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Mercedes-Benz G-class (Geländewagen)



  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Land Rover Discovery - "related" to that Defender you seem interested in :-)

    Land Rover Discovery/Discovery II



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  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    ...they are almost the same vehicle. The Defender has 10" shorter wheelbase (90" vs. 100") and slightly shorter overhangs (than the Disco Series I) but the chassis, engine, transmission, transfer case, differentials and suspension are the same.

    The Range Rover is tilted toward comfort, the Defender is tilted toward hardcore getting filthy and hosing it out, and the Discovery is basically a Defender with a nice interior that you can drive more than 100 miles without having your family disown you.

    There's an old rule of thumb: "The flatter the panels in the bodywork, the more your truck is oriented toward offroading." So in my book there are perhaps 4 or 5 vehicles truly made for serious offroading (that can easily be obtained in the USA and are driveable on the highway). The G-wagen in one of them.

    Best regards, -Bob
  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    Well take this list as you will, but here goes:

    In deference to the esteemed audience here, the G-wagen is mentioned first. Then in no particular order, Land Rover (all three), Jeeps with coil suspension (CJ and TJ), older Toyota Land Cruisers with coil suspension (and the all-desireable factory lockers) and early Broncos (late 60s and early 70s with coils).

    Some deserve honorable mention, like Isuzu Trooper, the ubiquitous International, the Nissan Patrol (if you can find one) and the old warrior, the FJ40.

    As you can see it's all in the suspension, as long as you have a stout enough chassis to keep it all pointing the same direction. Or if it's cheap enough to fix when you whang something out of line.

    This is of course only my opinion. What do the rest of you think?
  • My opinion is that there are many different types of "serious off-roading". Rock Crawling isnt the only kind.

    The Gwagen, as well as the others that you mention, are all incredible off-road machines.

    Personally, I think that the Toyota Tacoma, and the new front-torsion Land cruiser, the nissan patrol(Ive seen a new one on the Rubicon), and even the new Jeep Wranglers, the new Hummer H2, the new Land Rovers...all are still world class off-roaders.

    My opinion on why? Because they retain about 95 percent of the extreme rock crawling ability of some of the more esteemed off-roaders(the ones you mentioned), yet they gain other attributes that the esteemed few cant even touch, like high speed absorption and stability, mid chassis ground clearance(independant suspension!), and the ability to remain stable on extreme offset slopes, where live axle coilers will wobble and sway and tip.
  • " and the ability to remain stable on extreme offset slopes, where live axle coilers will wobble and sway and tip."

    I would invite you to take a look at some of the neat little flash movies MB has put together about the G-class. Of particular interest may be the side gradient video. The G is about the LEAST tippy off-roader on the planet.

    I would also have to say that the newer G and RR / Land Rover (excluding Defenders) are impressively comfortable vehicles. They provide at least 95% of the comfort with 100% of the "off-road ability". Different strokes I guess.

    I have also seen at LOT of the small Toyota pick-ups lying on their sides and roofs. Those are top heavy machines. I do agree that the new Tacoma with the TRD package is a great thing. They offer great ground clearance, a rear locker, and Toyota reliability. I also am intrigued by Jeeps new "Rubicon" package. Heavy axles with lockers, sill protection, and big tires. I see an admitted weakness in the front axle though. They only allow momentary locking of the front diff. The axles in the G by comparison are factory designed to withstand maximum engine torque to a single wheel. NOBODY else offers that kind of stregnth.

    So I see additional benefits to the G. I can off-road the heck out of it daily without fear of damaging it. The others wear out quickly under such strain. Of course few require this. I am looking for my G's to last a long time.

    Pretty neat to see the hobby expanding with more capable offerings. I don't buy the anti-suv'er BS either. I see way more trucks on the trails every year. Great to see more people enjoying some of our country's natural beauty.

  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    Well said. Although Rovers feel tippy, it's the long travel suspension they feel. In fact, the center of gravity for a Disco Series I is on a plane one inch above the top of the alloy on the wheels. Given a 16" wheel and an 8" sidewall, that puts the center of gravity about 25" off the ground. And that explains the massive sidehill angles these things will take.

    I agree most SUVs are designed now for the masses, and they're demanding good onroad manners. Before too long we'll be able to buy only independent suspension and low clearance off the showroom. I guess we'll just have to make our live-axle coilers last!

    V12, The G has a STOUT drivetrain, and I'm sure it will last as long as you want it to. Similarly, I have a friend (Mike Green at West Coast British) who told me almost 2 years ago that he had 650,000 miles on his Disco... with one rebuild.

    Make 'em last!
  • In addition to the coil sprung suspensions the sheer hieght of these vehicles amplifies the "feeling". I can always find my G in the parking lot, it is easily the tallest box out there ;-) I even had to re-adjust my garage door to get it in.
  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    Ha, me too! I had to cut 8" off the bar that raises my door, and last winter I hit my roof once going into the garage, when there was a smidgen of snow on the floor. It's sort of like being on top of a tall building in a heavy wind... people on the first floor don't feel it.

    Being tall like this, it's no wonder the Rovers have alloy bodywork. The more weight you can save up high, the better she'll perform offroad.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Ever since you said "the flatter the panels in the bodywork", I've been looking at all the Odysseys and older Caravans around and I'm thinking they must be the greatest off-road rigs of all ;-)

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  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    ...what it means is the engineers applied all their considerable prowess to the running gear, leaving the body panels for last... when the development money had run out. :)

    In the case of the Chrysler minivan, there simply WAS no engineering prowess.


    "If you make it cheap, they'll come." -Iaccocca
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    I see way more trucks on the trails every year. Great to see more people enjoying some of our country's natural beauty.

    Don't those trucks block your view of the country's natural beauty? :-)

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  • Next weekend is some sort of off highway vehicle day. To commemorate I will be in Moab Utah with a small group of G-wagens to enjoy some rock crawling. Americas beauty is so immense that there is plenty of room for all to share. ;-)

    Nanuq knows, he lives in one of the greatest wilderness areas of all.
  • thor8thor8 Posts: 303
    I thougth I ask you since I am asking all over, I asked the same question at the Moglist, I just overhauled the 352 engine in my 406, the only thing is the front flywheel has a 1000th play, the crank is within specs and the balancer has no taper (the manual has no specs), within a tenth front to back, but has a perceptible wiggle, I can slide it in and out by hand, what do you think, just use Loctite and torque it?

    On a separate note, you and Nanuq may enjoy this pics, 50,000 miles of tropical trails like this, maximize for better effect, at the bottom there is a white arrow, click rigth for next set, total 63 pics. Pic # 6 will give you an idea of the open inmensity. They use a few G wagens there, although not in this set.

    Remember maximize the pics.

  • yeah...I guess it definitely comes down to the "different strokes"...

    I personally am a big fan of the more high speed capability stuff, like 2WD rock buggies, pre-runners etc, and my dad is more of a fan of rubicon style offroading. That doesnt mean I don't like that style, it just means that I have a different priority.

    So...for me personally, I would love to have a 4 Runner with the same setup as the TRD Tacomas. The Land Cruiser is a great ride as well, but there needs to be something drastic done to increase ground clearance. The Hummer H2 is great as well...I just feel weird being in something that big.

    As far as the shaky feeling of solid axles on slopes...I need to relay some personal preference. On a tarmac race track, the fastest car may not be the most comfortable car. There are tons of cars out there that have absolutely extreme capabilities, but if you put an average driver in it, they WILL end up on the side of the road. For the average joe, just out to have fun, the fastest and safest car will be the one they are most comfortable driving. The same goes with offroading. Personally I feel more comfortable in a stable independant suspension SUV than a wobbly and tall sitting live axle. As to which can handle more of an angle is up to the CG and the triangle it makes with the wheels. But for me, I never plan on getting within 5 degrees of that extreme, and I would rather feel comfortable than feel uncomfortable and just trust that I wont tip.

    Yep...different strokes for different folks.
  • " I never plan on getting within 5 degrees of that extreme, and I would rather feel comfortable than feel uncomfortable and just trust that I wont tip. "

    I try to stay much further away from the limit than that even ;-) I rode on the test track in Santa Fe where they were selling G's for years. They have a side slope that is well shy of the maximum. I have to say, I thought we were going over for sure! I have also done a LR test track, same scenario, and again, well shy of the ultimate capability. I look at it as a little extra safety margin. I end up doing a fair amount of exploring alone. The margin makes me much more comfortable doing so.

    I would say that getting just over half of the side lean of a G or LR would be enough to scare the pants off of a first timer.
  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    You're both right... it's a spooky feeling to be over so far that you're looking down at the ground out a side window.

    Here's a neat trick if you ever get into that situation and you *must* get by an obstacle: just pull out your coil of rope and loop it around a tree trunk on the upslope side. Then loop it thru both the open driver and rear seat windows on that side, fixing it at the top of the "B" pillar. Leave it loose enough to let you pass, or have someone reel in line then release it as you move across the slope.

    It's best to not have anyone handling the lines; real injury can occur. If you slack the line enough to let you traverse the slope it will still prevent you rolling downhill... and if you do get up on two wheels you can hang from the rope to tip the truck onto all 4 again.

    If someone is handling the lines then by all means you better look into shackles and blocks. Nobody is heavy or strong enough to stop a rolling truck.

  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    I know what your talking about. My Trooper is rated for 45 degree slopes, I was on a real narrow beach with a 20-25 degree section this summer and when the rut on the uphill tire undulated upward it was disconcerting. However, I made the pass several times and didn't have any problems. It is just that at 2 AM in dense fog on my way out fishing it gets a little hairy and nerve racking.
  • We are throwing these terms around a little carelessly. I think the G is rated for 54% side slope, this is much different than 54 degrees which would send it tumbling. A 45 degree incline is a 100% grade, this is VERY steep. With good traction many 4x4s can climb this slope but,none could traverse it.
  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    "Trooper's large diameter wheels and minimal front and rear overhangs give generous ground clearance and a 31-degree approach angle and 31-degree departure angle. Plus the wide track allows Trooper to traverse 45-degree slopes. So you can happily tackle heart-poundingly rough terrain. Yet Trooper maneuvers docilely in tight spaces, with a turning radius of just 5.0 meters (2-door) or 5.8 meters (4-door)."

    You need to hit cancel on the language pack installation (you don't need it).

    I agree with earlier posts that even going somewhat close to limits is scary enough for me, I doubt that I would even attempt 45 degrees, let alone 35, however that is what it is rated for. Not careless, just reporting ratings posted by Isuzu. Maybe the G-Wagon can't keep up with a Trooper offroad? :-)

  • " Maybe the G-Wagon can't keep up with a Trooper offroad? :-)"

    That is a challange I will take any day ;-)

    If you had ever been on a 45 DEGREE incline, you would realize the folly of the statement made in the add. That is so steep you would have trouble climbing it on foot without steps of some kind.

    See if they will back that claim up. You could use a new truck, right? I will be in Moab Utah this weekend. There are a couple well know 45 degree climbs. If Isuzu will back up the claim, I would gladly point you to where we could watch it tumble sideways down a 45 degree incline. LOL
  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    Well, if we did test and it rolled, I could still afford at least 2 more before I cover the cost of a G. You are probably right though, 45 degrees is pretty steep, however it isn't the only place I have read the same rating? Isuzu has not spent a lot of money of advertising and they may never have gotten back to correcting it.

    I am in the east coast, hoping to someday get a trip out west for some moab terrain. Until then all the G owners will just have to sit back and wish they had a Trooper.

    Seriously though, How is percent slope and degrees calculated? You said 45 degrees is 100%, so then 22.5 degrees is 50%?
  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    The Rover Discovery is rated at 45 degrees too, so I don't think it's a misprint.

    Slope percentages are done as a fraction, by "rise" over "run". Looking at a slope in cross section, if it climbs 100' as you go "into the hill" 100' then it's 100'/100' or a 100% slope. If it rises 50' in 100' of distance then it's a 50% slope. Looking at a protractor, a 45 degree angle has the same rise and run, so it's a 45 degree angle, but a 100% slope.

    |...\ if this "rise" is 100'
    and this "run" is 100'

    then it's a 100% slope and a 45 degree incline.

    Hope this helps, -Bob
  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    Ahhh...y=mx+b. "m" being termed in percent rather than a whole number. Got it.

  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    Or in more arcane terms, It's the arctangent of the rise over the run.

    Rise = 50' Run = 100' angle = 26.6 degrees

    Note a little mathematical weirdness here: with half the rise of a 100% grade you'd expect half the angle, or half of 45 degrees. Nope. It's a trigonometric function, not linear.
  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297 slope as a percentage is a function.

    I have done some web research today and I did find references to the 45 degree angle, even for the older generation troopers? It does seem steep...though I think the best thing to remember is that when I am pushing it to my limits, which are well short of 45 degrees, I am probably OK, even when it feels like it I won't make it.
  • They will all roll on a 45 degree, 100% slope sidehill, I don't care what the advertising departments say.

    The trooper is a nice truck, I had one once, it blew a headgasket :-O Besides you need to buy two just to come close to lasting as long as a G :-O I wasn't slammin on your truck of choice, please spare me the pickin at the G.

    I just think it is great that people get out there and use the dang things, regardless of make. It is a great time. I know that there are some pretty sweet places out east to wheel as well. I can't think of the names right now, but somewhere in Penn.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    Or in more arcane terms, It's the arctangent of the rise over the run.

    To clarify, it (the slope or grade) is not the arctangent of the rise over the run. The rise over the run is the tangent of the angle! (Said differently, the arctangent of the rise over run IS the angle!)

    Thought you'd like to know! :-)

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  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    AHEM. Listen up, ya ding dong... I said the angle is 26.something, and that's the arctangent.

    Now don't make me come down here off'n my icy mountain and whack you one. I'm having too much fun.

    Interesting how we use the term "slope" and it's expressed as a ratio. But then the term sidehill angle comes into play and it's no longer a ratio; it's a pure angle. I bet most people don't realize they're doing it.

    Likewise, when people hear that the Tour de France had an 11% grade during a mountain climb they think that's not much... till they realize that's the same as climbing one story in 100' of forward travel. OUCH!

    About rolling on sidehills, not all trucks will roll at a 45 degree angle. If their center of mass is inline with the axles, their roll center is so low that the tires would slide sidehill before they rolled. The CG of my Rover is on a plane one inch above the top of the alloy wheels. That makes it very stable on an offhill. But then you add tall tires (Bob raises his hand) giving the roll center more leverage, and then you put a couple people in it, and the CG moves up... and pretty soon you have a dangerous condition.

    Q: On a 45 degree sidehill, a 200# passenger will feel how much sideways force pulling him toward the downhill door?

    A: Enough to make him want the heck outta there.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    Now don't make me come down here off'n my icy mountain and whack you one.


    Seriously, I only made the clarification because you used the pronoun "it" in your comment "Or in more arcane terms, It's the arctangent of the rise over the run." which makes it ambiguous.

    We wouldn't want to lead any budding mathematicians astray who might be dropping into these forums.

    Is it true that nanuq is Inuit for "number guy from the north?" ;-)

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  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    "Nanuq" means "Polar Bear" in Yupi'q. But the real term of endearment I've been stuck with is "Nulaqmi". Argh. It has something to do with a bloated white walrus stomache. :)
  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    No, you weren't slamming my truck of choice...however, my use of information here is not careless either.

    Anyway, I read the G board because I think they are cool, and only meant to share a common experience of driving on steep slope. Please update us with pictures from Moab, I would like to see them.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    People seem to frequently toss off "steepness" figures (not in here, but "around"). The steepest street in the world, Baldwin Street, comes in at 38 degrees. Grab your bike, Nanuq....



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  • Sorry, I may have been a little over sensetive, maybe the touchy feely generation is digging its claws into me a little :-O

    I am really psyched about this trip! hard to imagine when I am facing a good 20 hour drive, beginning tonight. I have a stop over planned in Denver to break the monoteny. Then I will have three full days in Moab, should be a blast.

    They rate the trails from 1-4+ out there. Last year we did a 3.5, followed by a 4.0 and finished with Moab Rim trail a 4+. I am sure that there are a couple tougher than that one too. I am meeting up with a couple other G owners, both with G500s. I am not sure how much I can talk them into but, I plan on doing Golden Spike with or without them.

    I have a few shots from last Sept. and I will definately add to the collection this year.

    Moab Trails

  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    Nice pictures...I noticed you have a G320, did you go through a 3rd party vendor to import one before they became mainstream? How long did it take to get brought in, and then did they have to add an engine stateside or is the 3.2 what was sold in Europe? Any difference in performance offroad between the 500 and 320/280? I would imagine the additional weight from the 5.0 makes some difference?
  • The 320 is my second one. I had a 1990 300GE prior to this one. I bought it from the main importer, Europa, loacated in Santa Fe NM. The second one, the 320, came in through Europa again but I bought it from an outfit called Kieser Motors in San Jose, it was on consignment from Europa.

    In 2000, Europa sold its legal importation rights back to MBUSA. I know that seems strange but, Europa was the only legal importer for a period of time. They did crash testing and emissions compliance to reach this status.

    Now MBUSA imports the G500s and Europa has become a Saab dealer that still handles parts and service for the G's it brought in.

    The chronology goes a little like this. Introduced in 1979 as the 460 series chassis with a 2.3L four, the 460 continued untill 1989 when it was replaced by the 463 chassis. The 460s are quite basic machines, they remind me very much of the original Troopers, the dash is even similar in layout. The 460s are part time 4wd with optional front and rear diff locks, though most have them. Next a 2.8L inline six was added which is the 280GE. There are also a couple diesels but they are under 100hp and not very practical for everyday use.

    The 463 started out with the M103 3L six from the 300E sedan. It also introduced full time 4wd with standard lockers. In mid 1994 the G320 was introduced, M104 3.2L 210hp six. The inline 3.2L was replaced with the new 3.2 V6 in '98 or '99. There are very many of these in the states because the V8 G500 was introduced in '99. The 463s also brought fancy interiors to rival the sedans of the time. So the 460s are workhorses, the 463s do a good job of combining the rugged off-road ability of the 460 and the luxury of a MB sedan.

    I also have an '02 G500. I would bet that the all aluminum V8 is lighter than the iron block inline six. It also takes up less space under the hood (the V8).

    The frame, suspension and body remains largely unchanged as does its capability. They pretty much just added more luxury and power as time went on.

    The 280s are acceptable for power, I would prefer a five speed, same with the 300. The 320s on up were all automatics but, by then it was was enough power. Both my 300 5-speed and 320 would roll across Nebraska all day at 90 mph with the AC on. The G500 is in a completely different league. With 300hp it goes 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. To me, the most desirable model is the pre MBUSA G500 from '99-00. They have the more basic interior similar to my 320. The '02s got a nav system and a bunch of other useless, to me, electronic gadgets. My wife drives that one mostly.

    After Moab this weekend I am dropping my 320 off at a fabricator in Colorado Springs for custom bumpers and rock sliders to protect the door sills. I already have the lift in. Then the final few mods will include bigger tires, a winch, and likely a roof rack. It should be one heck of a unique truck by the time I am done.
  • that street is nothing. Whoever said that street is the steepest in the world is dumb. I have been on streets in san francisco that dont have sidewalks...they have stairs.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Go tell Guinness World Records :-)

    "San Francisco's steepest roads - Filbert Street and 22nd Street both have a maximum gradient of 1 in 1.853 (28.35º or 31%)." My point is that people tend to way overestimate grades around the boards.

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  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    I saw an older model in Nantucket this summer, much more truck like. It didn't look more than 10 years old though. I agree that the older basic style is more appealing (at least to me). It also appeared that the body was somewhat different from the current G500's?
  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    I prefer grading on the curve. :)

    Last summer I came down off one grade that was so steep (HOW STEEP WAS IT??) I had it in 1st, low range, feet on the brakes, and I was still sliding downhill. When I reached the transition to level ground at the bottom I drug the FRONT of my license plate on the ground. Which adds to the charm of a truck that sees some offroad use.

    Unless you have seriously short overhangs you'll get yourself in one big pickle doing this stuff. Going up, you'll lift your rear wheels as you drag the underside of the aft end... and coming back down you'll end up with most of your weight suspended by the front bumper, and no steerage.

    This is why God made locking differentials.
  • I find myself in situations now where people are asking me why I have mud and swamp grass hanging from my front bumper and trailer hitch. Time to put the lift on and buy some bigger tires.

    I was watching a special on TLC about 4x4s and they had a section on a Rover driving school where they would take the vehicles over a 40 deg side slope. Apparently most people begin to feel uneasy at around 15 deg because the angles feel so much worse than they really are.
  • steve, maybe this street doesnt qualify as an actual street(more of an alley), but I am not kidding when I say this street had an angle of at least 40 degrees, no overestimation or exageration.
  • Hey, Im sorry that I have to ask this stuff in here, but it seems like the Gwagon folks are the only people that are serious about Off-Roading in Town Hall.

    But I am curious, what do you guys think of the new Toyota 4 runner? It sounds like a great new SUV with a continued emphasis on offroading and affordability. Kinda like a less luxurious baby Land Cruiser.

    Read about it in the first drive section on edmunds.

    BTW, saw my first G500 the other day, driving a trail to the top of one of our mild local peaks in the San Luis Obispo area. It had no visual difficulty whatsoever. I also saw it traverse a side slope of about 12-15 degrees, without any wobble or sway. Impressive. Just make it cheaper!!!
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Wishnhigh1, you bring the clinometer, I'll pick up a loaf of the extra sour. Shouldn't take us more than an afternoon to put this to rest, and then we can head across the bay to Spengers for a shrimp scatter plate. :-)

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  • nanuqnanuq Posts: 765
    Yep I've seen that one. The guy speaks with aplomb into the camera as his "tyres" chew the gnarly slop crossing the sidehill. He calmly discusses rolling your truck, at which point he aims downhill and punches it. Great footage!

    Although it happens only at extreme angles, it IS possible to roll a Rover. This one went over backward.


  • Hey does anybody think that engineers rate these vehicles for ratings that they are not capable of in real life?

    Hypothetical example, SUV1 is rated to withstand a 40 degree sideslope...however with the driver in the cockpit it is only capable of 36 because of the new center of gravity?
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    That's an interesting observation!

    I just did a quick back of the envelope calculation and a 200 pound passenger in a 4000 pound vehicle could cause the center of gravity to be raised by 5% which translates to about 1.5° shift in the "critial angle." It's in the ballpark.

    Of course it depends on vehicle details (I'm just making a very crude estimate here) and whether the driver is on the upslope or downslope side of he vehicle.

    Obviously, the engineers do the calculations more precisely and I am certain they take it into account - if for no other reason than liability concerns.

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  • v12powerv12power Posts: 174
    There is certainly more to it than even that. Trail conditions of course make a big difference too. Many times as you approach the limit there may be a little bump that goes along with it. That bump may provide enough acceleration momentum to go over at under the rating.

    sbcooke, There is no actual differance in body panels. The front fascia is different from old to new. In addition fender flares are standard now and were optional on the old ones. The look is different, the body is actually the same.

    On the G's cost. There are many of us writing MBUSA to send us a less expensive stripped version at reduced cost. I think the thing would sell like crazy at say $40k new. They have a great engine coming here already in the Sprinter Van. It is a 2.7 inline six turbo diesel. That engine in a stripped G would make an awesome off road and general utility vehicle. While I doubt it will happen, I sure hope it does :-)

    I am back from Moab! I come bearing many pics! If you want to see a nice picture of lean angle, I have it. I think it is the third or fourth one in. 2000 G500 on a nice sidehill with one front wheel in the air. He scared the heck out of me, and I was just watching! There are about 70 pics that take a couple minutes to load on a slow connection. I think it is worth it but, they are my pics ;-)

  • sbcookesbcooke Posts: 2,297
    I think the difference on the one I saw was that the spare was more centererd and on a different style carrier, rather than on the door and the interior was very sparse.

    Nice pictures. Some of those climbs look pretty hairy. Nice Job!
  • Yeah, even a momentary turn uphill will cause enough momentum to tip at the limit. I am just wondering how the engineers come up with that rating. Is it a non-moving, zero payload test, or is it real world conditions.
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