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Subaru Impreza WRX Wagon

15960626465115

Comments

  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    let's dissect this-- brian already handled the front limited-slip differential.

    narrower: by a wholly insignificant amount-- less than 2" at the wheels. the chassis is the same except for minor differences in the control arms and the sedan's slightly blistered fenders. this is not a relevant safety item.

    smaller rear swaybar: this actually makes the wagon SAFER, because it understeers more. an OVERWHELMING majority of cars on the road today are tuned for understeer because when people make mistakes understeer just slides wide. oversteer can easily spin the vehicle, which is in nearly all cases worse than sliding wide of your intended path.

    rear drums: yes, probably give up some braking effectiveness after the first stop. still not a significant safety difference and even if so, you're talking about the TS which is a lot less expensive-- apples to oranges.

    -Colin
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    I honestly think you might be rationalizing some of these points. A front diff would be an advantage. A wider track would be an advantage. Rear discs would be an advantage. I still contend that a larger bar would be an advantage. If these things didn't matter, then why bother putting them in the sedan? Lets remember that were not talking about different manufacturers, models or even years. A little here, a little there starts to add up. Feet are measured in inches. I still contend that it requires more and different tooling, more and different instruction/training and more and different inventory. I can understand the extra weight being offset by the extra utility but no one has offered any convincing reasons to justify these decisions that have needlessly compromised the Subaru Impreza Sport Wagons compared to the Subaru Impreza Sedans.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No offense but how many wagons do you see on the race circuit or rally circuit? Not nearly as many as there are sedans. I guess you should go after any company that doesn't even OFFER a wagon at all!

    -mike
  • WarpDriveWarpDrive Member Posts: 506
    I have yet to hear anything that shows that the wagon is less safe than a sedan. The performance of the sedan is different by an insignificant amount, that is all.
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I would like to know what your comments are based on. I've driven a Subaru wagon (Outback Sport - with no rear LSD, rear drums, smaller anti-sway bars, smaller steel wheels, and stock BFG all season tires) in all kinds of conditions. Snowstorms, off-roading and in the mountains chasing WRX's.

    Several times in the mountains the WRX owners asked me how much h.p. I had. They were amazed that the little 137 hp OBS could keep up with them in the twisties. :-)

    -Dennis
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    I think the "less safer than sedans" comment is complete hogwash since the wagons are based on a different design altogether. Different load-bearing c-pillars (unlike the Sedan that has non-folding rear seats that accomodates structural reinforcements and compensates for its weaker c-pillars) and other not-so-easily observed differences.

    But everything else he stated, certainly has a grain of truth.

    Specifically referring to the lack of a Front differential in the STi wagon. Folks, we are talking of a limited production, supposedly extreme performance Subaru that can supposedly hang with the best sportscars in the world. We are not talking of an Impreza TS or Impreza Outback Sport or even the regular WRX. So denying the front diff to such a vehicle (when the sedan version has it) was definitely not something that has much of a logical basis. Some people attach a great deal of importance to larger wheels/larger swaybars etc., but I personally would attach a much more higher importance to a Torsen or mechanical clutch-type diff in the front (as opposed to an open diff) since as we know, the lack of it takes the capability of the vehicle several notches down in terms of its ability to put the power effectively to the ground. Not something that is observable by the common joes on the street, but the STi is not a "common joe" vehicle.

    Same logic applies to the weaker brakes in the STi wagon when compared to the equivalent Sedan's larger and more capable Brembo brakes.

    Basically all of these stemmed from basing the wagon with a narrower track and the concurrent inability to comfortably accomodate 17x7.5 wheels (unlike the sedan), that in turn led to the inability to accomodate the larger (and better) Brembos. But that did not prevent Subaru from naming that vehicle an "STi" for marketing reasons. I believe quite a few of the STi Wagon parts (including most of the suspension) are interchangeable with the earlier generation STi wagon (unlike the Sedan), which means they did not spent as much time in redesigning the wagon, as they spent over the sedan.

    JMHO.

    Later...AH
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    I think a lot of it is also dependent on the driver. An STi wagon with mechanical diffs in the front and the back and with the much more powerful/tractable engine, can certainly outgun/outrun your OBS wagon anyday, assuming that the mountains are able to take advantage of the STi's power (a bit longer stretches between hairpins) and added ability from the differentials. In the real world, there would be no contest at all between an STi and the OBS.

    Note: I am not considering the weakass rear Viscous LSD that the current WRX is equipped with. I am talking of real differentials (mechanical clutch-type) like what the STi is equipped with.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Really, we're talking minimal differences in terms of handling, between the sedan and wagon. To suggest that the wagons are "less safe" is just silly, and it puts a very negative spin on the subject.

    Yes, I too wish that the wagon and sedan shared the same track. I said so when the cars were first introduced, and several times since. I've driven both the sedan and wagon (WRX sedan & wagon, RS, & Outback Sport) a number of times, and no way can you suggest that the wagon's handling is not excellent. To insert the word "safe" is totally misleading.

    BTW, according to a PDF (from SOC) I have on the '04 Canadian Imprezas, all models will get rear disk brakes. I would assume that to be true for US-spec models too.

    Bob
  • robmarchrobmarch Member Posts: 482
    ok, less performance for the wagon, sure. but not less real world usability. I agree with nearly everyone else here that the width, diff, etc. are not safety issues. I also think the drums on the TS are a performance limiter, but not a safety issue also. Not a big difference in single stop distance, just repeated fade.

    WRX sedan vs wagon: there are no safety compromises going from sedan to wagon, besides the extra weight, which is a given.

    RS sedan vs TS wagon: there's a significant price difference here which explains the lack of discs, etc. apples to oranges.

    Sorry, this is a performance issue, not a safety issue. Well, maybe a "Track Safety" issue :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A smaller rear roll bar means more understeer, which is safer. Less fun, maybe, but definitely not less safe.

    Go get an insurance quote for a WRX sedan and then a TS wagon, I bet the TS is 30% cheaper, maybe more. Even compared to an RS I bet it's 10-20% cheaper.

    I got quotes for a Legacy L and GT, and the L was $100 cheaper per year. Same engine, and the L is actually lighter. I guess the "safer" 16" wheels and bigger roll bars cost more to insure?

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    the wider track and blistered fenders are for larger tire clearance. even though both the sedan and wagon in domestic trim come with the same size tires, the sedan can fit 10-20mm wider all else being equal.

    STILL not a relevant safety thing. merry-- I'm not rationalizing faults in the Subaru. I'm responding to your *completely* irrational fears.

    -Colin
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    To my way of thinking performance and safety go hand in hand. Being better able to avoid an accident is preferable to sustaining one. No one has addressed the rationale as to why Subaru made these decisions. They don't make any sense to me. If it has a WRX badge or an STi badge it should behave accordingly. I'm not buying the smaller bar is safer any more than I'm buying the bigger bar is more dangerous. The reasons wagons aren't raced as often is due to extra weight and extra glass and increased chassis flex. But, I'm not interested in racing my wagon. Just having the best available performance/safety. The market previously didn't offer many performance wagons until Audi and Volvo stepped up to the plate. Being a Subaru site, I thought this was the appropriate place to address these issues. Perhaps I'm being petty, but (pardon the expression) God is in the details. Please remember, I bought and own the WRX Sport Wagon (manual). To the best of my knowledge Audi didn't make these compromises when they offered S4's. In fact there previous top of the line RS4 was originaly only available as a wagon (Avant), shame on them for slighting the sedan crowd. I'm only hoping to sway, Subaru from making the same mistakes again.
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    To my way of thinking performance and saftey go hand in hand. Being better able to avoid an accident is preferable to sustaining one. No one has addressed the rationale as to why Subaru made these decisions. They don't make any sense to me. If it has a WRX badge or an STI badge it should behave accordingly. I'm not buying the smaller bar is safer anymore than I'm buying the bigger bar is more dangerous. The reasons wagons aren't raced as often is due to extra weight and extra glass and increased chasis flex. But, I'm not interested in racing my wagon. Just having the best available performance/safety. The market previously didn't offer many performance wagons until Audi and Volvo stepped up to the plate. Being a Subaru site, I thought this was the appropriate place to address these issues. Perhaps I'm being petty, but (pardon the expression) God is in the details. Please remember, I bought and own the WRX Sport Wagon (manual). I'm only hoping to sway Subaru from making the same mistakes again.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I didn't realize you were Tommy Mac!!!! That's great you can actually notice the difference!

    Why not go to a driving school and learn how to drive your car faster??????

    -mike
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    No, I'm not Tommy Mac. I think most people can discern differences between the wagon and the sedan. If your offering to pay my way through driving school, I accept.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    Also, if the swaybar is a big issue for you, you could switch the wagon bar with the sedan bar. It bolts up perfectly. You should be able to get stock Sedan sway bars for around $50 from the NASIOC "for sale by owner" area.

    Later...AH
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    Thankyou for the constructive reply.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll address the rationale issue - so the wagon could be sold for $500 less. Usually wagons ADD about $800 to the price, so it's the same as a $1300 discount.

    You could get a Vishnu Stage O kit for the price break and end up quicker than a stock sedan for about the same money.

    But let me reverse this and ask you a question: would you have paid $1300 for the sway bar, fender blisters, and wider track? Honestly?

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I challenge anyone short of a race car driver to compare a wagon and sedan and NOTICE the difference between the track widths on anything short of a full scale race track. No one I know who posts on here short of maybe Colin, could tell the difference.

    -mike
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    AH - I wasn't claiming that my OBS could hang with an STi. Only that in real world (spirited mountain driving), I was able to hang with the WRX sedans and that several drivers were surprised that I had only 137 h.p.

    paisan - Agreed. The minor difference isn't something that someone would notice anyway.

    merrycynic - Upgrade to a bigger rear sway bar, then report back to us. ;-)
    Yeah, what does that guy Colin know. He's a Noob! :-D

    -Dennis
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    Juice, I think the insurance difference is due to the type of people more likely to buy a wagon than the type of people more likely to buy a sedan, it's probably the people not the car that effects the price of insurance of the wagon vs. the sedan. As for the $1300 price difference if Subaru didn't have the added expense of tooling, training and maintaining two different sets of parts, that price might come down significantly. It could have a positive effect on the price of the sedan as well. Obviously Subaru thought it worth the cost for the sedan. If the AH is correct (I have no reason to doubt him) Subaru's decision has dominoed to all but guaranteed that the wagon would be further compromised as an STi. Interestingly enough, AH and I seem to have the same priorities.
    Colin, I'm devoid of "completely irrational fears". As I said previously, I posted this not out of fear but as a complaint hoping to sway Subaru from doing it again in the future. I bought the car knowing full well what I was getting into. I say Subaru's decision was "irrational". Only Juice has offered anything close to a legitimate defense for Subaru's decision.
    Paisan, I'm up to the challenge, you set it up.
    One thing I've learned these past couple of days, is that Subaru sure has the knack when it comes to developing customer loyalty!
  • WarpDriveWarpDrive Member Posts: 506
    ....on a slalom and on the road during the Subaru launch event. The differences are so minimal that I think it might have been in my mind.
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    Juice, I think the insurance difference is due to the type of people more likely to buy a wagon than the type of people more likely to buy a sedan, it's probably the people not the car that effects the price of insurance of the wagon vs. the sedan. As for the $1300 price difference if Subaru didn't have the added expense of tooling, training and maintaining two different sets of parts, that price might come down significantly. It could have a positive effect on the price of the sedan as well. Obviously Subaru thought it worth the cost for the sedan. If the AH is correct (I have no reason to doubt him) Subaru's decision has dominoed to all but guaranteed that the wagon would be further compromised as an STi. Interestingly enough, AH and I seem to have the same priorities.
    Colin, I'm devoid of "completely irrational fears". As I said previously, I posted this not out of fear but as a complaint hoping to sway Subaru from doing it again in the future. I bought the car knowing full well what I was getting into. I say Subaru's decision was "irrational". Only Juice has offered anything close to a legitimate defense for Subaru's decision.
    Paisan, I'm up to the challenge, you set it up.
    One thing I've learned these past couple of days, is that Subaru sure has the knack when it comes to developing customer loyalty!
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety articles I posted links to are not valid sources for noting safety in vehicles?


    All Subaru's are very 'able'. Could you elaborate more on your definition of 'able' as referred to in post #3101 - /direct/view/.eec8f4a.eec8e1b/3100


    -Brian

  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    I assume that your question was for me. I never said that the Wagon wasn't safe, if it wasn't I wouldn't have bought it. It's just not as safe as it could be. I based my assertion on the premise that a better designed/equipped car can provide better handling performance and a car with better handling performance is safer. A narrower track (especially on a car that already has a higher center of gravity) is more likely to roll over.. Disc brakes (especially on a heavier car) are more likely to provide consistent braking performance. As for the size of the sway bar arguments can be made for both. If a car under steers too much it may prevent avoidance of an accident. If it over steers it could create an accident. I have to agree that the average driver is more likely to get into trouble with over steering, but I tend to think that anyone attracted to a WRX or especially an STi is not your average driver. Subaru seems to think it safe enough for the sedans. According to others at this site the narrower track also prevents the addition of even better equipment that could be able to provide better handling performance and therefore be even safer. To more specifically answer your question: less able to prevent roll over, less able to brake consistently, and less able to steer neutraly. I'm sure I wouldn't have bothered with this if it weren't for the obvious fact that that the parts are available and there doesn't seem to be any good reason not to use them. In fact no matter how insignificant or petty (unless of course your the one that couldn't maintain road contact,steer around or stop in time) the differences may seem, it still seems silly to have to spend extra money and time developing two designs, tooling, parts inventory and training guidelines when one could be done more efficiently with better results. Mind you I don't care for the "blister look" but if it allows for better design/parts and performance I'm for it. BTW, thanks for the info and convenience of your post.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    quote:I challenge anyone short of a race car driver to compare a wagon and sedan and NOTICE the difference between the track widths on anything short of a full scale race track. No one I know who posts on here short of maybe Colin, could tell the difference

    on the track I could tell the difference between the two if the sedan had the max tires it could clear and the wagon the same-- I could use the extra 20mm or so of tire.

    with the same tires on each, no way.

    switching gears---
    quote: I never said that the Wagon wasn't safe, if it wasn't I wouldn't have bought it. It's just not as safe as it could be.

    You may have the SLIGHTEST of technical points here, but what we are all trying to tell is you that you are worrying (or debating) about the absurd. The *difference* in safety between the vehicles is utterly insignificant. The real safety features used in a crash are the same.

    quote: I based my assertion on the premise that a better designed/equipped car can provide better handling performance and a car with better handling performance is safer.

    Again, you could possibly have a valid technical point but we're talking about that last few percentages of performance. If the wagon is 97% as capable as the sedan, but the average driver can only harness 50% (or less!) of the car's capability, have you lost any safety? I will point out just once more than understeer is safer. The wagon IS safer.

    Find a friend with a sedan and take both cars to a large empty parking lot. Start at 40MPH and make a very sharp turn, and initially keep your foot steady on the gas. After starting the turn, lift abruptly off the gas.

    Betcha the sedan wags its tail FAR more than the wagon. That's the oversteer, or reduced understeer, that the larger rear bar is providing. Do this right, at a higher speed and higher cornering effort, and the sedan will spin. You might be able to get the wagon to spin-- but the sedan's rear end will always come around far faster.

    Stock vs. stock of course.

    -Colin
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I love all the web-racers out there :)

    People who live in the theoretical world, where their little #s and technical figures that they get from websites rule their lives. In the off-road world we call em Web-wheelers, people who love to talk about theoretical aspects of their 4x4s but rarely if ever go out to the REAL world!

    Same goes for web-racers, theory theory theory, track width, sway bars, etc. etc. Rather than actually getting out there and auto-xing or tracking their cars and seeing how LITTLE difference the minor technical details make!

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    quote:I challenge anyone short of a race car driver to compare a wagon and sedan and NOTICE the difference between the track widths on anything short of a full scale race track. No one I know who posts on here short of maybe Colin, could tell the difference

    on the track I could tell the difference between the two if the sedan had the max tires it could clear and the wagon the same-- I could use the extra 20mm or so of tire.

    with the same tires on each, no way.


    I agree.

    -mike
  • saintvipersaintviper Member Posts: 177
    We should all listen to Mike because his real world experience of driving his XT6 in an empty parking lot at 30mph makes him an expert both racing and the WRX.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    FYI I've driven @ Limerock too and drive 40-50K miles a year. As well as auto-xed several WRXs, Legacies, Outbacks, OBSs, Hondas, Pontiacs to name a few.

    -mike
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    We should all listen to Mike because his real world experience of driving his XT6 in an empty parking lot at 30mph makes him an expert both racing and the WRX.

    That was a real low-blow !! :-))

    Later...AH
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    are we splitting hair?

    The only difference I can tell between the two is when I'm in a Wagon, I know it isn't a Sedan.

    -Dave
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    cynic: I compared an L wagon to a GT wagon, and the rates for the L were cheaper. I asked why and they said it was related to the claim rate.

    So more claims for the one with 16" with 55 series tires and big sway bars, vs. the vanilla L. And the GT costs more, so I doubt buyers on that car are younger than the L, probably older actually.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's add a humorous twist to this.

    The wagon is less safe because you have your tool box in the cargo area and forget to use the cover. Then you have projectiles in case of any collision. There are also 2 more windows and more flying glass if you wreck. And people you beat off the line are so shocked that they have to get close to see what just smoked them off the line...

    -juice
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    No harm to ego if you get beat at the line. "Hey, it's a wagon. What do you expect?" ;-)

    believe me juice, I was thinking 'bout the 3 ton hyrdraulic jack that was back there when I rolled. :D

    -Dave
  • robmarchrobmarch Member Posts: 482
    if you're driving on public roads at the point where the difference between the WRX wagon and WRX sedan are noticable, you're way over the safe driving line.

    and, the disc and drum thing is not relevant on the WRX or STi. Subaru gave us the RS at a higher spec and higher price point than the TS wagon...they're not direct competitors. Would I rather have the discs? sure. Is there a real world difference? maybe a couple of feet from 60mph. primarily fade resistance.

    I honestly can't believe you're still clinging to the saftey complaint. The WRX and STi wagon have narrower tracks than the sedans because they share body work with the outback sport and TS wagons. The rear sway bar was balanced to be acceptable both unloaded and with cargo in the back.

    There is no real world safety difference between the WRX wagon and sedan, besides the extra weight incurred by adding the extra glass and metal. period.

    Again, if you're driving to the point where you could notice the differences in track and swaybar on public roads, you're doing a disservice to other drivers on the road.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    quote: if you're driving on public roads at the point where the difference between the WRX wagon and WRX sedan are noticable, you're way over the safe driving line.

    true and a good point, but I was describing the handling of each because during emergency manuevers you are testing the limits of the vehicle's handling. (you'll encounter your own limits first of course.)

    -Colin
  • robmarchrobmarch Member Posts: 482
    Understood, thanks for your inputs.

    If I paraphrase you correctly, it's your opinion that the wagon would be _safer_ in emergency manuvers. It's my opinion that there's no difference in normal street driving. Therefore, any negative differences are limited to track performance, which is out of the realm of safety concerns, in my opinion.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    right-- that's a reasonable conclusion to come to.

    -Colin
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    during emergency manuevers you are testing the limits of the vehicle's handling. (you'll encounter your own limits first of course.)

    -Colin


    So so true.

    -Dave
  • corkfishcorkfish Member Posts: 537
    Driving is real skill that requires extensive training. Much like someone learning to fly an F18.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Too bad the DMVs across the country don't realize that. You'd think some drivers got their license over the phone!

    -juice
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Member Posts: 340
    Juice, Your comparison was between two different price points. There are so many variables that actuaries use to determine rates that it's unlikely that either one of us will actually get to the real reasons that effect any particular rate.
    Robmarch, an excellent point regarding loaded and unloaded weight and one I hadn't previously considered. Then again the wider track of the sedan might make the bigger bar more appropriate.
    Colin, thank you for understanding my point regarding emergency maneuvers. As for your suggestions on how to induce over steer, I am well acquainted with it and I'm going to assume that it was intended with sincerity.
    Paisan, with out "all the little #'s and figures" you probably wouldn't have a car to talk about or a place to do it. By the way, not that it's any of your business but, been there, done that and now I have more pressing things to do in life.
    I think that the sedan even with the bigger bar is still biased towards under steer, perhaps not as much as most cars but biased towards under steer none the less. I believe skid pad tests will confirm my point regarding sedan vs. wagon. Then again the differences could be attributed to the extra weight.
    Perhaps the word "reprehensible" in my original post was over the top. But we are talking about potential performance in a car marketed as a performance car and it's safety implications. I still think it a "silly" decision on Subaru's part to have two sets of designs and parts. If they had to have two sets of designs and parts (I can't imagine why) considering the the extra weight and hight of the wagon vs. the sedan perhaps they should have reversed the idea? I think that those who made suggestions regarding my driving skills (or lack there of) and instructions may have been a bit presumptuous. I was all set to buy an STi wagon if it becomes available, now I'm not so sure. It's obvious that most of you think the the differences are too insignificant to worry about. I stand by my original opinion. I think AH's post shows where one bad decision has further consequences. At this point I am tired of my own redundancy. Unless someone has a new perspective, I'm prepared to let it go and move on.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I also think it's silly, but for a totally different reason. Not safety related at all, in fact. It's having to produce and stock spare parts for 2 different setups when one would have been fine.

    I'd like to see Subaru standardize in other ways - make 4 disc brakes standard on every model. They already offer AWD and ABS, so discs would fall in line with that thinking.

    It's amazing that such a tiny car company, with 1% overall market share, offers so many variants in the US, and even more in Japan.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    yes merrycynic, I was earnestly attempting to explain how to induce oversteer in a safe place and how the sedan and wagon would behave differently.

    -Colin
  • kevin111kevin111 Member Posts: 991
    I do not see an issue with the two WRXs and the TS vs. the RS.

    There are 2 models of Impressa Sedans and 3 for the Wagons. To make the TS have the same options and price-point as the RS would infringe more on sales of the OBS. By making the TS a lower costing and accessorized vehicle, it sorts out nicely - TS, OBS, and WRX for the Wagon.

    In terms of the track of the wagon compared with the Sedan for the Impressa, have no idea. The only thing I can think of is that Subaru wanted to carry over some of the designs of the older model to the newer one, thus saving significantly on design costs by making it slightly narrower in the back.

    Even though the Sedans and Wagons do have different dimensions in the back, they have virtually identical interiors, and they share most components. I am assuming there were other reasons besides sharing components for the reason for the narrower track, such as what I mentioned above, or else Subaru would have given both models the same track length, like in the IS300. I am sure there was a cost issue involved in another manner besides sharing components (might have been a structural rigidty item, due to the open box platform in the back)
  • WarpDriveWarpDrive Member Posts: 506
    mentioned something about the wagon's track being narrower because of payload and towing capacity. I didn't think much of it at the time and didn't inquire any further.
  • ponmponm Member Posts: 139
    I auto-x my wrx wagon all the time and it does great, and this whole thing about the wagon is less capable, or less safe is incorrect. A car is only as a good as its driver, and I do believe one of the best performing wrxs in solo2 is a wrx wagon. Besides, if you drive safe you will never need to test the full potential of your car. That's what the track is for.
  • robmarchrobmarch Member Posts: 482
    looks like the next gen design still differentiates the wagon from the sedan in track. I think the flares and wider track would be a nice addition to the wagon, but understand the economies involved, and that it might not appeal to the outback sport buyers.

    Still a great performance wagon at a great price.
  • texasextexasex Member Posts: 3
    I'm considering a new 2003 Wagon. I found an internet sales manager that is offering 2% over invoice. Is that a good/fair deal or should I ask for a better offer?


    TIA

This discussion has been closed.