Low End Sedans (under $16k)

majorthomecho · November 2001

Please get your caps lock fixed. My eyes would appreciate it. : )

claywaterfill · November 2001

He does not even know how to spell Hyundai. He got it wrong every time. What does that say about him? ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong. He paid $16,300? For $16,300 he could have bought an Elantra GT with even more stuff including a leather interior AND a big screen TV for the upcoming bowl games!

bill_1 · November 2001

Major, I think you are missing my point. I am not saying it is an attitude that people have, I am saying it is an unintentional bias, a bias that makes us incapable of fairly evaluating something like a car. If someone believes that Korean Cars are inferior (and from your earlier statements, I think it is fair to say you do) then when you get into a Korean Car, every squeak or every little problem is going to reinforce your opinion that Korean Cars are inferior. On the flip side in a Toyota we are likely to miss some squeaks because we all know that Toyota builds such a solid car.

Essentially what I am saying is that there is a placebo effect when it comes to car evaluation. We have a tendancy to find what we previously believed about something. Its why Ford choose an advertising slogan like "Quality is Job 1", tell enough people that often enough and some of them will believe it enough to buy a Ford car.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Yes, it would be fair to say that I think Korean cars are inferior, but it comes from personal observation backed up by the surveys done among actual owners. It is not the other way around which was what you were implying.

And you missed an important point in a previous post of mine. No matter the problem or the size of the problem, I would be equally disappointed if it was with a Hyundai, Kia, Daewoo, Toyota, Honda, Ford, etc.

bill_1 · November 2001

Unless you can honestly claim to have never heard from another person that the Koreans make an inferior car to everyone else, you will have a bias no matter how subtle. Even if rationally you went into an examination of a Korean car with an open mind, subconsiously the inferior reputation would be nagging you and each fault, no matter how minor you found would then reinforce that perception (and the perception you had of other Korean cars you observed later) and thus make it more likely to find further faults with the car. In contrast the reputation of Toyota will be such that you may not even notice flaws in it that you would have easily found in a Hyundai. The flip side of the equation is that even if you had not heard of Korean problems, you have definitely heard of Japanese quality and therefore the Korean would still be the vehicle that gets judged most sharply.

The point is that our observations are always subjective and will tend to reinforce what we have heard from others unless substantial evidence is found to the contrary no matter how much we may strive to be open-minded. This is part of being human and that is why in science, efforts are always taken to remove observer bias whenever possible (again medicine is a good example; in a clinical trial for a drug, neither the patients participating nor the doctors administering the drugs know whether the drugs they are receiving/dispensing are real or a placebo).

To make my point simple; yes I know you believe you are objective, yes I know you would view any perceived fault as an equal strike against any vehicle; my point is that without controls it is essentially impossible for humans to be objective and that that loss of objectivity will essentially make it impossible for you to perceive faults equally.

majorthomecho · November 2001

What you are saying is that all the people who respond to the JD Powers and Consumer Reports magnified the problems their Korean cars had (if they owned a Korean make) and downplayed the problems their non Korean cars had (if they owned a non Korean make).

I think you sell people (especially me) short.

bill_1 · November 2001

I recognize the reality of Man. Any Historian, any Lawyer and especially any Scientist will tell you that humans are biased. Granted I can't be sure that the scenario I described above is true, it might be the opposite. The point is that all of us have biases, many of which we are not aware of. Indeed I will submit that the most important biases are the ones we are not aware we have.

Again, I am not stating that Korean Cars have caught up with Honda and Toyota, but they might be much closer than many here want to admit.

2001civicowner · November 2001

Hey guys, I'm sorry that I didn't spell the name of your car company correctly. My mistake.
I said what I said last night mostly because I was bored, but here is some detail for why I said what I said.
"Ford's suck" Well, not ALL fords suck, but some older ones do. I have alot of friends who have had alot of horror stories with their fords and it makes me not want to buy one.
"Buy a Honda" Well, I own one now, and I have to be partial to them! And, I've always heard great things about Hondas.

And about the "ding dong" thing...If you dont understand what I'm talking about, then never mind--I just know that it has always bugged me hearing that dang repetitious noise that alot of cars make. Alot of cars continuously make noises like that, but I found Hyundai's to be the most annoying.

backy · November 2001

For those who don't like car chimes, Hyundai took care of one of them at least with the Elantra, using an auto-off lights feature instead of a chime. I don't know if the Civic does that or not.

For those who don't like the "ding dong" when the key is in the ignition and the door is open... closing the door or taking the key out of the ignition will solve that little problem.

Just like the Fords that chime incessantly when the driver's seat belt is unbuckled (also very annoying), there is a simple solution: buckle the seatbelt.

coolguyky7 · November 2001

So the only way that Major's vehicle reports of the Kias would be correct is if they were all positive? Once again your comments give me this certain urge...

iluvmysephia1 · November 2001

to his opinion on types of cars. My point is that his posts and reviews and more posts and still more posts are like reading an extension of Consumer Reports. No kidding. On the Sephia...one would have to look far and wide to find a worse subcompact sedan than this one...ya read that one yet? That's Consumer Reports talking there. They repeat it for the Spectra? Don't know if that's true but it's hilarious if they do. I believe Mr.major himself said that they just repeated themselves for their Kia Spectra report. Hummmm......something's stinky in Clodsumer Land. One would have to look far and wide. Please guys...engage what you've got left of your brain before reviewing a Kia product next time.

majorthomecho · November 2001

Thanks for the laugh of the day.

csandste · November 2001

but the Spectra is essentially a Sephia with a different name and very slight trim changes. I haven't driven a Spectra sedan yet, but unless there were significant unseen changes from the 01 Sephia and Spectra hatch (both of which I have driven), this car would be near the bottom of my choice list. I don't quite understand Hyundai's plans for Kia. They're also selling a decontented Optima for more money than the Sonata.

majorthomecho · November 2001

The Kia salesmen would have you believe that the Optima is made with heavier steel and that justifies the higher price.

I swear I am not making this up. I asked a salesman about this during the auto show and heavier steel was his explanation.

bill_1 · November 2001

I am often shocked at how little most salesmen know about the cars they sell. The reasonably honest ones will at least admit they don't know but many people just make things up.

I find it odd that the Optima costs more than the Sonata as well (especially considering that the Sonata is IMHO a more attractive car), particularly since the strategy is suppose to be that Hyundai moves more upmarket while Kia remains the bottem feeder. Perhaps it is because the XG350 sits over the Sonata forcing Hyundai to keep the Sonota's price lower.

majorthomecho · November 2001

How true, at least in my experience.

I still shudder when I think of the conversation I had with one salesman about the Echo. It had been out for sometime, but it became very obvious that I knew the product better than he.

To add insult to injury, I told him what I was looking for and he claimed to have it in the back lot.

After walking back there, we discovered that the color was right, but nothing else was. The car was automatic and I wanted manual. The car was two doors and I wanted four doors.

claywaterfill · November 2001

Will tell you whatever it takes to get you to look at a car. They hope that you'll drive the black car and forget all about wanting red. Or automatic, or CD, or whatever. They want to sell today. I find that I frequently know more about the car I'm looking at than the salesman. I was looking at an XG300 about a year ago and he was going on and on about the 6 disc changer that comes standard with the car. I just nodded my head as didn't have the heart to burst his bubble.

coolguyky7 · November 2001

Iluv...do you ever feel as if you are giving just a little too much credit to Kia? They deserve some as their products have improved, and I admit to liking the new Spectras..although I did like the Celica like previous one. It's weird that the body style stayed around only about 3 years. Anyway...I hate Kia's low end cars all have the same interior design.

lleroi · November 2001

one that cannot like the Kia Cinco wagon.I saw a red one and it is the best looking compact wagon made.I saw an ad today for a 2002 new Optima for under $15,000.The Cinco was priced under$12,000.I don't own a Kia,but I don't feel that there are any cars that are clearly superior to them in their class.Even though you may choose another car ,only an idiot would not look at these two products(assuming mid-size and compact categories).

majorthomecho · November 2001

I went out with my roommate while she went shopping. She decided that enough was enough and it was time for a change. She ended up making the change tonight.

I did not try to talk her out of her decision. In fact, I agreed with it. Wholeheartedly.

When all was said and done, she bought a Daewoo. The biggest factor was the great deal she got on it. She and I both consider it new, but they did not and gave her a great deal over the same model that they considered new. And the price she paid when compared to other comparable makes and models was just unbelievable. This really is a great time to buy.

The paper work took awhile to complete and the hour is late and I am tired so I am going to end this.

I will give more complete details sometime tomorrow.

lleroi · November 2001

taken a lot out of you.Rest up,in the morning explore the wonderful world of Korean cars.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2001

we'll want to read all of your CRITICAL, precise putdowns of her Daewoo in all of their glorious detail! I can't wait! Don't say you like any part of it, it'll shatter everything we've learned about you and your bias.
lleroi-I like the red Cinco wagon, too. Kia's done it again. At least I didn't start that sentence with Oopps! Then follow it with I did it again.
coolguy-I'm just so thrilled that there's at least 3 car makers that are putting some serious design thought into their carmaking. Not just body design but I gotta tell ya, car body design is really pitty now and it's been pretty bad since the 60's. Oh ,here and there a good car body will be born, but ususally the manufacturer won't follow through and continue to design well. Toyota's Celica has changed? Is that what you're saying, coolguy? Provide us with a link to a pic if you have one. Or do you mean you like the Celica style of a few years ago?

majorthomecho · December 2001

I woke up this morning, went to the kitchen, and then went and took a look at the Daewoo. A grin spread across my face. I am going to like having it around.

I will post more later, but I want to check some of the other message boards I read before heading out for the day.

I have to go to the bank and then my roommate needs to go to the license bureau.

I want to point out that some might not consider 9:28pm too late, but whenever you see the time given for my posts, ADD two hours. I actually posted at 11:28pm last night.

Talk to you later.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

I do like the past 2 generations and the current generation Celica. Oh, today I was at a Toyota dealer in KY. There is just something about the ECHO that draws me to it. It has the most odd shape, but I like it because it's not the car everyone and his brother has. It's very distinctive and has a very interesting interior--a good alternative to your petite, mundane econocar interior.

majorthomecho · December 2001

My roommate and I were killing time waiting to see if her son was going to need a ride home or if his fiancee was going to pick him up.

Something caught our eye and we decided to stop and take a look around.

When someone came and asked us if we needed help, we told him that we were just looking. I was very impressed that he did not push and told us he would be happy to help us when we needed it. He then went to help other people.

We looked at all the different models when we noticed two of the same kind that seemed exactly alike, but there was a substantial difference in price between the two.

I found the guy who offered to help and asked him what explained the difference in price. I was dumbfounded that what I considered such a minor difference would cause such a major difference in price.

I thanked him and went to talk to my roommate. She could not believe the explanation either so she asked me to find the guy and ask him to check and make sure nothing else was different or wrong.

He checked with his manager and the manager confirmed that there was only that minor difference.

My roommate and I went and took a closer look. Everything seemed all right, but tests were in order so we put it through its paces and made sure everything worked and it performed like we hoped.

It did so and my roommate and I huddled together for a quick conference.

Like I said, the one we looked at was substantially cheaper than an identical one. But also, it was about half (yes, half) the price than comparable models from other manufacturers.

In the end, the deal was too good to pass up and so my roommate went home with a Daewoo.

I have to go now, but later on I will talk about the first few days with this new Daewoo.

backy · December 2001

Since there are no European cars that fit under the $15,000 US limit that we have put on "low end" cars for purposes of this forum, I'd like to suggest that we change the name to:

Low End Cars: American vs. Japanese vs. Korean

Note I've put the countries in alphabetical order.

What do you think?

majorthomecho · December 2001

Backy, might I suggest that we make a further change and call the thread Low End Cars < $15,000: American v. Japanese v. Korean?

majorthomecho · December 2001

Confession time. My roommate's Daewoo is NOT a car. It is a Daewoo 19" color TV. She got it for $69, but normally it sells for $109 while comparable models sell for about $139. The price difference between the normal price and the price she paid was due to the fact that the store we bought it at lost the box.

For $69 it was too good of a deal to pass up.

Honestly, it will take more than a good deal on the price to get my roommate to buy a car and I am the same way.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

I was thinking that she had just gotten a new car recently.

backy · December 2001

To be fully inclusive, perhaps we should call the board:

Low-End Cars, TVs, Microwaves, Ships, and Other Products < $15,000: American vs. Japanese vs. Korean.

That way we can talk about purchases of non-car products manufactured by automakers without going off-topic. ;-)

For example, I bought a Daewoo microwave oven for my mom last Christmas and she likes it very much--user-friendly control layout, good fit and finish, and a solid "thunk" when she closes the door. The turntable turns straight and true, no shimmy. The styling is a little boring for a Korean model, but hey, it didn't cost much.

lleroi · December 2001

think that?Just because this topic concerns cars and Daewoo makes cars?I think you must realize that it is possible for even thomecho to be majorly off topic.If eneth is around he will gladly discuss the advantages of owning a Daewoo tv
Anyone seen the new Honda self propelled lawn mower and how about the Saab Viggen(?)jet fighter?Did they have any deals on Mitsuibishi big screen tvs? .

iluvmysephia1 · December 2001

so well worth logging on and coming to this website this Sunday afternoon. Absolutely hilarious stuff, man! And we thought she actually took the scary plunge and BOUGHT AN EVIL, UNPREDICTABLE KOREAN-MADE CAR. AAAGGGGHHHHH!!!!! Good thing it was only the conservative purchase of a humble little TV! Too funny Mr.major!
Coolguy-Toyota would have to build the interior to END ALL INTERIORS to take my mind off of that homely, stricken body outside on their Echo!!!!!!!! What'cha wanna say to dat?

majorthomecho · December 2001

This is a car board, but didn't one of you find it strange that I did not name the model of what she bought? That should have been a big clue that I was not talking about a car.

Thanks for the laughs I got from reading your responses, both when I said she got a Daewoo and these later responses when I revealed she bought a Daewoo TV.

Iluv, speaking of Eneth, he is over on a thread called Wake Up Call. I believe it is in the News And Views section.

And remember that you are the one who used the word evil when it comes to Korean cars. That is something I have never called them and don't think they are evil.

FYI, so far the TV has been really good. Nice step up from the 13" TV that we were watching previously. One bad thing was that we had to give up the VCR since the 13" TV and VCR were one unit, but we have cable so it is not like we don't have movies to watch.

Even if the TV quits in a year, it will be worth it since she only paid $69.

lleroi · December 2001

13" set thru your new Daewoo.Now that you have upgraded your tv it's time to consider an upgrade Korean vehicle.Who wants to go from a tv with a 19" screen to a car with 12"(?)wheels.

protegextwo · December 2001

I hope, she took the extended warranty.

-Larry

protegextwo · December 2001

Toyota would have to build the interior to END ALL INTERIORS to take my mind off of that homely, stricken body outside on their Echo!!!!!!!! What'cha wanna say to dat?
-I Luv

Most people do not consider your opinions noteworthy. If you play the same song everytime you post, people will just tune you out.

-Larry

backy · December 2001

>>> This is a car board... <<<

That's right, it is. At least it's supposed to be. Lately there's been more posts about TVs than cars. Anybody just tuning in (sorry, poor choice of expression) would probably double-check his or her URL to make sure it's Edmunds.com and not BestBuy.com or the like. I thought there was a suggestion recently to post a link from this board on all the related boards to get some new participants. Before we do that, we might want to start talking more about cars.

majorthomecho · December 2001

You mean we should never stray off topic? Do you mean you have never strayed off topic either?

lleroi · December 2001

pat · December 2001

Why do I get the feeling that some of you are waiting for me to come a-scoldin'? :-)

Let's do try to talk about some cars for a while, now, okay?

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

pat · December 2001

Oh, and if you come to any consensus on renaming this dicussion, let me know - it's a very simple thing to do.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

Well said. And for iluv and his beloved Korean cars....

"I'm a little surprised that the brand new 2002 Toyota Camry was outpointed (at least in C&D) by the old Honda Accord. (A new Accord is coming next fall.) But the fact that four American cars brought up the rear, and were even outscored by a Hyundai, is embarrassing." -Forbes Magazine on the outcome of a midsize sedan comparison.

majorthomecho · December 2001

Maybe we should just retitle it Free For All. That way we would never be off topic again. ; )

muffin_man · December 2001

The George Foreman grill might be the greatest kitchen appliance ever built. If George Foreman made a car, I would buy it.

pat · December 2001

If there is nothing else to say about cars in this discussion, I can certainly shut it down.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

lleroi · December 2001

this is such a hot topic -we just needed a break to cool down.We were all hoping we could GRILL the major on his Korean car purchase.

backy · December 2001

There is a revised proposal on the table from majorthomecho to change the name of this board to:

Low-End Cars < $15,000: American vs. Japanese vs. Korean.

I second. Shall we call the question--all in favor, say Aye, all opposed, say Nay.

Aye.

protegextwo · December 2001

I need to say, Major Tom's joke was funny!

Guess what car I rented over my Thanksgiving vacation? Here's a couple of hints, the weekly rate was $105.00 in Florida. I used InterAmerican Rental Co. It was a verrry small car.

-Larry

protegextwo · December 2001

Nay. I like the topic name the way it is.

-Larry

backy · December 2001

Major, I can't say I've never strayed off-topic because I don't know what your definition of "off topic" is. You could mean, for example, that anything except a direct discussion of low-end cars would be "off topic", and then I'd have to admit that I've made some posts like that. But I would say that I've stayed on-topic better than most. For example, I haven't done several posts about a TV set that my roommate purchased.

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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