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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    From today's Star Tribune, Newspaper of the Twin Cities - names of a few of the cars at a Tokyo car show in 1996:

    Mitsubishi Mini Active Urban Sandal

    Subaru Gravel Express

    Daihatsu Rugger Field Sports Resin Top

    Nissan Prairie Joy

    Suzuki Every Joy Pop Turbo

    Mitsubishi Delica Space Gear Cruising Active

    Isuzu Mysterious Utility Wizard

    Daihatsu Town Cube

    Nissan Big Thumb Harmonized Truck

    Isuzu Giga 20 Light Dump

    Other interesting names of real cars:

    Mazda Bongo Friendee

    Mazda Scrum

    Mitsubishi Minica Lettuce

    To be fair, America brought us the Studebaker Dictator--in 1936 no less.

    (Relevance, you ask? At least some of the cars listed above, like the Daihatsus, have to be low-end cars.)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    rugby crazy town or country. Town or country? Hey, didn't Chrysler make a Town and Country full-size wagon about 30-35 years ago? What's in a name!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    In the late sixties I had a friend with an old Datsun Bluebird. The owner's manual said the dash "has a green light which will give you great joy".
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    "...will fill your day with sorrow." Or something like that.

    On another note... anyone notice that there are probably more new or redone cars in the low-end class than in any other for '03?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    that has seen better days? A sudden return to fuel economy *and* the continued surge of popularity of Hyundai and Kia vehicles? I posted a link several months ago of the new Nissan March that American Nissan dealers have been pressing the home company to hurry up and bring over here ASAP. It has a very small engine, is a very small car and gets very good fuel economy. I wanna see that one shake out! Seems too dangerous for our fierce highways over here, eh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The aftermath of September 11 may have something to do with the popularity of low-end cars. I think a lot of the changes to low-end cars this year are directly attributable to the rising popularity of Hyundai and Kia models. The other automakers need to offer something competitive. Witness all the new and changed models for '03, many of which were on the drawing boards years before September 11 of course:

    Chevy Cavalier - major update
    Ford Focus - tweaks
    Honda Civic - updated again!
    Hyundai Accent - major update
    Hyundai Elantra GT Sedan - new model
    Kia Rio - major update
    Pontiac Sunfire - major update
    Saturn Ion - new model
    Toyota Corolla - redesign
    Toyota ECHO - major update

    It's nice to see GM putting some investment into its low-end cars, with a long-overdue replacement for the Saturn S series and a major tweak to the Cavalfire.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    (Sorry about two posts in a row, but I thought I'd share the results of my test drive of an Aerio S 5-speed today.)

    Test car: 2002 Suzuki Aerio S (sedan) 5-speed
    Options: floor mats
    Color: Black/black
    Mileage: 80

    Pros: Interior space, truck space, comfortable driving position, good power, easy-to-read speedometer, comfortable ride, good handling

    Cons: Feature content, hard-to-read tach, rattles and squeaks

    Summary: Good choice for anyone looking for a comfortable, roomy small car. Competitive value-wise with Corolla, Civic, Protege, and Sentra, but not with Elantra.

    The first thing I noticed about the Aerio is its size. It looks big. And it is big inside, and in the trunk. It's like an ECHO on steriods. Anyone who likes a high seating position and needs maximum interior room in a small sedan should like the Aerio. The seats are easy to get into and out of. There's lots of room in the back seat for at least two good-sized adults (I'm 5' 10" and fit fine), with good toe space. I would have liked a bit more thigh support in the back, but that's a nit. The driver's seat and seating position was very good, with the only quibble being that again I wished for more thigh support (the GS model has a height adjuster). But everything else felt just right, unlike the '03 Corolla, in which I couldn't find a comfortable driving position. The digital speedometer makes it very easy to see exactly how fast you are going. I had more trouble with the other readouts, especially the tachometer; it was hard to tell at a glance what the RPMs were to within 200-300. The switchgear and HVAC controls had a quality feel. The center air vents were positioned about mid-way on the console, a perfect position for effective cooling. The shifter was smooth enough, but did not feel as precise as shifters in the Civic, Corolla, and Elantra. There's a big glovebox but no center console, or center armrest. I didn't like the mostly black interior, as it seemed too austere, but I'm not a fan of black interiors. (This black car was the only 5-speed on the lot.) The S model has power mirrors and windows standard, but manual locks--a strange omission on a 4-door car that has the other basic power accessories.

    Starting out, the car lurched a bit, but probably only because I had to get used to the clutch. Noise at idle and on the road was good for a low-end car, about the same as the Elantra and a bit noisier than the Corolla. There was faint wind noise starting at around 40 mph (10 mph winds) around the A pillars. That is not surprising, as this is a tall car with big A pillars. There was an annoying rattle from the driver's B pillar and another rattle from the passenger side when going over bumps. There was also a buzz from the passenger side when the radio was turned up past mid-way.

    The car had good pep from its 141 hp 2.0 L engine (145 in '03 models), but it seemed a bit less peppy than the 135-hp Elantra or even the 130-hp Corolla. However, I didn't push it to the limits as it was a demo car. The ride was quiet (except for the rattles) and compliant, at least as comfortable as Elantra and Corolla. The body structure seemed solid. I didn't get a chance to take the handling to the limits either, but in the few sharp turns I made on city streets it held the road well, with minimal body lean, and no tire squeal from the 14" tires. The stereo was the base Clarion 6-speaker AM/FM/CD. The unit had some nice features, like a midrange tone control and changer controls, but did not sound any better to me than the 4-speaker base stereo on the Elantra. I didn't test the CD.

    Fit and finish of the car looked fine. The quality of the materials in the interior was good, if you like black plastic and cloth.

    I was not impressed with the sales rep. About the only thing he knew about the Aerio was that the 7-year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty is transferable to other owners. He didn't know if the GS has a seat height adjuster (it does), or if the S or GS have a center arm rest (they don't), and he didn't know his competition (e.g., he stated that none of the Hyundai/Kia warranty was transferable, and he didn't know what an Elantra GT was).

    Overall, I think the Aerio S is a good alternative for people who might be looking at a Corolla CE (or even an ECHO), Civic DX/LX, Protege DX/LX, or Sentra GXE and want a low-end Japanese car with lots of room. But those looking for maximum value would do better with the Elantra GLS, priced $1000 less than the Aerio but with more equipment (such as 15" wheels, power locks, seat height adjuster, center console, overhead console, and side air bags). To get more equipment on the Aerio, you can move up to the GS, which for $1500 more has 15" alloys, power locks, seat height adjuster, and a spoiler among other goodies. But for $200 less, you could get an Elantra GT sedan with all of that plus moonroof, 4-wheel discs, leather interior, and side air bags. Plus the Elantra has two more years of bumper-to-bumper warranty and three more years of powertrain warranty.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    the answer to some of your questions nor more about HyunKia and their warranty, etc. He's a salesman but *not a car enthusiast*! There is a large difference and it's noticed whenever I go take a Hyundai or a Kia out for a test drive. I'll say this much, when I was test driving the '03 Tiburon the salesman knew a decent amount of info.on this re-designed offering from Hyundai. Those of us on the Internet who spend a lot of time here researching and chatting know *tons* more than most salesmen IMHO. They're not all enthusiasts or they're semi-enthusiasts at best. If they're really quiet at the comments you make about other cars or even other cars that they're selling on the lot there you'll know they're not wanting to head that direction(they don't know what to say)and they'll clam up! One thing that's really useful is the fees that they are and are not allowed to charge consumers. We can get info. on pert-near anything automotive ahead of time on the web.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Let me put it this way: if it were my job to sell a particular line of cars (and a relatively short line at that, with Suzuki), I'd make darn sure I knew everything about those cars and their competitors. I'd take advantage of all the information available from my company and from public sources like the Internet. I'd test drive competitive cars so I'd know firsthand their strengths and weaknesses. I'd make sure that before I make a statement to a prospective customer about my cars or the competition, that I knew what I was talking about.

    This particular sales rep brought up the warranty thing, then pointed to the Kia dealership across the street (which is owned by the same company as the Suzuki dealership) and started making inaccurate statements about the Kia/Hyundai warranty and disparaging remarks about the quality of their cars vs. Suzuki. Then when I mentioned the Elantra GT, he didn't know what it was. And this is a car that is a direct competitor for the Aerio 5-door. This was no youngster, the man was at least 40, so you can't blame it on youthful inexperience. The man obviously lacked even basic sales skills. He didn't qualify me when I walked in and asked for a test drive (he made no attempt to find out what kind of car I needed/wanted so he could decide if I was a solid prospect and could recommend the right model to me), he did not know his product or his competitors, and he didn't know how to handle objections. How he got a job selling new cars at this dealership is beyond me. Or maybe the fault is with the dealership for not training him.
  • lawman1967lawman1967 Member Posts: 314
    I don't think its either 9/11 or any real or perceived popularity of Hyundai/Kia, but rather that the cars being updated were simply extremely long in the tooth (Cavalier, Saturn S) or simply at the end of their NORMAL 4 or 5 year life cycles (Corolla, Civic, Accent, etc).

    Nothing going on other than $$$$. The pitiful Cavalier (1982 platform) is no longer even getting rental fleet sales, so an update was essential, and the Saturn S at a decade newer (1991) is almost as long in the tooth.

    The old Focus, Corolla and Civic were totally competitive, however those companies are quite religious in their upodate cycles.

    The Accent and Rio had been around a while too, the current versions really just "face lifts" on mid 1990's models (the Rio is the same pplatform as the Kia Avella, aka Ford Aspire of 1994).
  • shriqueshrique Member Posts: 338
    to be honest I think it's just a continuation of the whole "Fast and the Furious" craze. People just aren't tolerating a poor handling, rattling small sedans like they were in the past. Obviously these cars are still available on the low low end but Cars like the Civic and Protege Impreza WRX etc are getting more power and tight suspensions. I think people are also looking at the cars in a different light. You don't have to sacrifice fun just to have a small sedan or HB. Some of them may not have huge HP but but they are fun to drive.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good points, but your dates are a little off...

    * The current Cavalier/Sunfire platform debuted in the fall of '94 as a '95 model, and was a full redesign of the original '82 platform. The update for '03 is the first significant one since the '95 model.

    * The original Saturn S platform debuted in 1990.

    * There was no "old Focus"--there's only been one Focus platform. The tweaks for '03 are minor.

    * The current Accent platform debuted in the fall of '99 as a 2000 model, and was a complete redesign of the '95-'99 Accent. The changes for '03 are a facelift and more power standard.

    * The Rio may share some components with the Aspire, but the body and interior were all-new just a couple of years ago. For '03 the Rio gets styling tweaks and a more powerful engine (I think the same engine as the Accent).

    When was the last time you saw Honda make significant updates to a new design for the next two years following the new design, as they have done with the Civic? I think that shows increased competitiveness in the low-end car space (or maybe just that the redesigned '01 Civic was lacking). Another sign of increased competitiveness: I drove a 2002 Sentra GXE today, and it's already way outclassed IMO by competitors like Corolla, Civic, Elantra, Lancer, Protege, Focus, and Aerio. And it still has two more years to go on the current platform! Note also that Nissan hasn't made any significant changes to the low-end Sentras since the redesign three years ago. They just aren't keeping up.
  • lawman1967lawman1967 Member Posts: 314
    I beg to differ. GM CALLED the Sunfire/Cavalier a totally new platform, but it was the same J-platform with significant updating. This has been done many times before by many car companies, as was the Accent and Rio you also claim as completely new platforms. I can assure you, they are not. I lived in Korea when those cars came out, and know people at Hyundai. Low-end cars tend to get completely new platforms rather seldonme, making due with very comprehensive overhauls of existing platforms. Even the current Buick Century is essentially the same car as the Chevrolet Celebrity of the mid 80s. THe new one is vastly superior in every way (a platform GM has invested real money in), but it is the same platform, which even in the 80s was one of their batter ones.

    The Cavalier was a dreadful car, and while MUCH improved for 95, remained a dreadful car. While the Accent was stretched, widened and up-powered, it was a great little car to begin with, and has remained a great, not quite as little car in its freshenings. The Elantra, in contrast, is a completely new platform.
  • jimbeaumijimbeaumi Member Posts: 620
    I am in no way defending GM, but the current Buick Century is NOT essentially the same car as a Celebrity. The Celebrity, however was an indirect descendent of the X-car Citation. I know people who worked on these platforms at GM, and there was one new design between the lamentable Celebrity and the lamentable Century.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    Good review of the Aerio. I think you wrote an informative and fair comparison. I have noticed the same passenger side door buzz at moderate speaker volume with +2 bass on my 03 SX. I need to find a way to fix it because it ruins the sound of certain songs (usually the techno type). Otherwise, I have had no other problems with rattles.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    >>> GM CALLED the Sunfire/Cavalier a totally new platform, but it was the same J-platform with significant updating. <<<

    Whatever. I just know that the '95 Cavafire had an all-new body, all-new interior, and the chassis had at minimum SIGNIFICANT updates based on its on-road performance--there's no comparison between the ride and handling of the '94 and '95 models. If you don't consider that a new platform, that's fine with me. I do agree that the '95 Cavafire remained a dreadful car--not bad looking though, in 2-door trim.

    Now then--what compensation should we demand from GM for lying to us all these years about the "all-new" platform they say they have been selling since late '94? How many millions of cars would be involved? This has got to be worth a <i>lot more than the misstated horsepower ratings for Hyundais. ;-)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In the November Car and Driver, the Protege LX outscored the Elantra GLS by one point overall in a comparo of low-end sedans. They topped the Corolla, Civic, Lancer, Aerio, and several others in the under-$16,000 class (very close to the $15k threshhold for this board). It leaves one to wonder what would the results have been if they had tested the 2003 Elantra GT sedan, with better handling (the Pro won mainly based on its handling) and more equipment, and still a price well under $16k.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    You can get a Protege ES for less than $16K that has more equipment than the LX and has better handling.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Since I responded to your similar post in other boards, I'll do it here too. You can get an Elantra GT for around $12,500 that has better handling than the GLS (whether it's better than the Pro ES is a subjective thing) and lots more equipment than the Pro ES. So what is your point?
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "It leaves one to wonder what would the results have been if they had tested the 2003 Elantra GT sedan, with better handling (the Pro won mainly based on its handling) and more equipment, and still a price well under $16k."

    My point was that you can get an ES Protege for less than $16K also. What equipment are you talking about? I don't want leather, ABS, or traction control.
  • jimbeaumijimbeaumi Member Posts: 620
    It appears that backy was following C/D's criteria, and refers to MSRP when he suggests the GT's inclusion in the November test. It will still list for under $16K (unless COMPLETELY loaded), whereas the Protege ES will not.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, if you don't want leather, buy an Elantra GLS and save a couple of thousand bucks. ;-)

    Besides the leather interior, the GT sedan has side airbags, anti-theft alarm, adjustable lumbar support, heated mirrors, and 6 speakers in its stereo, all of which the Pro ES does not have as standard equipment according to Edmunds.com. All for over $2000 less MSRP.

    And James is correct, I was trying to stick to the rules of C/D's comparo on the pricing. In that test, the Protege LX was the most expensive car tested, at about $16,900. The Elantra stickered at $14,400. So that extra point above the Elantra costs $2500.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Were these automatics? Sheesh, that's a lot for a Protege LX. I bought my 5sp ES for $15,300 and got 0% financing for 48 months. Sounds like a better deal than the LX for $16,900. I think the new ES's have 6 speaker stereos BTW.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, you got a discount. I will repeat this point one more time: the prices in the C/D comparo were MSRP. That's why the 5-speed LX was $16,900. That's why the Elantra was a whopping $14,400 in the comparo. The market price for the Elantra would be closer to $12,500, after rebate and discount, plus or minus a few hundred.

    Edmunds.com still shows the ES with a 4-speaker stereo--maybe one of you Pro owners could bring this error to their attention.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Whoa! I know how the reviews work. I know they use MSRP. I know the Elantra is cheaper than the Protege no matter how you look at it. I guess I just didn't even realize that LX Proteges stickered that high. It must have had some options because a 5sp ES stickers for cheaper than that.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You may have noticed that Edmunds.com is planning to release their "Best Cars for 2003" awards in the next month. The low-end category this year is up from $13,000 to $15,000--coincidentally the same limit as for this board. Their price limit is for the base model of a car line, no options, MSRP without destination charge. They have three low-end car categories: sedan, coupe, and wagon.

    So what say we have our own little "Best Low End Cars for 2003" nominations? We can nominate our own "winners", and then compare them to what Edmunds will eventually say. But I recommend we add another category: hatchback. There's actually more hatchbacks in this category than coupes or wagons.

    For example:

    Best Low-End Coupe: Honda Civic
    The best of a nondescript bunch. I don't know enough about the Saturn Ion 4-door coupe to put it over the Civic.

    Best Low-End Sedan: Toyota Corolla
    The most refined car under $15,000, even if I'll never buy one because the driving position is best suited for shorter people. If you don't fit, go for the Elantra or Protege, depending on your driving style.

    Best Low-End Hatchback: Elantra GT
    A great value, but also a fine car in its own right.

    Best Low-End Wagon: Suzuki Aerio SX
    Edmunds.com calls it a wagon--OK, so will I. A close call over the Matrix, but the Aerio wins out because of a better driver's position, more power, and better warranty.
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    10th
    Kia Spectra
    Verdict: Why buy used when you can get brand new 80's sophistication?

    9th
    Suzuki Aero
    Verdict: Part-time charmer, full-time nonconformist.

    8th
    Nissan Sentra
    Verdict: Just the right couch for potatoes needing transist.

    7th
    Dodge Neon
    Verdict: No longer cute, no longer crude, Neon settles for the committee approach.

    6th (tie)
    Mitsubishi Lancer
    Verdict: Woderfully flingable machinery packed in an oddly shaped box.

    6th (tie)
    Honda Civic
    Verdict: Something new from Honda...a loser.

    4th
    Ford Focus
    Verdict: Lose the front seats, and we'd smile on this car.

    3rd
    Toyota Corolla
    Verdict: Short-legged drivers will love this car, others will respect it.

    2nd
    Hyundai Elantra
    Verdict: If you can find a better portfolio of feels and features at this price, buy it.

    1st
    Mazda Protegé
    Verdict: A four-door Miata
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I didn't know the Protegé was a convertible! A person can learn all sorts of things from car magazines. ;-)
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    Backy, CAR and DRIVER rates the 2003 Hyundai Elantra and the 2003 Mazda Protegé top box. I never ever would have.....? Ahh nevermind. :-D

    -Larry
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    any mag would rate a four-year-old Mazda and a Korean car ahead of the all-new Corolla? Could this be the first sign of the Apocalypse?

    Re "portfolio of feels and features", I think these car mag editors must get some kind of "creative writing" bonus. Maybe they could spend less time coming up with flowery language and more time paying attention to the cars they are reviewing, e.g. failing to notice that the engine on the Corolla has changed since 2002 and is no longer 125 hp.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Edmunds.com's Top Picks are out, and I see they agreed with me on 2 out of 3 categories, the only difference being I picked the Corolla for the best under-$15,000 sedan and they picked the Elantra. I'm not unhappy about that, since I own an Elantra and love it, but IMO the Corolla is just a bit better overall, if you fit in the driver's seat. I'm still surprised they totally ignored the hatchback category in their Top Picks.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Instead of speculating what might be the best 2003 low end car out there, let's talk about facts for a second. The fact is that the best mileage car with a gasoline engine is the Echo (with a manual transmission). This according to the government. There are other vehicles that have achieved higher ratings, but those are all either diesels or hybrids.

    Thus the choice is clear, if you want the best mileage in a gasoline powered vehicle, buy the Echo.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    So what? Does that make the Echo the best 2003 low end car? IMO, nobody in their right mind would walk into a Toyota dealership and pick the Echo over the new Corolla. There is almost no difference in gas mileage between the two cars. Hmmm...minimal (and I mean MINIMAL) fuel savings, or a better car in every way? The choice is clear.....
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    Buy the ECHO! Just kidding, both cars are good though, if you like the interior of the ECHO.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    >>> Thus the choice is clear, if you want the best mileage in a gasoline powered vehicle, buy the Echo. <<<

    Last time I checked, both the Prius and Civic Hybrid have a fuel filler pipe that accepts gasoline. Does that make them "gasoline powered"? Does that mean they are better cars than the ECHO, because they get better gas mileage?

    I have to agree with newcar31, saying a car is the "best" because it is tops (?) in one category seems like a narrow viewpoint. I could just as easily say that the Aerio has the most horsepower of any low-end car, so that makes it the best low-end car. Or the Protege has the best handling, so of course it is the best low-end car. The Civic has the best shifter, so it's the best car too. And the Spectra has the best... er, ah, hmmm.... warranty, yes, <i>warranty, that's it, so that makes it the best low-end car. No, wait, the Accent, Elantra, and Rio have the same warranty, so they are all the best low-end cars!

    Glad to see you back posting again, Major!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    with an unbeatable warranty. This thread just needed a little shot of common sense, that's all. Hey majorthom, where ya been? Been playing a new video game or new-world order Monopoly, eh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    You can "win" a catagory like that. What if I was to say: "The Protege and Elantra are the best looking low end cars" How do like that?
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    You CAN'T win a catagory like that.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    Car and Driver beat the Corolla, because it has the sportiest handling of the bunch, something there greatly prefer. The Corolla was the hot-rod of the bunch, but its ride is more tuned for comfort and handling.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Did you mean to say that Car and Driver preferred the Protege because it had the sportiest handling of the bunch?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    If you go back and read my original post, you will see that I acknowledge (though not by name) that the Prius and the Civic get better gas mileage, but the fact is those are HYBRIDS.

    My original post stands.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    What was the point of your original post?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Where in my post did I say that having the best gas mileage made the 2003 Echo the best of the bunch? I didn't. In fact, I said that we should leave the speculation behind and deal with facts.

    I also wonder about something. How many of us have actually driven or at least ridden in ALL of the 2003 low end cars. I know I haven't therefore I don't feel I can declare the 2003 Echo or any 2003 the best of the bunch. If you haven't driven or ridden in EVERY 2003 low end car out there, what makes you feel qualified to declare a winner?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    The post I just posted deals with what my point is.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Don't let my presence fool you. It does not mean I am back on any long term basis. The factors keeping me from posting as much as I have in the past still exists.

    The principal ones are lack of time and outdated computer equipment.

    Got to get ready for work so it is bye for now.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    I just don't understand what your original post adds to this discussion. Facts are good, but if that's all that matters, then this discussion is useless. People can look that stuff up themselves. It would be like me coming in here and saying that the Protege has 130 hp. It's true that it does have 130 hp, but so what? The Echo may get good gas mileage, but there are cars out there that get almost the same mileage and are way better. Corolla anyone?
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    Quote from their article
    "Faithful readers know exactly what to expect from the coolly analytical professionals who compose this unbiased journal. Here we're rating a group of frugal four-doors, right? Obviously, then, the econocar of choice will be selected for its stand-out achievement in (select one):

    a. Gas mileage?
    b. Trade-in value?
    c. Passenger comfort?
    d. 0-to-60 time?

    The correct answer is none of the above. We may say that we have your transportation interests in mind, but when it's time to vote, the winner is always the one that's most fun for us to drive....."

    When magazines test cars, whether it's C&D, MT, R&T, CR, etc....unless you can somehow eliminate the "human" factor, it's always going to be subjective to some degree. C&D prefers cars with a sportier touch. Only on rare occasions the more comfy tuned car win (such as the Acura 3.0CL vs. Toyota Solara SLE test)
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Of course the magazine comparos are going to be subjective. What would be the point if they weren't? If you want complete objectivity, compare spec sheets and don't read magazine articles.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I read your original post, and you said, quite clearly I thought,

    Thus the choice is clear, if you want the best mileage in a gasoline powered vehicle, buy the Echo.

    Also, I was really hoping for a classic "Majorthomecho post chain", which we don't see much any more. :-)

    I thought maybe you were writing on the current thread of "best low-end 2003 car." Of course, what you were really were doing was starting a new thread on "best gas mileage of a low-end car." I for one appreciate your taking time out of your busy schedule to remind us of the ECHO's superiority in that area. I was wondering, with all that money you save on gas with the ECHO, maybe you could upgrade your computer. They're getting pretty cheap these days.

    BTW, I've driven all the low-end cars with the exception of the Spectra. (But then, I've never tried shooting myself in the head, either.) I assume from your comment/challenge, Major, that you have driven them all, including the Elantra GLS and GT? I've never seen your comments on those test drives. What did you think of them?
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