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Toyota 4WD systems explained

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Comments

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Why do you think low range gearing denotes 4WD?

    About a hundred years ago, maybe longer, ALL 4WD vehicles had a low range included. There is absolutely nothing about ANY AWD/4WD/2WD wheel drive system that "requires" or somehow facilitates a low range gearbox nor is there anything about having a low range that requires or facilitates any drive system.

    "4WD = Low range and High Range gearing.
    AWD = Only High Range gearing."

    The about statement is far too simplistic and horribly confusing, especially considering the myriad of drivetrain designs on the market today. One size, description, no longer fits all.

    Many long years ago 4WD systems were principally (only??) used as farm vehicles or off-road vehicles. In both of those venues it is oftentimes quite useful to have a low range gearbox. In your favor I will say that if you had a low range gearbox of then course 4WD would oftentimes make it even more useful.

    But that was all yesterday's news.

    pscheck: Go read the Sequoia shop manual.

    "Part-time 4WD: No centre differential...."

    If you NEVER drive it on a high traction surface maybe this would work. But in point of fact I don't know of any modern day 4WD system without a centre diff'l, it may be locked at the moment but if you want to run the vehicle on dry pavement for any reasonable distance your 4Wd vehicle had better have a centre diff'l or something that serves as a really close substitute.

    "Permanent 4WD:...."

    The above description would mean instant conversion to one wheel drive the instant any one wheel lost traction. Jack it up, lock any three wheels into position start the engine, put it into gear and let'r RIP. The one unrestrained wheel will spin mightily limiting the engine torque to the level required to spin that one wheel mightily. But factually, you are correct, the three other wheels will be getting torque exactly equal to that one spinning wheel.
  • trout14trout14 Member Posts: 19
    I copied this from an earlier post, #367 to be exact, and this is a good explanation for me to understand. Can someone explain then the difference between a 1999 model and this new system? Also, what would happen if 1.both front tires lost all traction, 2. both back tires lost all traction, and 3. if either side, (left or right) lost all traction, and how would each system respond. Obviously I still have a lot to learn. Currently drive a Trooper and only know that is a part-time system.

    Post #367
    "The 2000 LC has all time four wheel drive with open differentials in the front, the rear, and the center. If there were no traction control, this would actually be a pretty poor system. If you jacked up a single tire, 100% of the torque would be transfered to the spinning tire. The vehicle would go nowhere.

    The locking center differential (which works in both 4H and 4L) effectively forces a split of the torque to the front and rear. But again, if one front and one rear tire were spinning they would absorb 100% of the torque and the vehicle would be stuck.

    Add the ActiveTrac traction control system and you have a very effective 4 wheel drive. The computer uses the ABS system (which senses wheel velocity) to add resistance to spinning wheel(s). This effectively returns torque back to the wheels that have traction. ActiveTrac is enabled in both 4H and 4L (I've observed this and it doesn't make sense that it would be disabled in 4L).

    The LC also has 4H and 4L. 4L essentially gives you a better gear ratio for heavy duty climbing, etc.

    The LC has a VSC system which is essentially and anti-skid mechanism that uses both engine throttle control and the ABS system. If a skid is detected, the engine throttle is manipulated and the ABS is applied appropriately to defeat the skid and return control to the driver.

    VSC is disabled when the center differential is locked and/or when the driver shifts into 4L. Why? The throttle control mechanims would be self-defeating when the LC is stuck and you are trying to provide lots of power to the wheels to either rock the vehicle or grind out of the mud.

    I'm guessing that in most situations 4H, ActiveTrac, plus a locked center diff would be more than adequate. 4L would only be required when you're stuck and climbing steep grades."
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    If your're not going off-road rock climbing, or live on a ranch in North central MT (Everson), or you know of circumstances wherein you will need 4L, then don't consider it a necessity.

    Or you plan to pull a greyhound bus out of the ditch on Steven Pass.`
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    If both front tires lost traction, brakes would be applied to both front tires. The would fool the open center after a brief delay and bias most (if not all) the power to the rear. The same is true if both rear tires were on ice.

    Now, if both right side tires lost traction, brakes would only be applied on those tires. The center differential would be unaffected because available torque would be unchanged but the front and rear diff would send power to the left side.

    The 2003 Runner is almost identical except the center differential is not torsen which means it will always keep some power front AND rear.
  • pschreckpschreck Member Posts: 524
    If a transfer case with low range gearing isn't the difference between AWD and Full-Time 4WD, what is?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    First of all I don't know of any road-going passenger vehicles with (JUST) full-time 4WD systems in production today.

    Do you?

    Now, if we talk about multi-mode drive systems then I would say that almost all part-time 4WD systems have a Full-Time 4WD(sub)mode, some even have a 2WD mode, usually RWD.

    The major difference, possibly the only difference, is the automaticity of the AWD in "switching" between modes. Switching being a very subjective term in this case. Sometimes the transition is "seamless".

    In order to make four wheel drive systems acceptable to the "masses" the problem associated with driveline damage in part-time four wheel drive mode had to be eliminated.

    And that is what brought AWD to the forefront.

    The way I see it the only difference between 4WD and AWD is the fact that 4WD is ALWAYS manually selected multi-mode, full-time, and part-time.
  • pschreckpschreck Member Posts: 524
    What about the V8 4Runner? There is no 2WD mode and it has a low range transfer case.

    I believe the Range Rovers are also Full Time 4WD with no provision for 2WD.

    I guess this is Permanent 4WD.

    I would have to say that to have Full-Time 4WD by Drew's definition, you can't JUST have 4WD but must have a provision for 2WD also.

    I'm still confused as to your definition of AWD. To me, if there is no transfer case and JUST a center differential, then you have AWD. Would you agree with that?
  • servo_fanservo_fan Member Posts: 15
    I'm trying to get an idea on the capabilities of the '97 4Runner I own. It is obviously a part time only system and as far as I know has no VSC, ATRAC, limited slip, etc, correct?

    A "part time" system was defined as not having a center differential and that both axles turn at the same rate. Is this the equivilent of locking the center differential on newer 4Runners? Does locking the center differential on new 4Runners lock the axles together?

    Also, just how good of an off road vehicle is the '97 4Runner since it doesn't have all of this new technology? If 2 wheels are spinning, (1 front & 1 rear, or 1 right & 1 left), wouldn't the '97 be stuck? I don't have a locking rear diff. Thank you.
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Ok...the 4Runner V8 4wd is simple. At ALL times, SOME power is applied to the front AND rear axles. Period. AWD or Full-time, whatever! It is full-time in my book. Period. Yes, it does vary it's torque distribution depending on slippage/cornering/etc. You can say, it is FULL-TIME with AWD characteristics. Period. My opinion.

    BMW X5 is AWD with full-time characteristics. Like above, i usually associate full-time 4wd with LOW RANGE GEAR.

    4Runner V6 4wd is also simple. When in 4wd (pushing the "4wd" button), it acts like my above description. HOWEVER, it has a 2wd option. Period.

    These terminology is used everywhere with different meanings. Bottom line, you have to communicate in a way that makes sense to another person. If you go strictly by ONE definition, not everyone will understand (example: above posts).

    All this explanation just only confuses more people. It sure is confusing the heck out of me!

    Like WWEST, i do agree on one point. PART-TIME 4wd has a center differential...it must have one.

    Characteristics of Part-time 4wd:
    1. Cannot use 4wd on dry land.
    2. Usually 2wd until you shift into 4-HI or 4-LO.
    3. Have to shift into 4-HI and 4-LO (again, cannot use on dry land).
    4. Once you shift into 4-HI or 4-LO, center diff is LOCK.
    5. To drive on dry land, you have to shift back to 2wd.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Do you understand the title?

    Me neither.

    To my knowledge there is no passenger vehicle in production today that has "only" part-time 4WD.

    If there were such a vehicle in production it is true that it would not have, need, a center Diff'l.

    But because most of us need the utility of both, full-time and part-time, most 4WD vehicles do have a center diff'l for full-time 4WD mode but with the ability to lock the center diff'l in times of need for part-time 4WD.

    The above, I believe, adequately describes what historically at least constitutes a 4WD vehicle.

    Now, you can optionally throw in a 2WD (RWD) mode by uncoupling the front driveline, and/or you can throw in a low range gearbox for those times you might need to tow a greyhound bus out of the ditch in the dead of winter.

    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

    AWD: when it comes down to it all you have here is a combination full/part-time 4WD that has some gimmick or other that allows:

    1. The front and rear drivelines to be uncoupled when necessary, turning or hard braking, for instance.

    Or:

    2. An open center diff'l but with some way to apportion torque across that center diff'l in adverse roadbed conditions.

    Two of the latter methods now in common use are, a viscous clutch/coupling across the center diff'l, (RX, HL) or the use of brake modulation (ML, Sequoia).

    The really nice thing about the brake modulation method is that you get a "virtual" front and rear LSD thrown in for free. No extra weight of a VC nor LSDs, and no possibility of these virtual devices breaking down. Of course you can expect to see your brake pads wear out about 5-10% sooner, but that's a lot less expensive than repairing/replacing a VC and LSDs.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Both my Jeeps had 2WD (rear) 4WD (full-time) 4WD (part-time) and separately high/low gearbox ranges. I don't now remember if the low range was restricted to only one, two, or was available in all three drive modes. While I remember trying it out once or twice I never had occassion to need it for either Jeep.

    Obviously low range would find its most/best use in part-time mode, but I don't now remember if it was actually restricted to that mode.
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Jeep Wrangler has, BY DEFINITION, a PART-TIME 4wd system. Period. Check with any sane off-roader...it is part-time. I don't believe you can shift into 4-LO without being in 4wd.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    My Jeeps, both Cherokee Limited's, had a Part-time 4WD system, but with a full-time 4WD (sub?)mode, so I could drive around on the public highways in good weather (that means rain here in the Seattle area) but still with the confidence of 4WD.
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    But, you claim that no car/SUV have a true part-time system. Jeep Wrangler is one.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    My claim is no vehicle has ONLY a part-time drive system.
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Of course, no vehicle has a "part-time drive system." Once you shift the Jeep Wrangler in 4wd on slippery surface, it is "full-time". EVERYONE knows that! HOWEVER, the Wrangler still has a PART-TIME 4WD SYSTEM, by definition. You're too much into semantics! Stop that! It does not help anyone nor make your explanation any clearer. Stop making odd nitpicks!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    What I've been trying to say is anytime you buy a vehicle with "part-time" 4WD you get some form of "full-time" drive thrown in for "free". Most typically this "other" drive form is "full-time" 4WD since all you have to do for that is unlock the center diff'l.

    Except for maybe a few farm vehicles I don't know of any road-going vehicles with ONLY part-time 4WD (part-time 4WD ONLY!!!), that would make them useless except on slippery surfaces.
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Maybe i assumed wrong about you...i thought you knew what kind of 4wd system is on the Wrangler (since you did own two jeeps).

    You canNOT use the Wrangler on dry land when it is in 4wd. It must be on a slippery surface to allow wheelspin when in 4wd. On dry land, you must shift back to 2wd to avoid binding. That would meet YOUR criteria, right?? This part-time 4wd system is the same for: Isuzu Rodeo (Rodeo Sport), Honda Passport, Nissan Xterra/Frontier, Toyota Tundra, Tacoma, most trucks (except Chevy/GMC). As you can see, this PART-TIME 4WD system is more common than you stated, not just farm tractors! Geez!

    So, what are YOU talking about?!
  • pschreckpschreck Member Posts: 524
    intmed: I agree with most of what you are saying except about Part-Tme 4WD having a center differential. It's the lack of a center diff that makes it useless on dry roads.

    wwest: I'm not sure what you are saying. All the Part-Time systems that I am aware of are just that, Part-Time. If you are refering to Auto-4WD , you can't classify that as Full-time. It doesn't have a center diff. If you are refering to a Full-Time system that can lock the center diff, then it is still a Full-Time or Permanent 4WD system with a locking center diff which you want to call a "Part-Time system with Full-Time characteristics".
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Now I think I get it....

    You are talking about a part-time 4WD system wherein the other drive "form" is RWD(2WD). In that case you are right, there is no center diff'l, no need for one.

    But if you read my posts (#1004) more carefully you will see that I allowed for that possibility. I said there was no vehicle that had part-time 4WD ONLY. "ONLY" meaning no capability of driving on a high traction surface without driveline damage.
  • pschreckpschreck Member Posts: 524
    I will try to answer your questions although I am no 4Runner expert.

    I believe your system is a Part-Time type. Don't run it on dry or, in my opinion, wet roads. Snow covered or offroad is safe. Yes the axles are locked together when in 4WD. Yes the same effect as locking a center diff if I'm not mistaken.

    Yes, your '97 is still a great offroader.

    As for your last question, I'm going to say yes, you would be stuck without a locking rear.

    Again, I'm no expert. Where's idahodoug?
  • idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    ...is trying not to get a headache from this debate. I've done a bit of offroad training for my corporate clients, and have been a serious offroader for just under 15 years. But reading this stuff makes me want to ignore it because it seems that there are so many misconception regarding the way power is transmitted in vehicles that it would take about 10 inches of post to correct before even beginning to address the issues.

    When I was a vehicle Product Planner, we simply divided the various systems as AWD or 4WD by whether they had a low range or not. This was a neat system that was simple and coincided with the target market's intended use. Obviously "our" AWD buyer was not planning to go offroad, so they got a street oriented system. The 4WD buyer got a more rugged selectable system that had a low range for offroad use, or for pulling a large boat up a slippery boat ramp. The various sub types you guys are discussing fit nicely within these categories even now despite there being many more flavors of each today. Taking it further enters the fray and would take me away from watching the Baghdad Barbecue (looks like Saddam may already be pushing up daisies, BTW).....

    IdahoDoug
  • pschreckpschreck Member Posts: 524
    I realize that to somebody with more experience and knowledge some of us sound like a bunch of morons, but that was why I called on you.

    Can you answer servo_fan's question? I'm certainly no expert on four wheeling and wouldn't want to mislead him. I only tried because nobody had answered him in a few days.

    Thanks
  • mazdaprofourmazdaprofour Member Posts: 202
    Since this seems to be the only busy forum for toyota tacoma, here is my question.

    I want to buy the following vehicle:
    2003
    toyota tacoma
    4x2 prerunner regular cab
    auto
    V4
    with posted epa gas of 19/21 per gallon

    I want to know what gas milage to expect and
    if this vehicle mated with a V4 automatic has any major known issues. I looked at the NHTSA website and found no major tech bullitins or recalls.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Try asking in the Toyota Tacoma discussion. Things seem a bit slow with Spring Break and the war, but there are some active posters in there.

    For issues, check out the Toyota Tacoma problems board.

    Steve, Host
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    only two MAJOR (top level)descriptive terms, labels, would be perfect.

    4WD: available driver selected part-time drive system with some type of alternative driveline mode for NORMAL (high traction) use.

    AWD: full-time 4 wheel drive system wherein some method (automatic, transparent to the driver) is used to allow different, limited, F/R driveline rotational rates, to prevent driveline damage on high traction surfaces.

    Obviously there are, will be, variations of/on both of these but it would be simpler to stick to those as descriptions of variations rather than top level labels.
  • toyotakentoyotaken Member Posts: 897
    For those who aren't familiar, wwest likes to get into silly arguments about semantic differences about topics that he doen't have the experience or background to pontificate about. I try to ignore them unless he's making pattently wrong comments.

    You may want to try breaking down 4wd/AWD systems as follows:

    Standard part time 4wd - uses transfer case and high and low gearing - tacoma, Tundra

    Advanced part time 4wd - uses center diff.and high and low gearing - Sequoia

    AWD - center, front and rear diffs, no low range

    full-time 4wd - center, front and rear diffs, low range gearing avail.

    And wwest, for all of your compaining about your RX, it does send power to all 4 wheels. So, by definition, it is AWD. All the limited slip, trac systems, etc. do is to help limit wheelspin in other situations.

    Just my $.02
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I have never said the RX300 doesn't send power to all four wheels. Latently, on high traction surfaces, the F/R split would likely be 50/50, but even the Lexus factory rep agreed that the different final drive ratios F/R in the RX and HL would modify that latent ratio.

    And I have said that the instantaneous, front wheel slippage, F/R torque ratio is about 90/10. If an extened period of front slippage should occur then the ratio might rise to as much as 75/25 F/R.

    Doesn't the Sequoia have an AWD mode and a 4WD mode? AWD implemented with three open diff'ls and brake modulation to automatically apportion torque with wheel slippage. 4WD implemented with locked center diff'l?

    And by-the-by, if the current RX AWD system is as satisfactory as you seem to think, why do you suppose Lexus is switching it to the ML and Sequoia style AWD design?

    And the MB ML3X0 has a brake apportioning AWD system AND a high and low range. I suppose you would say that since it has a low range gearbox then MB is mistaken and it is actually 4WD. But it isn't part-time 4WD, so where does it actually fit, by your definition?
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Let's drop the personal attacks and characterizations. All who use these boards are literate and can make their own judgements.

    tidester, host
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    out there know what the effect of differing front and rear final drive ratios in the RX and HL actually is?
  • servo_fanservo_fan Member Posts: 15
    I know there are a lot of variables that factor into whether or not someone would get stuck. Terrain, drivers skill and tires, etc. But it's still nice to have some idea of your vehicle's capabilities. Although from reading this forum lately, you can imagine why someone would get confused! It sounds like some would say I've got a part time 2wd system and part time 4wd system ;-). Thanks again.
  • idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    Servo said: I'm trying to get an idea on the capabilities of the '97 4Runner I own. It is obviously a part time only system and as far as I know has no VSC, ATRAC, limited slip, etc, correct?

    >I believe your 4Runner is a very traditional 4WD system as you state. Cliffy could comment as to whether I'm missing the presence of any electronic trickery but I think it has none - straightforward bulletproof system. I don't think this model had a limited slip rear diff available.

    Servo said: A "part time" system was defined as not having a center differential and that both axles turn at the same rate. Is this the equivilent of locking the center differential on newer 4Runners? Does locking the center differential on new 4Runners lock the axles together?

    >Yes to both of these questions. A part time 4WD system like yours actually has a transfer case rather than a center differential. The transfer case is doing nothing in 2WD, but transfers power to the front axle via a drive shaft when 4WD is engaged. Because of this solid link when engaged, it is the same as a locked center differential in that no slippage is allowed. That is why your vehicle should not be operated on dry high traction surfaces routinely - turning requires slippage.

    Servo said: Also, just how good of an off road vehicle is the '97 4Runner since it doesn't have all of this new technology? If 2 wheels are spinning, (1 front & 1 rear, or 1 right & 1 left), wouldn't the '97 be stuck? I don't have a locking rear diff. Thank you.

    >It is a highly capable offroad vehicle. I have owned 3 4Runners of that generation and wheeled them all. In addition, I used to drive factory 4Runners offroad all the time for evaluation purposes and there were always at least a half dozen duplicates along. Over the years, I saw only two failures. One was a freak occurance of a section of fence wire getting wrapped around the right front axle and as it wound around it generated incredible lateral pressure just like a screw thread until the axle was literally pulled in two at the joint. The other was being driven by someone who knew nothing about 'wheeling and was being subject to incredible abuse (not intentional, it was a very demanding trail) and suffered a bent steering arm. Both drove home. That's it, and I still have the video of all the abuse we foisted upon those beasts. Suffice to say your '97 is one tough trail truck.

    Will it get stuck? Sure. But even with open front and rear differentials that vehicle can get through stuff that would make your hair stand on end.

    IdahoDoug
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Doug hit the nail on the head on all counts.
  • servo_fanservo_fan Member Posts: 15
    Thanks to everyone who replied to my newbie-like questions. ;-)
  • paull2paull2 Member Posts: 2
    I have been searching for some clearer explanation of how toyota RAV4,HL and Lexus RX300 systems work and I found some information on this website:

    http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Diagnosis/Transfer_- Case_Gear_Ratios_Main.htm

    It gives some explanation of how each of the drivetrain transfer cases work. It states that for the Lexus/Toyota crossover awd drivetrains, the final drive ratio is controlled by the gear on the output shaft of the transmission and the ring gear on the center differential. The transfer ring and pinion and the rear differential have the same gearing resulting in a 1:1 overall transfer ratio. This keeps the rear wheels turning at the same speed as the front wheels when the car is moving in a straigth line. The Voyager/Caravan layout is also described the same way.

    I also found this website which shows the insides of a celica GT4 drivetrain which I am assuming is the same basic layout.

    http://gtfour.supras.org.nz/gearbox.htm

    Thought it might be of interest.

    Paul
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    If I read the link correctly then the reason the RX/HL "final drive" ratios differ is because output of the center diff'l transfer case assembly is not 1:1 F/R and the differing F/R rear final drive ratios bring the front and rear drive axles back into 1:1 ratio.

    Not to argue the point but I always thought final drive ratios were stated as relates to engine revolutions vs wheel/tire.
  • uofm369uofm369 Member Posts: 4
    How well does the Highlander handle in the snow and Ice?
      Thanks
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    anyone else?

    Or.....
  • pschreckpschreck Member Posts: 524
    YIKES!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    won't do!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The HL is NOT a snow and ice SUV.

    All of my information is gained from owning an AWD RX300 but Toyota has assured me that the drive trains are basically the same.

    You cannot safely use snowchains on the HL or the RX. There is not enough suspension clearance in the rear for snowchains. Toyota or Lexus will tell you that an extraordinary level of traction (snowchains only on the front)on the front vesus the rear can be extremely hazardous.

    The AWD version of these vehicles is front wheel drive torque biased, about 90/10 ratio measured on a four wheel dynamometer. There is a viscous coupling mounted across the center open differential that in theory could route a substantial level of engine torque to the rear wheels once front wheelspin develops.

    In theory that is.

    In order to keep the design simple and the manufacting costs low the viscous fluid within the HL/RX viscous coupling is formulated to have a very slow reaction time and a fairly low coupling coefficient even after the time constant has elapsed.

    In our testing it took several seconds of front wheelspin for the torque distribution ratio to rise to the maximum of 75/25 front/rear.

    If you're considering the purchase of an HL or an RX then IMMHO the FWD version with the VSC option will give you just as good snow and ice service as would the AWD versions of these vehicles.

    And more (s)miles to the gallon.

    For snow and ice take a really serious look at any of the Chrysler AWD minivans or the 03 4runner.
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    "In order to keep the design simple and the manufacting costs low the viscous fluid within the HL/RX viscous coupling is formulated to have a very slow reaction time and a fairly low coupling coefficient even after the time constant has elapsed.
    In OUR testing it took several seconds of front wheelspin for the torque distribution ratio to rise to the maximum of 75/25 front/rear."

    Are you Car & Driver, Consumer Reports, or something??? Can i subscribe to your preaching???

    There has not been ANY problems with RX or Highlander in snow...except for WWEST's constant whine. Many people are VERY happy with HL and RX's performance in snow.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    that the clear majority of purchasers of AWD HL or RX are perfectly happy with the vehicle, even those north of the "snowline". Even so, that doesn't make what I have said untrue or of no value.

    Some of us tend to look under the skin of vehicles we are about to purchase, or have purchased, and I see no harm in advising others, certainly those that bother to ask, as to what we have found there.

    And by the by, this evening I discovered that the new RX330 has tighter rear suspension/tire clearance than the RX300.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Looks to me as if you already have, no subscription fees, please.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    If you go back over this topic, you will see that very few people's real world experiences agree with wwest's observations. There certainly are better vehicles for snow and ice but the HL is no slouch.
  • sirfilesirfile Member Posts: 42
    There are as many holes in wwest's awd theories as there are in Sadaam Hussein's palaces!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    as hard to define or find as Saddam's WMD?
  • jmummeryjmummery Member Posts: 11
    First of all. Who from Texas knows anything about snow and ice? I have seen snow in Texas and I just hid and watched the carnage from my hotel.
    Why does chain fitment mean anything about S&I performance? I live in Saskatchewan and we Have over 7 months of snow a year with plenty of ice and I have never seen chains on a vehicle that wasn't plowing(not really a Lexus job).
    Mr. West does a reasonable job of conveying useful information in a limited space. I have not seen any posts bashing him with any technical value.
    If you want to do well(go too fast) in snow, buy a conventional 4X4 or a Subaru style(AWD) and some Nokians and LEARN TO DRIVE.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The most common need for snowchains in recent years has been that man in the strange flat brimmed hat telling me I cannot proceed absent installing chains, and for some reason they are never willing to accept snowchains ONLY on the front.

    I guess I could give up snow skiing or visiting relatives over the Pass at Thanksgiving or Christmas and then I wouldn't need to carry snowchains in the wintertime.

    Unless we get another winter like 90 or 95.
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