Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Toyota Prius and Honda Hybrid: Will anyone buy Hybrids??
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
As for the numbers. I was quoting Honda's official number for the Insight, even with a 5-spd transmission 0-60 takes 12 seconds. I usually don't use automotive magazine numbers since you get a different number from each magazine and they tend to push the test car beyond design specifications and sacrifice long term reliability which normal drivers wouldn't do, just a personal preference.
Anyway, here is the website where I got it from.
http://www.europeanhonda.demon.nl/honda_insight2.htm
I haven't found official number from Toyota for U.S version of the Prius yet. The number I used is from a Motor Trend article (about 12 seconds). They tested a Prius that is a Japanese version of the car using 1.0 L engine, I think the U.S version is coming with 1.5L vvt-i engine.
The point I'm trying to get accross is that they are just not very practical at this point. The fuel they save does not justify their higher price. A Insight is $20,495 with A/C (but the A/C could only make the subpar performance even worse by further draining power). The Prius have got more useful seating like a Corolla, but at an estimated price of $22K, the little extra fuel you save isn't going you refil the wallet as quickly as the car loan payments drains it. And you could get both the Civic EX and Corolla anytrime for thousands less and get 0-60 time of 8.5 and 8.4 seconds respectively. Simplier design, which probably translate into greater reliability and parts availability. Not to mention seating for 4-5 people.
All this and Honda and Toyota are lossing $20k for EACH CAR SOLD! So unless Honda and Toyota can figure out how to fix all these short comings, Insight and Prius are really not very practical. Who knows how long will the 2 companies hang onto the money losing business. In my opinion, hybrid technology will never be cheaper than conventional engines, since it will always cost more to put 2 engines and link them all together under the hood than using just one.
My attitude? It's one of wait and see. Besides, it's better to hold off on the first year product, especially one that's so much more complex than a normal car.
Unfortunately SULEV Accord EX is available (in limited number) in California only. Perhaps you can try to order one.
Wenyue:
Yes, trying to catch up after the vacation. Made a short trip to UK in December.
In fact, Insight uses a "practical" technology in the sense that it would be easier to transfer it to mass production cars in the near future and looks like Honda already has plans to do that. They are also increasing production of Insights. What is practical about is the way it works. The battery provides extra torque whenever needed, the rest of the driving is on gasoline engine which would be the same as any other car, thus less drain of battery, and whatever it is, gets charged almost immediately. Honda used the same technology to showcase the Honda Spocket (Tokyo and LA auto show) which uses both, a gasoline engine (front wheels) and the battery (rear wheels). It is quite possible that we will see Spocket into production early (Honda seems to be interested in it or else they would not showcase it at two auto shows without the purpose), and we may also see Civic getting low end torque boost from something similar to the battery in the Insight. But as usual, I don't expect Honda to put anything, that is not time tested, in Civic or Accord, so perhaps in a couple of years, just like they did with VTEC. Insight could predict the future of next generation Hondas. This will also make it easier to make all engines SULEV (Honda has been making statements about a 2.0/I-4 SULEV engine for a Honda in 2001 the next Integra?).
Prius' technique is based on exactly the opposite of Insight. (Ford/GM etc. have also come up with concepts that follow Prius' path). It uses the 1.5 liter engine during acceleration/pull, and batter for normal driving. That means, battery would drain based on driving habits. Aggressive driving would drain it more and force the driver to apply "recharging" techniques earlier. This technology however has an advantage over Hondas in terms of better gas mileage (since gasoline engine is used to a minimum), but Prius suffers with curb weight, perhaps as much as 1.5 times that of Insights (hence poorer acceleration is expected). Insight uses a/c which is tiny as well (only 28 lb!!) obviously not designed for larger than Insight car. Also, Insight's engine (1.0 liter 3-cylinder lean burn VTEC-E much like Civic HX'x 1.6/I4 VTEC-E) weighs at only 125 lb.! (that is way lighter per liter than any other Honda engine). While Insight may look impractical to most of us, it is not for the future.
carlady/host
But Honda made two statements (from CNNfn site)
- Increase in Insight production
- Using hybrid technology in a mainstream car for 2001 model (likely to be the Civic perhaps something like Civic HX that was introduced as 1997 model to provide the first CVT car to us, and is still the middle model in the Civic coupe lineup, and then Civic GX)
Honda has promised launch of a car based on its concept FCX sedan (fuel cell) by 2003. Y'day I noticed in an environmentalist magazine that a version of the FCX concept is already out (wearing Honda EV costume), reassuring that FC tech will be out soon.
Insight would sell very well in Europe and Asia, as is Prius doing. It is the low volume that is hurting profits(?) so if they can put the concept into a mass production car, it will be much cheaper.
I don't think it's the small production scale that's hurting the profit. Just look at the S2000 roadster. I don't think Honda lost any money on that one even though only 5000 is built. Of course the amount of loss per car would be lowered if the production scaled up. But I think the biggest cost here is the components in the car. The amount of high tech engine, electrical engine, costly batteries, complex transmission, etc that Honda and Toyota puts into these babies are just too costly to be covered by $20 sticker. So if the production is scaled up, you might only lose $10k per car, but the greater number produced would cost just as much, if not more.
Honda is saying "it's going to increase the Insight production". Considering how few Insights have been built, it would have to be true in any case. But at the loss of $20K per car, you can expect neither cars would ever approach the production number of the Civic or Corolla.
I think it's entirely possible for Honda to put out a Civic HX with hybrid engine. It wouldn't be hard since the technology is there. And another good thing, HX trim has never been too popular, so the loss could be kept in control. But once there is the Civic HX hybrid, who would buy the 2 seater Insight? If this happens, I think the Insight would then be discontinued.
I think both the Prius and Insight are mostly public relations act, and a feasability test. After few years, it will be discontinued, or scaled back to a symbolic level (like Honda EV). After all, no corporation on earth is here for money losing business. Maximizing profit and keep the share holder rich is their goal.
I for one am waiting for the fuel cell technology. It's less complex (at least mechanically), cleaner (use no gasoline at all), more efficient (we don't have to live with 60 hp hybrid engine any more), and also be cheaper. GM, Ford, Toyota and Honda all massive programs on it. Ford said fuel cell cars will count as 20% of the cars sold worldwide by 2010. And I believe him.
Civic HX is a completely different case. I see plenty of HXs on the road, and one of my colleagues wanted one, but it is not available most of the time. It is a nice value at $13-14K (power everything, auto, a/c, audio, except for cruise control which may not be compatible with the CVT technology for now).
S2000 is a different case where only materials differ, and some are even shared with hi-tech Hondas (Type-Rs and the NSX, example the engine technology, electrically powered steering, lightweight, tiny suspension system etc.), and with production of about 12K cars per year, the cost would be easier to control. In fact, Honda churns out fewer Integra Type-Rs than S2000s!
I agree that fuel cell technology will become commerically available very soon. I am encouraged by Honda's projection of a fuel cell car by 2003. Toyota lead the way in fuel cell technology with the world's first prototype in 1996 to carry it's fuel in hydrogen absorbent alloy. It also has the 2nd generation fuel cell technology, displayed first time in 1999 Tokyo Motor show. It's actually quite interesting. I was reading Toyota's technology news. With the second generation fuel cell technology, the Toyota fuel cell now has more capability than U.S department of Energy's 2004 target (it hold more than 1 kW energy per liter). Toyota stated that the R&D phase of the fuel cell vehicle is already complete, and it is already in the production developement phase. It won't be too long now. The major hurdle that remains, cost is one of them, securing reliable fuel source is another. But I can see by 2003-05, most manufactuers will have found or created solutions for them.
As for HX, I haven't seen on the road. Maybe it's more popular where you live. When I was shopping for a compact car last year, one of the HOnda dealers offered me a left over 98 Civic HX. There were 3 to choose from. It doesn't seem to be very popular here.
Anyway, we will just have to wait and see if these things catch on. Well nice talking to ya. Got to get some shut eye.
Since I drive 60-80K per year as a courier, the gasoline savings would be seen in about four to five years. People who drive long commutes daily, who put 30-40K a year or more on their cars, would see the gas savings well before the life of the car was up.
Interesting note: the Toyota Prius is available for 21,500 credits in the Playstation game Gran Turismo 2. It's strange to see the tachometer drop to 0 when braking or cornering with my finger off the accelerator. I was able to win a couple of races with it against VW Lupos and other small cars.
The Civic HX comes standard with a 5-speed, gets 37 city and 43 highway. The CVT has been available since 1996 on the Civic HX coupe, and it gets 34 city and 38 highway. Those are figures I remember from 1997 when I worked at the Civic factory in East Liberty.
I think Europe is the place they should be pushed - gas is 2 to 3X more expensive there. If they are offered there it will be interesting. The question is not whether people will want hybrids, but at what gas price? 3 bucks per gallon, 4, 5, 6, 10?!
Andrew
Toyota Echo is not the Toyota hybrid. Toyota Prius is. Echo replaced Tercel and comes with CVT transmission (same as in Civic HX).
I was just reading couple of newswires at CNNfn, and learnt that there is now a waiting time for Insight (2-4 months), and that Budget Rent A Car (Beverly Hills and another in California) have them to rent. Also that Insight comes with 8 year/80K powertrain coverage.
I do wonder why they don't offer the Prius drivetrain in the Echo. VW gets a $1K premium for their TDI cars (Jetta, Beetle, etc.) which also get excellent MPG. If the Prius drivetrain was offered as a $1K option, I think it could be a real seller.
them, Toyota and Honda, as market and public relations gimmicks, and to placate various governmental bodies.
They have no long term significance.
Fuel cells will become the combustion engines's successor.
They sell for half of what they cost to produce, are mechanically complex, and haven't licked the
basic electrical engine problem of regenerating power. Basically they are just 3 cylinder engines with some added electrical oomph.
Metro used to have a 3 cylinder engine. It got something of the order of 45 miles/ gallon.
Hardly a technological triumph.
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth
1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
2000 DX Civic hatchback
Honda's hybrid technology has the following,
1. 1.0 liter/I-3 SOHC VTEC-E engine, capable of putting out 65 HP and 68 lb.-ft of torque (2750-4750 rpm).
2. IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) which consists of a battery pack and ability to recharge the battery from the energy captured from gasoline engine during deceleration, hence never a need to plug the battery to recharge. (Unlike Honda EV Plus which needed an electrical outlet every 80 miles or so).
Battery pack is bulky, expensive and heavy. But electric motor, like diesels, is capable of generating good amount of torque at low rpm, but is not as capable at higher revs (that generates more power). For IMA system as large as it is in Insight, the additional output is about 15 lb.-ft (I think), and IMA takes over the gasoline engine on start from stand still, and assists the gasoline engine during acceleration for the extra oomph (i.e. the additional torque). The combination allows the 1.0 liter /I-3 engine with IMA to get about 80 lb.-ft torque from about 1500 rpm, good enough to move a 1850 lb. vehicle. A larger IMA system would develop more torque (which will obviously result in more power), but on the down side, the cost factor and weight may not be worth it, as of now (until the technology evolves and is more widespread).
What would happen if the same IMA is coupled to Civic's fuel sipper 1.6 liter/I-4 115 HP VTEC-E (the less known Civic HX coupe/gets better than 40 mpg with the CVT tranny)? The torque output would jump at low rpm (<2000 rpm) to about 120 lb.-ft, and perhaps even boosting the top end power at lower rpm. My assumption on such a car would be about 50-55 mpg. This is a serious possibility with the next generation of Civics around the corner (2001 is redesign year for Civic, so if IMA makes it in Civic, it would be about 6 months to a year since the launch date). I'm pretty sure that was what Insight was designed for, as a launching pad for the future of hybrid technology.
FYI. Honda is increasing production of Insights from 5000/year to 6500/year, due to demand!
Honda's mainstream cars, great.
That's the test.
Since Honda is also directing its efforts toward fuel cell technology, with the very real possibility it may have a commercial offering this decade, then Honda certainly is positioning itself for the new millenium.
Its been 25+ years since man has been to the moon.
Today, there are no plans in the works to visit any solar body. Perhaps it will happen again in another 25. But today, no nation can afford the technology that managed this achievement.
When man starts visiting other solar bodies on a frequency greater than every 50 years, the question will be how much of the technology that
wiil allows this will have been derived from the technology that allowed the original achievement.
The answer will probably be very little.
So allowing economic realities to direct resources with regard to the advancement of technology is probably very advisable.
The significance of any technological advancement generally correlates to the degree that it is economically as opposed to politically driven.
Prius should do very well. I realize that robertsmx's post above was back in early May, but his opinion is just silly on its face -- all he's looking at is the similar styling of the two cars. Other than that, there is NO similarity between the two, inside or out. Toyota has been selling the Prius for the last two years in Japan, and it's a great success there. They've made some changes to the car to compensate for the amount of freeway driving we do, which is what has delayed its introduction till now. I've driven one, and it smooth and quiet beyond belief, has good power and a wonderful, slightly retro-looking interior. Very cool car.
You've great words to say, but little understanding. Insight and Prius are similar technologies, applied in reverse, don't believe me? Read about them.
Sorry, I didn't look back at the post to reply to your previous one, and thought you were referring to Insight versus Prius, didn't realize it was about Prius and Echo.
Well, take it again from me, Toyota designed Prius and based Echo on it. No matter how much they remind you of your age, they are pretty much alike, except in drivetrain.
Forget language, we'll have to find out a place to go about it. May be you could lean a few things from someone half your age.
Can we be civil? I tried, you started!
BTW -- The Echo was designed in Europe and was based on the Yaris. The Prius was designed by Calty (in California) and was based on the same design esthetic they've been developing for about 6 years now. A couple of years ago I was invited to a styling clinic for the next-generation Camry, and there was some pretty radical stuff -- not necessarily pretty, either. The main similarity between the Prius and Echo is the taller profile. But this is a trend throughout the entire industry (The Ford Focus, the new semi-sport-utes from Audi, Porsche, etc.). It's the Next New Thing, and although I don't care for it esthetically, I have a feeling it's gonna be with us awhile.
1. The Toyota dealers now have a Prius brochure, which has photos.
2. Go to http://www.evworld.com and, at the top, select "Test Drives," and then select the "Toyota Prius" tab. This includes a photo and a short video.
3. Go to http://www.evworld.com and, a the top, select "Reports," and then select "Toyota Prius Report."
4. http://www.anim8.com/prius
5. http://www.evaa.org/PubsMenu/EVs_in_the_Market/Prius/prius.html
6. http://www.steveparker.com/laautoshow.htm
7. http://www.edmund.com/edweb/news/newyork00/production.toyotaprius.html
8. http://www.driven.co.nz/reviews/prius.html
9. Broadside view: http://www.albatrossimediat.fi/etelakymen/uutiset.shtml
10. And, for fun: www.thermoanalytics.com/gallery/index.html
Toyota has greatly improved the Prius engine(s) performance since last year's U.S. test evaluations. The torque is now rated at 258 pounds from 0-400rpm. During our test ride the driver put it to the floor and "burned rubber" from a standstill, and this was with five full size passengers on board. Passing at cruising speed was also strong. The new beefed up torque is said to be nearly the same as the fullsize Toyota Avalon.
The Prius ride quality, fit and finish are superb. The EPA 52 mpg city rating provides up to four times better mileage than my 1996 V8-SUV. Under ideal conditions it should be possible to travel nearly twice as far on 10-12 gallons (600+ miles) on 1/4 the amount of gas as the V-8 SUV. Four times as far on 1/4 as much. The drag coefficiency of the Prius is .29 the same as the new Toyota Celica sports coupe.
I'm 6'2 and sat in the back. There's plenty of leg & headroom even with the front seats pushed back. It's cab forward design. The driving visibility is great. Entry and exit for passengers is very easy and comfortable with a somewhat elevated seating angle. The warranty is the best of any car I've considered purchasing. So I ordered one and now we'll see how it goes this fall and winter.
I applaud Toyota for producing the Prius. I know that they are looking out for their own future more than they are truly interested in the environment, but I have heard so many promises for "greener" cars and so little actual practical delivery to the public that I am very impressed that Toyota actually has something to deliver. It is very likely that I will buy one. The main reason is that our family is about ready for a third car. The main reason for a Prius is that it is better for the environment and I am willing to pay a little more for that. I don't like the idea of a purely electric car because they are not practical yet and I just don't have enough information on exactly what the trade-off is between my car polluting through combustion engine emissions and the electric company polluting (or creating radioactive waste) to produce the electricity for and electric car. With a hybrid, I don't plug it in so the energy consumption and emissions are much easier to evaluate. I like the Prius better than the Insight because of the automatic transmission and the seating for 5.
I wonder which is more ENERGY efficient. Using electric power or fossil fuel power. I guess it has alot to do with how electricity in your area is generated. Hydroelectric damn should produce very little pollution, but they tend to hurt eco system (damming a river change alot of things). Fossile fuel electric company probably causes more pollution than if you burn it yourself (conversion of energy is never 100% efficient, so more transfer/conversion = less efficient). Nuclear power, well, it's either clean or dirty depends on your point of view.
It is this complexity that is a major concern. Complexity adds cost, both in terms what it takes to build the the powertrain and what it takes to maintain it. Industry observers estimate that Toyota is losing something like $16,000 for every Prius it sells. This is because it costs between $35,000 and $40,000 to build, while Toyota sells the car for less than $20,000. One might call this the price of "one-ups-manship." Whatever Toyota's motives for selling the Prius at a sizable loss, there is no disputing the fact they have created a technological tour d' force that is the envy of the automotive world.
To be fair to her and to me (and to take Edmunds up on their advice), I will hurry up and test drive a Saab 9-5 and a Bimmer 3 series this weekend. I'm sure they're great cars, but no matter how I compare them all on paper, the Prius wins out. I think you have to be either a "techie" or a "greenie" to be excited by the Prius, and I have a bit of both in me.
If you buy this and go to sell it after 100,000 it will have no value because the buyer may have to put new pack in, I would think Toyota should have thought this through. What about trade in value? The dealers will know what that costs?
I also asked about software updates to the computer system no one even knew what I was talking about.
I also am not pleased that the dealers know very little about this car, I know more from my research then they do. This gives me little confidence on getting this fixed properly if there is a problem. I was not permitted to talk to any member of MGMT when I called Toyota. So if anyone from TOYOTA reads this please respond to me!! BUYER BEWARE is the catch phrase for this
A nice car with what could be some major pitfalls!
Battery pack isn't cheap, but that's not Toyota's fault. Even the tiny battery in your cordless phone cost $30+ to replace.
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth
1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
2000 Civic hatchback when I have to
I just purchased a Toyota Prius and have been wondering about Crash Test Scores. On crashtest.com I couldnt find any Prius scores for Toyota USA, although there were scores for Toyota Japan and they were not very good.
I'm hoping that the American model has been upgraded for crash test safety.
Any ideas here?
IMO, I would not be surprised if the Feds actually lowered the crash test standards for these new hybrids to help them get to market.