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Comments
Majorthomecho: I think you aren't quite grasping my point. Is the Echo in its current form WORTH more then 14k? The Echo is a nice little car and will probably prove to be reliable, but it's not WORTH more then 14k. It just doesn't have the more expensive trimmings you would expect of a car of that price, nor does it exude that high quality appearance. The Echo was built with 10k prices in mind and therefore has the look and feel of one. That's why I said someone would be stupid to pay much more then 14k for one, when there are other cars that get almost as good fuel economy and actually look and feel like they are worth their price. The size of the car has little to do with it. I prefer small cars, just like yourself. I mean I do own an 84 VW Rabbit GTI and a 92 Miata as well. I wouldn't give them up for anything, unless they were destroyed in an accident. Would I buy the new Mini? Probably, if I liked how it looked and drove in person. Is it worth 17-21k? Damn right! It looks expensive, feels expensive, drives expensive, and has options only expensive cars offer. Do you understand where I'm coming from more now?
Do you happen to have a URL to the JD Power study that you referred to, that demonstrates this superiority? I couldn't find it. I did find a 2001 Initial Quality Survey on www.jdpower.com that clearly demonstrates the superiority of the Japanese makes, especially Toyota/Lexus, in initial quality. No surprise there. Honda/Acura took a couple of categories, Nissan too (interestingly, the awards were for the oldest designs of each automaker). But I didn't see any evidence of American superiority over Korean vehicles in that study, because none of the four American vehicles that took honors were in a class that has any Korean vehicles in it. So it's kind of hard to compare initial quality when there's nothing to compare with, right? Also, only one European car took a category, the Saab 9-5; again, there is no Korean car in that category. So I figure you are referring to a different study.
I am sorry but I have trouble posting a link on here. AOL is just so much easier in that regard.
Maybe it is different here, but every car backy just mentioned starts a couple k higher then the Echo.
The Canadian Echo comes in at $17k with CD, power locks/keyless entry, AC, and automatic. The only other car I've found that you can roll off the lot for this price is a base Cavalier (yuck)
It looks very gawky, but I can see past the outer shell of cars.
And it happens to be my opinion that the Lancer OZ is not worth the premium you pay over the base Lancer ES. What did you get for that price anyway? Pretty much a fancier set of wheels, wasn't it? Did that extra price get you a higher quality in interiors?
If performance was the overriding factor in your purchase and I know it was not, but if it was, there are better small cars out there. And the Echo has a better 0 to 60 and quarter mile times.
And it doesn't matter if it is an inch or a mile, winning is winning. ; )
And while the quality of the materials in the Echo may be inexpensive, the way they are put together is top notch. Witness the Echo being in the top three of small cars in the JD Powers survey of initial quality. And how do you put a [exact] price on that? That quality of workmanship is something that attracts a lot of people as it attracted me.
So what if I can get an Elantra GT for 14k, it won't have the same [build] quality as a Toyota Echo of the same price.
* Fit of body panels top-notch on the GT (Hyundai uses the same type of assembly robots as does MB); huge gap between front and rear doors on ECHO (may be planned that way, but it looks cheap).
* Solid thunk from doors on GT; much tinnier sound from ECHO.
* Thick, solid sun visors with solid plastic flip doors on large vanity mirrors on GT; thin, flimsy sun visors with tiny vanity mirrors covered by floppy velcroized doors on ECHO.
* Smooth rotary and electronic push-button HVAC controls on ECHO; cheap-feeling manual controls on ECHO.
* Padded armrests on GT; hard plastic arm rests (on doors only) on ECHO.
* Beautifully stitched leather seating surfaces on GT; typical econobox cloth on ECHO.
Quite true, but that's not what I said. I said that one can <i>buy those cars I mentioned at around $14k (that's USD, to be clear), with some negotiating. Actually, I was being conservative. In my town, one can buy the cars I listed at around $14k with no negotiating, because I've recently seen the cars at those prices in local ads. If someone prefers a basic econobox like the ECHO to a refined compact car like the Corolla, Protege, Elantra GT, or Civic, that's great. But when it's my hard-earned money I'm spending, I expect something more for it.
Here is the URL for the list of Initial Quality studies on www.jdpower.com:
http://www.jdpower.com/auto/search/filter.asp?KeywordValueID=46&CatID=1
There is only one study I've found on jdpower.com that covers worldwide Initial Quality for 2001; the URL is:
http://www.jdpower.com/auto/search/filter.asp?KeywordValueID=46&CatID=1
If your URL is too long to be copied in one piece, you could copy it in segments and then it's a simple matter for others to copy/paste to reassemble it.
On this topic, here is the URL for a story from today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution that talks about the improving quality of Korean cars vis-a-vis American cars (among other things):
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/friday/wheels_c32d91dcf20c30db00a8.html
Hope this helps.
Pat
Sedans Host
MTE:
KBB
ZIP 54914
TOYOTA 2002 ECHO 1415 SEDAN 4D
RETAIL: $10585 + 485 (DESTIN) + 1020 (UPGRADE#1)=
$12,090 {+22%}
KIA 2002 SPECTRA 24401 SEDAN 4D
RETAIL: $10995 + 495 (DESTIN) - 2000 (REBATE)=
$9,490
TOYOTA 2002 COROLLA 1711 SEDAN 4D
RETAIL: $12568 + 495 (DESTIN) =
$13,053 (+28%}
Your allegation of quoting Spectra before destin
& Echo after is not valid. I did not originally'
quote destination; however, I have now. Emperical proof, of whatever it means, but you can reproduce the results yourself. Be my guest.
Supreme.
I went back to the list of pages I have seen recently and highlighted the description for the page I wanted. The second page did not pop up so I was able to see the URL for the page I wanted.
I originally posted the URL, but after I posted this message, I clicked on the link my giving the URL generated and I got the message that the page could not be found. I then tried editing the URL and clicking on the edited version, but again it told me that the page could not be found so I have deleted the URL.
The link SHOULD have taken you to the story that appeared in USA Today about the 2001 JD Power survey results.
The Saturn sounds like a great deal to me. I would take one of those long before a Kia.
Happy now? ; )
MTE:
When I suggested that Echo was giving 41mpg I was just using MTE shared information on your experience. And of course, 41-38=3. So I simply said Echo was getting 3mpg better that Kia Spectra at 38mpg & that I wouldn't spend an extra $3000 for the extra 3mpg. BTW 3d Spectra tank of
66/33 town & country driving yielded 27.5mpg.
Supreme.
I think you were pretty clear about the standings of the JD Power survey in your earlier post, so why beat it into the ground? I can read. It just amazes me sometimes the reasoning some people use to justify their opinions. I guess that's why these forums are like a box of chocolates--you never know what you're going to get.
The other truth is that people tend to vehemently defend what they buy, considering a negative opinion about their personal choice of wheels as an insult to them personally.
The fact is, Korean cars are much better than they used to be, as evidenced by reviews here on Edmunds, in the magazines and yes, in JD Power. That said, they still have yet to equal the Americans, Europeans and Japanese, which is backed up by those same sources.
I lived in South Korea for two years (94-95) and have seen the progress of the Korean industry. I owned a Kia Avella (Ford Aspire) at that time, anddespite niggling quality issues, was pleased with it. That experience is typical of Korean cars. The engines, transmissions and other hard parts are fine. Simple, a tad less sophisticated (usually shown in poor MPG), and rougher around the edges (notchy transmissions, etc), but they work reliably.
Todays Korean cars are much better, especially the Hyundais. Cars like the Sonata, Elantra GT and Santa Fe show very high build quality, provide well-controlled rides and pleasant interiors. They still lack in sophisticated road manners, but are much better than they used to be.
Problem is, Europe, the US and Japan (usually) get better too. My 2002 Mitsubishi Galant is a huge improvement over my classmate's 1997 model (one generation). A colleague at work has a 2001 Nissan Sentra, which likewise is a huge improvement over the 1997 Sentra I just traded in last year (also a one generation difference). We look at how much better the current Elantra, Spectra, Sonata or whatever is than the previous one, but forget that with the possible exception of the Civic, the Japanese show equal or greater improvements as well.
Go drive a Mitsubishi Lancer. This car replaces the Mirage, and is so vastly superior to what it replaced that I even considered it instead of the midsize Galant - it is that good. Ditto the Focus, Golf, Corolla, etc.
The whole industry keeps moving, and playing catch up is so much harder against a moving target.
Supreme, do you mind giving us a rundown of what additional equipment you feel is necessary to equip an Echo like a Spectra? I went to Carsdirect.com and added the equipment I felt made up the difference and came up with the numbers I posted.
HOWEVER, I then went back and compared the two base vehicles (with no additional equipment) and made careful note of the differences between the two. I then went back to the optioning part of Carsdirect and optioned an Echo to be as close of a match of the Spectra as I possibly could using this new information. I came up with a third number.
So, again, I ask, what options did you add to the Echo?
At the rate Korean cars are improving they will surpass American cars and catch up to Japanese in the near future.
I don't think anybody said anything about "YOUR" car . but your sure do blast anybody that says anything going against what you think of echo .
like lawman said "The other truth is that people tend to vehemently defend what they buy, considering a negative opinion about their personal choice of wheels as an insult to them personally."
thats why i said it just doens't matter.. people are very closed minded . they like what they like and even if someone makes a valid point they will trash it because they can't be wrong . we all buy the cars we like for whatever reason we like them . major tried to make the resale of the echo sound way better than the accent when his #'s showed they were only 6% different. and both sucked at about 50% . i claimed at 12 k you could get an echo and it was striped . i was mistaken , major made sure to point it out rather harshly i might add calling it a lie . but i was wrong and stated that . but the fact is the echo is a nice car if you want to get a high mpg car from toyota . but for what it cost and what you get i think there are better cars out there for the money ,if mpg isn't the most important part of the car .
That, and I like the Echo. My friend bought one of the first ones here, 4-doors, with power windows in front only, and powerlocks (aftermarket, I think). The central instruments are a bit weird to me, but I've never seen another vehicle that makes such excellent use of space.
I see cars like the new Corolla and Lancer on the low end, Camry and Altima (ugly interior, but oh sooooo fast) in the middle and just can't imagine Hyundai or Kia catching up anytime soon. The new Sonata is a nice car (rented one in Korea last summer), but it still doesn't meet the standards of the outgoing generation of Japanese midsize cars like my Galant or the old 2001 Camry. The current Accord is light-years beyond the Kia Optima and Hyundai Sonata, and a new one is due out in a few months that will make the old one look dated.
The Elantra is much better than any previous Elantra, but the 96-2000 Civic, and even the 93-97 Corolla are nicer, more solid cars, while the new Corolla has moved the class up another notch.
Even down another notch where the Accent and Echo live, the Korean entries, while much nicer than their predecessors, aren't up to the quality and engineering standards of the Echo.
What isn't mentioned here is that my comparisons are by size class, rather than price class. The Korean brands continue to compete by pricing their cars as though they were one bracket lower. The Sonata isn't as nice as the Camry, but is compelling agains the Corolla. The Elantra can't match the Corolla, but is compelling against the Echo, while the Accent undercuts the Echo by a few grand, where Toyota lakcs an entry.
Koreans give you more for your dollar in terms of quantity, but at a lower quality level. What never fails however, is that you tend to get what you pay for.
-Road and Track
http://www.roadandtrack.com/news/dai/PrintArticle.asp?ArticleID=43
"... Hyundai will lead the development and engineering... ".
So we have this German/American car company and this Japanese car company in a joint venture with a Korean company, and the Korean company is taking the lead in development and engineering?? Obviously the initial quality of these engines will be the worst in the industry. ;-)
And Zig, post #767 in the Hyundai is the best car company ....thread in News And Views sure didn't sound like an admission of being wrong. You basically said that you meant that for $12,000 you weren't getting as much for the money as an Elantra.
During this exchange, you also called the resale values of the Echo horrid and I pointed out that if the resale values on the Echo were horrid, the resale values of the Accent were even worse. You brought up the fact that we were talking about the Elantra and the Echo. Well, you know what? The resale values on the Elantra GLS will be 48% after two years and 50% on the Elantra GT after two years. This is less than the resale value on an Echo, either two door or four door.
The point is if you think the resale value on the Echo is horrid, you MUST agree that the resale value on the Accent AND the Elantras are horrid to.
Korean cars haven't ventured into more expensive markets, so it's hard to say if they can compete with higher end Japanese cars. Looking at the current Tiburon as a prime example, they are slowly raising the price, and quality, of their cars to bring it closer to Japanese competitors. They must do this gradually, however, because nobody is going to pay much for a Hyundai... yet. I'm not saying they have caught up to Japanese, but I am saying that they will... and much sooner then American cars would, if they ever do.
I've got 0.9 financing on my Intrepid right now, and at the time I bought it I didn't have enough equity in my home to finance it that way. Still, if you have the equity and don't mind mortgaging the house back up, it may be a good way to go.
We used to say the same thing about the Japanese with regards to the Germans. The first Acuras were nowhere near Mercedes levels, and as Acuras and Lexuses (Lexi?) have improved immensely with each generation, so too have the BMW and Mercedes. The end result is that parity is a long and slow process, which Lexus getting close to, but hasn't yet, after 13 years, reached. Oh, don't talk about how new Lexus is, as Lexus is just Toyota, and Toyota has been in the American market about as long as BMW.
The Koreans may someday catch up, but not in the life of my new car's payment book they won't.
""And Zig, post #767 in the Hyundai is the best car company ....thread in News And Views sure didn't sound like an admission of being wrong. You basically said that you meant that for $12,000 you weren't getting as much for the money as an Elantra.""
sure take post 767 and forget about the otherposts after where i do say it .
dude i will end it here because you are a person that can't just say "hey i was wrong and shouldn't have said this or that "
its not worth it because you have tunnel vision and nothing can change that ,
The rate is 4.50%, not 4.25%. Got excited, sorry.
But seriously, in what sense is Lexus so behind Mercedes. I know that Mercedes tends to be the Pioneer of luxury based gizmos and doodads, and Lexus is more of a copycat, but that has nothing to do with it. In my recent experience the quality and fit and finish as well as the refinement seem on par, though slightly different (kind of like BMW and Mercedes are on par but different)
Look at the late eighties, third generation Accord (the one with the pop up head lights). That's still a very enjoyable car, although much smaller than the present Elantra/Focus, etc. The next three generations were all pretty much interchangable IMHO. I'm sure the rigidity of the new car is better and its dimensions are larger incrementally in every direction, but it's certainly not ahead of the curve like the late eighties model was.
Civic-- new model is cruder and less reliable than last generation.
Corolla-- '03 is a step ahead of the badly decontented '98-'02 model, but not as far ahead of the curve as the 93-97's. Same with the Camry, plus the problem with sludging.
Compare this to the Koreans, who if they aren't there yet at least are actively progressing.
You seem to think that the higher end cars would have a higher resale value than low end cars and that is not always the case. The four door Echo has the same resale value percentage, after two years, as a [new] Lexus ES300. And the Echo beats many larger, more expensive, cars in holding its value.
And, with one exception, none of the Kia or Hyundai models of any price, have a higher resale value [as a percentage] after two or four years as a four door Echo. The one exception is the Hyundai Tiburon. After two years, it will be worth one percent more than a four door Echo. And with only two exceptions, the Tiburon and the Hyundai Sonata, none of the Kia or Hyundai models of any price, have a higher resale value [as a percentage] after two or four years as a two door Echo, either.
And Zig, in several later responses, you continued to accuse me of not getting your point and how you were simply comparing content. Those sure didn't sound like admissions of being wrong, either.
No, my friend, I think it is you with the tunnel vision.
dude get a grip and let it go . the post you are going on and on about was called " it just doesn't matter " and your going on and on just proves it .it doesn't matter what you say to some people .
some people just don't get it .
i never once claimed that any hyundai has good resale . i think i have made many a post saying that is the worse thing about hyundai .. so get off the resale will ya .your the one that said after 2 years the echo had a 54% resale and that was exceptable , and those are your #'s not mine , you also said the accent had a 48# resale value . well that is only 6% difference . and with the difference is price in the cars that is almost made up . and i said that 50% of the value of the car sucks , no matter if it was a echo or accent and it does . geezzzz
dude u like the echo thats fine . it is a good car but give us all a break and let it rest .
And 54% is the resale value, after two years, of the two door Echo. I have the four door which stripped is said to be worth 55% of MSRP, but my Echo comes nicely equipped so resale is probably higher.
And I guess focusing on Hyundais made you miss my statement that the Echo's resale values beat many larger, more expensive cars [meaning from makers other than Hyundai] which runs counter to your statement [paraphrasing] that if you play in this end of the pool, resale values are going to be bad.
less as I get reimbursed.My guess would be that anyone who puts that kind of mileage on a car is in a similar position.
I would imagine the person who puts 10,000 to 15,000 miles per year and trades every 2-4 years would be most concerned about resale value.This type of person is probably better off with a Honda or Toyota product.I usually trade at 120,000-140,000 miles.At this mileage brand is almost meaningless.Ive had good luck with Luminas and now an Impala.They are easy to sell and durable up to about 150,000 miles.Most of my driving is on the interstate so I prefer a larger car.
Would lease and therefor would also not care.
In a rather kludgey was I was just trying to make a point. Usually a guy that drives huge miles want's to make sure that their car will hold it's value even with high miles because he will trade is car off often. A person that is going to buy a car and just keep it hopefully until the car is paid off really doesn't care much. I myself don't care about resale on my P5 because I know darn well that I'm going to run this car into the ground. I just want to make sure it's reliable during that time.