Low End Sedans (under $16k)

backy · November 2001

Major, I don't know how I could have "exaggerated your feelings" on tachs and idiot lights, since all I did was quote you verbatim. I agree, lack of a tach does not prevent a satisfying driving experience (and I didn't say that it did), but it helps. I didn't have a tach on my last car, a 5-speed Sentra, and I missed it. But one can always shift based on speed.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2001

Where's da man, eneth? Ever since the host put an abrupt end to the Daewoo Bankruptcy site eneth's been gone. Has he posted to the Leganza forum? Tell me so I don't have to go read through them. Eneth withdrawals? Tell me no! Honda and Toyota make better cars. PFFFFTTTTT!!!!! They just don't look as cheery as Kia's and Hyundai's-try as they may and try as they might! Occasionally an aberration like Celica will pop out of the Toyota evolutionary cycle-but they're too far and in-between.

majorthomecho · November 2001

I am simply saying that you are giving the situation greater importance than I did. The absence of a tach and the lack of a true temperature gauge "bothers" me so much that I forgot I said I wanted them at one time.

I guess it is an indication that the Echo is relatively boring and all I could think of to change were cosmetic things.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Save yourself the few bucks next time. I think a quick perusal of the magazine would have told you if you wanted to buy it.

majorthomecho · November 2001

New this year in the above mentioned issue is a listing for the maximum mph a car ran during Consumer Report's accident avoidance maneuver.

Edmunds has claimed that the Echo is not very stable. Well, if this were true, it would be reasonable to assume that the result would be a low speed in the accident avoidance maneuver.

Here now is the maximum speed for the Echo and other low end cars.

Toyota Echo - 51.5mph
Chevrolet Cavalier - 53mph
Daewoo Nubira - 53.5mph
Dodge Neon - 53mph
Ford Focus - 53mph
Honda Civic - 52.5mph
Hyundai Elantra - 51mph
Kia Spectra - 50.5mph
Mazda Protege - 54mph
Nissan Sentra - 51mph
Saturn S series - 50.5mph
Toyota Corolla - 51mph

The Echo does not go as fast as some of the other models, but I think one hold back was the tires on the Echo. I think a change in tires would enable an increase in speed.

One thing that I was really surprised how the Echo compared to a non-low end car that you would think would blow the doors off the Echo (and the rest of the cars) in this maneuver. The other car was the Subaru WRX. Its maximum speed was the same as the Echo - 51.5mph.

The Echo - more stable than it looks.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Another indicator of stability is the speed achieved in a slalom test.

I have the results from tests run by AutoWeek on a couple of low end cars. The slalom was four hundred and ninety feet.

Daewoo Nubira - 42.1mph
Dodge Neon - 43mph
Ford Focus - 43.7mph
Toyota Echo - 42.1mph

FWIW, AutoWeek said that they felt the little tires on the Echo hobbled it during this test. FYI, these were the same tires on the Echo that Consumer Reports ran through its accident avoidance maneuver.

Like I said in the previous post, the Echo seems to be more stable than it looks.

randyt2 · November 2001

The Focus comes in many trims. Could you give me the trim level for at least the slalom tests?

For the CR accident avoidance manuever, were these manual trans?

cjaccetta · November 2001

When you can't think of anything you'd really like to change about a particular car or come up with anything overtly positive/negative to say about that car, then perhaps that's a signal that the car is of good design. To call a sub-$15,000 car "boring" is kind of a compliment, no?

I think Robert Bowden said this better at his website, but you get the idea.

backy · November 2001

When Edmunds.com and other reviewers complain about the ECHO's "stability", they typically mention how the ECHO is affected by crosswinds or buffeting from trucks. This is a different measure of stability than what is demonstrated by accident avoidance maneuvers or slaloms, which IMO are more a measure of handling than stability.

Also, while the ECHO does have narrow tires, it is also by far the lightest of the vehicles listed in the previous posts on stability. That means less weight delivered to each contact patch. If the ECHO had wider tires, it might do better in these handling tests, but the added friction of the larger tires could also reduce gas mileage. The argument "if only Car X has this feature, it would do better in Y area" is getting a little tiresome I think. If we put wider tires on the Corolla, Elantra, or Sentra, or on any of the other cars, they would likely get better results also. If Toyota thought wider tires were necessary to meet their goals for the ECHO, they would have shod wider tires. I will bet that most ECHO owners don't go out and replace their tires right away, so they will not get any benefit that may occur from wider tires.

How do the AutoWeek tests prove anything about ECHO's stability? It came in tied for last in the group.

I can't wait to see the posts from the Daewoo fans about the handling prowess of the Nubria, being narrowly edged out for top honors in the low-end class by the Protege in the accident avoidance test. Maybe Nubria owners will be singing the "zoom zoom zoom" song now. :-)

backy · November 2001

Boring = good especially in terms of reliability. The fewer problems a car has, the more boring it is. Boring is not as good in some other respects, e.g. boring to drive, boring to look at.

cjaccetta · November 2001

Good point backy!

CJA

majorthomecho · November 2001

Get ready for a long post as I will attempt to answer questions and make comments in regards to the five posts done after I posted my most recent post.

The Focus that Consumer Reports used for the accident avoidance test was the top of the line ZTS with an automatic transmission. More on the other cars in that test a little later.

On the other hand, the Focus that AutoWeek used for the slalom was a ZX3 with the optional 130hp engine and a five speed manual transmission.

In fact, all the cars I listed for the AutoWeek slalom were manual transmission cars.

Now, back to Consumer Reports. Here is the rundown of the cars again, but this time I will indicate whether or not they were manual or automatic transmission.

Toyota Echo - manual
Chevrolet Cavalier - automatic
Daewoo Nubira - automatic
Dodge Neon - automatic
Ford Focus - automatic
Honda Civic - automatic
Hyundai Elantra - automatic
Kia Spectra - automatic
Mazda Protege - automatic
Nissan Sentra - automatic
Saturn S-Series - automatic
Toyota Corolla - automatic

The other car, Subaru WRX, I mentioned in my accident avoidance post was a manual. This begs a question. Will a manual transmission or an automatic transmission lend itself better to achieving high(er) speeds in the accident avoidance maneuver? Same question in regards to the slalom.

And Backy, you seem to imply that Edmunds was not complaining about the Echo's handling. Go read the review for the 2002 Echo. They say, "handling is not the Echo's forte." I think I have shown that the Echo handles comparatively well.

Edmunds does complain about crosswinds, but I do not find what they say to be true. I am not in the same state as them, but my state does have some really, really blustery days and I have never felt unsafe in my Echo due to the winds. I have never felt that I was being buffeted more than with any other small car I have driven. And I have driven a lot of small cars.

And anyway there are others who do not share your view that slalom tests are less an indication of stability than handling. But wouldn't you agree that an unstable car would not handle well?

You are right that larger tires would cause a decrease in fuel economy. The car handles fine to me so I know I won't be changing wheels or tires. FWIW, I have steel wheels and not alloy.

In regards to the AutoWeek test, my point is that the Echo (supposedly this terribly unstable car) didn't do too bad.

And I do not find my Echo boring to drive or boring to look at. I had to go to my mother's the other night and it is about eighty miles one way. A very fun, comfortable trip.

Sorry for the long post. Hope it answered all the questions. If not, post any more questions you have and I will try to answer them.

majorthomecho · November 2001

I brought up the point about tires hobbling the Echo because one of my sources made that mention and I thought it was germane to the subject.

And changing to larger tires is a relatively cheap fix if you want better handling as compared to doing engine modifications if you want faster acceleration.

And if you spend enough money, you can end up with a modified Focus that will hang with a Corvette. I believe Car And Driver had an article about this last item.

backy · November 2001

FYI, the 130 hp engine is standard in the Focus ZX3.

I have never driven a car in CR's accident avoidance manuever (obviously), but I wonder if there is any shifting involved? If not, I think it's possible the manual shift car would have a slight advantage, due to lower weight (less inertia to overcome on directional changes) and maybe a little better engine control (no "slush box" in the way). I don't see any reason why a manual shift car would be at a disadvantage, unless there is some significant shifting involved, meaning the car is changing speeds a lot. From what I've seen of films of these types of maneuvers, the cars did not seem to be changing speeds much through the cones.

Major, please re-read my comment on stability. I was merely stating my opinion on what I consider to be stability. I did not say that Edmunds.com did not complain about the ECHO's handling. And of course other people are entitled to disagree with my opinion. Otherwise these would be boring forums, if everyone always agreed, right?

BTW, my comment about boring cars was a general one, in response to CJ's post, not directed at any particular car model. In fact, with its unique styling, I think the ECHO is one of the least boring cars (at least visually) out there.

backy · November 2001

Thanks to the good people at Hertz at O'Hare Airport, I had the chance to take a brand new (15 miles) '02 Elantra GLS automatic, with moonroof and 6-speaker CD stereo, on an extended drive around the Chicago suburbs this week. It was interesting comparing the car to my '01 GLS 5-speed. Fortunately, the weather cooperated with some warm (for November) sunny days so I was able to make use of the moonroof.

The car was of course familiar--the same comfortable 6-way driver's seat (in the same beautiful "puke brown" fabric), the same solid structure, the same simple but clear instruments and smooth switchgear. But the automatic impressed me by being even quieter than my GLS. I think most of that was due to the revs being about 10% less than the 5-speed's, e.g. 2250 at 60 vs. 2500. The engine note seemed more muted at all speeds, making the car seem even more refined.

As expected, the automatic took away some of the power, but it was not as bad as I expected, and the car was peppy for a slushbox. The shifts were smooth, although once when driving at low speed I detected a bit of "hunting". The shift indicator on the instrument cluster was a nice touch for a low-end car. I came away thinking that I could learn to live with the automatic in the Elantra, especially if I had to regularly drive in Chicago rush-hour traffic.

I was really impressed by the noise isolation. Even at 80 (er, I had to get past a truck), the car was quiet, with just a bit of wind noise at the A-pillars. And it was pulling just 3000 rpms at 80 and wasn't even breathing hard. (Note that this is one reason I would never buy a rental car--people who drive 80 mph on a brand-new engine.)

The stereo upgrade was a definite improvement over the base stereo in my car. I didn't try the CD, but the radio had plenty of volume without distortion and good tone, not thunderous bass of course but that's why they sell subwoofers if you really need one. I don't; I want to keep my hearing as long as possible.

The moonroof worked fine, with little wind noise and no rattles. I wouldn't mind having one of those. Next car maybe. There was about 3" of headroom for me, and I am 5-10.

There were only a few small changes that I noticed from the '01 model. First, they put the rear seat slide-out cupholder in! (Scratch one item off my wish-list. I heard some later '01 models got that too.) Second, the little buttons that indicate the child seat latch locations are seat-color (tan), instead of orange as on my car. Third, they added some indentations into the spare-tire cover, I suppose for added strength.

There was no "Korean new car smell", just the usual new car smell. Maybe by the time Hertz got the car, the preservative had faded away. But I noticed the burning smell that Major reported on the Spectra, a couple of times when stopped. My theory is that preservative or undercoating got sprayed onto the exhaust system. My Elantra had the same smell but it went away in a week or two.

I noticed no squeaks, rattles, or other defects. I couldn't check the paint (cranberry) very well because Hertz didn't do a great wash job, but it looked smooth and glossy on the clean parts, with no orange peel. There was no shimmy from the Michelins.

When I rent from Hertz, I ask for a compact since that's the size of car I like to drive in city traffic and it saves my company a few bucks. Hertz's choices, at least in Chicago, are the Escort SE, Focus SE, Corolla LE, Protege LX, and Elantra GLS (and maybe an occasional Neon or Sentra). I always ask for an Elantra because I think it is superior to all the other choices. I don't get one very often because they don't stock many, so this week's rental was a nice surprise.

Footnote: I drove up behind a stopped car early this morning and said to myself, "Oh, a new Camry." I thought sure it was a Camry until I got closer and saw the Kia badge on the trunk lid. It was a Spectra. These car makers have GOT to come up with some new tailight designs--it's getting hard to tell one from the other!

claywaterfill · November 2001

There is a reason why Hyundai sales were up 95% last month. They are good cars.

majorthomecho · November 2001

You don't think that the much touted 10 year (power train) warranty had anything to do with it? You don't think the fact that many (all?) Hyundais are cheaper than comparable vehicles had anything to do with it?

Do you really think the only reason (as your post implies) is that Hyundai makes good cars?

majorthomecho · November 2001

Backy, I just want you to know that I don't always disagree with what you say. I just disagree when you are wrong and you are only wrong when you disagree with me. ; )

fangio2 · November 2001

Less money,more warranty,more standard features, of course,those are reasons for buying Hyundais-good reasons.Saving money is what "lower end"cars are about.Hyundai and Kia both offer the savings of low priced cars and the features associated with higher end cars.The Daewoo Leganza is a good example of this(could not resist the opportunity for a plug-sorry)
The question to ask is why buy something else?

majorthomecho · November 2001

quality.

majorthomecho · November 2001

reliability.

majorthomecho · November 2001

fuel economy.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Just got done putting gas in my tank.

I had gone 441.30 miles and put 9.892 gallons in the tank which means I got 44.61 miles to the gallon.

That and the price of gas being 99.9 cents a gallon makes the cheapskate in me very happy.

claywaterfill · November 2001

99.9 in Kansas City? Not too bad considering all the press that went to high gas prices in the mid west. I have seen gas as low as 92.9 in "name" stations and 88.9 in "no-name" stations here. Gas mileage is the only complaint I have with my Kia. I only get about 30 in a mixture of hwy and city driving--majority city. I guess if that's my biggest complaint, then things must be okay!

majorthomecho · November 2001

I forget how high gas prices got this summer (I am thinking north of $1.80 a gallon), but they did not budge after the events of 9-11 except for a few stations that decided to gouge people. Gas got as high as around $6.00 a gallon the day of the attacks. The owner/operators of the stations were/are in legal trouble.

Fuel economy was the biggest disappointment I had when I test drove the Kia Spectra and the Kia Rio. I thought it was very bad.

fangio2 · November 2001

with your command of so many words.Here are some more words-trust.As in trust in Toyota's reliability for 10 years vs written guarantee for 10 years.SAVINGS on gas mileage Echo 300 gals for 12,000 miles per year-Elantra 400 gals.GEE at a $1.50 per gallon thats $150.00 per year.In only 20 years you will make up the difference in similarily equiped cars.Specific-what areas SPECIFICALLY is the quality of the Echo superior to the Elantra?

backy · November 2001

Let's see... Quality: I'll compare the quality of my Elantra GLS to any other low-end car, any day, in any aspect. Reliability: fewer problems in its first year than any other new car I have owned, including Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, Mazdas, and Mitsubishis, and no problems of any consequence. Fuel economy: 28-30 mpg city, 40 mpg highway observed from a 2700-pound, 140 hp car. Not bad at all I'd say.

How about another word: Nausea (what I would get if I had to look at an ECHO in my garage each morning). :P

protegextwo · November 2001

1.)Resale Value-
2.)Pride of Ownership-
3.)Dealership Experience-

If those concerns do not bother you, I think a 2002 Hyundai Elantra GLS is a comfortable, refined sedan at a VERY attractive price. Perhaps, the best choice under $14,000? However, I would stay very far away from the KIA and/or Daewoo products for now. Just my opinion.
:-)

-Larry

backy · November 2001

Larry, please explain why you believe the owner of an Elantra cannot be proud of his/her car. I have pride of ownership in my Elantra. It's the most satisfying car I have owned, with the exception maybe of my '85 Civic S.

As for dealers, there are good dealers and bad dealers. This goes for Hyundai dealers as well as Mazda dealers, Toyota dealers, Honda dealers etc.

And as for resale value, it's interesting you mentioned that. According to kellysbluebook.com, my '01 Elantra GLS has declined in value 12.6% over the past year, comparing my purchase price with dealer prep but not tax to its current value if sold to a private party. Compare that to the average depreciation over the past year of about 15%, which is up a bit from historic levels due to the strong sales of new cars (0% financing and all). Also compare that to what kellysbluebook.com calculates for depreciation for a '01 Protege ES, based on Edmunds.com's TMV price, with mats and perimeter alarm, the same miles (7700) and condition (excellent) as my car: 16.8%. So I guess if resale value is an important consideration (which it is not for me, as my Elantra is a long-term car), one should really steer clear of the Protege, maybe stick to cars with proven high resale like the Civic.

iluvmysephia1 · November 2001

wider tires than stock? I'd like to see how one would look with tires about 1/2 again as wide as stock.

mpgman · November 2001

The proud owner of an Elantra GT with 14,000 plus miles checking in. Resale is indeed a consideration, although Mazda never exactly lead that pack. The key to Hyundai these days is negotiating a great price when you buy. That will soften the extra depreciation a bit, providing that the future is what the past has been. I suspect that Hyundai's improving reputation and build quality will result in better resale, as later models make their way into the "desirable used car" category. I personally spent a lot of time testing the Pro-5 and the GT and for me personally, money aside, the GT won hands down for driver comfort, cargo capacity, and content. But....I would be darn proud to own a Pro-5 too.

protegextwo · November 2001

>"Larry, please explain why you believe the owner of an Elantra cannot be proud of his/her car. I have pride of ownership in my Elantra."<

-Backy

I was speaking only of my personal pride in ownership. Some folks really don't consider it an issue to drive a South Korean vehicle. I associate South Korean autos with credit criminals, because that's the target group in Lancaster, PA. The local Hyundai/Kia co-branded dealership markets their vehicles to credit bandits through "screamer Ads" in the local newspaper. Worse yet, the local dealership operates out of a former "Mouse House" building. Yikes!!

-Larry

fangio2 · November 2001

First it was elitist wannebe yuppies in BMWS,NOW financially superior Protege owners?What next?Will the gruopings be further delineated by what tire is on the car?
It could get really confusing.For instance,should a person who paid cash for an XG300 feel more pride then a Protege owner who finances?
Will the pecking order be decided on the economic situation in Lancaster?

protegextwo · November 2001

>"It could get really confusing.For instance,should a person who paid cash for an XG300 feel more pride then a Protege owner who finances?
Will the pecking order be decided on the economic situation in Lancaster?"<

Well, Fang2, he asked and I answered. My opinion only, as I stated clearly. No need to get your undies in a bunch.

-Larry

protegextwo · November 2001

>"I think a 2002 Hyundai Elantra GLS is a comfortable, refined sedan at a VERY attractive price. Perhaps, the best choice under $14,000?"<

-Larry

fangio2 · November 2001

verbal wedgie.If one can actually be "proud"of something that anyone with the required amount of money can attain;this pride should not be contingent on the percieved financial status of owners of different products.
I realize that it was your opinion,just as I hope you understand my response is just my opinion.Some of the "things" I own evoke "feelings too.These feelings include gratefulness and joy,but not pride.
When I see someone driving an Elantra,I don't think "credit criminal"(are people with "bad" credit criminals-didn't we get rid of debtor's prisons).I think an Elantra owner is a person who enjoys getting the most for his buck.

backy · November 2001

Larry, thanks for your positive comments about the Elantra. But I do take issue with your comments about "pride of ownership" and South Korean cars being associated with "credit criminals." You can recant if you wish, but your initial statement about "pride of ownership" was clearly not a personal statement, but rather directed at all readers of this forum, to wit: "If these concerns [pride of ownership etc.] do not bother you..." [italics mine]. You see how easy it is to take your post to mean that owners of Elantra GLSes cannot experience pride of ownership. Is that because they are all "credit criminals"? What is the "issue" you mentioned about driving a South Korean vehicle--especially if one of them is "a comfortable, refined sedan at a VERY attractive price. Perhaps, the best choice under $14,000"?

I assure you, I am not a credit criminal (actually, I own my '01 Elantra free and clear), and no one I know has made any issue about my driving an Elantra. I did get puzzled looks from a couple of passengers who asked me if the car was an Accord, and I told them, no, it's a Hyundai Elantra. I also assure you that not all Hyundai dealerships are like the one in your town. The Hyundai dealers in my area are all respectable businesses, paired with dealerships for Subarus, Nissans, Dodges, and Mitsubishis. Lately their ads have been touting 0% financing deals--not the kind of thing that would appeal to "credit criminals", right?

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions, but don't be surprised if those who find your opinions offensive take you to task on them.

protegextwo · November 2001

>"Less money, more warranty, more standard features, of course, those are reasons for buying Hyundais-good reasons. Saving money is what "lower end" cars are about. Hyundai and Kia both offer the savings of low priced cars and the features associated with higher end cars. The Daewoo Leganza is a good example of this(could not resist the opportunity for a plug-sorry)
The question to ask is why buy something else?"<
-Fang2

My very simple reply: Re-sale value, pride of ownership, dealer network. I think maybe more people than not, actually think like I do. It IS reflected in the perception of poor Korean build quality, based on Hyundai's earlier reliability issues. Finally, the re-sale/depreciation issue ultimately reflects the general public's opinion of South Korean autos. HOWEVER, "the times they be a changin"! Hyundai's and Kia's are selling pretty well, they seem to have carved out a sizeable niche in the NEW car segment. Hey, good for them, I think thats neat. As I stated, the 2001/2002 Hyundai Elantra is the real deal. At the risk of Backy, impeaching me for recanting, :-) Edmund's long term test of the new Elantra is VERY promising. I think, if Hyundai re-introduced a stylish wagon/hatchback version of the Elantra GLS, it would be a killer with young families and Generation Next types.

Nonetheless, at the end of the day, It is still my opinion that Honda Civic, Mazda Protege and/or Nissan Sentra offer a better long term value, better reliability, and the features people really want at a very fair price. JUST MY OPINION.

-Larry

majorthomecho · November 2001

I have yet to see an Echo with wide tires.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Actually, the difference in price between the MSRP of my Echo and the MSRP of an Elantra with a CD player (which makes it comparably equipped in my mind) is $135.

I will probably drive 20,000 miles a year plus gasoline around here is $ .999 a gallon so I used these figures in determining the difference in yearly fuel cost between the Echo and the Elantra.

According to the government site, the Echo will cost $172 a year less to drive than the Elantra. What this means is that the savings in gasoline in ONE year, NOT twenty years, makes up for the Echo being slightly more expensive. And then some.

And anyway, even if it did take 20 years to make up for the difference in MSRPs, I would rather spend the $172 a year in gas savings on something else.

backy · November 2001

Larry, if you were offened by my little joke about the styling of the ECHO, I apologize. I thought the pictogram I put after the comment would let people know the statement was in jest. I was also expressing an opinion about an inanimate object, a car, and my personal reaction to it, vs. an opinion about a class of people.

I'm glad you think the Elantra is "the real deal". Since there IS an Elantra hatchback, I'm assuming you don't think it is stylish, based on your post. I happen to disagree, but its Saab-like styling cues aren't for everyone. I think it could benefit from a front grill redux and some rework on the tail lights. Maybe in 2004. A wagon would be nice, too--the prior generation wagon seemed quite popular, I see a lot of them around.

Re your opinion on Civic, Protege, and Sentra's superiority in overall value, it would be interesting to see if the marketplace shares your opinion. For example, Civic sales were up strongly in October, up 23.5% from October 2000. But Elantra sales were up 69.6% in October compared to a year ago. I could not find sales figures for Protege and Sentra for October; perhaps someone knows where to get this info (Honda and Hyundai conveniently post their monthly sales figures, broken down by model, on their Web sites.) As you've noted, Hyundai and Kia are selling pretty well. Actually they're selling great if you look at their increases year-over-year compared to the rest of the market. There must be reasons for these strong sales increases vs. competitors like Honda, Mazda, and Nissan. I happen to think that value (feature content for the dollar) and peace of mind from the outstanding warranty are two major reasons.

backy · November 2001

Major, just to be fair on this... does your ECHO have the following features, which come on an Elantra GLS with CD?

Power windows
Power locks
Remote keyless entry with alarm
Power heated mirrors
6-speaker CD
6-way adjustable drivers seat with lumbar support
15" tires
Front-seat side air bags
Air conditioning
Variable ratio power steering
Cruise control
Full gauge cluster with tachometer
Front seat arm rest with dual storage compartments

If not, then to be fair we should add this equipment to the ECHO when doing price comparisons.

csandste · November 2001

Have a Malibu Maxx-- best 16K I ever spent.

Close friend has a 2000 Focus ZX3. Like the handling but seats aren't too good as per lumbar support. Supposedly Focus has improved in both comfort and handling since then.

Had a Hyundai Elantra 4 door before the Maxx. More comfortable than the Focus, Maxx is worth the extra 5 grand difference. However if I was looking at that size car I'd still be looking at the Elantra hatch (none was available when I was buying in 2001).

Passed on the Kia because of poor initial crash scores, however Kia has now improved in that area and would definitely be looking at the car now. Nice looking although I still think the Maxx is worth the extra $$$, especially since the mileage is roughly the same. (I'm getting about 1.5 mpg less than I did with the Elantra 5-speed.)

I also looked at the Scion xB and the Toyota/Pontiac hatch twins. All were far too noisy and the Suzuki Aerio SX-- really liked the 5-speed, interior is MUCH improved this year and there's a great level of standard features. Still, concerned about Suzuki dealer quality and the Aerio sales are tanking even with the recent improvements.

Chevy dealers appear much better than local Hyundai dealer (they were always trying to nickel and dime me on services and don't like dealer addons and high pressure sales of closest dealer). Kia dealership tied to local Dodge dealer that's better than Hyundai but not up to my experience with local Chevy dealerships (I think they've been Saturnized for the better).

Did drive a Forenza wagon (with the automatic), much less car than my Maxx--and MPG's were worse--- and cruder IMHO than the Kia/Hyundais. I assume the same would apply to the Reno.

Drove a Mazda 3, but reliability not as good as the Maxx.

All in all, I wish we had many more wagons and hatches to consider. A decade ago both the Camry and Accord came in wagon form. Now there's only the Maxx and the Mazda 6 in that class and a handful of Focus class cars with hatches and wagons. Too bad-- got to get more 50 and 60 year olds (as well as 20-30-and 40 year olds) out of those SUV's.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Backy, I am the resident Echo owner and I did not take offense to your statement although I disagree with you and feel you are wrong.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Backy, some of the things you mention are on my Echo, some things could have been on my Echo, and some things are unavailable as a dealer or factory option no matter the price.

The things on your list that are on my Echo are power locks, 6-speakers, and the air conditioning.

The things you can get are power windows, remote keyless entry with alarm, and front-seat side air bags.

The things you cannot get power heated side mirrors, 6-way adjustable driver's seat with lumbar support, 15" tires, cruise control, full gauge cluster with tachometer, and front seat armrest with dual storage containers.

I think you are reaching with the last two, especially the last one. Should I ask if the Elantra comes with two glove boxes? Should I ask if the Elantra comes with an under the seat drawer? Should I ask if the Elantra comes with a storage bin under the steering wheel?

There is one item on your list that I have not mentioned and that is the power steering. My Echo has power steering, but I have no idea if it is variable ratio power steering.

When I figured out the MSRP of a "comparably equipped" Elantra to compare to the MSRP of my Echo, I had to think about what was important to me. Honestly, I detest power windows and if I bought an Elantra and I could have it without power windows, I would. Even if it meant paying to have them removed.

BTW, how much does it cost to get the Toyota quality option on the Elantra?

majorthomecho · November 2001

According to one source, which is JD Powers, the 2001 Echo is better than the 2001 Elantra in the areas of mechanical quality, feature & accessory quality, and body & interior quality.

This seems born out by the fact that the 2001 Elantra has one recall, eight technical service bulletins, and fifteen customer complaints detailed on the NHTSA site.

Compare that with zero recalls, zero technical service bulletins, and six customer complaints for the 2001 Echo.

Finally, Consumer Reports relates that owners of the 2001 Elantra had more complaints in the areas of the fuel system, transmission, electrical system, brakes, power equipment, and body hardware than owners of the 2001 Echo.

Three different sources researched and ALL three seem to indicate that the 2001 Echo is a better car than the 2001 Elantra.

janbee · November 2001

are you actually trying to prove whose car is the better one??? I think you are getting a little carried away. Lets just enjoy what each of our cars have to offer and why we enjoy them so.

carczar · November 2001

Is Honda actually going to bring to the US a new model that would be below the Civic in size and price range just as Toyota has with Echo/Corolla? And is VW considering bringing on the Polo?
By the way, there is no comparison between Echo and Elantra other than price similarity. Elantra wins all categories (Styling, value content, fun to drive factor, ride comfort) with the exception of the "Toyota" reputation. Drive both cars back to back if you wanna know what I mean.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Funny, how you dismiss the quality "win" of the Echo by calling it the Toyota "reputation". And it is not just reputation, it is a fact as demonstrated by the results of the JD Powers' survey and Consumer Reports' survey.

I guess quality is not important to you.

claywaterfill · November 2001

I hate to rehash old arguments, but the whole "pride of ownership" thing is another way of saying "My ego won't allow me to own one." You are so afraid that your neighbors will stop talking to you if you don't drive a Toyota or Honda or whatever everyone else has to drive that you can't buy one. Don't worry about your co-workers or anyone, get a great car at a great price and enjoy the heck out of it!

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