Low End Sedans (under $16k)

panamaltd2 · December 2001

I don't think Toyota is really very worried about competing with Kia or Hyundai.

phillygls · December 2001

If Toyota doesn't worry about up and coming competition than they will make the same mistake that the Big three made in the 70's, 80's and 90's. Chrysler's reluctance to "worry" about the competition is why Toyota is about to surpass them in market share. This same principle goes for Honda, Ford, GM, etc...

claywaterfill · December 2001

Thanks for the pic. The story says the European Corolla won't look like the US Corolla. I guess this was a European Corolla?

claywaterfill · December 2001

It's only in this country that Kia is "up and coming." They have been building cars for about 55 years now. It's only been--IMO--in the last year or two that they have even been trying to compete with the Japanese. I think the first few years were spent getting their name out there. Hyundai hasn't been "up and coming" since the late 1980's.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

Let's talk "cheap." First of all, the Corolla in most cases costs more than any competing Kia, and for good reason. Better materials are used. We don't have to look any further than the stereo components. Look at the Kia stereo display compared with the new Corolla's. The Kia displays very few characters. Corolla's stereo displays more letters. Yes, it may be petty, but when it comes down to the skin and bones, Toyota is willing to spend the little extra to make those tiny things better. Oh and second, let's look at interior designs. Kia uses the same interior dash layout and design in several models. Just a cost saving measure, plain and simple.

newcar31 · December 2001

That has to be the European Corolla. I doubt they would have the North American Corolla at the Frankfurt auto show.

majorthomecho · December 2001

The article clearly says that was the European Corolla and the Corolla to be sold stateside will look different.

majorthomecho · December 2001

Iluv, I have decided to stop responding to your posts if they consist solely of insults toward people who do not share your opinion of Kia or if the post consists of the idea that Kia is better simply because they are better looking cars (in your opinion).

If you want to have a rational discussion of the merits of the cars, then I will respond.

Otherwise, count me out.

majorthomecho · December 2001

I had an opportunity to test drive a manual Spectra yesterday. I am not prepared to give a detailed review since it was cold and the salesman went along which hampered my trying out the car like I wanted.

One thing I wanted to ask any Spectra owners is if the shifts are as long as they seem to have been to me.

I especially found the shift from fourth to fifth to be extraordinarily long and it worried me that I was going to accidently shift into a lower gear and blow the engine.

lawman1967 · December 2001

Been reading here for a while and would like to put in my $0.02

Moving the ceiling from $20,000 to $15,000 cuts out many cars that really are still quite low-end by today's definition, and virtually eliminates what to me is a major dillema every time I buy a car: Loaded compact or stripped mid-size. My choice would be $17,000, at which point you get higher-line Civics and Corollas, well-equipped Sonatas and very, very stripped Accords. This is selfish because I just got a new Mitsubishi Galant for very close to that $17K fully loaded (ringer).

Volkswagen Golf (base) is a fantastic car for under $15K which I very nearly purchased - best to keep it in the group.

I like bears, so thought I'd mention them. They it here as well as TVs and boxer grills (they really just paid for his name, he didn't invent it).

Seriously though, I just traded my 1997 Sentra GXE 5-speed for the Galant, and before that owned a Kia Avella (Ford Aspire) in Korea, a Mazda 323, Mitsubishi Mirage, Toyota Corolla, and the much maligned Chevy Sprint, which when it grew up became the Metro.

One thing I have noticed is an almost "national character" to the cars of various countries, with Korean cars a bit hard to pin down. I have driven many Korean cars and came very close to buying the incredibly gorgeous Elantra GT (I love hatchbacks). Japanese cars have become rather sterile, American cars are somehow just a bit cheesy, and Korean cars tend to be close to one or the other, while not quite hitting the mark. German cars are simply gorgeous at any price point, though for mid-sized dollars you only get a compact.

My 1994 Kia Avella (Ford Aspire) was exceedingly Japanese in character, and while small and cheap, drove nice enough and was a generally pleasant ride. It felt just like a small Mazda (which it was), although build quality just wasn't on the Japanese level. The car was very quiet when new, but the rattles came quick, as did road noise, wind noise and a weird moan from the AC. Still, I put 60,000 km on the car before I left Korea, and my brother-in-law drove it for another 45,000 trouble-free kilometers.

A 1994 Mazda 323 was an exceptional small car, though lacking in equipment. It had AC and an automatic but everything else was manual. Still it had decent ride, handled very well, and was almost as quiet when I sold it with 50,000 miles as the Kia was when new. Simply excellent.

I replaced the Mazda with a 1997 Toyota Corolla (stripper) which I bought new. I had always wanted a new Corolla as for almost 20 years I had thought of them as the holy grail of automotive quality and reliability. Needless to say I was dissappointed. My car, I suspect, was wrecked before I ever got it. It had many squeeks and rattles and was constantly going back to the dealership to get them exorcized. I also found small pieces of broken glass about a month after I bought the car while cleaning under the floormat, it was tinted glass, so I knew it came from the car. After initiating arbitration, I received a call from the dealership (6 months after purchase) telling me that they had decided to give me my money back. On my way to the dealership, some a$shole in a full-size GMC pickup drifted across the center divider and hit me head on at a combined speed of 110MPH, totally demolishing my lemon Corolla (thank goodness for gap insurance).

To be fair, my Corolla was a lemon. Here is my impression in general of the 97 Corolla (which many consider a better car than the 98-present model). It was built like a tank - evidenced by my walking away from a passenger cabin that was not deformed AT ALL, had plenty of power from the base engine (100hp - 5 speed manual) and except for the rattles I had, delivered a very plush, smooth and generally EXPENSIVE-feeling ride. If you squinted a bit, it was easy to imagine you are driving a Lexus. The seats were extremely firm and supportive, the controls (what few of them there were - this was a real stripper) all reeked of quality, and generally I felt like I got far more than I paid for. Toyota quality is real people.

After the Corolla was paid off and I had to give the rental back (1997 Plymouth Breeze) I wanted to buy another Corolla, but there were $2000 rebates on Nissan Sentras, and my mind was made up based on $$$. I took delivery of a silver 1997 Sentra GXE, again a 5 speed, and had that car until this past Sunday. The Sentra was rattle free from the day I bought it until I sold it with over 56,000 miles on the clock. It always started up, though at about 32,000 developed a cold start hesitation (always started on second try), which was fixed under warranty by replacing some sort of sensor or another (ECM???).

I had a lot of fun with the Sentra, replaced the stock (crappy) General AmeriG4S tires with a set of Pirelli P400s, and generally drove it as though I had just stollen it. I revved it at every light, dumped the clutch and speed shifted, threw it around corners and generally had a ball, all without attracting much constabulary attention. The car was still completely reliable, and had only gone through normal wear items like tires, brakes and a clutch (my exuberant driving, not the car, is at fault here).

The only problem with the Sentra was that unlike the Corolla, it just looked and felt a bit cheap, which of course at $12,000 + T&L, it was. I felt poor every time I walked up to it in a parking lot, and had serious iron envy whenever I drove my wife's Saturn L200 (midsize, automatic, very nice car for the $16K we paid).

Finally it became too much and I went looking for a new car. I'll admit it, I came to within an inch of buying a compact, 4-door hatchback, a body style I've always really liked. The Mazda Protege5 is really cool and simply a blast to drive. Ditto the Hyundai Elantra GT, which with leather at under $15K is a steal. The Volkswagen Golf was also a delightful car, and despite having crank windows and manual mirrors, was my favorite of the bunch. I decided to check out the new Mistubishi Lancer on my way to buy the VW, and took that for a drive. It was a very nice car, but at $16K the Golf was much better. However, sitting right next to it was a Galant at $18K, and since I had time, I took it out for a ride.

Needless to say my compact plans were out the window and I began researching mid-size cars, something I had already done a year before when my wife bought her Saturn. I did all the rounds again and checked all the magazines and owner forums, and came to the same conclusions I did a year ago - Japanese are best in this class, and Saturn is best value (I get the GMS employee pricing). Not wanting a car exactly the same as my wife's, I started working down my list trying to get the best value I could. Camry and Altime (1st and 3rd choice, respectively) were both VERY expensive, with no dealers having base models and completely unwilling to deal on these very new models. The older m

lleroi · December 2001

-accidently shifting into lower gear and blowing the engine?Well,yeah,if you are doing about 130 and shift to 3rd instead of 5th that would make a racket alright.To be honest ,the interior of the Spectra may be quite spacious compared to an Echo;but hardly large enough to afford an inordinately long shift throw.You can probably roll the passenger window down from the drivers seat without unhooking the seat belt.

backy · December 2001

Thanks for your story--hope to see you back here frequently. As for upping the low-end max to $17,000, IMO that puts us into a class of distinctly non-low-end cars, like the Sonata you mentioned. But it would also open up the discussion to non-stripper versions of the Japanese compacts, and just barely get us into VW territory also to add more European cars to the group. So I could go for it if that's the consensus. It would give us more to talk about and that is a good thing.

Coincidentally, my previous car was also a silver Sentra GXE 5-speed that I got for a too-good-to-pass-up price (actually a great lease deal, $110/month). My Sentra was also very reliable, although I thought it was pretty "thin" for a $15,000 MSRP car. Now I wish I had upgraded the tires on my Sentra--that was probably its weakest link. I am much happier with my '01 Elantra, a far superior car that actually cost less than the discounted price of the Sentra. Good luck with the Galant! (I had a used '92 Galant that was a good car, but when I got it, it had 100,000 miles on it and things started breaking. I dumped it seven months later for the Sentra.)

hjr2 · December 2001

Hyundai is my favorite automaker right now. why? They have style, decent enough power, and the price is right.

Japan,Inc looks uniform, boring. USA stuff ? Had it with them abotu 11 years ago.

shrique · December 2001

Here is a quick list of countries that I would buy a car from in order from the most likely to the least likely.

Japanese: quality and reliability
German: Style and feel
Korean: Value!
British: Status symbol (in the US at least)
Italian: Pure driving machines but spendy! (the ones that we can get here in the US that is)
French: Not an American car.
Yugoslavian: Not an American car.
Russian: Not an American car.
Chinese: Not an American car.
Vietnamese: Not an American car.
Luxembourgean: Not an American car.
Turkyean: you get the picture.
American: Self propelled transport.

Now this is strictly for brand spankin new cars.

claywaterfill · December 2001

You would buy an American car ahead of an Iranian car! That ought to be worth something, huh?

williamshim · December 2001

hummmmmmmmmmm, I don't really see style and feel in low-end german car......... What is a low-end german car anyway? a striped Jetta?

majorthomecho · December 2001

I am just calling it like I see it and it was not a matter of making the shift from fourth to fifth and ending up in third. It was a case of shifting from fourth and not being sure what gear I was in. I might have been in first or third. I just knew I was not in fifth, but since I had not let out the clutch, I went back to neutral and searched for fifth.

And the worry that I was going to blow the engine came from not knowing if the Spectra had a rev limiter. I have no idea what would have happened if I had accidently shifted from fourth to first and let the clutch out.

And I guess you, lleroi, have never heard the terms long throws and short throws?

majorthomecho · December 2001

Since it looks like we have some new blood, perhaps we should tell them why we set the $15,000 ceiling and how we figured which cars would be included.

I will let someone deal with the former and I will try to deal with the latter.

To be considered, a car must be available in base form for $15,000 or under. A car is not eligible for consideration if it is substantially different from a car of the same model even if the latter is eligible for consideration.

Thus the Neon R/T is not eligible for consideration because it is substantially different from the base Neons that are eligible for consideration.

FWIW, our self-imposed ceiling is higher than the one that Edmunds set when determining their most wanted low end cars.

backy · December 2001

>>> To be considered, a car must be available in base form for $15,000 or under. <<<

Hmm, I don't recall that particular restriction, but it's been awhile and a lot of posts since we talked about the limits. I had the impression that the car had to have an MSRP including destination of less than $15,000 to qualify as one of our "low-end" cars. I don't recall anything about "in base form" or "substantially different." That would lead to all sorts of interpretations as to what a "substantial difference" is. For instance, the Neon R/T has pretty much the same hardware in the critical areas as the Neon ACR, which does come in under $15,000. So why doesn't the R/T qualify? And the Protege LX and EX have lots more/different equipment than the DX, but the same body and engine--so should they qualify or not? Is the Civic EX substantially different than the DX, since it has a different engine, ABS, moonroof, revised interior, etc.?

I think it would be a lot more straightforward if we make it a simple limit; if the car has an MSRP including destination under the limit, it's in. If not, it's out.

lawman1967 · December 2001

Problem is, there is this forum, then the high-end forum for those $50K+ luxo machines, and nothing in between.

Also, the decision to to, for example, with a loaded Corolla or a stripped Camry (substitute Sentra/Altima, Civic/Accord, Lancer/Galant, etc) is a discussion many car buyers have before hitting the showrooms.

I was actually out shopping for a loaded compact and ended up making the jump to mid-size instead.

lleroi · December 2001

a Spectra(and why would anyone want to do that)I think you would have a good idea what gear you were in way be before the clutch was fully engaged.I have never ever heard of anyone over reving an engine and blowing it ,unless they were at a drag strip.And if I never heard of it ,it never happened.
As far as the $15,000 limit goes,lighten-up ,leave a 10% to 15% leeway.This allows for the inclusions of models that regularly are discounted to the $15,000 level.This would certainly bring some reality to this topic.The Honda value package(or whatever)at $15,000 and some change is a viable option to a loaded up Echo,Mirage,etc.This also allows to bring base Optimas and Sonatas into the discussion.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

At least all of us arguing Japanese vs. Korean (which is essentially what this is) aren't doing that country bumpkin thing where "daddy bought a Chevy, so little Jonnie buys a Chevy too." Blah! Some people need to wake up and see that there are more choices in the world, not just Ford and Chevy.

backy · December 2001

OK, why don't we just open it up to everything below $50,000 and then between this board and the over-$50k board we'll cover all the cars. ;-)

I agree that the discussion of whether to buy a loaded small car or a base mid-sized car is valuable to buyers, but we can have that discussion here without raising the "low-end" definition to ridiculous heights and without going off-topic because we'd still be talking about low-end cars. I do not agree that cars like the Optima and Sonata are "low-end" cars. They are mid-range cars, ala Malibu, Grand Am, and Stratus. Maybe there should be a board for that class of cars.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

This is a quote directly off the Toyota Malaysia website concerning the Corolla Altis.

"Another area that you should notice carefully - if you flush your eyes through the rear bumper of the Altis, youll notice that the exhaust pipe is barely visible. This is because Toyota engineers had worked painstakingly to conceal the exhaust pipe to provide an attractive exterior that also helps the underbody aerodynamics. Such impeccable details can only be from Toyota."

iluvmysephia1 · December 2001

coolguy, that's gonna make me get rid of my Sportage for a Corolla of my own! A concealed tailpipe? Watch, a concealed charge of $2,000 to pay for that "concealing engineering!" Mr.major-I never asked for your overly-biased view towards Korean cars in the first place so to have you not respond to my posts would be like biting into a hot apple fritter. Good day!

lawman1967 · December 2001

Well, just created a list for people who want to discuss loaded compact vs. base mid size (very few base model midsize cars are stripped anymore). Set the ceiling at $18,500 so you can sneak in an Accord DX 4-cylinder with crank windows or a loaded Sonata V6 or Civic EX.

Plenty of Europeans (at least VW) can be had as well, the base Jetta and base Golf (even the diesel) or the mid-level Golf GLS fit into this range, the GLS being particularly well-equipped.

So far I am loving the Galant, and while I miss my Sentra's 5-speed, that slushbox is great in traffic.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

I'm not here to argue. I'm just saying that Toyota does those little things to make their cars more civilized looking and not so rough edged...figuratively of course.

backy · December 2001

>>> Such impeccable details can only be from Toyota. <<<

Well, maybe in the minds of Toyota's marketeers they can only be from Toyota. For instance, next time you see a current-generation Elantra, take a look at the exhaust pipe--if you can see it. IMO a concealed exhaust pipe is not such a unique feature that it deserves special mention on a web site. But then I don't write marketing material for car companies. They probably wax poetic for three or four paragraphs about the new door handles. ;-)

BTW... how does one "flush your eyes through the rear bumper" of a car, anyway? Sounds to me like a web page language translation program run amok!

williamshim · December 2001

So base Jetta is off limit here then....I think the base is set around $17K MSRP for 2002 Jetta...

jsylvester · December 2001

You are correct, times have changed. Now all I hear is, "My parents own Japanese/German, so I will as well." Usually the Consumer Reports type, or single woman paranoid about the world. People need to wake up and realize there are some great domestic automobiles out there.

That being said, for an extra $2,000 I would get a comparable Toyota or Honda over a Hyundai. You'll get it back at resale.

However, I would seriously look at an Elantra if I was looking for a commuter car that I planned on keeping until it dies, and the price was right.

protegextwo · December 2001

"That being said, for an extra $2,000 I would get a comparable Toyota or Honda over a Hyundai. You'll get it back at resale."
-jsylvester

Got to agree with you, on that point.
-Larry

protegextwo · December 2001

"However, I would seriously look at an Elantra if I was looking for a commuter car that I planned on keeping until it dies, and the price was right."

-jsylvester

Got to agree with you, on that point.

-Larry

protegextwo · December 2001

"People need to wake up and realize there are some great domestic automobiles out there."

-jsylvester

I Cannot agree with you on that point! Name one domestic car sold for under $17,000 worth buying?

majorthomecho · December 2001

lleroi, if I end up with a blown engine when I test drive the Spectra again, I will tell the dealer that everything is all right because you were not around to see it so it did not happen.

lleroi · December 2001

learning to select the more credible sources.
Seriously major that was the only post I saw any concern for that problem.You must admit,that concern was like worrying about mistaking salt for sugar.It's not completely illogical but it "hardly"ever happens.Would be interesting tho to bring a car back with a blown engine.If that happens I would be happy to provide "expert"testamony.

majorthomecho · December 2001

lleroi, I am just being honest and telling of a concern I had.

And I don't consider it in the same (minor) league as mistaking salt and sugar.

backy · December 2001

>>> Name one domestic car sold for under $17,000 worth buying? <<<

IMO, here's a few domestic cars (depending on how you define that term; some of these are not made in the U.S.) I think are worth buying under the right circumstances, that sell for under $17,000:

Buick Century
Chevy Malibu
Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager
Dodge Neon ACR and R/T
Ford Focus ZTS, ZTW, ZX3 and ZX5
Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable
Mercury Cougar
Olds Alero
Pontiac Grand Am
Saturn SL2 and SC2
Saturn L100

I resisted the urge to add cars like Honda Civic and Accord that are for all intents and purposes "domestic" cars (made in U.S., with mostly domestic content).

I'm not saying that I would buy these cars (except the Caravan, but mine was way over $17k; and maybe the Focus) but I think they can fill the bill for some drivers.

coolguyky7 · December 2001

I can't agree on the Focus. It is nice style wise and the price has been right on the sedan but it gets ridiculous on those hatchback versions. Ford needs to start worrying when one of their best selling models has sticking cruise controls, wheels wobbling off, brakes rusting and other problems. Other than all of those hazards, it's a pretty decent car.

backy · December 2001

I agree, the Focus has too many quality problems for my taste--and an uncomfortable driver's seat to boot. But its performance has been generally hailed by the automotive press, including Edmunds.com, Consumer Reports, and Car and Driver, which just named it (again) one of its 10 Best. So it must have something going for it, so much so that it's one of the top-ten selling cars in the U.S.--a position a lot of low-end cars would like to be in. Aside from the quality issues, it's the only domestic small car that can compete head-on with the best from overseas. Personally I like the looks of the hatchbacks, especially the ZX5, better than the sedans.

lawman1967 · December 2001

I wish the Buick Century was available for $17000. I get the GM employee price (GMS and GMO) due to my mother having retired from GM, and even with discounts (a bit under invoice) the Century was still about $18,500, give or take a few hundred bucks.

I wanted a cushy cruiser this time, and would likely have bought the Century if it was available at my $17,000 ceiling (and if BOTH Buick dealers didn't try to low-ball my trade).

backy · December 2001

I know I have seen the Century advertised in my area under $17,000. It may have been a one-time deal, maybe a year-end closeout, maybe even a demo, who knows. But they usually do go for over $17k. Personally I wouldn't buy a Century at any price--just not my kind of car. And not a low-end car either.

protegextwo · December 2001

Buick Century
Chevy Malibu
Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager
Dodge Neon ACR and R/T
Ford Focus ZTS, ZTW, ZX3 and ZX5
Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable
Mercury Cougar
Olds Alero
Pontiac Grand Am
Saturn SL2 and SC2
Saturn L100

Yuk! I would not purchase any of these cars. Just my opinion. I'm sure some of these are fine. However, nothing here is top box or leads their respective segments in style/function, reliability or build quality. I do agree the Focus and Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager are respectable vehicles and good values. Just not my cup of tea.

-Larry

backy · December 2001

>>> However, nothing here is top box or leads their respective segments in style/function, reliability or build quality. <<<

Generally true, but... the Focus is "top box" in its class according to Consumer Reports and Car and Driver, to name two independent sources. The DaimlerChrysler minivans are generally regarded as the most stylish minivans, also the best riding and handling. And the Century and Saturn SL have very good reliability records.

protegextwo · December 2001

Merry Christmas and have a happy New Year! Be safe and enjoy some time with family & Friends. Best wishes for the holidays and a hope for a prosperous New Year for all!

God Bless,
Larry

backy · December 2001

You know
Accent and Lancer and Focus and Spectra,
ECHO and Neon and Civic and Sentra,
but do you recall
the least pricey small car of all?

Rio, the smallest Kia,
has a very pleasing price
but if you'd ever drive one
you wouldn't think it's quite so nice.

All of the other small cars
used to laugh and call him names;
they never let poor Rio
join them driving down the lanes.

During the recession of zero-one,
Santa came to say,
"Rio, with your price so light,
Won't you guide my sleigh tonight?"

Then all his owners loved him,
and they shouted out with glee,
"Rio, you have a low price
plus the greatest warranty!"

coolguyky7 · December 2001

Did you write that yourself? It's very clever. Merry Christmas!

backy · December 2001

It is original. I am seeking professional help after the holidays. Well, gotta go assemble Barbie's Play House...

carleton1 · December 2001

Comfort, quality, performance. Although Brent loved his Accord, when he and his wife comparison shopped they looked at many small and mid size sedans. Both felt the ECHO looked and felt cheap (which is quite different from my opinion). Brent says Honda are nice vehicles but are NOT worth the price.

protegextwo · December 2001

What is the relevance of your lovely families choice of vehicles, (over 15 years ago!!!), have with this discussion? Somebody please, direct Carleton back to the NEWS & VIEWS board. I'm sure their is some topic called "Why did my step-son, a Volkswagen Passat owner buy a Cheverolet Impala?", that would welcome his thoughts on Domestic mid-size sedans vs. Imports mid-size sedans. BTW, who is Brent?

-Larry

carleton1 · December 2001

Since rude behavior seems to be the norm for some posters here, please scroll back to read the question posed by protegextwo.
Brent is a former owner of a Honda Accord who looked at most small sedans and purchased a 2000 Malibu. Since the answer does not please protegextwo, it appears that he feels he must be sarcastic.
And yes, John and Nikki had a Mazda MPV (SUV...not the anemic, underpowered MINI-van) and they traded it in on a Honda Passport made by Isuzu. Apparently not everyone is as impressed with Mazda as is protegextwo.

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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