Low End Sedans (under $16k)

iluvmysephia1 · December 2001

Could I make an educated guess that you're Korean? Your input is most insightful, appreciated and helpful. I tell people I work with that I drive a Kia('99 Sephia traded in on a 2001 Sportage 4x4 2 months ago) and I get insulted immediately. Hello? Kia's are not Yugo's. Kia has been building cars for a long, long time. Hyundai and Kia both are the brightest bulbs on the planet in automotive manufacturing right now. Most people decline the invitation to visit Kia's Global online site and see some of the reasons why I say this. Their cars are made with durable and strong materials and they are put together well. You know what? If I made what Bill Gates makes in income I'd still be buying and driving Kia. Lexus? Pfftttt!! Give me an even break. Acura? Pfftttt!! Sprinkle some sugar on it, baby! Kia does cars the best. The car body designing by Kia can't be beat worldwide. Laugh at what I'm typing here and then go check sales figures. Then go find some more ditzy anti-Kia statistics on "initial quality". Spiritz-I get the feeling when I read your posts that you have some valuable Korean knowledge going on there. Stay tuned to this site and post liberally. Heaven knows the Kia haters have had their say. Checked sales figures lately? Actually driven a Kia? Probably not. More ignoramus material than one can shake a Louisville slugger at is available on America's various Internet car sites. Hey, Brett Boone-the M's can do without 'ya, man! We just re-signed Mark McLemore and more negotiating is going on as I type this!!!! Chime in dudes!

backy · December 2001

I saw an ad in my local newspaper by a Kia dealer. They were advertising a "No-Brainer Sale". I don't know if that means they were offering such great deals that you don't even need to think before you buy, or if they were referring to the individuals who buy cars at their dealership. ;-) Anyway, the ad highlighted a 2002 Spectra sedan for $9,999--pretty good price. Then smack-dab in the middle of the Spectra ad, in one of those explosion-type graphics so you couldn't miss it, was the proud claim, "30 mph!". I can envision lots of parents of high-school students rushing down to the dealership today, to buy a car that is ideal for kids with lead feet. :-)

coolguyky7 · December 2001

Open the door somebody! The rhetoric flooding out of a certain someone's mind is about to drown us all.

carleton1 · December 2001

Bo Kin had a Kia for a few months but then sold it to her Korean nephew and got a Nissan Sentra. Traded Sentra in on Mercury Contour a few years later. Soong drives a Chrysler convertible and has never had a Korean made car since moving here 20 years ago. (last names omitted for privacy reasons).
We test drove a Kia Sedona EX and were very impressed with the quiet, comfortable ride with good performance. It won't be many years until vehicles "Made in Korea" will be a sign of quality equal to "Made in Japan".
The first Kia and Hyundai were superior to the first Honda, Datsun, etc. Datsun reputation was so poor Nissan had to drop the Datsun name.

backy · December 2001

(Coolguyky7, you can use the scroll bar to skip this so you don't feel flooded.)

MSRP including Destination: $12,951 U.S.
Major Options: All-Weather Guard package, power steering, AM/FM/cassette/CD with 6 speakers, split fold-down rear seat, floor mats.
Color: Silver

Highs: Roomy interior for its size, driving position and visibility, nimble handling, good acceleration.
Lows: Noise (wind and engine), sparse instrumentation, firm ride, feature content for the money.
Summary: Good choice for people looking for a low-priced, fun-to-drive small car that has good room, excellent fuel economy, and traditional Toyota reliability.

The salesman insisted on starting the car and driving it to a remote lot a couple of miles away before I took the wheel, so I did not get to assess cold starting or how the car performed when cold (temperature about 30 F). The driving position was very good, with excellent visibility because of the sloping hood and large windows. Some people may think it's too good since you can't see the hood, but I am used to that from others cars I've owned with sloping hoods. The front passenger seat was comfortable for the few minutes I sat in it. The driver's seat was also comfortable, with good lumbar support. I wished for just a tad more thigh support; the seat cushion height was not adjustable. I also missed having a center arm rest. The door arm rest was comfortable enough, but I had winter clothing on for padding. The left footrest was comfortable also.

The center-mounted instrument cluster took a little getting used to. I had to constantly remind myself to look right to check speed. I think I could adapt to it eventually, but it's a little harder for me as I am blind in my right eye. I did miss not having a tachometer, but compensated by shifting by speed. Eventually I would learn to shift by engine note (see below).

The controls were well-placed. The stalks were typically Toyota-silky, and the dials for climate control were easy to use but did not have the same smooth feel as the stalks. I tried the optional radio for a minute, and it sounded fine but would likely not please audiophiles (what do you expect in a $13,000 car?).

There were numerous nooks and crannies to store stuff, including a large glove box, two cubbies straddling the center of the instrument panel, and map pockets molded into the front doors. No center console, however.

Quality of interior materials seemed good for an inexpensive car. A few cost-cutting details I noticed were a vinyl headliner (instead of cloth) and flimsy-looking vinyl flip-doors over the vanity mirrors. The cloth upholstery (light grey) had a pleasing pattern but was not on the plush side.

Rear seat room (with driver's seat set for 5'10" driver) was remarkable for a such a small car, with plenty of room for two 6' adults or three small children. My knees did not touch the front seatback. The rear seatback was comfortable. As in front, I wished for a little more thigh support. But toe space was good. My hair just brushed the headliner. The arm rest was uncomfortable; it seemed to be positioned too far forward and was too narrow.

The trunk was shallow but tall, and was expandable with the split fold-down seats. This car did not have a cargo net but one is available.

Exterior fit and finish looked fine from what I could tell--the car was not that clean and had some snow on it. The panel gaps were even, but the door gaps looked wider than on other cars and for the other panel gaps on this car. But this was not a sample flaw since all the ECHOs I saw looked the same. The doors closed easily, but not with the Lexus-like "thunk" that you get on some small cars with thicker doors.

The first thing I noticed when starting out was the short throws of the shifter and light clutch action. If the shifter had been a little less sticky, it would have been one of the best I've ever used. (Maybe it will loosen up over time.) The next thing I noticed was considerable engine noise when accelerating. It wasn't unacceptable for a small inexpensive car, but I guess I was expecting a quieter engine based I what I have read on all the posts about the ECHO. It also was not an unpleasant sound for me; I don't mind the hum of an engine winding when accelerating.
Acceleration was good, although I drove it only at 9/10ths during the test since it was brand new and I would probably not be buying it myself. At highway cruising speed (60-65 mph), the engine noise was quite noticeable but not excessive for a small car (the radio was off). There was significant wind noise from amidships; winds were calm during the test. The engine was quiet at idle, and there was no engine vibration through the shifter or steering wheel.

We drove down a bumpy city street (too many potholes patched way too many times) and the ride was firm, bordering on harsh. However, there were no squeaks or rattles. On the highway (smooth asphalt), the ride was much better with only small movements. Steering was accurate and the car tracked well. The car handled very well in turns, including cloverleafs; it was nimble and seemed like it would be fun to toss around (which I did not do since the salesman was with me). We drove through a good-sized dip with no drama (there were scrapes on the road from other cars that did not fare as well). Braking was smooth, easy to modulate. I did not try any hard stops.

The test drive took me back a quarter-century to the first car I ever owned, a '76 Toyota Corolla Deluxe 2-door sedan, price $3650. In many ways the ECHO reminded me of that car: few features, firm ride, good fit and finish, raucous engine when revved but quiet at idle, nimble handling. The ECHO was of course much roomier and I'm sure much safer, with dual air bags, side door beams and other modern safety features--in many respects a better car. But nothing can take the place of your first car.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

You're not the "over-rhetoricker". And by the way, I do like your review.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2001

Here's a spyshot of one of their's scheduled for 2003 release in the U.S.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4411&n=158,178&sid=178

It kinda looks like a cross between a Kia Spectra sedan and a Toyota Echo, eh? Are we getting lots more choices or what? This looks all right though I haven't seen the back of it, yet. The car makers seem to dig the foglights or at least a big round opening for one down below in the front now on new cars. Looks good as to me as it gives them more design balance in front. Kinda takes a cue from the round turn signals evident in small sports cars of the past. In my view a positive.

backy · December 2001

Good to see another choice in the low-end market. To me, it doesn't have enough bulges to look like an ECHO, and not round enough to look like a Spectra--it looks more like a 4/5ths scale Camry. The grille is odd--looks like "lips" on a face to me.

majorthomecho · December 2001

It is funny that Iluv calls the surveys on initial quality, "anti-Kia statistics." This implies that the surveys were conducted among people who merely looked at a Kia, but did not purchase one.

The fact is that both the Consumer Reports survey and the JD Powers survey are conducted among owners.

majorthomecho · December 2001

I was reminded more of the Focus than the Echo.

majorthomecho · December 2001

Backy, I did not even know that the headliner on the Echo was vinyl until you said something. The texturing fooled me into thinking it was some kind of cloth. Sure does not feel the same as the vinyl covering the vanity mirror.

I wonder if the headliner will be more durable than a cloth headliner.

I thought you did an excellent review and much better than the reviews I did of the Spectra and the Rio.

You sure you don't moonlight as an auto reviewer? ; )

backy · December 2001

I guess I noticed the vinyl headliner because the '96-'00 Elantra has a similar headliner, and one of the mags, maybe it was Car and Driver but I'm not sure, singled it out as a negative feature of the car. So I guess if the professional reviewers think it's so terrible, it must be, right? ;-) Anyway, I'm sure that one review drove Hyundai put a cloth headliner into the '01 Elantra--you know the power of the press! ;-) Although the cloth does look a little more upscale, vinyl is easier to clean. Several small cars I've owned, including some Corollas and Civics, had a simliar type of headliner.

Thanks for the compliment on the review. I tried to be as objective as I could (e.g., no comments about the styling). No, I do not moonlight as a car reviewer, but I think the people who drive cars and write about them for a living have just about the best job in the world.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

Isn't too bad looking. It's reminiscient of a Prius/Civic crossbreed.

pr0tagonist · December 2001

Looks horrible. Period.
I wouldn't even look at it.

majorthomecho · December 2001

If you wouldn't even look at it, how do you know it looks horrible? ; )

theparallax · December 2001

...looks like a Honda Civic married a Ford Focus!

spiritz · December 2001

Your eyes are all right(pun intended:)?
In fact, I like the style of Echo, but I do not dare to drive it for fear of my eyes being crossed continuously looking right side while one of my eyes keep staring foward. =^.^=
Thanks for good review.
I just decided to take a test drive an Echo any time soon.

-Spiritz-

backy · December 2001

Actually, my eye is all left.

spiritz · December 2001

I am not sure it's correct.

Please let me know if any of the stats are wrong.

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2001/12/11/200112110062.asp

The union seems to have declared a state of war against the company. I think they surely deserve a descent pay-raise, but I hope the strike to be stopped soon.

I've done my research on labor cost of Hyundai.

Total labor cost, including, pay-checks, pension augment, remedy for injury, medical support, support for collage tuition fee for children, house loan aid, etc, etc, paid by the company for every single employee, occupies "3%" of it's total sales figure.

It means, if the union strike and get a payraise by 200%(x3), balancing with Japanese employees in Toyota, the total cost will rise by 4%, which means one should pay approximately $500 more for 2003 Elantra GT.

BTW, I hope Honda & Nissan succesfully strike back next year.
We (consumers) will be more satisfied anyway.

-Spiritz-

spiritz · December 2001

does not include vehicles produced here in the U.S. territory by Japanese companies.
I just hope carmakers do provide better warranties than current ones.
-Spiritz-

protegextwo · December 2001

2001 Kia Sephia 4 door sedan Review: Part #1

Ok, I rented this little pup for $105.00 plus lots of Florida taxes, etc. Still, I real nice rate for a weekly rental, over Thanksgiving week. When, I got to the TransAmerican rental desk, the agent offered to upgrade me to a Ford Focus for $5.00 more a day. Well, I really wanted to drive a Korean automobile! So, I declined the upgrade and saved the $35.00. The shuttle took my small family to the off airport rental lot. We hopped in a snazzy looking Classic Red Kia Rio and off we went. We drove south from Ft. Lauderdale to Key West.
To be continued:

-Larry

2001 Kia Sephia 4 door sedan Review: Part #2

I will admit this, I would never shop for an automobile this small, for my personal use and I doubt that I'm target for KIA's Rio's marketing! I came to that conclusion based on my age and income level. However, could I recommend this car based on 550 miles of mixed highway & city-like driving and a week behind the wheel?

My experience is that most small Japanese cars are built for those who want to drive lots of trouble free miles in decent comfort and without worrying about feeling the road, while the common perception of small Korean cars is,... they are designed for drivers on a tight budget. Further, the Korean new car buyer doesn't let clumsy handling, excessive body lean, crude power train, noisy ride and/or questionable build quality effect their desire to drive those same miles in a new car. My impressions.

ANNOYANCES:

*Loud, I mean verrrry loud engine at even moderate revs.

*The center console intrudes on the drivers right leg. I'm 6'1" and this intrusion was almost unbearable on the 220 mile drive from Ft. Lauderdale to Key West. However, the problem was not as noticeable on the short hops around Key West.

*The lack of power anything! Yep power steering and thats all folks. I said, this cars is one I would never shop for! I guess, I'm lazy! Come on, this lack of power features was horrible. Nevertheless, this little beast lists for about $11,500 and prolly could be had for $9,500, expect to get what you pay for.

NICE TOUCHES:

*Fun to drive in very tight Key West streets.

*Plenty of rear seat leg room. I liked sitting in the back seat, better the drivers cockpit.

*Fresh and funking styling. Looked pretty smart to me.

*Nice trunk for such a small car Handled three large suite cases and three carry on bags, easly!

*Very verrry good warranty, standard.

CONCUSION:

Vulnerability is the predominate feeling when you ride in this car on the highways. Enjoying the fun, small and light "Go-cart like "maneuverability of the Rio in city-like driving was awesome. Parking was very easy. KIA has come a long way from it's startup in North America. However, IMHO; if you have a budget of $9,500 for a car, you would be MUCH more comfortable and safer in a larger used Japanese sedan or hatchback.

-Larry

claywaterfill · December 2001

I would be shocked to discover tose sales figures were only for vehicles made outside the US, imported in, and sold here. That would mean the 560,000 figure (or whatever it was) for Toyota would NOT include Camry sales? Or Corolla? Are you trying to say Toyota sells over 1 million cars in the US annually? I guess the weird thing is that Honda sells (I think) more Accords every year than they show as the total volume for Honda. Maybe the Toyota number is wrong?

backy · December 2001

I checked the sales figures posted on Honda's USA website (http://www.honda2001.com) and they confirm the numbers noted in the Korea Herald, that is, 217,000 imported units (cars and trucks, across both Honda and Acura Divisions) sold January through October this year.

I also checked Toyota's sales figures through October, at http://pressroom.toyota.com/, and they do not clearly break out all import sales, but they do show total U.S. sales for cars and trucks as 1.459 million through October, with 269,210 of those imported cars. There must also be a large number of imported trucks, so the figure quoted in Korea Herald, 567,000, seems reasonable.

backy · December 2001

Well, as you said, you get what you pay for. I think anyone who expects the Rio to be anything more than basic transportation has unreasonable expectations.

>>> Further, the Korean new car buyer doesn't let clumsy handling, excessive body lean, crude power train, noisy ride and/or questionable build quality effect their desire to drive those same miles in a new car. <<<

By "the Korean new car buyer", do you mean people who buy bottom-end cars like the Rio or Korean new car buyers in general? If the latter, I have to take issue with you on that since those people would include buyers of Optimas, Elantras, Sonatas, Santa Fes, Tiburons, and XG300/XG350s. And none of the traits you mentioned apply to these Korean cars. (Well, maybe clumsy handling on the XGs depending on what you mean by clumsy.)

protegextwo · December 2001

"By "the Korean new car buyer", do you mean people who buy bottom-end cars like the Rio or Korean new car buyers in general?"
-Backy

"while the common perception of small Korean cars is,... they are designed for drivers on a tight budget. Further, the Korean new car buyer doesn't let clumsy handling, excessive body lean, crude power train, noisy ride and/or questionable build quality effect their desire to drive those same miles in a new car."

I hope you understand how I meant the phrase "the common perception"? I do believe that this perception is starting to change in the minds of many people. My-self included. ;-)

BTW, your review of the Toyota Echo was a great review. I learned a lot from your well written piece. Very verry nice Job. I heard Car & Driver is looking for you?

-Larry

backy · December 2001

So does "common" mean that, for example, in the Family Feud game, the survey's top answer to "Country of origin of cars whose owners don't let clumsy handling, excessive body lean, crude power train, noisy ride and/or questionable build quality effect their desire to drive those same miles in a new car" is "Korea"? Or do you know of some other survey that has determined this? Or maybe you have conducted your own survey to find out what the common opinion is on this?

backy · December 2001

Thanks to Hertz at Chicago O'Hare, I got to drive the new Lancer today around suburban Chicago. It was a white automatic with 2400 miles.

My overall impression of the Lancer is that it has a solid, quality feel that does not remind you every minute you are in it that you are driving an economy car. It has a smooth, quiet ride on good roads; gets up to speed quickly (up to a point anyway); is roomy enough for 4 average-sized adults; and has no major vices. Also no major virtues, IMO. It's a car-as-appliance at its best (and in refrigerator white no less!).

Good stuff: dashboard styling (with dark fake wood trim to lend an upscale look); quiet engine (nearly silent at idle, not too loud when revved); composed ride on good roads (gets a little rough on bigger bumps and expansion strips); good driver's visibility; decent back seat room (with comfortable center arm rest); fold-down rear seat; smooth switchgear; OK standard stereo (radio/CD); adjustable driver's seat with well-placed dead pedal and good lumbar and thigh support; big door pull handles.

Not so good: Driver's seat felt as if I were sitting on a baloon; spunk disappears after about 40 mph; tachometer is blocked by the steering wheel; body lean on modest curves (no canyon-carver, here); not a lot of features for the bucks (e.g. no cruise control, fixed-interval wipers, no side air bags); shins touch the front seat (when set for 5'10" driver) and head touches the headliner in the back seat (but good toe space).

Although the car overall has a quality feel, there were some signs of cost-watching, for example: hard armrests for the driver; no map lights or sunglasses holder; cheap-looking plastic in the middle of the dash; fixed rear headrests; low-rent wheel covers.

Styling-wise, I thought the car looked better in person than in photos--the grille did not seem to stand out as much. It has a clean look that should not offend anyone. The tailights reminded me of the '89-'94 Maxima's. The interior styling was well done overall, but I didn't like the pattern in the center of the seats--it looked cheap to me. For such a subdued car, I think solid velour would have looked classier (if more boring).

Before driving the Lancer, my opinion was that it looked like a roomy, quality-built small car that was somewhat behind the competition in feature content and performance for the money. After driving it, my opinion has not changed, but I think the Lancer is a pleasant small car that would please many people looking for a daily commuter and who want an alternative to the usual Japanese suspects: Honda, Mazda, Nissan, and Toyota. Those wanting more features for less money will probably steer towards the Korean cars, or maybe the Focus.

carleton1 · December 2001

Nice, well written, complete review.
I had NO problem with the center mounted instruments and felt the ECHO was the BEST small car I have driven. It was a HOT day and with the A/C keeping my wife and I nice and cool, it drove well on bumpy city streets as well as on the smooth Interstate. No salesman went along but since it had only 45 miles or so, I did not drive it hard. (I do now want people test driving any new vehicle before I purchase it.
Just getting into, out of, and sitting in all vehicles at the Big Auto Show each January, convinced my wife and I that the ECHO is 2nd most comfortable sedan with PT Cruiser the most. However, considering price and fuel economy, the ECHO would be our first choice if we were to get a sedan instead of a minivan.

protegextwo · December 2001

"So does "common" mean that, for example, in the Family Feud game, the survey's top answer to "Country of origin of cars whose owners don't let clumsy handling, excessive body lean, crude power train, noisy ride and/or questionable build quality effect their desire to drive those same miles in a new car" is "Korea"?"
-Backy

Backy, do you live in a bubble? How about a cabin very very deep in the woods? :-)

-Larry

spiritz · December 2001

for your excellent and objective review.
Your review on Lancer was the most helpful one on the net.
Keep posting here if you test drive another one, please.

-Spiritz-

backy · December 2001

>>> Backy, do you live in a bubble? How about a cabin very very deep in the woods? <<<

No, neither. Nor do I make sweeping generalizations about what a large number of people think without something to back it up.

Do you realize that "clumsy handling, excessive body lean, crude power train, noisy ride and/or questionable build quality" can describe many cars, most of them <i>not of Korean origin? (In fact most of them are of GM origin.) And also that very few Korean cars meet that description these days? Or do you live in a time warp?

iluvmysephia1 · December 2001

Mazda warp. Once again-how have these people convinced themselves that the latest batch of Protege's are atttractive? Come on! Kia has them bonked once again. Mazda designer's must be taught to keep the cars looking appliance-like and somewhat homely. Remember, we're building Japanese cars. For Americans! Except for Mazda's Miata and Toyota's Celica they need to send their car body designer's to a warmer, cozier kind of a place. Breath deep...ahhhhhh!!!! I see a Kia coming into view! Whoa! What a cool looking car! Duh! It's a Kia!

protegextwo · December 2001

"Nor do I make sweeping generalizations about what a large number of people think without something to back it up."
-Backy

Backy, you still don't get IT. I did NOT say, that particular "generalization" was MY, personal opinion of Korean cars; in my first post. If you re-read that part of my post, you will see I'm referring to the general perception of the car buying public. "My experience is that most small Japanese cars are built for those who want to drive lots of trouble free miles in decent comfort and without worrying about feeling the road, while the common perception of small Korean cars is,... they are designed for drivers on a tight budget. Further, the Korean new car buyer doesn't let clumsy handling, excessive body lean, crude power train, noisy ride and/or questionable build quality effect their desire to drive those same miles in a new car."
-protegextwo

Furthermore, later in that KIA Rio review I also state; "Enjoying the fun, small and light "Go-cart like "maneuverability of the Rio in city-like driving was awesome. Parking was very easy. KIA has come a long way from it's startup in North America."
-protegextwo

Respectfully,
Larry

shrique · December 2001

man, Flame on!

I'm glad you love your Sephia, the main parts are Mazda anyway. Personally I have yet to see an attractive Kia. They always look like they were left out in the sun too long and started to melt.

protegextwo:
Wow takes a lot for people to READ what's in your posts doesn't it. I figured it out the first time you wrote it. I thought it was fair and stated the COMMON PERCEPTION quite nicely.

I'm out of this discussion. It seems to be Korean car lovers lashing out against the world.

protegextwo · December 2001

Shrique, I must say most of the regular folks participating in this topic are very civil. Pat_Host has suggested that we ignore "flame style" posters so this discussion can stay on topic. That is why I'm trying to clear-up the concern with my KIA Rio review. I wasn't even going to post my detailed thoughts on this vehicle, until Meade implored me too. I have learned a lot about small sedans at this discussion. Many regulars here are well spoken and level headed. Backy, Major Tom, Clayfill, Spiritz, Coolguy and many others are well spoken and write excellent concise posts that stay on topic. Do we always agree? NO! Nonetheless, we stay and continue a very fun and more importantly informative discussion. Please reconsider leaving.

-Larry

claywaterfill · December 2001

Actually, only the first generation Sephias used Mazda engines. The model like iluv had was all Kia.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

well said. Some being level headed is not good enough, we must all be. One bad apple ruins the barrel. Take that however you want anyone.

lleroi · December 2001

on in here then a mosquito infested swamp.I fail to see how melted Kia's is considered level headed or imformative.If iluv ceases coming in here it becomes a very small one sided mutual admiration society.Maybe that's what you want,but you aint gonna get it.

backy · December 2001

Protegextwo, I believe I understood exactly what you were trying to say. Whether your comments are your opinions or not is irrelevant. What you did was make a blanket statement about Korean new car buyers. You provided no foundation for your statement; that is, how did you learn that this is in fact the way that Korean new car buyers think, in general?

I can provide evidence to the contrary. If we consider which Korean new cars match your description, what would they be? I have not driven all the Korean models, but from my driving experiences and from reading from multiple sources including many Edmunds.com forums and various car mags, I claim that those cars are the Rio, Accent, and Lanos. The Spectra might be on the bubble, but having not driven it I will give it the benefit of the doubt. Now compare the sales of the Rio, Accent, and Lanos to the sales of all other Korean-made cars. There's a big difference in favor of the other cars, right? So there is some evidence that the generalization you made of "the Korean new car buyer" is inaccurate.

What evidence do you have in favor of your statement?

FWIW, I think the Protege is one of the handsomest small cars, especially the front end which I think might be the best of the low-end bunch. Now if we could graft the Protege's prow to the Elantra GLS's rear, we'd have a real looker.

protegextwo · December 2001

Whether your comments are your opinions or not is irrelevant.
-Backy

Maybe, over a cold beer or a hot toddy this would be fun? Nonetheless, it is now no longer fun. Let's agree to disagree. Backy, I like you and respect you, BTW please have the last post on this subject if you like.

-Larry

backy · December 2001

Great--maybe we can talk more about cars and less about what is going on inside the heads of certain groups of people, since no one really knows for sure--even the pollsters.

Have you figured out a way to send a beer down the wire? :-)

iluvmysephia1 · December 2001

Korean posters like yourself, too. Timely post and ideas. If this low-end car forum was left up to the majority it would be a bore-fest with Honda, Toyota, Mazda, ad naseum on and on and on. I fail to see why sticking up for the Korean-made cars is flaming. If my posts streak fire it's but an ongoing annoyance of people who dismiss these Daewoo's, Kia's and Hyundai's as junk and a joke because they're more inexpensive. As far as cold hard cash goes no new car is really cheap. You can't worry about what the common know-it-all thinks about your drive if you drive Korean, eh? That's not me to worry about what others think. The car magazines are glaring examples of this. Over on another netsite somebody posted that Kia Motors America left mints for journalists at a car show instead of lavishing them with expensive gifts like ";D

" Asian car making company does. It's a given that what you read in a new car review is not the honest truth about that car always. I don't mean "every" review but you can spot the nonsensical put-down reviews when you read them.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

Wow, you didn't flame up too much. Good for you.

panamaltd2 · December 2001

I enjoy reading Iluv's posts. They give me a comic relief in the middle of the day. It is good to know that America's nut-houses still have some perspective patients.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

I've got a nice verbal fire extinguisher to use if iluv catches ablaze.

pat · December 2001

okey-doke, folks, let's get back to the cars, please.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

coolguyky7 · December 2001

seen the preview of the 2003 Corolla yet?

It's at http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/01images/03corolla_peak.jpg

backy · December 2001

Thanks for the BIG picture! Do my eyes deceive me or do I see some of the "molten wax" look that some folks have attributed to Kia? No, that could not be--Toyota emulating Korean styling?!? ;-) The amoeba headlights are becoming pretty common, aren't they?

Maybe someone who lives in Detroit can give us a full report from the Auto Show early next month. My local show doesn't come until mid-March. :-(

iluvmysephia1 · December 2001

of Kia's new Spectra duo. Wonder how much MORE cash Toyota will ask for a comparable ride? Coolguy-'ya got the FULL Corolla picture available? Just wondering! How is Toyota supposed to comptete with Hyundai and Kia if they can't even provide a full picture for us to look at?

":)

phillygls · December 2001

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4156

I love my '01 Hyundai Elantra but I must admit that the '03 Corolla looks good.

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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