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Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...
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Comments
I have a 100K bumper 2 bumper VW extended warranty on the car. I'm starting to wonder if this will be the first car where I didn't get my money back on the policy many times over. Naah.
And now, back to the subject of the Best Hot Hatch. Thanks for your participation.
Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
I'm really surprised the Mini didn't get onto the 10-best. Reading MT's Car of the Year issue, it seemed like the editors barely chose the G35 over the Mini.
The reason the Focus won was due to the combination of the good showing of the compacts combined with the SVT Focus (bunched in together). They really liked the SVT. With this in mind, I forgot why the Protege did not beat it out due to the strong showing of the Protege and the Mazdaspeed that is out.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As for hot hatches - Acura and Honda Si for refinement. Other's may be faster, but not as refined. Celica also very refined, but shifter not as good as RSX, and I find the 180 HP rather useless, unless you're always 5K rpm+ driving around in the city... Worse, you can get two extra doors, lots more space for a lower price in the Matrix!
Civic SI and RSX base - surprisingly noisy (engine and tires). Not the car to take on the extended highway drive.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
IMO, not too many truly "refined" HH's are available in the USA, such as the Audi S3, and BMW 325ti. OTOH, the MB C230K is available here, and is selling below sticker. Mine's now a year old and I'm quite satisfied with it.
Celica also very refined...
Obviously, a big "YMMV" applies to all of these as to what different people consider 'refined'. Personally, I don't consider any vehicle to be really refined if it has a seat that is uncomfortable for an average adult to sit in. This means that the Celica is out because of its cramped back seat.
...and I find the 180 HP rather useless, unless you're always 5K rpm+ driving around...
A very old saying is that "...people buy horsepower, but drive torque." The lack of respectable torque was essentially why I declined buying a BMW 318ti when they first came out in 1995. In general, "stroker" motors tend to be good at delivering torque, as does also forced air systems (turbo or supercharger).
-hh
With the celica, however, Toyota made the crossover to the high-power cams at too high an rpm relative to the redline. They need to bring the crossover down 1000 rpm or so, then it would be the best HH deal out there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Unfortunately, don't have the cash to buy higher end vehicles. So, I bought my brand new 2002 RSX base (with leather) for C$ 24,300 + 15% tax. For my purchasing criteria, I looked for fun factor, comfort for the front two passengers, < C$ 25K, and if absolutely necessary, force fit some passengers in the back when absolutely necessary. Was salivating for a used Miata, but that car can't even fit two golf bags....
If you drive a stick, neither matters cause you just don't let it get into that dead zone.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The S3 is on it's way i hear. But I am not expecting it to really fit this category. It is only supposed to be marginally warmer than the current GTi, and I doubt that will cut it.
I would argue that not very many of these hatches are hot enough. The Mini Cooper S comes closest for its steering feel. RSX-S is in there for it's engine. GT-S despite all its shortcomings is pretty sharp. All the rest are pretty soft and comfy. Not hot hatch stuff IMO.
revdrluv - After driving the Si for a while, I don't really like driving the GTI anymore (a friend has one). I don't like the body roll, and I hate the shift feel. However, refinement is sort of subjective. I think the Si is the better driving package, it's just not as luxurious.
I would definately be behind the wheel of an Si for that price.
If you would really be interested, I'm sure they still have some in stock. Last time I was there (3 months ago?) they still had about 12 of them in all colors.
I love the car. Is it the hottest hatch? Not without better tires. Is it the best deal for the money, definitely. (Although definitely NOT at MSRP)
Starting price (prior to negotiation) for brand new 2002 Si C$ 21,500. So, I figure I could of bought it for C$ 21,000+15% tax. However, I ended up with my brand new 2002 RSX Premium at C$ 24,300+15% tax. So, about US$ 2,400 difference for the RSX leather vs. Si.
Brand new Focus SVT was advertised in paper for C$ 21K, so it might be a consideration if there's any in your area.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Your Mileage May Vary". Its been slang on the Internet/USENET for a long time as a friendly way of saying that individual opinions vary.
By the way, I agree that the BMW, Audi S3 and Mercedes would be more refined than the Civic and RSX base. However, I was only comparing to cars in similar price class such as Focus SVT, GTI, etc.
I find that this is a really hard price segment to pin down what people consider its upper & lower limits to be.
From what I've seen, it seems to concentrate around two different price points. The first falls around $15-17K, which...guessing...I'd say is probably the more typical price point for younger drivers who are getting their first "nice" new car. The second seems to fall just a bit higher, around $20-22K, which is approximately the average new car (all types) price.
The only question from there is what to do with the exceptions that are out of this price range, and the general problem is that there's not enough of them to make up their own category, so they become orphans. Currently, is there really anything other than the C230K that's available in the $25-30K price range that's actually imported to the US Marketplace?
Unfortunately, don't have the cash to buy higher end vehicles.
Understood. Prices are always going to be the main break point for buyers, but overall, the reason I mentioned it is because of my personal perceptions of what I think of when I hear a product described as "refined" and in general, I frankly don't see it for cars that are below average in price (IIRC, the average new car price these days is $20-22K). Now please understand that I'm not saying that there isn't a "best of" for a particular segment who's clearly better than the rest, but merely that for the sub-$25K market, I don't I've encountered anything that meets what "refined" personally means to me. Obviously, this is another YMMV.
Insofar as why I say this, most of my opinion is based on the fleet rental cars that I'm driving 1-2x/month. Some of them are far enough removed to be called downright "rough", even though they may be good for their price segments. You tend to notice these things more as the distances from the airport increases: for example, I can do a 150 miles (one way) drive in my personal car (C230K) pretty much standing on my head, but recently in a Neon, I ended up taking ~3 rest breaks just because of how "unrefined" that car was, even though Missouri highways are far less crowded than home here in NJ and in much better shape.
Was salivating for a used Miata, but that car can't even fit two golf bags....
I have a friend in Philadelphia with one, and he's able to pack two sets of twin scuba tanks in his, along with his drysuit, regulators, fins, etc,...the whole Northeast Wreck Diver gear set. Of course the only caveat is that the 2nd set of twin tanks rides shotgun in the passenger seat, and he's got to temporarily lower the top to get them in :-)
-hh
As far as hatches go, the C230K and the GTi VR6 are the only ones we can buy that I would call refined. Some people might try and lump the IS300 sportcross and others into this category, but I don't.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Ion (although technically more than 2 doors)
Civic
Cavalier
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
type s but again no auto. Why don't the mfgrs let the customer decide what kind of trans they want? It seems to me that every car I really like, i.e. Honda S2000 Honda Civic Si, etc etc do not come with an automatic. With the advent of the five speed automatics there seems little reason to want a 6 speed especially in traffic. Plus I think the autos are so good now that they will outlast a clutch and syncros on a manual. How do you cope with the manual after having the automatic? I looked at the Cougar several years ago, and it had no power and the build quality seemed pretty bad. Another case of a good design poorly executed
Automatics are for 3 kinds of people.
1. Disabled
2. Old ( I mean over 80), I have seen a few 70 year olds rowing through gears though
3. People who only want the car to take from point A to point B with no other involvment. It also allows them to talk on the phone and drink coffee at the same time as they are driving in the left lane blocking everyone from getting there in a timely manner. But then they don't need the extra performance offered by the sportier versions.
I drive from CT to NJ everyday, and I have to say I enjoy driving my Si over Auto CR-V. In stop and go, you just leave it in 1st or second and play with the throttle. Allot less tension in the calves that I was getting from driving auto. In auto you have to constantly switch form gas to brake in stop and go, in manual you just let off the gas and the car slows down, occasionally I do have to press the clutch and step on the brakes.
I just wish Corvette, the epifamy of sports cars, only came in manual, Chevy actually charges you an extra $600 to get manual in the vette.
I've got one of each. I use my auto for my 2 hours commuting in Jersey traffic and I've got my manual convertible for the days I want to have fun. I used to be in that "autos suck" camp, but I've realized I can have the best of both worlds when I need it.
Manumatics don't count? Geez, I hate to think of all those Ferrari drivers who are "so disconnected from the road". Brings a tear to my eye.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Secondly, when did you see a ferrai being driven the way it was meant to be driven? Most of them are trailer queens. I see a lot of them in Greenwich, being trucked around town on a flat bed. Rarely do I see one on the road redlining all 12 of its cylinders. Majority of people who buy thise high performance cars, and BMW's as well, buy them for the status quoe they carry. Most of these people wouldn't even know if their (ferrari/lambo/bimmer/ insert high price brand) if their cars had a V8 or a V12, Vanos or no Vanos. The only reason they bought it, because they could afford to buy it and to show the (neighbors/friends/family) that they can drop $300,000 on a car.
I only know a few people that actually take their M3's to the track and drive them the way they were meant to be driven.
I agree though: it is sad to see powerful cars granny-driven, being passed by Geo Metros. Many owners could make their purchases much cheaper by just buying 'badge horsepower' as they never use the real thing.
And yes, manually shifted slushboxes are different from sequential shifting manuals. Very different. Without a clutch, it just isn't the same. This isn't to say I don't enjoy a good automatic on my family-mobile but for my fun-mobile it has to be clutched.
Long live the stick!
Yes, ferrari still uses a clutch, but not one that you operate. F1 style paddle shifters are becoming a very popular choice for high-performance car manufacturers (and have been around quite some time now). There are even those that peform BETTER than a manually operated manual tranny. Granted, I know that's not what we are talking about here, we are talking about, as hpulley pointed out, manually shifted slushboxes. I just wanted to make the point that a car doesn't have to be fully manual to be a good driver's car (just the mainstream ones that most of us can afford).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Anyway, hot hatches are still largely unavailable in the US. Europe has them. The Civic Type R and the Focus RS amongst many other excellent European brands. They get the good stuff. We get hatch excuses (except for the RSX Type S which is essentially the same as the Civic Type R).
I wish (BMW) they made a hatch like the 318 of not so many years ago - only with the jewel-like straight 6.
As for hot hatches here, there are only 2 as far as I can tell. The VR6 GTI and the Mercedes C230K, with 6-sp. of course. The Acura/Civic renditions are souless and the Focus is junk!