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I had to go put my sun shield up on my car and so I checked my maintenance log again. As far as routine maintenance goes, I do not see anything that is out of line from any other car (from other makes) that I have had. Before my Toyota, I have owned or co-owned cars made by Pontiac, Dodge, and Ford.
If your friends are paying for "routine maintenance" beyond what the maker specifies, I blame the dealership(s) and not Toyota. Now if a problem has shown up during a maintenance visit, I do not think that is a maintenance issue and the cost of repair should not be considered when figuring the cost of routine maintenance.
Would you please talk to your friends and see what it is? If it is a problem that becomes apparent during routine maintenance, I would like to know about it so that I can watch out for it.
Then again, it might be something I don't have to worry about because at over 60,000 miles, your friends' cars are probably at least 4 years old and perhaps whatever the problem is has been fixed now.
You are right. I don't think there is anyone as passionate about his Sephia as Iluv. : )
I agree that a Toyota is probably not as good as a Lexus in terms of quality, but I think that quality and value are two different things. Quality does figure into the value equation, but the two are not synonymous.
I too am enjoying our dialogue. Heck, I even enjoying bantering with Iluv. : ) If I did not enjoy myself, I would not be posting.
It's familiar and new at the same time and puts me in mind of the Monza 2+2 from 1975.And is the closest size I could find to replace my 86 Olds Calais.I loved my clapped out 84 Citation, this is just a more advanced{though dated} design of a very similar car. There are so many factors that played into my choice, but the idea that it can be worked on by any mechanic in the country, parts are inexpensive and plentiful, repairs easily done and the car has a shape that will still look good 10 years from now ,long after it's paid for, THAT was all part of it too.
Next time, Korean? I like them too and I'm cheering them on to keep em coming.
Too bad Subaru left this end of the market. I'd consider them too, but why the would I want or need 4 wheel drive in Hell Ay? I love thier cars, too. Probably the most interesting of the Japanese makes, but the lower end is not where they play currently.
THX again for the great post.
Does anyone remember when Hondas and Toyotas were first being imported to the USA? I was too young to drive then, but I clearly remember my parents and neighbors saying how lousy the cars were, how they would never last, how the Japanese were good at copying but not innovating. Japanese cars were considered very unfavorable then. They were different and Americans weren't accustomed to them. That was well over 20 years ago. Admittedly, the first models imported into the USA did have some flaws, but Honda and Toyota took a cautious and deliberate approach here and they learned from their initial mistakes.
These days, Honda and Toyota cars are considered by many to be some of the finest vehicles made anywhere. And Americans are buying them in record numbers. No doubt, they are fine cars.
Now think back 15 years ago. Hyundais arrive on our shores. They are cheap. They sell by the hundreds of thousands and they....are awful cars. As a result Hyundai had several hundred thousand dissatisfied customers. Hyundai's record sales of a substandard product actually helped foster a very negative image of the company in the minds of a vast number Americans, probably more than origianlly bought Hondas in the '70s, and especially in light of the continuing improvement of the other Asian imports (Honda, Toyota) at the same time.
Now to the present. Hyundai has been importing cars to America for 15 years. Its products have been improved. In a effort to woo buyers, Hyundai offers a generous warranty (remember when VW did the same thing in 1994?). And Hyundai's efforts are paying off...Hyundai is again selling a record number of vehicles.
Only time will tell how Hyundai fares, but I suspect it will do fine. Hyundai has follwed the same path that Honda and Toyota took almost 30 years ago: introduce a low-cost alternative to existing products, take your initial lumps, improve your wares and keep on selling. With time, people's perceptions of your products will change as they become more accustomed to those products.
Please don't think I'm a pitchman for Hyundai. I'm really not. But I do appreciate the initial dollar value its vehicles represent. And I respect the company for trying so hard to make a second impression. I'm also happy that Hyundai did not choose to abandon the US market, espcially the "low end" market, as it could have easily done in 1993/1994.
I will close this lengthy post with a quote from Chung Ju-Yung, the former chairman of Hyundai Corp.:
"It is failures rather than successes that teach us invaluable lessons. . . . It is not necessary to remember one's success. That should be remembered by others instead. Rather, we should
remember our losses and failures. . . . Those who forget their failures will fail again and again."
well, this cost me my whole lunch hour...Happy Motoring!
Speaking of updating, Kia needs to do that with their website. They claim the Sephia has more power than the Corolla, Escort, Civic, and Saturn sedan. They're right about the Civic and Saturn, but the Escort has been out of production for a while now, and the Corolla has more power. However, they did have a beautiful picture of the 1.8L DOHC I4 engine!!! What a gorgeous Mazda design!! Apparently Mazda didn't let Kia use their Variable Intake Control System, since the Kia 1.8L puts out so much less torque and gets worse mileage. Oh well. I hear Kia will move the Sephia and Sportage from Mazda engines to Hyundai engines...
It was a hand me down from my sister. I am not sure which Monza it was, but it had a vinyl roof over the back part of the passenger compartment.
GM did not know how to make small engines so they dropped a 6 cylinder in which was way too much engine for that size of a car. That thing would flat out move.
My dad bought me a used '76 Sunbird (the Pontiac twin to the Monza) when I went away to college. My mother called me up one day and told me about it, but she got the name wrong. She told me that my father (Mr. Conservative) had bought me a Firebird. Was initially disappointed but the styling and power of the Sunbird won me over. Again, too much engine for the size of the car and again that car would flat out move. It felt like the engine was going to pull away from the mounts when I really stomped on it.
I guess those two cars and the fun I had with them are why I prefer small, low end cars.
And the Chevy Cavalier is probably the worst. Along with the Neon.
cjccetta:I don't think you're a Hyundai salesman, just someone who's fallen in love with his car...like everyone else on these boards!!!
I know what you mean, major, about smaller cars being more attractive to you.I learned how to drive on a 1966 Mercury Montclair 4 door sedan [my first love]. It took me TWO days to wax it once.Always huge cars around. They are just too big to be personal, smaller ones are more accessible somehow, more intimate to start with.
And intimacy.....isn't that what everyone wants in a relationship, even with the cold rolled???
The Sunbird was one of Pontiac's best designs asw far as I'm concerned. Same stuff as the Monza, but they managed to get a totally unique Pontiac character to it with very little change.
I think Kia and Hyundai are here to stay and hope GM will give Daewoo a chance to continue here in the states.Stylingwise, the Hyundais are among the best in this particular segment.And I'll admit it, if no one else will: it's STILL a primary reason to pick one make over another[though not as great as it once was].If I'm going to commit to paying for it for 3,4 or 5 years, I'd better be certain I still like looking at it mid way between the first and last payment! *>)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Dweezil...you're right, I have sort of fallen for my Hyundai. But it is my first new car so I think I'm entitled to a little puppy love! I really hope the Koreans can maintain a US presence. I think Kia has the right attitude but I feel bad for Daewoo. Some of their misfortunes can be traced to poor management. I think Deawoo's cars are lovely, though. Especially the Leganza.
I'll fire up another debate here. Let's pretend we're having a beauty pageant to determine "Miss Low-End Car". Who gets your vote for most attractive entrant? Personally, I prefer Miss Mazda Protege. Classy, sophisticated, more than meets the eye. Miss Congeniality award to Miss Daewoo Leganza. Voluptuous, curvy and exotic.
Happy Motoring.
CJA
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The Mazda,I just can't get past that idiotic ad campaign to think I wouldn't be embarrased to be seen in one, no matter HOW good looking it is.Sort of like the "Not Your Father's Oldsmobile" stupidity from an earlier era.That's a little hard, I think, but truth be told I haven't seen enough of them on the road yet to make a judgement.Are they simply NOT selling? Just a couple at the lot over on Roscoe, and a dark colored one at that.
Personal pick is my own Cavalier, which still looks good even as a 1995 model in 2001.
Runner's up:Sonata,Rio,Sentra[though it looks to me like a rip of an 84 Topaz/Tempo]Leganza, Focus 4 door[but NOT in urine sample gold metallic UGH!].
Lexuses ARE Toyotas. They just have more insulation, leather, wood and other amenities that make them luxury cars. Same manufacturer, same processes, same engineering, same warranty. And in Japan, until this year, same name (they didn't even use the Lexus name there because it wasn't necessary -- they know their cars).
As for the Koreans -- they are doing their dead level best to provide excellent value, and their quality and engineering improve every day. They have labor rates that the Japanese can't compete with, and I think that's a great thing for consumers here and elsewhere. Hyundai has made some really exciting show cars for over 15 years, and I'm waiting for them to actually produce one -- I think they'd just kill the Miata and MR2 in the marketplace if they could sell one for about $5k less than their Japanese competition. Might be tough, though, and maybe that's why they haven't tried (as yet). Actually, I think they were ready to try back in the early 90s, but then the Excel took such a dump they probably got scared off. Maybe things will change now that they're starting to get their reputation back.
Was going to stop by to check out the Mazda dealership this a.m., but wound up doing stuff around the house. Got up late and don't like looking at cars when there are sharks in the water so I usually go before they open. Besides I don't want to waste anyone's time.Zoom zoom.....ugh...now I'll NEVER get to sleep!!! Dave
What I am saying is that the build quality (and I am basing this on personal observation) of the most expensive Toyota is not as good as the most inexpensive Lexus.
Just because Lexuses are rebadged Toyotas does not make their quality the same as Toyotas that don't carry the badge. If they were considered the same, J.D. Powers would not list them separately when it came to surveys.
Quality is a lot more than just how they built the car. It goes into the overall design. The Elantra and Sephia both have good build quality and good fit-and-finish. However, their body structures are significantly weaker than cars such as the Protege and Echo. This is evident in how much their bodies flex over rough road surfaces. Another rather expensive part of development is vehicle dynamics. The Japanese vehicles, in general, handle and ride better than the Korean cars of the same class. The Koreans will figure this out over time, but the development is costly and the price gap between the more expensive Japanese and bargain Koreans will start to close.
You don't like the current Mazda Zoom Zoom campaign? Oh well. You can't appeal to everyone at once! Does that mean I have to take the Zoom Zoom sticker off my car? But, you have to admit the zoom, zoom song is quite catchy and it's putting Mazda out in the spotlight.
jstandefer -- I recently drove Protege, Corolla, Civic and Elantra during my shopping experience. We've got plenty of rough roads in Northern NJ and I can say that the Corolla fared worst (oldest design?)...otherwise, the Korean and Japanese offerings felt very similar in rigidity.
mpgman -- I've been asked the Saab question, too. Also Nissan and Lexus (?!?)
By the way, is it just me or does the Toyota Echo flat out haul [non-permissible content removed]??? I've been blown away at highway speeds by these little buggies. And I mean BLOWN AWAY. Speeds probably exceeded 95 mph. Major, any thoughts? That power-to-weight ratio must be great. I'd love to get one as a second car but my wife thinks they're ugly. I prefer the term "inner beauty"...
As to rigidity, consider that the Elantra was found by CR to have the best 5 mph bumpers. I think you have to ride in the GT.....it's different from the sedan that other posters may be comparing it to.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It takes a lot of experience and time and money to develop a particularly rigid unibody while keeping weight to a minimum. The Korean manufacturers will get there, but probably in the next redesign and certainly not without price increases. Actually, Kia and Hyundai now have the advantage of being under one corporate umbrella. To save costs, vehicles like the Sephia and Elantra, the Optima and the XG300, and the Santa Fe and the Sportage can use the same platforms. Most manufacturers have been sharing platforms for decades to cut costs. Examples include the Mitsubishi Galant and Dodge Stratus/Chrysler Cirrus, the VW New Beetle and the Audi TT, and the Mazda 626 and the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute/Mazda MPV.
Now on to the Mitsubishi Mirage. I guess nobody owns one so that is why it is not being brought up. It is considered a low end car though. I looked at it, but it did not push enough of my buttons.
We also looked at the Hyundai Elantra. I came away more impressed with the Elantra than he did. A friend of mine used to have a late 80's Excel, and let me tell you, the Elantra is a much improved vehicle. Pricing was amazing too. It still lacks some refinement that other competitors possess, but at that price it's hard to beat.
So what did he end up with? A 2001 Mazda Protege LX 2.0. Sure, it was the most expensive car we looked at (well, except the 2001 Civic, which is the definition of price-gouging, and also shows that Honda is living on reputation now), but Mazda's 0.0% financing for 48 months made the payments cheaper than any other car at 60 months, plus it was the car he liked the best. He's been lusting after a 626 for four years, but the V6 models are a bit out of his price range.
Anyways, his Mirage was a good car up until the accident. However, the Mirage has a tendency to just fade into the background. It is a competent car and I would recommend it to anyone looking for good transportation, but it doesn't stand out in any category. The new Mitsubishi Lancer should fare a lot better, but it has fallen behind on power and handling.
PS HAS ANYONE SEEN "THE FAST AND THE FURIOUS" OR HAVE ANY PLANS TOO?
The Subaru Impreza has been previously ruled out. We have determined that a "low-end" car must have a starting MSRP of $15,000 or less and must be a subcompact or compact vehicle. The Impreza is a compact, but it's too expensive. We must keep a price cap on these vehicles, or we will be comparing cars like the Mercedes Benz C-Class or BMW 3-Series, since those vehicles are "low-end" for those manufacturers.
I plan on seeing "The Fast and The Furious" probably Friday. Have you seen it? I don't know about the plot, but I'll take any chance I can get to see a flame-spitting, tire-shredding RX-7 in action any day!!
You can get an armrest for the Echo through J.C. Whitney. If you look back through the Echo thread itself, you will find posts that talks about which armrest to order. Several Echo owners have installed it. I came from a '93 Ford Escort which does not have an armrest either so I don't miss it.
I can see considering the Esteem a low end car and it is, but not the Impreza. I guess it would be considered the low end offering from Subaru, but it is hard for me to think of any Subaru as low end.
Time to do dishes.
You referenced kia sephia tail lites & chided the upper clear plastic 1/4. The clear plastic houses the turn signal which is a yellow bulb. The back-up lite is a clear circle of plastic within the 3/4red frame in lower inner corner.
Now if you examine the toyota corolla, i believe,
you will find the same arrangement with the exception that the turn signal plastic is yellow & ill guess the bulb is white.
IMHO the sephia (my 2000) tail lite looks crisp, distinguishable from the pack of lookalikes, and maybe even a bit erotic. But isnt that what the designers attempt to do? And as for the sephia looking bigger than it is, well its exactly 174" in length which is bigger than most low enders & and an adult can actually sit comfortably in the rear, which you cant do in most low enders.
Re "What I am saying is that the build quality (and I am basing this on personal observation) of the most expensive Toyota is not as good as the most inexpensive Lexus." I assure you -- the build quality is the same; the materials and some of the engineering are not. Remember, the ES300 and RX00 are built off the Camry platform; the IS300 is a Toyota Altezza in its home market; and the LX470 is a Land Cruiser with some extra spiffs. Well worth the price difference in every case -- but not in terms of manufacturing or build quality.
I could get to like the tail; but I'll worry if YOU get to liking the tail too much....well...you know what kind of weird laws out there, just be careful!!! :-}
You stated that the Elantra was less refined. If you do not mind, how so? I just want to be aware of it when I test drive these vehicles.
Thanx
Sort of like the obscenity hearings in the 80's. One Senator was quoted as saying: I can't describe it [what is obscene], but I know it when I see it.YOU decide whether you like the feel of one vehicle over another, how it drives, how quiet it is, how the buttons and controls work and sound.YOUR perceptions are the most important, not someone's else's definition of what is "refined".
I have found the Protege's engine to be more refined, particularly when you rev it up during hard acceleration. The Protege's engine "sings", while it seems the Elantra's engine "groans". Again, this is personal preference and all depends on your driving habits. Mazda drivers are typically a bit more aggressive and drive their cars hard, and the cars have been tuned for this. Even the Tribute SUV pretends it's just a really big Miata!
The interior of both cars have nice touches. I like the way Mazda has provided cloth on the doors that cover all the way up to the window, giving you arm's a nice surface to rest on. I like the Elantra's padded center armrest and dual level storage. I prefer the Protege's flat door armrests, where the window and mirror controls are horizontal, since the wrist does not naturally bend upwards when resting. Also, I prefer the Protege's overall interior styling, with it's chrome accents and cleaner layout.
It's a hard decision between the two cars and all depends on your personal preference. Car and Driver said "This Mazda tops the charts for driving fun. Its chassis muscles are athletic, its engine is sweet and strong, its controls are precise and direct, and the look is classy inside and out. This is a car that does everything well. And it has spirit. BMW verve for less than half the price. What's not to like?" I came out of an RX-7 and am perfectly happy with the Protege's performance. However, if you prefer a softer ride over sharp handling, the Elantra may be your way to go. Just drive both of them and see which car you like best. Good luck!!
The depreciation issue is kind of evened out when one considers that you are paying less for the vehicle in the first place. The quality difference between the Japanese makes and Korean makes are now negligible. The fit and finish of the Elantra GT is impeccable. When closing the door you are greeted with an authoritative thunk. Very solid. I would be surprised if used Hyundai's (2000 models and up) don't sell.
People are catching on quick and unfortunately for bargain hunters such as myself, Hyundai and the other Korean makes are likely to raise their prices.
I certainly don't deny that a Honda Civic will hold its value more than a Hyundai Elantra. Actually I thought that the Elantra would be worth less!
I would be surprised if that figure holds true for the 2001 Elantra- a new and more refined model. I'm not saying it will depreciate less than the Civic, only that it will do better than the 2000 Elantra.
Anyway, Korean vehicles give you more standard features for less money with 90% (or more) refinement. If you plan on keeping your vehicle for more than 5 years- resale value really does not matter much.
There is a thread in the Smart Shopper Section of town hall about real world trade in values.
The trade in values I have seen for Korean cars are not a pretty sight.
I saw what I think was a 2001 or 2002 Daewoo Lanos 4-door sedan on the road today. It looks like it got a rear-end treatment from the guy who designed the Chevy Monte Carlo. But it was certainly eye-catching. Anyone else see any new Daewoos or have the funk-o-riffic interior smells of my new Hyundai finally affected my brain?
CJA
BOTTOMING OUT. i find it hard to accept your low end definition of $15,000. heck get a one year old or two year old upper tier car for that. when i talk about low end i mean $8600 w/t&t for a new then current model Kia Sephia 2000. In 1972 i purchased a Datsun 1200 coup @ $2400. It lasted 79000 miles over four years and i traded it for a 1976 yellow Mazda coup which had sat on the lot for a year & i stole it from the dealer who took the remains of my Datsun. And i mean everything was shot/ radio, wipers, wrecked & rebuilt, & more that i cant remember. we ran the Mazda for four more years until we couldnt fit all the kids in it & had to move up. The art of value is fine tuning the purchase and disposal of the vehicle; and as i learned with the Mazda, i got a hell of a deal then flubbed it up at the bank when i coulda gone to a credit union and saved another bundle on financing. The art of the deal remains, buy low, trade before it costs you money and youre on the road to success. remember someone is always waiting to buy the other guys lemon, sad but true.