Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
If you want to have a rational discussion of the merits of the cars, then I will respond.
Otherwise, count me out.
One thing I wanted to ask any Spectra owners is if the shifts are as long as they seem to have been to me.
I especially found the shift from fourth to fifth to be extraordinarily long and it worried me that I was going to accidently shift into a lower gear and blow the engine.
Moving the ceiling from $20,000 to $15,000 cuts out many cars that really are still quite low-end by today's definition, and virtually eliminates what to me is a major dillema every time I buy a car: Loaded compact or stripped mid-size. My choice would be $17,000, at which point you get higher-line Civics and Corollas, well-equipped Sonatas and very, very stripped Accords. This is selfish because I just got a new Mitsubishi Galant for very close to that $17K fully loaded (ringer).
Volkswagen Golf (base) is a fantastic car for under $15K which I very nearly purchased - best to keep it in the group.
I like bears, so thought I'd mention them. They it here as well as TVs and boxer grills (they really just paid for his name, he didn't invent it).
Seriously though, I just traded my 1997 Sentra GXE 5-speed for the Galant, and before that owned a Kia Avella (Ford Aspire) in Korea, a Mazda 323, Mitsubishi Mirage, Toyota Corolla, and the much maligned Chevy Sprint, which when it grew up became the Metro.
One thing I have noticed is an almost "national character" to the cars of various countries, with Korean cars a bit hard to pin down. I have driven many Korean cars and came very close to buying the incredibly gorgeous Elantra GT (I love hatchbacks). Japanese cars have become rather sterile, American cars are somehow just a bit cheesy, and Korean cars tend to be close to one or the other, while not quite hitting the mark. German cars are simply gorgeous at any price point, though for mid-sized dollars you only get a compact.
My 1994 Kia Avella (Ford Aspire) was exceedingly Japanese in character, and while small and cheap, drove nice enough and was a generally pleasant ride. It felt just like a small Mazda (which it was), although build quality just wasn't on the Japanese level. The car was very quiet when new, but the rattles came quick, as did road noise, wind noise and a weird moan from the AC. Still, I put 60,000 km on the car before I left Korea, and my brother-in-law drove it for another 45,000 trouble-free kilometers.
A 1994 Mazda 323 was an exceptional small car, though lacking in equipment. It had AC and an automatic but everything else was manual. Still it had decent ride, handled very well, and was almost as quiet when I sold it with 50,000 miles as the Kia was when new. Simply excellent.
I replaced the Mazda with a 1997 Toyota Corolla (stripper) which I bought new. I had always wanted a new Corolla as for almost 20 years I had thought of them as the holy grail of automotive quality and reliability. Needless to say I was dissappointed. My car, I suspect, was wrecked before I ever got it. It had many squeeks and rattles and was constantly going back to the dealership to get them exorcized. I also found small pieces of broken glass about a month after I bought the car while cleaning under the floormat, it was tinted glass, so I knew it came from the car. After initiating arbitration, I received a call from the dealership (6 months after purchase) telling me that they had decided to give me my money back. On my way to the dealership, some a$shole in a full-size GMC pickup drifted across the center divider and hit me head on at a combined speed of 110MPH, totally demolishing my lemon Corolla (thank goodness for gap insurance).
To be fair, my Corolla was a lemon. Here is my impression in general of the 97 Corolla (which many consider a better car than the 98-present model). It was built like a tank - evidenced by my walking away from a passenger cabin that was not deformed AT ALL, had plenty of power from the base engine (100hp - 5 speed manual) and except for the rattles I had, delivered a very plush, smooth and generally EXPENSIVE-feeling ride. If you squinted a bit, it was easy to imagine you are driving a Lexus. The seats were extremely firm and supportive, the controls (what few of them there were - this was a real stripper) all reeked of quality, and generally I felt like I got far more than I paid for. Toyota quality is real people.
After the Corolla was paid off and I had to give the rental back (1997 Plymouth Breeze) I wanted to buy another Corolla, but there were $2000 rebates on Nissan Sentras, and my mind was made up based on $$$. I took delivery of a silver 1997 Sentra GXE, again a 5 speed, and had that car until this past Sunday. The Sentra was rattle free from the day I bought it until I sold it with over 56,000 miles on the clock. It always started up, though at about 32,000 developed a cold start hesitation (always started on second try), which was fixed under warranty by replacing some sort of sensor or another (ECM???).
I had a lot of fun with the Sentra, replaced the stock (crappy) General AmeriG4S tires with a set of Pirelli P400s, and generally drove it as though I had just stollen it. I revved it at every light, dumped the clutch and speed shifted, threw it around corners and generally had a ball, all without attracting much constabulary attention. The car was still completely reliable, and had only gone through normal wear items like tires, brakes and a clutch (my exuberant driving, not the car, is at fault here).
The only problem with the Sentra was that unlike the Corolla, it just looked and felt a bit cheap, which of course at $12,000 + T&L, it was. I felt poor every time I walked up to it in a parking lot, and had serious iron envy whenever I drove my wife's Saturn L200 (midsize, automatic, very nice car for the $16K we paid).
Finally it became too much and I went looking for a new car. I'll admit it, I came to within an inch of buying a compact, 4-door hatchback, a body style I've always really liked. The Mazda Protege5 is really cool and simply a blast to drive. Ditto the Hyundai Elantra GT, which with leather at under $15K is a steal. The Volkswagen Golf was also a delightful car, and despite having crank windows and manual mirrors, was my favorite of the bunch. I decided to check out the new Mistubishi Lancer on my way to buy the VW, and took that for a drive. It was a very nice car, but at $16K the Golf was much better. However, sitting right next to it was a Galant at $18K, and since I had time, I took it out for a ride.
Needless to say my compact plans were out the window and I began researching mid-size cars, something I had already done a year before when my wife bought her Saturn. I did all the rounds again and checked all the magazines and owner forums, and came to the same conclusions I did a year ago - Japanese are best in this class, and Saturn is best value (I get the GMS employee pricing). Not wanting a car exactly the same as my wife's, I started working down my list trying to get the best value I could. Camry and Altime (1st and 3rd choice, respectively) were both VERY expensive, with no dealers having base models and completely unwilling to deal on these very new models. The older m
Coincidentally, my previous car was also a silver Sentra GXE 5-speed that I got for a too-good-to-pass-up price (actually a great lease deal, $110/month). My Sentra was also very reliable, although I thought it was pretty "thin" for a $15,000 MSRP car. Now I wish I had upgraded the tires on my Sentra--that was probably its weakest link. I am much happier with my '01 Elantra, a far superior car that actually cost less than the discounted price of the Sentra. Good luck with the Galant! (I had a used '92 Galant that was a good car, but when I got it, it had 100,000 miles on it and things started breaking. I dumped it seven months later for the Sentra.)
Japan,Inc looks uniform, boring. USA stuff ? Had it with them abotu 11 years ago.
Japanese: quality and reliability
German: Style and feel
Korean: Value!
British: Status symbol (in the US at least)
Italian: Pure driving machines but spendy! (the ones that we can get here in the US that is)
French: Not an American car.
Yugoslavian: Not an American car.
Russian: Not an American car.
Chinese: Not an American car.
Vietnamese: Not an American car.
Luxembourgean: Not an American car.
Turkyean: you get the picture.
American: Self propelled transport.
Now this is strictly for brand spankin new cars.
And the worry that I was going to blow the engine came from not knowing if the Spectra had a rev limiter. I have no idea what would have happened if I had accidently shifted from fourth to first and let the clutch out.
And I guess you, lleroi, have never heard the terms long throws and short throws?
I will let someone deal with the former and I will try to deal with the latter.
To be considered, a car must be available in base form for $15,000 or under. A car is not eligible for consideration if it is substantially different from a car of the same model even if the latter is eligible for consideration.
Thus the Neon R/T is not eligible for consideration because it is substantially different from the base Neons that are eligible for consideration.
FWIW, our self-imposed ceiling is higher than the one that Edmunds set when determining their most wanted low end cars.
Hmm, I don't recall that particular restriction, but it's been awhile and a lot of posts since we talked about the limits. I had the impression that the car had to have an MSRP including destination of less than $15,000 to qualify as one of our "low-end" cars. I don't recall anything about "in base form" or "substantially different." That would lead to all sorts of interpretations as to what a "substantial difference" is. For instance, the Neon R/T has pretty much the same hardware in the critical areas as the Neon ACR, which does come in under $15,000. So why doesn't the R/T qualify? And the Protege LX and EX have lots more/different equipment than the DX, but the same body and engine--so should they qualify or not? Is the Civic EX substantially different than the DX, since it has a different engine, ABS, moonroof, revised interior, etc.?
I think it would be a lot more straightforward if we make it a simple limit; if the car has an MSRP including destination under the limit, it's in. If not, it's out.
Also, the decision to to, for example, with a loaded Corolla or a stripped Camry (substitute Sentra/Altima, Civic/Accord, Lancer/Galant, etc) is a discussion many car buyers have before hitting the showrooms.
I was actually out shopping for a loaded compact and ended up making the jump to mid-size instead.
As far as the $15,000 limit goes,lighten-up ,leave a 10% to 15% leeway.This allows for the inclusions of models that regularly are discounted to the $15,000 level.This would certainly bring some reality to this topic.The Honda value package(or whatever)at $15,000 and some change is a viable option to a loaded up Echo,Mirage,etc.This also allows to bring base Optimas and Sonatas into the discussion.
I agree that the discussion of whether to buy a loaded small car or a base mid-sized car is valuable to buyers, but we can have that discussion here without raising the "low-end" definition to ridiculous heights and without going off-topic because we'd still be talking about low-end cars. I do not agree that cars like the Optima and Sonata are "low-end" cars. They are mid-range cars, ala Malibu, Grand Am, and Stratus. Maybe there should be a board for that class of cars.
"Another area that you should notice carefully - if you flush your eyes through the rear bumper of the Altis, you’ll notice that the exhaust pipe is barely visible. This is because Toyota engineers had worked painstakingly to conceal the exhaust pipe to provide an attractive exterior that also helps the underbody aerodynamics. Such impeccable details can only be from Toyota."
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Plenty of Europeans (at least VW) can be had as well, the base Jetta and base Golf (even the diesel) or the mid-level Golf GLS fit into this range, the GLS being particularly well-equipped.
So far I am loving the Galant, and while I miss my Sentra's 5-speed, that slushbox is great in traffic.
Well, maybe in the minds of Toyota's marketeers they can only be from Toyota. For instance, next time you see a current-generation Elantra, take a look at the exhaust pipe--if you can see it. IMO a concealed exhaust pipe is not such a unique feature that it deserves special mention on a web site. But then I don't write marketing material for car companies. They probably wax poetic for three or four paragraphs about the new door handles. ;-)
BTW... how does one "flush your eyes through the rear bumper" of a car, anyway? Sounds to me like a web page language translation program run amok!
That being said, for an extra $2,000 I would get a comparable Toyota or Honda over a Hyundai. You'll get it back at resale.
However, I would seriously look at an Elantra if I was looking for a commuter car that I planned on keeping until it dies, and the price was right.
-jsylvester
Got to agree with you, on that point.
-Larry
-jsylvester
Got to agree with you, on that point.
-Larry
-jsylvester
I Cannot agree with you on that point! Name one domestic car sold for under $17,000 worth buying?
Seriously major that was the only post I saw any concern for that problem.You must admit,that concern was like worrying about mistaking salt for sugar.It's not completely illogical but it "hardly"ever happens.Would be interesting tho to bring a car back with a blown engine.If that happens I would be happy to provide "expert"testamony.
And I don't consider it in the same (minor) league as mistaking salt and sugar.
IMO, here's a few domestic cars (depending on how you define that term; some of these are not made in the U.S.) I think are worth buying under the right circumstances, that sell for under $17,000:
Buick Century
Chevy Malibu
Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager
Dodge Neon ACR and R/T
Ford Focus ZTS, ZTW, ZX3 and ZX5
Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable
Mercury Cougar
Olds Alero
Pontiac Grand Am
Saturn SL2 and SC2
Saturn L100
I resisted the urge to add cars like Honda Civic and Accord that are for all intents and purposes "domestic" cars (made in U.S., with mostly domestic content).
I'm not saying that I would buy these cars (except the Caravan, but mine was way over $17k; and maybe the Focus) but I think they can fill the bill for some drivers.
I wanted a cushy cruiser this time, and would likely have bought the Century if it was available at my $17,000 ceiling (and if BOTH Buick dealers didn't try to low-ball my trade).
Chevy Malibu
Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager
Dodge Neon ACR and R/T
Ford Focus ZTS, ZTW, ZX3 and ZX5
Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable
Mercury Cougar
Olds Alero
Pontiac Grand Am
Saturn SL2 and SC2
Saturn L100
Yuk! I would not purchase any of these cars. Just my opinion. I'm sure some of these are fine. However, nothing here is top box or leads their respective segments in style/function, reliability or build quality. I do agree the Focus and Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager are respectable vehicles and good values. Just not my cup of tea.
-Larry
Generally true, but... the Focus is "top box" in its class according to Consumer Reports and Car and Driver, to name two independent sources. The DaimlerChrysler minivans are generally regarded as the most stylish minivans, also the best riding and handling. And the Century and Saturn SL have very good reliability records.
God Bless,
Larry
You know
Accent and Lancer and Focus and Spectra,
ECHO and Neon and Civic and Sentra,
but do you recall
the least pricey small car of all?
Rio, the smallest Kia,
has a very pleasing price
but if you'd ever drive one
you wouldn't think it's quite so nice.
All of the other small cars
used to laugh and call him names;
they never let poor Rio
join them driving down the lanes.
During the recession of zero-one,
Santa came to say,
"Rio, with your price so light,
Won't you guide my sleigh tonight?"
Then all his owners loved him,
and they shouted out with glee,
"Rio, you have a low price
plus the greatest warranty!"
-Larry
Brent is a former owner of a Honda Accord who looked at most small sedans and purchased a 2000 Malibu. Since the answer does not please protegextwo, it appears that he feels he must be sarcastic.
And yes, John and Nikki had a Mazda MPV (SUV...not the anemic, underpowered MINI-van) and they traded it in on a Honda Passport made by Isuzu. Apparently not everyone is as impressed with Mazda as is protegextwo.