifted ones.
  • mautomauto Member Posts: 75
    "Honda does live up to its reputation of being "poor man's BMW" ".

    First time I've ever heard that.

    But you are right about the Si not having "chick appeal". Most of those "chicks" prefer to drive Chevy Cavaliers and Pontiac Sunfires - why I don't know. All you have to do is crack open any auto magazine to read how dreadful they are. Hey! I just answered my own question.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    But you are right about the Si not having "chick appeal". Most of those "chicks" prefer to drive Chevy Cavaliers and Pontiac Sunfires - why I don't know. All you have to do is crack open any auto magazine to read how dreadful they are. Hey! I just answered my own question.

    Most people can only see the beauty on the exterior, we are a nation of very shallow people. Si is ugly, but you know sometimes a Pug is so ugly it is cute, so is the Si. And she makes up for the "door stop" styling in handling, perfomance and most importantly "creature comforts"

    Cavaliers and Sunfires may have some styling, but the insides are still the 1983 design.
    Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    There is no better $16k car on the market. As far as the $19k list price....I wouldn't pay that much.

    As for the Mazda3 being "superior". Last I checked they didn't make a 2 door hatch 3.
  • boston14boston14 Member Posts: 111
    Hi, I test rode a 05 Si and loved it. Totally loved it. Please tell me how to get one for under 18 grand. Best I could do was 18,800 and free security system put in. I cant see how they can sell for some of the prices I have seen posted here.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the market was flooded with SIs, which is how some people got such low prices. Since last year, Honda has limited the number of SIs it brought here, so the days of $15,9 for a brand new one are probably over.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mautomauto Member Posts: 75
    Yep, the Mazda 3 is not a three door hatch. It's a five door. That's why it is "superior". You know this car is selling like hotcakes since there's no rebate - unusual for a Mazda.

    The Si is a nice car and I do like the styling. But selling a manual trans. 3 door hatchback in the land of automatic sedans was always gonna be a tough nut to crack.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    The Si is a nice car and I do like the styling. But selling a manual trans. 3 door hatchback in the land of automatic sedans was always gonna be a tough nut to crack.

    I wish all the cars were manual. It would keep un-skilled drivers off the road. If one does not want to put time and effort into driving, maybe they should not be driving. Auto's should only be sold with a doctor's note to someone who physically can not shift (amputee's and such). There is no reason why a healthy person can not drive stick, except for being lazy. The latest surveys show that we are a nation of lazy bums who do not eat right, do not excersize, and allow ourselves to look the way we do. Don't laugh, it is all connected. Lazy people don't feel like eating right, don't feel like excersizing, don't feel like being active, don't feel like exerting any kind of work, including shifting their own gears.
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    I agree completely with blueiedgod.

    Forcing manual transmissions onto the market would reduce the amount of accidents from people who feel that they have something better to do than drive when they are on the road (i.e. eating, talking on the telephone etc.). You should try driving in Louisiana. Everyone owns a 3 ton pickup with an automatic transmission and they never use turn signals for lane changes or turns. They don't even have to change gears and they fail to drive properly. If a trucker can negotiate 13 gears and drive impeccably, then the average citizen can negotiate 5 or 6 gears. Manual tranmissions would also reduce the weight of the vehicle (no torque converter) and give better control of rpms. This has the added benefit of improving the gas mileage of all the cars.
  • wildbillwildbill Member Posts: 12
    I agree too. In addition I feel the world would be a safer place if all auto's were limited to 90 HP and speed limited to a 75 MPH.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    It doesn't improve gas mileage when you're driving stick the fun way!
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I could have waited for the 3 or bought a Mazda5. Obviously the Civic was what I wanted. In that case I feel it is superior to the 3 since they don't offer the configuration that I desired.
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