Toyota Prius and Honda Hybrid: Will anyone buy Hybrids??

vickells · January 2000

Would you happen to know if I could get an Accord EX it in Georgia as an SULEV?

wenyue · January 2000

hey, how's it going? Long time no see.

As for the numbers. I was quoting Honda's official number for the Insight, even with a 5-spd transmission 0-60 takes 12 seconds. I usually don't use automotive magazine numbers since you get a different number from each magazine and they tend to push the test car beyond design specifications and sacrifice long term reliability which normal drivers wouldn't do, just a personal preference.

Anyway, here is the website where I got it from.

http://www.europeanhonda.demon.nl/honda_insight2.htm

I haven't found official number from Toyota for U.S version of the Prius yet. The number I used is from a Motor Trend article (about 12 seconds). They tested a Prius that is a Japanese version of the car using 1.0 L engine, I think the U.S version is coming with 1.5L vvt-i engine.

The point I'm trying to get accross is that they are just not very practical at this point. The fuel they save does not justify their higher price. A Insight is $20,495 with A/C (but the A/C could only make the subpar performance even worse by further draining power). The Prius have got more useful seating like a Corolla, but at an estimated price of $22K, the little extra fuel you save isn't going you refil the wallet as quickly as the car loan payments drains it. And you could get both the Civic EX and Corolla anytrime for thousands less and get 0-60 time of 8.5 and 8.4 seconds respectively. Simplier design, which probably translate into greater reliability and parts availability. Not to mention seating for 4-5 people.

All this and Honda and Toyota are lossing $20k for EACH CAR SOLD! So unless Honda and Toyota can figure out how to fix all these short comings, Insight and Prius are really not very practical. Who knows how long will the 2 companies hang onto the money losing business. In my opinion, hybrid technology will never be cheaper than conventional engines, since it will always cost more to put 2 engines and link them all together under the hood than using just one.

My attitude? It's one of wait and see. Besides, it's better to hold off on the first year product, especially one that's so much more complex than a normal car.

robertsmx · January 2000

Vickells:
Unfortunately SULEV Accord EX is available (in limited number) in California only. Perhaps you can try to order one.

Wenyue:
Yes, trying to catch up after the vacation. Made a short trip to UK in December.
In fact, Insight uses a "practical" technology in the sense that it would be easier to transfer it to mass production cars in the near future and looks like Honda already has plans to do that. They are also increasing production of Insights. What is practical about is the way it works. The battery provides extra torque whenever needed, the rest of the driving is on gasoline engine which would be the same as any other car, thus less drain of battery, and whatever it is, gets charged almost immediately. Honda used the same technology to showcase the Honda Spocket (Tokyo and LA auto show) which uses both, a gasoline engine (front wheels) and the battery (rear wheels). It is quite possible that we will see Spocket into production early (Honda seems to be interested in it or else they would not showcase it at two auto shows without the purpose), and we may also see Civic getting low end torque boost from something similar to the battery in the Insight. But as usual, I don't expect Honda to put anything, that is not time tested, in Civic or Accord, so perhaps in a couple of years, just like they did with VTEC. Insight could predict the future of next generation Hondas. This will also make it easier to make all engines SULEV (Honda has been making statements about a 2.0/I-4 SULEV engine for a Honda in 2001 the next Integra?).
Prius' technique is based on exactly the opposite of Insight. (Ford/GM etc. have also come up with concepts that follow Prius' path). It uses the 1.5 liter engine during acceleration/pull, and batter for normal driving. That means, battery would drain based on driving habits. Aggressive driving would drain it more and force the driver to apply "recharging" techniques earlier. This technology however has an advantage over Hondas in terms of better gas mileage (since gasoline engine is used to a minimum), but Prius suffers with curb weight, perhaps as much as 1.5 times that of Insights (hence poorer acceleration is expected). Insight uses a/c which is tiny as well (only 28 lb!!) obviously not designed for larger than Insight car. Also, Insight's engine (1.0 liter 3-cylinder lean burn VTEC-E much like Civic HX'x 1.6/I4 VTEC-E) weighs at only 125 lb.! (that is way lighter per liter than any other Honda engine). While Insight may look impractical to most of us, it is not for the future.

mzn · January 2000

To continue talking about the Insight, please join us in the Hatchbacks conference, Honda Insight Hatchback Wins MSV Award.

carlady/host

robertsmx · January 2000

Wenyue,
But Honda made two statements (from CNNfn site)
- Increase in Insight production
- Using hybrid technology in a mainstream car for 2001 model (likely to be the Civic perhaps something like Civic HX that was introduced as 1997 model to provide the first CVT car to us, and is still the middle model in the Civic coupe lineup, and then Civic GX)
Honda has promised launch of a car based on its concept FCX sedan (fuel cell) by 2003. Y'day I noticed in an environmentalist magazine that a version of the FCX concept is already out (wearing Honda EV costume), reassuring that FC tech will be out soon.
Insight would sell very well in Europe and Asia, as is Prius doing. It is the low volume that is hurting profits(?) so if they can put the concept into a mass production car, it will be much cheaper.

wenyue · January 2000

I think it's the fuel cell is much more reasonable way to go. One car one engine will always cost less than the same car with 2 engines.

I don't think it's the small production scale that's hurting the profit. Just look at the S2000 roadster. I don't think Honda lost any money on that one even though only 5000 is built. Of course the amount of loss per car would be lowered if the production scaled up. But I think the biggest cost here is the components in the car. The amount of high tech engine, electrical engine, costly batteries, complex transmission, etc that Honda and Toyota puts into these babies are just too costly to be covered by $20 sticker. So if the production is scaled up, you might only lose $10k per car, but the greater number produced would cost just as much, if not more.

Honda is saying "it's going to increase the Insight production". Considering how few Insights have been built, it would have to be true in any case. But at the loss of $20K per car, you can expect neither cars would ever approach the production number of the Civic or Corolla.

I think it's entirely possible for Honda to put out a Civic HX with hybrid engine. It wouldn't be hard since the technology is there. And another good thing, HX trim has never been too popular, so the loss could be kept in control. But once there is the Civic HX hybrid, who would buy the 2 seater Insight? If this happens, I think the Insight would then be discontinued.

I think both the Prius and Insight are mostly public relations act, and a feasability test. After few years, it will be discontinued, or scaled back to a symbolic level (like Honda EV). After all, no corporation on earth is here for money losing business. Maximizing profit and keep the share holder rich is their goal.

I for one am waiting for the fuel cell technology. It's less complex (at least mechanically), cleaner (use no gasoline at all), more efficient (we don't have to live with 60 hp hybrid engine any more), and also be cheaper. GM, Ford, Toyota and Honda all massive programs on it. Ford said fuel cell cars will count as 20% of the cars sold worldwide by 2010. And I believe him.

robertsmx · January 2000

First, I wouldnot believe an automaker losing $20K on each car. (I've not heard this from Honda, although they have quoted it that the car is not profitable). Secondly, I could see Insight as a concept, not a mainstream car. To be able to put a successful mainstream (mass production car) like Civics or Corollas, the technology has to be competent with the rest of the world. As I said earlier, Insight will make way for near future cars, and then, Honda has already promised FCX into production by 2003! What I mean is, if Honda would combine 1.6 liter VTEC (say the CVT version that puts out 115 HP) with boost at low rpms (electric engine develops all its torque at low engine speeds), it will be a great combination. Mileage will not be the best of hybrid vehicles, but perhaps 20-30% improvement over gasoline engines, and much cleaner. It is the stop and go traffic that consumes gas and pollutes the most, and this is where the electric engine will help. Regarding cost, I don't think Honda is losing any or much money over each Insight. Not sure about Toyota though but I don't always believe the statements made by their spokesperson (perhaps I don't like the tone... same goes for Nissan).
Civic HX is a completely different case. I see plenty of HXs on the road, and one of my colleagues wanted one, but it is not available most of the time. It is a nice value at $13-14K (power everything, auto, a/c, audio, except for cruise control which may not be compatible with the CVT technology for now).
S2000 is a different case where only materials differ, and some are even shared with hi-tech Hondas (Type-Rs and the NSX, example the engine technology, electrically powered steering, lightweight, tiny suspension system etc.), and with production of about 12K cars per year, the cost would be easier to control. In fact, Honda churns out fewer Integra Type-Rs than S2000s!

wenyue · January 2000

I agree there is no concrete number on how much Honda and Toyota are losing on each vehicle. It's certain that they are losing money, even though the sticker is already considerably above other similiar non-hybrid products. The $20K is an estimate by industrial analysts. I don't think it's right on the money, but probably in the ball park. Eitherway, like you said, the Prius and Insight are concepts, not meant for mass production.

I agree that fuel cell technology will become commerically available very soon. I am encouraged by Honda's projection of a fuel cell car by 2003. Toyota lead the way in fuel cell technology with the world's first prototype in 1996 to carry it's fuel in hydrogen absorbent alloy. It also has the 2nd generation fuel cell technology, displayed first time in 1999 Tokyo Motor show. It's actually quite interesting. I was reading Toyota's technology news. With the second generation fuel cell technology, the Toyota fuel cell now has more capability than U.S department of Energy's 2004 target (it hold more than 1 kW energy per liter). Toyota stated that the R&D phase of the fuel cell vehicle is already complete, and it is already in the production developement phase. It won't be too long now. The major hurdle that remains, cost is one of them, securing reliable fuel source is another. But I can see by 2003-05, most manufactuers will have found or created solutions for them.

As for HX, I haven't seen on the road. Maybe it's more popular where you live. When I was shopping for a compact car last year, one of the HOnda dealers offered me a left over 98 Civic HX. There were 3 to choose from. It doesn't seem to be very popular here.

Anyway, we will just have to wait and see if these things catch on. Well nice talking to ya. Got to get some shut eye.

occupant1 · February 2000

The brochure for the Honda Insight given to me this afternoon states that the CVT will be available as an option sometime later in 2000. That means a hybrid engine, and a hybrid transmission!

Since I drive 60-80K per year as a courier, the gasoline savings would be seen in about four to five years. People who drive long commutes daily, who put 30-40K a year or more on their cars, would see the gas savings well before the life of the car was up.

Interesting note: the Toyota Prius is available for 21,500 credits in the Playstation game Gran Turismo 2. It's strange to see the tachometer drop to 0 when braking or cornering with my finger off the accelerator. I was able to win a couple of races with it against VW Lupos and other small cars.

occupant1 · February 2000

CVT is the rubber band transmission. It's a Continuously Variable Transmission, with no preset gears. See the January 1996 issue of Car & Driver for an explanation (Civic won 10 Best that year, and also Automobile magazine's Car of the Year), or maybe somewhere online might have it.

The Civic HX comes standard with a 5-speed, gets 37 city and 43 highway. The CVT has been available since 1996 on the Civic HX coupe, and it gets 34 city and 38 highway. Those are figures I remember from 1997 when I worked at the Civic factory in East Liberty.

agtabby · February 2000

Hydrids don't make sense in the US, gas is just plain way too cheap, even now. Even with the huge subsidies that are provided by maker, the numbers just don't add up.

I think Europe is the place they should be pushed - gas is 2 to 3X more expensive there. If they are offered there it will be interesting. The question is not whether people will want hybrids, but at what gas price? 3 bucks per gallon, 4, 5, 6, 10?!

Andrew

robertsmx · February 2000

Hybrid cars will be used by environment conscious more than by money conscious in the USA since gas is cheap. There will not be big savings here in terms of money but when one would go back and think how much of the limited natural resource (gas) he/she burnt every week, the results would come faster. Small attempts like this are for advancements in the future. 5000 little Insights sharing road with 50000 Excursions (BTW, 95% of the time, both will have only one passenger) makes the "green" advantage insignificant. But, future Hondas could use the technology in the mainstream cars if the battery pack could become cheaper. Again, Hondas are not all there are, but then the rest will follow. It has to begin somewhere.

robertsmx · February 2000

51 Insights sold in the USA in January 2000.

alexp · February 2000

Few days ago I went to check out the 4Runner, (Chicago Suburbs) and my daughter noticed Toyota Echo. She was sold immidiately.! She said it is the right size and right amount of options. Even though it is sold below the manufacturers cost right now, it will pay off later. Not because of the environment (we don't have that much impact on it) but because of the loogic behind the the more economical car.

alexp · February 2000

And yes another thing... some of the posters are talking about something they shouldn't be... If you are talking about Europe or Japan look at their market first. Not at the "USA Today" but at the source, like "Aautomotive News Europe" or "Japan Auto"

robertsmx · February 2000

alexp:
Toyota Echo is not the Toyota hybrid. Toyota Prius is. Echo replaced Tercel and comes with CVT transmission (same as in Civic HX).

isellhondas · February 2000

Seem to attract shoppers who are...well...,non mainstream. Was that PC?

jguo · March 2000

If these hybrid cars are allowed in the HOV lane (with 1 passenger) like the electrical cars in California, there might be quite a demand for them, at least in the SF Bay Area.

robertsmx · March 2000

iguo:
I was just reading couple of newswires at CNNfn, and learnt that there is now a waiting time for Insight (2-4 months), and that Budget Rent A Car (Beverly Hills and another in California) have them to rent. Also that Insight comes with 8 year/80K powertrain coverage.

dannyg · April 2000

Just saw the Prius at the NY Auto Show, and I must say I'm impressed. I think it would make an excellent second car for running errands (+60MPG for city driving) or perhaps a good only car for a couple or small family.

I do wonder why they don't offer the Prius drivetrain in the Echo. VW gets a $1K premium for their TDI cars (Jetta, Beetle, etc.) which also get excellent MPG. If the Prius drivetrain was offered as a $1K option, I think it could be a real seller.

hondobondo · April 2000

These cars are developmental black holes, produced by the only companies that can afford
them, Toyota and Honda, as market and public relations gimmicks, and to placate various governmental bodies.

They have no long term significance.

Fuel cells will become the combustion engines's successor.

They sell for half of what they cost to produce, are mechanically complex, and haven't licked the
basic electrical engine problem of regenerating power. Basically they are just 3 cylinder engines with some added electrical oomph.

Metro used to have a 3 cylinder engine. It got something of the order of 45 miles/ gallon.

Hardly a technological triumph.

rfruth · April 2000

There is a positive review of the 2000 Insight in the June issue of Motor Trend (page 110) or surf for it (http://motortrend.com) this is something coming from 'car guys' I could have had a Insight ! I don't know if hybrids fuel cells or whatever will be it but most of us know 15 MPG SUVs (silly urban vehicles) don't make much sense.

Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth

1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
2000 DX Civic hatchback

robertsmx · May 2000

From my first impressions, I think Prius and Echo are same cars with different names. One of them got CVT and other gets hybrid technology.

Honda's hybrid technology has the following,
1. 1.0 liter/I-3 SOHC VTEC-E engine, capable of putting out 65 HP and 68 lb.-ft of torque (2750-4750 rpm).
2. IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) which consists of a battery pack and ability to recharge the battery from the energy captured from gasoline engine during deceleration, hence never a need to plug the battery to recharge. (Unlike Honda EV Plus which needed an electrical outlet every 80 miles or so).

Battery pack is bulky, expensive and heavy. But electric motor, like diesels, is capable of generating good amount of torque at low rpm, but is not as capable at higher revs (that generates more power). For IMA system as large as it is in Insight, the additional output is about 15 lb.-ft (I think), and IMA takes over the gasoline engine on start from stand still, and assists the gasoline engine during acceleration for the extra oomph (i.e. the additional torque). The combination allows the 1.0 liter /I-3 engine with IMA to get about 80 lb.-ft torque from about 1500 rpm, good enough to move a 1850 lb. vehicle. A larger IMA system would develop more torque (which will obviously result in more power), but on the down side, the cost factor and weight may not be worth it, as of now (until the technology evolves and is more widespread).
What would happen if the same IMA is coupled to Civic's fuel sipper 1.6 liter/I-4 115 HP VTEC-E (the less known Civic HX coupe/gets better than 40 mpg with the CVT tranny)? The torque output would jump at low rpm (<2000 rpm) to about 120 lb.-ft, and perhaps even boosting the top end power at lower rpm. My assumption on such a car would be about 50-55 mpg. This is a serious possibility with the next generation of Civics around the corner (2001 is redesign year for Civic, so if IMA makes it in Civic, it would be about 6 months to a year since the launch date). I'm pretty sure that was what Insight was designed for, as a launching pad for the future of hybrid technology.

FYI. Honda is increasing production of Insights from 5000/year to 6500/year, due to demand!

hondobondo · May 2000

If the hybrid technology leaks down into
Honda's mainstream cars, great.

That's the test.

Since Honda is also directing its efforts toward fuel cell technology, with the very real possibility it may have a commercial offering this decade, then Honda certainly is positioning itself for the new millenium.

Its been 25+ years since man has been to the moon.
Today, there are no plans in the works to visit any solar body. Perhaps it will happen again in another 25. But today, no nation can afford the technology that managed this achievement.

When man starts visiting other solar bodies on a frequency greater than every 50 years, the question will be how much of the technology that
wiil allows this will have been derived from the technology that allowed the original achievement.

The answer will probably be very little.

So allowing economic realities to direct resources with regard to the advancement of technology is probably very advisable.

The significance of any technological advancement generally correlates to the degree that it is economically as opposed to politically driven.

no1trust1 · May 2000

I'd like to see more than just a picture of one. LA basin, San Diego, Palm Springs, wherever, does a dealer have one? Plan to visit SoCal around the holiday. Thanks for any help.

no1trust1 · June 2000

The proposed rental program really has my attention now. Can't wait for the details. 8 years/100k miles on the hybrid system- more than I'll need. that might make the Prius real popular. Wonder if it's as quiet and safe as other Toyota sedans?

denniswade · July 2000

the Prius topic in the sedan conference. There's a lot of info there, and most of it is pretty authoritative, especially if it comes from cliffy1, who is a Toyota salesman.

Prius should do very well. I realize that robertsmx's post above was back in early May, but his opinion is just silly on its face -- all he's looking at is the similar styling of the two cars. Other than that, there is NO similarity between the two, inside or out. Toyota has been selling the Prius for the last two years in Japan, and it's a great success there. They've made some changes to the car to compensate for the amount of freeway driving we do, which is what has delayed its introduction till now. I've driven one, and it smooth and quiet beyond belief, has good power and a wonderful, slightly retro-looking interior. Very cool car.

robertsmx · July 2000

denniswade:
You've great words to say, but little understanding. Insight and Prius are similar technologies, applied in reverse, don't believe me? Read about them.

robertsmx · July 2000

dennis:
Sorry, I didn't look back at the post to reply to your previous one, and thought you were referring to Insight versus Prius, didn't realize it was about Prius and Echo.

Well, take it again from me, Toyota designed Prius and based Echo on it. No matter how much they remind you of your age, they are pretty much alike, except in drivetrain.

Forget language, we'll have to find out a place to go about it. May be you could lean a few things from someone half your age.

robertsmx · July 2000

See, we really have to find a place to discuss language. I meant "learn" above (not "lean"), but atleast both have some meaning in English. What is "dingbat"? Which dictionary?

Can we be civil? I tried, you started!

denniswade · July 2000

And I love to read your posts, especially regarding torque and horsepower. I just have this reflex action where my hand flies out as soon as someone takes a slap at me......

BTW -- The Echo was designed in Europe and was based on the Yaris. The Prius was designed by Calty (in California) and was based on the same design esthetic they've been developing for about 6 years now. A couple of years ago I was invited to a styling clinic for the next-generation Camry, and there was some pretty radical stuff -- not necessarily pretty, either. The main similarity between the Prius and Echo is the taller profile. But this is a trend throughout the entire industry (The Ford Focus, the new semi-sport-utes from Audi, Porsche, etc.). It's the Next New Thing, and although I don't care for it esthetically, I have a feeling it's gonna be with us awhile.

gckorn · July 2000

Placed an internet order to Toyota for a Prius. Delivery is scheduled for late July or early August. I'll enjoy the "stealth" mode!

no1trust1 · July 2000

Didn't know there was another Prius topic out there.

wenyue · July 2000

Keep us posted!

So far I haven't seen a hybrid car owner in the Townhall, so you probably will be the first. So when are you getting the car? The Prius seems like alot more car for the money than the Insight. I went to www.prius.toyota.com, but they only have a few pictures, but it's more than enough to tweak my interest. Know any place with more and better pictures? Thanks.

gckorn · July 2000

wenyvue,

1. The Toyota dealers now have a Prius brochure, which has photos.

2. Go to http://www.evworld.com and, at the top, select "Test Drives," and then select the "Toyota Prius" tab. This includes a photo and a short video.

3. Go to http://www.evworld.com and, a the top, select "Reports," and then select "Toyota Prius Report."

4. http://www.anim8.com/prius

5. http://www.evaa.org/PubsMenu/EVs_in_the_Market/Prius/prius.html

6. http://www.steveparker.com/laautoshow.htm

7. http://www.edmund.com/edweb/news/newyork00/production.toyotaprius.html

8. http://www.driven.co.nz/reviews/prius.html

9. Broadside view: http://www.albatrossimediat.fi/etelakymen/uutiset.shtml

10. And, for fun: www.thermoanalytics.com/gallery/index.html

wenyue · July 2000

WOW! Thanks for all the links! Now where do I start?

stevens4 · July 2000

I took a test ride in the new Prius last week along with four other passengers. This is an extraordinary car, which has been designed here in the U.S. by Toyota's California engineering team.

Toyota has greatly improved the Prius engine(s) performance since last year's U.S. test evaluations. The torque is now rated at 258 pounds from 0-400rpm. During our test ride the driver put it to the floor and "burned rubber" from a standstill, and this was with five full size passengers on board. Passing at cruising speed was also strong. The new beefed up torque is said to be nearly the same as the fullsize Toyota Avalon.

The Prius ride quality, fit and finish are superb. The EPA 52 mpg city rating provides up to four times better mileage than my 1996 V8-SUV. Under ideal conditions it should be possible to travel nearly twice as far on 10-12 gallons (600+ miles) on 1/4 the amount of gas as the V-8 SUV. Four times as far on 1/4 as much. The drag coefficiency of the Prius is .29 the same as the new Toyota Celica sports coupe.

I'm 6'2 and sat in the back. There's plenty of leg & headroom even with the front seats pushed back. It's cab forward design. The driving visibility is great. Entry and exit for passengers is very easy and comfortable with a somewhat elevated seating angle. The warranty is the best of any car I've considered purchasing. So I ordered one and now we'll see how it goes this fall and winter.

stevens4 · July 2000

On the previous post about the Prius mileage economy compared to the V8-SUV the sentence should probably read "Under ideal conditions is should be possible to travel twice as far (600 miles) on 1/4 as much gas when compared to the V8-SUV." Getting this kind of fuel efficiency challenges the math skills!

stevens4 · July 2000

Post #142 the sentence about fuel economy should read "Twice as far on 1/4 as much" instead of four times as far on 1/4 as much.

mlg61 · July 2000

I have just skimmed a few of the posts here and don't have a well-informed opinion on whether Americans will buy the Prius or not. I can only say that I hope that hybrids will be significant part of the automotive future in the U.S., at least until something better comes along. I can share my personal motivations, but I don't pretend to believe that I represent the average person.

I applaud Toyota for producing the Prius. I know that they are looking out for their own future more than they are truly interested in the environment, but I have heard so many promises for "greener" cars and so little actual practical delivery to the public that I am very impressed that Toyota actually has something to deliver. It is very likely that I will buy one. The main reason is that our family is about ready for a third car. The main reason for a Prius is that it is better for the environment and I am willing to pay a little more for that. I don't like the idea of a purely electric car because they are not practical yet and I just don't have enough information on exactly what the trade-off is between my car polluting through combustion engine emissions and the electric company polluting (or creating radioactive waste) to produce the electricity for and electric car. With a hybrid, I don't plug it in so the energy consumption and emissions are much easier to evaluate. I like the Prius better than the Insight because of the automatic transmission and the seating for 5.

wenyue · July 2000

Very good point. An electric car does pollute after all, it's just the electric company polluting for you instead you yourself. hm.... never thought of that.

I wonder which is more ENERGY efficient. Using electric power or fossil fuel power. I guess it has alot to do with how electricity in your area is generated. Hydroelectric damn should produce very little pollution, but they tend to hurt eco system (damming a river change alot of things). Fossile fuel electric company probably causes more pollution than if you burn it yourself (conversion of energy is never 100% efficient, so more transfer/conversion = less efficient). Nuclear power, well, it's either clean or dirty depends on your point of view.

breaksr · August 2000

How many automotive companies are willing to sell a car for half of what it cost to build. I'm in as soon as I need a new car (probably under one year).
It is this complexity that is a major concern. Complexity adds cost, both in terms what it takes to build the the powertrain and what it takes to maintain it. Industry observers estimate that Toyota is losing something like $16,000 for every Prius it sells. This is because it costs between $35,000 and $40,000 to build, while Toyota sells the car for less than $20,000. One might call this the price of "one-ups-manship." Whatever Toyota's motives for selling the Prius at a sizable loss, there is no disputing the fact they have created a technological tour d' force that is the envy of the automotive world.

sam125 · August 2000

My Prius arrives Wed or Thu of next week, along with 11 others, they tell me (Acton Toyota, Mass.)I ordered it in early July - I had my doubts, but my deposit is fully refundable as they are confident they can sell all they can get their hands on. My doubts lessened considerably after a test drive about 2 weeks ago (when they finally got one for that purpose) - the car handles great, the acceleration is just fine, and it cruises quite comfortably at 70mph (one of my concerns, since every now and then I have to do some highway driving). My wife thinks it's a "weenie" car, and I respect her opinion, but she has neither seen nor driven it.
To be fair to her and to me (and to take Edmunds up on their advice), I will hurry up and test drive a Saab 9-5 and a Bimmer 3 series this weekend. I'm sure they're great cars, but no matter how I compare them all on paper, the Prius wins out. I think you have to be either a "techie" or a "greenie" to be excited by the Prius, and I have a bit of both in me.

dickdell · August 2000

I have driven the car and love it BUT..... I just contacted Toyota national and dealer to inquire about replacement cost of the high voltage battery pack.... get this its... $5,000!!! what can they be thinking?? If you put a lot of miles on as I do and its only guaranteed for 100,000 if you go over and this thing craps out you are on the hook for big bucks! Toyota people are saying its rated for "Life of the vehicle" I asked how long is that? NO ANSWER! I then said if thats so then they should warranty it that long.

If you buy this and go to sell it after 100,000 it will have no value because the buyer may have to put new pack in, I would think Toyota should have thought this through. What about trade in value? The dealers will know what that costs?

I also asked about software updates to the computer system no one even knew what I was talking about.

I also am not pleased that the dealers know very little about this car, I know more from my research then they do. This gives me little confidence on getting this fixed properly if there is a problem. I was not permitted to talk to any member of MGMT when I called Toyota. So if anyone from TOYOTA reads this please respond to me!! BUYER BEWARE is the catch phrase for this
A nice car with what could be some major pitfalls!

wenyue · August 2000

what more can you expect? I think Toyota has been great by tacking on an 8 year/100,000 miles warranty. Honda only tack on a 36,000 miles warranty. And the laptop computer only has 1 year warranty.

Battery pack isn't cheap, but that's not Toyota's fault. Even the tiny battery in your cordless phone cost $30+ to replace.

rfruth · August 2000

Honda has a long warranty (8 years ?) for the Insight battery (not the whole car) my next one will be some kind of HEV (Hybrid Electric Vehicle) cause a 15 mpg SUV (silly urban vehicle) doesn't make much sense.

Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth

1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
2000 Civic hatchback when I have to

hnwilcox · August 2000

Hi Folks,

I just purchased a Toyota Prius and have been wondering about Crash Test Scores. On crashtest.com I couldnt find any Prius scores for Toyota USA, although there were scores for Toyota Japan and they were not very good.

I'm hoping that the American model has been upgraded for crash test safety.

Any ideas here?

roadroach · August 2000

Regarding crash test scores: there are certain minimums which ANY car sold in the US must meet. On the other hand - of course the scores are not that good. Even if you neglect the fact that both the Insight and Prius are very small cars, Honda and Toyota put both cars on an extreme crash diet to par weight. Remember, that nifty electric motor and associated battery pack weigh SUBSTANTIALLY more than the equivalent extra power in a slightly larger ICE. To keep the mileage figures as high as possible and to keep the performance within an acceptable range, the weight had to be cut. I would imagine that the basic structural rigidity of these cars isn't near the levels of your garden variety Civic or Corolla.

IMO, I would not be surprised if the Feds actually lowered the crash test standards for these new hybrids to help them get to market.

rmarsh2 · September 2000

Like many of you, I am intrigued by the Prius and am considering ordering one. However, does anyone have any sustained mileage experience with one? I'd be interested in hearing about some real experience you may have had. Mileage anyone??

dupie · September 2000

Are there any figures released by Toyota as to how many Prius have been ordered from July of this year to September

Toyota Prius and Honda Hybrid: Will anyone buy Hybrids??

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