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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier
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Comments
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
none match the combo of refinement , value , w/ decent proformance of the si also @ 17k-19k there is plenty of money for upgrades to match acceleration times of the aforementioned cars
all that said it is your personal preffernce that really matters
Josh
taykinitezy, I would also say follow blueiedgod's advice. But don't forget customization. There are shock/spring kits or coilover kits that will give you a softer ride, and there are adjustable ones too. I don't know exactly which would give you a softer ride, but there's a website dedicated to the EP hatch where you could ask. It'd cost you several hundred to over $1k including installation, so maybe it's not an option.
Otherwise, just have fun!
I'll be the first to admit the Si isn't for everyone, but whenever you open an import sport magazine, the Si is all over it. Not bad for a minivan.
“kauai, how do you compare the P5 to the Si?”
They are very much alike in character, both being sport compacts successfully targeting people like us. The Protege5 obviously has the convenience of two extra doors, and it holds more as well, so we use it when we load up our kayaks on the roof and all the gear in the trunk.
The P5 sits lower, corners flatter, thanks to an excellent, and stiff suspension setup mated to low-profile tires (195/50-16), and can give the Si a run for its money through the twisty bits, despite what it lacks in acceleration. It’s a splendid car and a lot of fun. Build quality is outstanding; this car is built in Japan. The P5 hasn’t the power of the Si, though. But it has “enough” for sensible use. That’s untrue, of course, as I’ve never had “enough” power in anything, ever. . . but you know what I mean. ;-)
For handling prowess, the nod easily goes to the P5. The steering is superb, far better than the Si, and it handles like the proverbial go-cart. As rough as our friend Takinitezy finds his Si, it’s nothing compared to the P5, which will beat you up on rough pavement. The Si is tolerable to us, if only just, but the P5 has me thinking about my routes. If you didn’t need to visit the restroom at the beginning of a one-mile stretch of really rough city street in the P5, you’ll be looking for that restroom at the end! ;-)
We love the go-cart handling, but it comes at a price. It’s no problem if your roads are smooth. You’ll love it then. I think Mazda dialed the suspension back a bit in the new Mazda3, although I haven’t driven one. The magazines say the P5 is more fun, but the Mazda3 probably generates fewer complaints.
We’ve had the P5 for a couple of years and I’d buy it again in a heartbeat. If some unfortunate circumstances forced us to live with only one car, I think we’d sell the Si and keep the P5.
The engine in the Si is incomparable. I have never enjoyed such a sewing-machine smooth 4-cylinder as this Si. And with it’s amazing engineering, it has real torque at even 2500 rpm, unlike the P5. The P5 engine is rough in comparison, and doesn’t feel nearly so strong. The Si, I’ve long maintained, drives like a small displacement V-6 with much more flexibility throughout the rpm range. It’s amazing technology.
The P5 gets superior fuel economy, but only by a small margin. The Si’s fuel economy will drop dramatically in town driving if you dip into the throttle much. That technology that gives the V-6 performance also returns V6-like fuel economy at low speeds when there’s a lot of slowing, stopping, going, accelerating, etc. Others have noted this as well. One time we actually saw around 22 mpg when we just used the Si around our village where the speed limits are 25-30 mph. A steady throttle opening on the highway returns the more expected fuel economy of a 2L 4-cylinder of around 30 mpg.
The Si sits higher and leans more in hard cornering. All the same, the Si is deceptively quick even with it’s scrawny 195/60-15 all season tires.
The Si has superior technology, without question, but it falls short in equaling the build quality of the P5. That’s to be expected, though, when we recall the Brits’ “chequered reputation,” to put it charitably, for build quality. We’d buy the Si again as well.
We’ve owned many Civics, three Si’s, and this is the best yet. Our ’99 Si would have made a better autocross car, though. The new Si’s don’t fare well in autocross compared to the older chassis, especially not when they’re modified for improved handling. The older wishbone design permits better maximum performance, I suspect. That’s what everyone anticipated, and it seems to be the case in autocross competition, at any rate.
We both love the seats in the Si, while the seats in the P5 are ‘orrible, easily the worst I think we’ve ever had with the possible exception of our ’88 Mustang GT.
These are definitely both fun cars, not mere transportation appliances, and they’re both easy to love.
Both the Si and the P5 deliver on their promise of a fun sporting car with a practical nature. They’ll please any enthusiast, I should think. I recommend them both, and rather than choose, we got one of each! :-)
Get a good radar detector, or just keep an eye out for cops. We are not telling you to do anyting outrageously criminal. Accelerating to the speed limit is not illegal, taking turns faster than "suggested" speed sign is not illegal if you and your car can handle it. Of course, you need to know your and your car's limits. I suggest going to an empty parking lot and see what are the limits.
Every winter, with the first snow fall, I take my car, whatever car I will be driving for the winter, to an empty parking lot. And re-train my self for snow driving. Although, driving skils are like riding a bicycle, if you don't do it often, you forget.
PRoblem with people on the road, is that they lack emergency maneuvering skills. All they do is stomp on the brakes. With a front driver a combination of parking brake and throttle can save you from going into a ditch or hitting someone, as opposed to just slamming on the brakes and hoping not to hit anyone. This is where Si excells. If you just going to drive it to and fro work like a drone, get a KIA, it will get the job done just as well. One way to avoind traffic, is to switch your hours. When I lived and worked around NYC, I worked from 7 am, rather than 9 am, like everyone else. I rarely hit traffic doing those hours.
Thanks,
http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0307it_ppcivic/
I don't think the Si's lack of HP is the main reason for 7.5 sec (??) to 60, but rather that you have to shift three times. The low red line and low gearing in the 1st, 2nd and final drive are the culprit. If you just raised the red line with a Hondata chip to 8000 RPM (I think), you should be able to do 60 mph in 2nd gear, and it would probably put you in 7.0 sec to 60 mph. IMHO.
performance chart
HP Level HP+ TQ Level TQ+B Baseline 153.3 * 131.9 *
1 K&N Air Filter 160.6 7.3 135.3 4.4
2 Tanabe Exhaust 163.4 2.8 134.8 -0.5
3 DC Sports Header 166.9 3.5 129.7 -5.1
Final 166.9 13.6 129.7 -2.2
Most people modifying their cars measure the quarter-mile time, not 0-60. But there are plenty of people at 15.0 or better with:
cold air intake, header, cat-back, and motor mounts.
Hondata is great also, but a few people have blown engines with it. (it raises redline to 7400)
Please don't bring on traffic issues, it is non-existent. I find it more difficult to modulate lower speed (sub 10 mph) in auto than manual. Autos always want to shift, while I want the car to creep at 5-10 mph. Driving a Honda stick in traffic is not difficult as long as you are not riding the bumper of the car infornt of you. I rarely shift in traffic jams. Next time you are stuck in a traffic jam, pay attention what the big rigs are doing. They are constantly rolling, you may see me rolling with them. When you are driving auto, your right leg does twice the work alternating between gas and brake to keep up. When I am driving an auto, like a rental or comapny car, and I am in traffic, i shift it to the lowest setting on the gear selector. This way I don't have to alternate between gas and brake.
End of rant.
P.S. Learn how to drive stick and you will see what you are missing.
As far as the hatchback/auto thing. No one in the U.S. wants hatches..manual or automatic. That's why they barely exist in this market.
And as sad as the current market situation is, many economy performance cars (Civic Si, Neon SRT-4, Cobalt SS, etc.) only come with a manual. As long as automakers think this niche is worth putting effort into, there'll be manual transmissions.
As far as overall driving feel, the 03 Si was noticably superior - the feel and location of the 5 spd beats any car I have ever driven, it is tight & quick & easy to toss around. However, it was by far the noisiest on the highway, the seating seem too low, and I really would like an armrest (got an aftermarket in my 92).
Si ownwers: Has anyone successfully muted the road noise? Is there a aftermarket armrest available? Thanks!
As far as overall driving feel, the 03 Si was noticably superior - the feel and location of the 5 spd beats any car I have ever driven, it is tight & quick & easy to toss around. However, it was by far the noisiest on the highway, the seating seem too low, and I really would like an armrest (got an aftermarket in my 92).
Si ownwers: Has anyone successfully muted the road noise? Is there a aftermarket armrest available? Thanks!
I don't notice the road noise over the music the engine makes and wide open thorttle. The stock radio is pretty powerful for a Honda radio. If you are sure that it was road noise and not wind noise or engine noise, different tire may be the solution.
There is an aftermarket armrest, it is very crude, it attaches to seat mouting bolts on the passenger side of driver's seat and driver side passenger's seat. It has a sliding coushion. After I saw it, I walked from it. I got used to driving without armrest.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0502/11/C01-86834.htm
I really like the 92-95 Civic Si, it was one of my favorite cars at the time, but unavailable to me. It inspired me to buy the 02+ Si.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As for the new Civic Si coupé, I expect far better lower-RPM performance because of the use of i-VTEC, which gives the engine more "oomph" without having to rev the engine near the redline.
raychuang00 - I don't think the new Si is going to have any better torque than the current Si. Honda says they are taking the redline back to 8000. As long as the displacement stays low, the low-end torque probably will too.
Oh and I found this: http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0204scc_civicengine- /
Dunno if any of this is a great idea on shallow pockets, but good luck. (Luckily, it doesn't take a B16A engine to make a car as light as your CX fast. You might find a good deal on a lesser B-series engine.)
If your pockets are shallow, buy a used Civic Si. Engine swaps may look inexpensive, but if not done properly will cost you more in the long run.
If you want high RPM power, go for B16, if you want low end torque go for B18. The cheapest solution for someone with not too much cash is nitrous, or forced induction. Forced induction on the CX engine is probably the best thing to do, since it has lower compression to begin with.
Nitrous - $600
Supercharger - $1500 6 psi max, with intercooler, proper fuel management - $2000 and up.
Turbo - $2000, with intercooler and proper fuel management - $3500 and up.
All of those modifications will lower the life expectancy of your motor, tranny, mounts, drive shafts. These mods are only recomennded for manual shifted vehicles, autos need not apply.
New to this forum. But I was wondering, does anyone here do the 7,500 or 15,000 mile service? I have a 2004 Honda Civic Si with 17,500 miles and gets it's oil changed every 3,000 miles. I sorta think the 15,000 mile service is a waste of money. It's more a visual inspection and some lubing here and there and that's about it. Let me know what you think.
I like the CRV but miss my fun drives in the SI. I may be buying an 05 SI soon and my wife thinks I am crazy.
On take off, a spirited take off, I have this click, that I can feel in the steering wheel. The car is not pulling to the side, but I hear a click, or a quiet bang. My suspicion is that CV joint is stressed, the boot looks OK, I get no clicks in turns, only on spirited take off. My other suspect is the lower control arm mounting locations or ball joints. I know, the car is under warranty, and I should make this a dealer's problem, but most of the times they are clueless. I was wondering if anyone had similar experience and what the problem was.
On the other board people talked about the steering racks being replaced on some 2002's. Not sure if it is related.
btw...I followed your lead (at least I think it was you) and installed a set of G009's. Nice tires.
I have Potenza's 950's. I live where it snows, so all weather perfomance is important to me. I wish I could just run with summer tire, and then get winter tires for snow. But it seems to be too much hassle to be switching back and forth. It is not like once it snows the roads are covered with snow. The plows remove the snow and salt the roads. I don't see need for the 15-20 minutes for the whole season when I drive on snow covered roads. I just wait until the roads are plowed.
I was looking at aftermarket superchargers on the Jacksonracing.com website. The Civic SI has a listed horsepower of 160 and the Focus SVT has a listed horsepower of 170. The stock dyno tested horsepowers were 125.3 and 146.9 for the SI and SVT, respectively. Why and what contributes to Honda having engine to wheel horsepower ratio of 78 % and Ford an engine to wheel horespower ratio of 86 %.
“Why and what contributes to Honda having engine to wheel horsepower ratio of 78 % and Ford an engine to wheel horespower ratio of 86 %.”
You appear to be assuming that the original, claimed horsepower figures are accurate, and that both engines were evaluated identically. That's a big assumption, and might be worth reconsidering.
The one constant (apparently) is the Jackson Racing dyno test, which has greater credence for me than anything the marketroids boast of.
I would first question the accuracy of the manufacturer’s stated horsepower, and how they arrived at those figures. If an independent agency were to apply its own evaluation methods, would these two engines still come out at 160 and 170 hp, respectively?
As you have alluded to, the real-world, delivered horsepower is what matters, not some, possibly, hypothetical figure.
I would be surprised to learn that Ford somehow managed to dramatically reduce power loss between the flywheel and the road wheels, employing some "magical" new transmission technology.
I suspect the answer to your question about this apparent discrepancy is more likely to be found not in the machinery, but elsewhere -- the advertising department, for instance. ;-)
Do you recall the recent debacle the SVT folks were embroiled in when they claimed a certain horsepower figure for their SVT Cobra Mustang . . . and it turned out to be a wee bit optimistic? Did you hear about that?
The buyers of said SVT Cobras were just the sort to go out and confirm those horsepower figures, and they were not amused or tolerant of the “error” when their engines failed to produce the advertised horsepower. They raised a ruckus!
It proved expensive for Ford to make good to those Cobra buyers, and was a public relations nightmare.
Possibly, just possibly, the SVT folks may now err on the conservative side when advertising horsepower figures . . . if only to hang onto their jobs. ;-)
Just a thought.
Or to make inruance companies happier.
I think someone posted on TEMPLE site their dyno charts for the 2002 Accord I4, it dynoed at 155 hp at the wheels, while Honda claims it having 160 hp at the crank. It is very possible that the engine produces more power than claimed.
“Or to make insurance companies happier.”
Yes, yet another behind-the-scenes factor that may influence a manufacturer’s decision to deliberately under-report performance figures.
Very much along that same line is the current situation in Japan, as I understand it. Apparently, the government is not keen on manufacturers putting cars out on the street with more than 300 hp. I read in Autoweek, I think, that there is a gentlemen’s agreement amongst the Japanese manufacturers to refrain from building cars with more than 300 hp. They would prefer the government not become involved, but one wonders these days what the real power figures might be as, for instance, the EVO VIII goes head-to-head with the WRX Sti. ;-)
"... the deliberate gross under-reporting that occurred during the "muscle-car" era."
Yep. I had one of those. It was fierce! [laughing]
Apparently, there are even more photos on the Autoweek website for those who might be interested.
I've also heard that Focus engines have high tolerances, so you have good odds of getting one with 5 more hp than advertised, or one with 5 less. Sport Compact Car's project non-SVT Focus happened to have more power than expected... maybe it's a conservative rating by Ford.