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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    save them: the Kia America CEO cringes when people say Kia is *a division of Hyundai*. Kia is not a division of Hyundai. Kia is Kia. Hyundai is Hyundai. Hyundai OWNS 51% of Kia Motors and stepped up to the plate when Kia was flirting with bankruptcy. They operate independently from each other but, and it's a significant but, they see the need for cost sharing like all car companies these days so they platform and bin part share-that's a given. The 2003 Kia Rio's front end looks like it's morphing back to the Hyundai Accent of last year in a way.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Yeah, I work in the US Trust building. I used to work in Lasalle Plaza.

    "The new platform for Focus and Protege will come from Europe, which begs the question: with Japanese powertrains, European design, and American components being built in large part in Mexico (at least for Focus), what on earth is the nationality of the next Focus and protege?"

    The next Protege is still supposed to be built in Japan which would mean that they are most likely still going to be using Japanese suppliers. European design is nothing new to the Protege. The current generation Protege was designed in Germany, Japan, and California. You can see the German influence in the exterior design and the handling behavior.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    >>> ...we are driving world cars." <<<

    I think that sums it up nicely. With all the cross-breeding in the auto industry, who knows what the origin of a car is nowdays. For some cars, like the Aerio, Elantra, and Rio, it's still pretty clear what their heritage is, but it's getting murky for others e.g. the Focus and Protege.
  • browntroutbrowntrout Member Posts: 24
    I think with the 33% that Ford owns of Mazda, they are the biggest shareholder. I'm not the biggest investment guru here but shareholders do get a say in how the company is run (you get little cards in the mail to vote for certain things). I'm not sure how it is done in Japan, but in North America that's how it's done. Anyways, if you're like me (i.e. not a big institutional investor), your 500 or 600 shares basically don't mean jack. Most people don't bother to vote so that 33% that Ford owns is probably much closer to 50 or 60 when it comes down to voting.

    Anyways, Mazda is it's own entity enough to differentiate it from Ford. Any product that has been more Mazda than Ford always does alot better (quality wise). I think that the Focus and Protege being on the same Platform (along with the small Volvo sedan) in the future may be a very good thing. The focus platform is an excellent design, it's just the stuff attached to it (engine, transmission, brakes, etc) are not attached so well. Basically it's a quality control thing. For me, as long as the drivetrain is out of Japan, then these cars will be tough to beat.
  • mazdanymazdany Member Posts: 28
    Re: 2067

    Well said. Focus platform is an excellent platform and it is rally proven, they came ahead of Subaru this year in the WRC. The 2.3L I4 that Mazda is putting out (in the Mazda6)is the first of the 4 cylinder engines that Mazda is making for FoMoCo as a whole. When the 2004 Focus/Protege comes out I am sure a 2.0L I4 designed by Mazda will be in the engine compartment. Has anyone heard any details on either vehicle?
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Expect a Mazda 225 hp turbo 4cyl to be available in the performance models of the next gen cars. This is according to Motor Trend.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Dealers of low-end cars came out pretty well in the latest JD Powers survey of dealer satisfaction, with six companies that sell low-end cars in the top ten:

    1. Lexus
    2. Toyota
    3. Saturn

    4. BMW
    (tie) 5. Honda
    (tie) 5. Hyundai

    7. Acura
    8. Volvo
    9. Mitsubishi
    10. Kia


    Interesting that Honda placed higher than its premium cousin Acura. Toyota's and Honda's programs to improve dealer satisfaction over the past year must be working. Also the rankings of the two Korean makes is noteworthy.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Toyota!

    I am most surprised to see Saturn at third - are they slipping? If I am not mistaken (and you know, sometimes I am!!), they are usually number one...

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    Are some people thinking that that ranking is of CUSTOMER SATISFACTION with the dealer? It's not. That study is about the DEALER SATISFACTION with the manufacturer.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That begs the question, why would J.D. Powers go to the trouble of publishing a study with such a narrow audience? I mean, why does the general public give a flip about how satisfied their dealers are with the manufacturers?
  • jimbeaumijimbeaumi Member Posts: 620
    I know I've said it before, and in complete agreement with backy's "why" question, I ask why would I pay attention to the firm that hands out Best Limited-Service Spare Tire in Medium-Low Premium Utility Built in Des Moines on Thursdays.
  • jimbeaumijimbeaumi Member Posts: 620
    And on another note ... I just read the Saturn Ion review in Car and Driver. Not a good debut from their vantage point. Sadly, just one more example of GM missing the boat when smaller companies a half a world away are making cars that are a cut above the Ion (my Elantra, for one). For all of the resources and talent at their disposal, the Ion is inexcusable.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that Saturn is jinxed...they just cannot come out with one outstanding product, and Ion is a great example. Perfectly average, underwhelming car...OOH! But it's personalizable with roof rail selection! Yippee.

    Even VUE only sells well because you could make anything in a mini-ute right now and it would sell like hotcakes. I test-drove and compared it to its competition, and it came out.......totally average, what a surprise! It did not excel in one single category among all the ones I could think of.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Coincidently, I read CR's review of the Saturn L today (vs. Accord and Legacy). I know these are not low-end cars, but it reinforces James' and Stuart's point about Saturn. Here is a car just three years old, tweaked this year, and CR states it is "a generation behind" competitors like Accord and Camry--even way behind Hyundai! I've driven one before and I agree with CR's assessment. If that's the best Saturn can do, maybe GM should just admit defeat and stick to trucks, SUVs, and large cars.
  • chibi1chibi1 Member Posts: 5
    "I mean, why does the general public give a flip about how satisfied their dealers are with the manufacturers?"

    J.D. Power studies are commissioned by the manufacturers. The consumer sees basic results in the press release. Only the manufacturers see the numbers for below average ratings and other details.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    Matchbox car that is not to be taken seriously. Serious lack of Body Design 101 going on not to mention average-schmaverage marks for engineeringability. GM should punt. With them regarding Saturn it's 4th down and 30 on their own 15 yard line. Meanwhile, makers like Kia, Hyundai and GM Daewoo Auto & Technology Co. are making solid small cars that are good looking and reliable as well. Pass me another one of those chocolate chip cookies, would ya?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    "Meanwhile, makers like Kia,... and GM Daewoo Auto & Technology Co. are making solid small cars that are good looking and reliable as well."
    by iluvmysephia1


    LOL!!! ;-0

    -larry
  • jimbeaumijimbeaumi Member Posts: 620
    I also read that L200 review, and what surprises me most is that this is basically a GM Europe product. Their products from the Continent are typically worlds better than those engineered and built here. What a shame. The huge gap in the dashboard may be overlooked by the legally blind, but this same model was cited in the New Car Preview for its huge gap in the driver's seat base trim. Sheesh.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    from the U.S. except for one or two specialty cars that will be sold as Chevys in the years to come?

    I finally got a firsthand look at the Ion sedan, got to walk around it, sit in it, really get into it.

    I will be surprised if they can sell any of these at all. Ugly doesn't begin to describe it - funny slanted rear end, way too small wheels, etc - but that is subjective.

    It is also plasticky, insubstantial, uncomfortable, and gets way worse gas mileage than comparable models, all for a price which is not competitive if you figure in the fact that Saturn retailing is one-price-only.

    It is time for Saturn to call it quits. They never were really allowed to make a go of it. The Koreans are all over this segment now, with cars that feel better and are way more inexpensive. The Ion just loses out on every count.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    >>> The Ion just loses out on every count. <<<

    At least it still has the rustproof plastic panels. I think that's why I see so many Saturns where I live, in Minnesota.
  • jimbeaumijimbeaumi Member Posts: 620
    That is one car I will definitely scrutinize at the upcoming auto show in Detroit (starts January 11!).
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    "They never were really allowed to make a go of it. The Koreans are all over this segment now, with cars that feel better and are way more inexpensive. The Ion just loses out on every count."
    - nippononly


    Nip, in all honesty, do you think G.M. even has the "Know How" to make a top box compact car? Personally, I don't think they care to produce that type vehicle. Except for the obvious need to comply with CAFE.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    C/D reports in the January issue that the Honda Fit/Jazz (please call it the Jazz here, not the Fit!) will be coming to the U.S., but probably not next year. If you haven't heard about this five-door hatchback, there's a board on Edmunds.com dedicated to it - "Honda Fit/Jazz - What do you think?" C/D reports it will cost less than the Civic and be aimed at younger buyers (as in potential Scion buyers?). From the pictures it looks good, and if it has the traditional Honda quality and a low price, it should be a winner. BTW, this is the best-selling car in Japan.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    ...but American tastes in cars are more 3-box sedans instead of 2-box hatches or station wagons.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I like the looks of the Jazz/Fit just fine. It reminds me of a four-door cousin of my late, great '85 Civic S. And the two-box design provides the most interior volume for the size. Maybe Americans are catching on; witness the increased interest in station wagons and 5-door hatchbacks with a two-box design such as the Aerio, Focus, Pro 5, and Matrix/Vibe.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    That's why I get the Golf, instead of the Jetta..
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    all I can say is every compact car GM has ever had has come from someone else, someWHERE else...witness Chevy Metro, Geo Prizm, and on and on.

    GM has enormous resources - I think if it wanted to make a really good compact car, it probably could. But these cars are money-losers in GM's mind, and they will never devote significant resources to this segment.

    Even in the new "car focus" Gm has now, it is all about big cars, like "Malibu MAXX"

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    >>> ... every compact car GM has ever had has come from someone else, someWHERE else ... <<<

    Did you mean to say every <i>good GM compact car has come from somewhere else? GM has developed several of their own compact cars, e.g. the Corvair, the Vega and its offspring, the Citation and its relatives, and the Cavalier/Sunfire to name a few. I know it's also developed many compacts for overseas markets. In fact, some of these, such as the Vectras and Opels, are pretty good cars. Proving your statement that GM could develop a good compact car if they wanted to. Why they can't develop a good compact car for the U.S. market is another question. Sure they lose money, but every other car maker that sells a full line of cars realizes that they need the low-end cars to grab buyers when they are young and then offer them increasingly bigger and more expensive cars/trucks/SUVs as they grow older, richer, and have families. Saturn finally realized they needed other models to move their customers up to from the S cars, but it took them too long to offer a bigger car and a SUV, and when they did, they were not worth the wait.
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    "...every other car maker that sells a full line of cars realizes that they need the low-end cars to grab buyers when they are young and then offer them increasingly bigger and more expensive cars/trucks/SUVs as they grow older, richer, and have families."
    -Backy


    I would also think the current CAFE laws, Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency (CAFE), would be a huge incentive for all manufactures to build a very good small car?

    -larry
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Not necessarily a very good small car, just one with better than average fuel economy. It seems the US brands want a fuel efficient car while the import brands desire market share so they make a good quality fuel efficient car. Personally, I gave up on the domestics in the late 80s.

    To stay on-topic, my wife's 01 Elantra has had 21K trouble-free miles so far. Average mileage in mostly city driving is about 29.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    "Personally, I gave up on the domestics in the late 80s."
    by fushigi


    John, I owned a 91 Ford Escort(rebadged Mazda) for 9 years. 105,000 miles on the ody when I sold it to a local kid for $1800. I stupidly spent at least 2 grand on repairs and maintaince on it, the last couple of years I owned it. However, it really was a decent hatch back econo car for my family. Loaded the Christmas tree in it every year for almost a decade. :-) Must say that little car was well worth the $13,500 we paid for it. I just can't think of another car sold by the big three, worth my hard earned $$$, right now?

    -Larry
  • shriqueshrique Member Posts: 338
    "I just can't think of another car sold by the big three, worth my hard earned $$$, right now?"

    You got that right. The only one that comes close for me is the Focus but all those recalls scare me off. Maybe the 2nd gen. after Mazda does the design work.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    I mean, you can choose from the Focus, Neon, Saturn, or Cavfire.

    1. Focus
    2. Neon
    3. Saturn
    157. Cavfire

    If the Focus looked a little better and didn't have the recall problem, I would have considered it. IMO, they drive very well. Excellent ride and excellent handling--relatively. The design is right, the execution is wrong, at least here in NA. GM has never offered anything but horsecrap in the small car segment, and they wonder why they continually lose marketshare. People say that Saturns were good, but they have a serious oil consumption problem. I worked at different oil change joints for 7 years during high school and college and there is NO other car out there that burns oil like a Saturn with a 1.9L. Jetta 2.0Ls are close, but not all of them burn oil. The problem persisted for so many different model years that I would never consider one, even if Saturn has fixed the oil consumption issues. IMO, that kind of widespread problem is absolutely inexcusable in any modern gasoline engine car. The Geos were good, but only because they weren't really GM vehicles.
  • shriqueshrique Member Posts: 338
    i still don't understnad Car and Drive rating the Focus one of the 10 best year after year. Do they take into considering the recalls at all? No other car on the list is an unreliable car....well except for the corvette. But that car has more going for it than just a cute nice car.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    focus on reliabilty. Ha ha ha. I said Focus.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In their latest 10 Best reviews, they mentioned the "reliability" of the Focus as one of its strengths. I really love that magazine; that was the best laugh I had had in a long time. It's funny how the Corolla topped the Focus in their latest comparo of small cars, yet they still took the Focus for their 10 Best list.
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    Yea, if I HAD to buy a new domestic econo seadan, the Ford Focus would be my choice. ;-0

    -larry
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Here is what Car and Driver (which clearly does not like the looks of the ION), has to say about ION performance:

    "On the road, our feelings for the Ion improve slightly. The good news is that the global Delta platform making its debut here seems quite capable. The basic body structure is exceptionally rigid. A wide track and the grippy 205/55HR-16 Firestones, standard on our Ion 3 (base Ion 1s and midlevel Ion 2s make do with smaller rubber), provide admirable roadholding (0.81 g) and lend a stable, secure feeling at the limit. That grip is 0.02 g better than the best-in-test Ford Focus SE's in our recent 10-car econobox comparo ("Double-Dip Dreamboats," November). Braking is similarly impressive at 183 feet from 70 mph, 12 feet shorter than our test-winning Mazda Protegé LX could manage. Bumps and potholes are traversed &#151; even in curves &#151; quietly and with greater aplomb than one would expect from such a proletarian suspension as this strut and trailing twist-beam setup. The chassis hardware engineers all deserve a raise."

    I suggest some people who know a lot about cars disagree with your position that the ION is defeated in every way. It is telling that you give your position without ever having driven the car.

    Driving is why most people buy cars by the way.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "....and trailing twist-beam setup"

    Ish.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, people have to drive the cars they buy, and C/D did single out the Ion's chassis for praise. But people also have to look at their cars, sit in their cars, use the controls of their cars. If a car doesn't meet a buyer's non-driving criteria, it doesn't matter how well it drives. Ala the Focus--drives just fine, but has an uncomfortable driver's seat and extremely questionable quality and safety. Note that C/D summed up their report on the Ion with, "We waited seven years for this?" Obviously they were not impressed with the total package.
  • jimbeaumijimbeaumi Member Posts: 620
    It seems the chassis was the only positive point about that car. What I will look for at next month's Detroit auto show will be the little things we have to touch every single day -- steering wheel, door handles, controls -- that C&D specifically marks down for having plastic mold edges. Who wants to be reminded of the high level of plastics in cars today? We already can see it, don't make us touch it continually.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    I do not have a strong opinion about the interior as I have no interest in buying a car.

    The chassis makes up more than half of a modern automobile's engineering. My point is that it is more than a little exageration to say a car with the better chassis for its class -- and better braking and skid-pad -- is defeated in every way.

    Unless, of course, the only criteria in buying a car in this class is how buttons feel. Think about it. Would you say a Jaguar XK8 defeats a 911 in every way because its interior is snazzier?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    (If anyone may be offended by a tribute to a classic seasonal poem, they should skip this post.)

    T'was the night before Christmas, and all through the 'Hall
    few members were posting--were they still at the mall?
    The driveway was plowed with the greatest of care
    in hopes that new wheels may soon be parked there.

    The drivers were nestled all snug in their beds
    while visions of low-end cars danced in their heads.
    My sweetie in her driving gloves, and I in my cap,
    had just settled down for a long winter's nap.

    When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
    I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter.
    Away to the window I flew like a flash,
    Tore open the mini-blinds and threw up the sash.

    The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
    Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below,
    When, what with my eyes should I see 'neath the stars,
    But a miniature sleigh, and eight low-end cars!

    With a little old driver, so lively and quick,
    I knew in a moment it must be St. Nick.
    More rapid than eagles his small cars they came,
    And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name;

    "Now, CIVIC! now, LANCER! now, ECHO and ION!
    On, ACCENT! on SENTRA! on, SUNFIRE and NEON!
    To the front of the house! zoom right up to the wall!
    Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!"

    As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
    When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky,
    So on to my driveway the vehicles they flew,
    With the sleigh full of cars, and St. Nicholas too.

    And then, I could hear from a distance not far,
    The revving and humming of each little car.
    As I drew in my hand, and was turning around,
    Down the chimney St. Nicholas came with a bound.

    He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
    And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot;
    A bundle of keys he held at his side,
    And he looked like a dealer, ready for a test-ride.

    His eyes -- how they twinkled! his dimples how merry!
    His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!
    His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
    And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow;

    The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,
    And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath;
    He had a broad face and a little round belly,
    That shook, when he laughed like a bowlful of jelly.

    He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
    And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself;
    A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
    Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread;

    He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
    And filled all the stockings; then turned with a jerk,
    And laying his finger aside of his nose,
    And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose;

    He sprang to his sleigh, to his cars gave a whistle,
    And away they all flew like the down of a thistle.
    But I saw out my window, as he drove out of sight,
    A new low-end car on my drive--IT WAS MY LUCKY NIGHT!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Backy, that's WONDERFUL!!! ROFL -- thanks!

    Merry Christmas!

    :-)
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    Backy, congrats on your new 2003 Mazda Protegé ES! Leave it to old Saint Nick!

    BTW, nice job with the poem. I hope you are enjoying the Holidays, my friend!

    :-)

    Larry
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, I was hoping for a 3 Series on the driveway, red of course. As I do every year. Didn't get it this year, either. But then, I am in Texas for the holidays and maybe Santa dropped it off after I left, and it will be sitting there when I get back... yeah, right.

    BTW, saw an ad in the local Austin paper today for new 2002 Pro LXes for $10,995, ESes for $11,895. The small print says that they've taken the alloys off both, but still a great price. The next few days will be a great time to buy a car.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    0% is everywhere!


    Oh, and I would like to know what makes Logic think that driving is what makes people buy the cars they do...I know that logically it shoudl work that way, but the depressing reality is that at least 80% of the car buyers in America just buy a car to be A-to-B transportation, and of those a good 50% or more buy based on looks.


    But I was also mentioning the content of the Ion at its price point, which I feel does not measure up. The way it drives is one component of several to consider when buying a new car.


    I still want to check out that electric steering...can it be as bad as all the reviewers say?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    I truly feel the average Joe Blow will only have a short list of three or so cars to compare. At most!!! In the Low End Cars: Japanese v. American v. European v. Korean segment most prolly look at the Focus, Civic, Corolla, and perhaps the Elantra.

    -larry
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    would be leaving out the best looking two low-enders of the marketplace. Not gonna wanna do dat. Do I have to constantly patrol this politically-energized forum? Everybody's best buy is totally South Korean. Time for Saturn and the Ion to throw in the towel. Looks again like a new poorly-made Mattel designed on an etch-a-sketch. If they only would study the best when they designed.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    are a lot more than Civic, Corolla, Focus, and even Elantra, Accent, and Spectra IMO. If someone is looking just for A-to-B transportation, I think there's other good choices in the low-end class that can meet that requirement: Aerio, ECHO, Lancer, Protege, and Sentra. Even the Ion can provide basic A-to-B transportation, if its oddities don't turn you off. However, people looking mostly for "A-to-B transportation" usually place a high priority on reliability, so they will probably take Focus and Spectra off their list right off, and if it's their #1 criterion then it may come down to just the Japanese cars, and maybe the Ion, since the Koreans don't have as long a track record on reliability as the Japanese makes and Saturn.
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