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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    Yes, I agree there are MANY choices for an educated and well researched "Low End Cars" segment buyer. However, It is my belief that a non-car-nut, AKA Mr. or Mrs. Joe Blow "Low End Cars" buyer starts their hunt with a VERY short list of cars. It is my theory that the Civic, Corolla, Focus and perhaps the Elantra make up that short list.

    -larry
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    "However, people looking mostly for "A-to-B transportation" usually place a high priority on reliability..."

    Backy, might I add the word affordability to your excellent point? Try this out....



    -Larry
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I hjave to disagree on that one, since the Civic and Corolla are two of the highest-priced of the low-end cars, at least with any modicum of equipment on them. I think resale value comes before affordability for these A-to-B people.

    Based on sales volumes, I think (and I cringe a bit at this) that I'd have to add the Cavalier to your list of A-to-B cars that non-car-nuts buy. It's been a strong seller for many years--a testament to the huge Chevy dealer network if nothing else. And at least up here in the Great Brown North, I'd also add the Saturn S Series (too early to tell if the Ion will be as popular).
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    are so much higher priced than some of the Korean rivals now, I wonder if any of the domestics or Japanese will jump into the segment represented by the even power price point of the Kia Rio, for instance? Echo sales have been so far below expectation that I don't think it will be Toyota.

    At any given price, you can get a bigger and more luxurious car if you buy Korean as opposed to domestic or Japanese.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • shriqueshrique Member Posts: 338
    Give it up.
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    At any given price, you can get a bigger and more luxurious car if you buy Korean as opposed to domestic or Japanese.
    by nippononly


    Nippon, I hear you and you make several excellent points. However, I'm not sure the higher deprecation doesn't off-set much of the Korean price advantage at year three or four of ownership when lots of folks sell or trade?

    Finally, in the minds of many, fair or unfair, the Korean brand brings a negative stigma. My opinion and I am only speaking for myself, it would effect my personal ability to enjoy my "pride in ownership".

    In the end, I would rather park a 2003 Accord EX in my drive over a comparable 2003 Sonata GLS. I can and would spend the extra $3,500 for the Japanese product. Pretty darn sure at the end of the 48 month loan period, I will recoup most of the price difference.

    -Larry
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I agree with you 1000% - total ownership costs for Kias especially are probably way higher (depreciation factored in) over 4-5 years, enough so that the initial price differential paid for the Japanese car is more than offset.

    However, I am not convinced that a majority of prospective buyers make this calculation when they purchase.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    Although it's not really a sedan, the SCION xA might be interesting. Try here even though it may be slow to load:
    http://www.scion.com/drive/drive_xa_photos.html

    If Toyota can keep the price down, those standard 15 inch wheels, antilock brakes, power windows, doors, and mirrors, AC, digital clock, and 6 speaker stereo with MP3 capability could be strong selling points for a vehicle in this class. Also note, the xA has the same engine as the ECHO.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The SCION xA looks like a direct competitor to the Honda Jazz/Fit, which will also be coming to the U.S. But what will be the price of the xA? The Jazz/Fit is to be priced below the Civic--which puts it squarely in the ECHO/Accent/Rio category. So Toyota and Honda are jumping into the way-low-end fray; how about Nissan, Mazda, et. al.? VW could jump in if they wanted to; I saw a nifty little SEAT hatchback (Mexican plates) in Texas last week.

    Re total ownership costs for Korean cars over 4-5 years... you might be surprised that they aren't as bad as you think. To get an idea, check out the TCO calculator at Edmunds.com, and run some numbers for low-end cars. You'll see that Korean cars like the Accent, Rio, Elantra, and even the Spectra compare quite well in 5-year cost of ownership to other makes. For example, I ran some numbers recently (posted them over in the Kia board) and found that even the Spectra had a TCO that was as good or better than seven competitors, including all U.S. makes and some of the Japanese makes. And that was the highest (worst) TCO of the Korean low-end cars.
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    "However, I am not convinced that a majority of prospective buyers make this calculation when they purchase."

    Agreed!

    -Larry
  • boredbored Member Posts: 300
    I agree.
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    I agree.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I agree too!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    to play with the big Korean boys anymore? Yee-haaw!!! I was right all along!!!! The Japanese makers are LOSING IT BIG TIME!!! Hyundai-Kia-Kia-Hyundai-Kia-Kia-Hyundai-Hyundai-Kia-Kia-Hyundai-Kia-Hyundai-Kia!!!!!!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Read an article on Scion this week in USA Today. It quoted a source at Toyota saying that the Scion models would start at around $16,000 without options, which they figure would add about $3,000 to a typical purchase. If this is true, it appears that Scion is not aimed so much at the low-end market but at the youth market, meaning it will not be a direct competitor for the Honda Fit/Jazz but more for vehicles like the Element. Another this this source said is that Scion is an experiment for Toyota, and they are using it to learn about selling to buyers outside their typical (older) market. Thus they will not mind if sales are that high. Hmmm... seems to me like Toyota is making a huge investment (new dealers etc.) for an "experiment". Oh well, I won't be able to buy one for about 18 months anyway.
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    I thought I read "independent dealer" before, too. I thought Toyota was going to use their own dealer system with a special corner of the dealer for the Scion line. Originally it seemed like Toyota was going to be producing $8,000 vehicles...guess not. I don't think there is anyway Scion will be able to charge $3,000 in accessories and upgrades unless they are all those aftermarket things since their models are fairly well loaded anyway. I know I wouldn't want all that crap on my car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'd love to see a Toyota priced that low, but I doubt whether Toyota, or any Japanese automaker, can afford to build a quality car at that price. Even a stripped 2-door ECHO is $10k, and the pictures I've seen of the Scions are definitely upscale compared to the ECHO. Looks like those who want a new car in the U.S. for $8k are still going to be limited to the Accent, Rio, and Spectra (under $8k now, with the Kia loyalty rebate).
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    The xB and xA in Japan really don't cost all that much but I'm not sure if they have all those features standard that are on the Scions. I'm not sure what the tariff is either. Toyota needs to find a niche in the low end market and work it. They can't really compete with Korean price but might be able to beat them in offering a different kind of low end product, whatever that may be.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    They need to bring the Euro Corolla hatchback over here. It seems like it would be a nice fit for Scion. It has the Celica GTS's 1.8L. I don't care what they call it here, Scion, whatever, just bring it over.

    Check it out:

    http://www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/frame_start.jsp?id=SPLASH_range
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    they could bring over the Yaris hatchback, or ECHO, or whatever they'd call it. I've seen them close-up, and that is one cute little bugger.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    about Yaris, but it sure is time for there to be a corolla hatchback again...I think I read somewhere that in Europe the hatchback model is the best-selling corolla.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    In Europe, due to space restraints, taxes, etc....the hatchback design is usually favored over the sedan. Reason why the Golf sells so well in Europe compared to the Bora (Jetta).
  • mike1qazmike1qaz Member Posts: 93
    It's time for more 3 and 5 door models here.

    The mazda hatch and wagon look promising, but the smaller car market (focus,accent) need more manufacturers to compete.

    And yes, I understand this is less profitable for them, but it can be the lure to get people into their brand.

    Having seen some of the future car pics on this and other sites, I believe they are indeed coming.
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    I could see that Euro sport model Corolla hatch 3 door and 5 door being more popular with Scion's target audience than the goofy stuff they have planned now.
  • shriqueshrique Member Posts: 338
    Now your just being silly.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    crew and they were all seconding each others emotions and basically ganging up on me so I just decided to throw some gasoline on the Japanese vs. Korean wars a tad, that's all. Just kidding-just imagine you just saw that monkey on the Kia commercial of a week or two ago and then post carry on with whatever else it was that you were thinking, K?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I saw an airport gate security car parked outside a gate at the Orlando airport today. It was a '03 Rio. Glad to see the government is saving some bucks for this purpose, since all they need is something to get them from one gate to another.

    Also saw in USA Today today that Suzuki dealers have confirmed that they will be getting a Daewoo next year to sell as a Suzuki. Didn't mention which model, or have a picture--wouldn't want to have too much news in that paper after all.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    GM Daewoo Auto & Tech.Co. officials have announced that they will export GM DA&TCO vehicles to America to be sold under their Suzuki branch. Hints have been that Suzuki will sell the Daewoo Kalos(pronounced Car-los)subcompact, the Lanos replacement. They will also sell the Lacetti sedan, which is the Nubira replacement. Take a peek at Lacetti if you wish here:
    http://home.att.net/~brown20850188032/lacetti.html
    Also read yesterday at Edmunds' 'Yet Another Daewoo Topic' site that Pontiac will sell the Leganza/Magnus here in the States. Whew! Better go hunting for more information about the Pontiac Magnus. That one seems odd but, if you think about it, it will immediately add some respectability to the Pontiac portion of GM. Tee-hee! =:)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    Here's a European review of the Daewoo Kalos. Note the engine size: 1.4L producing 83bhp. Humm...might be a leeettttlllle small for our hot-doggin' roads here. Then again, if Germans buy Kalos they would run them on the Autobahn, right?
    http://www.channel4.com/apps26/4car/jsp/main.jsp?Ink=231_2&re- - - - viewid=550

    8 valve engine, 0-60 in 13.2 sec., 37.7mpg.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    This is interesting news. However, I don't quite see where the Lacetti would fit into Suzuki's lineup. The Lacetti is too close in size and price to the Aerio sedan, though more attractive and contemporarily styled. Anyone here know how they are going to market these similar size cars? I think a better fit for Suzuki would be the Magnus, since Suzuki lacks an upscale sedan for economy car buyers to grow into.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    Camry-if but a little smaller, but it looks larger than the Aerio sedan. We may just have to wait until we can find tech.specs on Lacetti, to date I haven't been able to locate them. It would fit in the Suzuki lineup in the model just above Aerio sedan size then. Magnus is larger than Aerio and Lacetti both. The Kalos(pronounced Car-los)is actually closer to Aerio size but a tad shorter and a spot is definitely there for this little subcompact in the Suzuki lineup.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I just returned from a week in Shanghai, PRC. If you have not been there or seen pictures, it is one impressive city, especially in the newer downtown area that looks like a showplace for modern skyscraper architecture. Of course I scoped out the low-end car scene, expecting to see a wide variety of small cars not usually found in the U.S. To my surprise, what I saw was... almost no low-end cars! Now, I didn't see the whole city, but did spend a lot of time on the streets and highways of Shanghai. The most popular car there seems to be the VW Santana, which looks like the Quantum of the late 80's. Almost every taxi is a Santana, and there are lots of private Santanas also. There were also a lot of Passats. The second most popular car there seemed to be (are you ready): Buick Century! I was really surprised by that until I found out that there's a joint venture between the PRC and GM called Shanghai GM that makes Buicks like the Century and Regal, plus some Buicks we don't have here like a rebadged Silouette minivan and a subcompact model (now that was weird, a subcompact Buick). Reportedly it is the largest Sino-US joint venture in the PRC. I did eventually see a few low-end cars, and a few luxury cars, but most cars were midsized: the VWs I mentioned, plus quite a few Accords, some Camrys, Galants, and even a few Sonatas. I don't recall seeing any Nissans or Kias, but I did see one multi-line car dealership that had Kias. I also saw a display for the VW Polo, a good-looking subcompact hatchback. Small minivans (microvans?) were very popular, including a real stubby little thing (like a 3/5 size 1st-gen Toyota minivan) with a Chinese name that looked like it should have a wind-up key on its roof. I did not get the chance to drive in Shanghai, and I wouldn't want to. The drivers are as crazy as in some large U.S. cities, maybe crazier. If you are a pedestrian, better be real careful because it seems that cars, bikes, and mopeds think that they have the right of way at all times--stoplights are only a suggestion. Horn-honking is very popular. But I noticed that the taxi drivers used their lane-changers for every course correction. I also noticed that the taxi drivers didn't like to use 1st gear much (the Santanas had sticks), but would rather shudder their way forward after a stop. Maybe that tactic prolongs transmission life?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    There's a few Chinese buffets in towns north of Seattle that have these huge colorful pictures of a modern city with tall skyscrapers. These pictures cover a large part of the wall and are very impressive. I asked a worker at one of the restaurants what city that was in the picture and he replied "that's Shanghai!" There was neon all over the place and very tall buildings all around. Buick Century's, huh? VW's and Buick Century's, unlikely best-sellers for a large Chinese city, but you saw them yourself. What brought you to Shanghai, backy?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was presenting at a technical conference. The dearth of small cars is still a mystery to me. Maybe I would have seen more of them in the suburbs or rural areas, where the income level would have been lower. I expect you'd have to make pretty good yuan to live in the central city in one of those skyscrapers, just like Manhattan.
  • zigliflerziglifler Member Posts: 99
    is that what they call the money there yaun ? ya see any good cheap pc parts ?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    But I went to a "super mall" (a big one, not as big as my local Mall of America, a.k.a. Mall of Wretched Excess, but big) and they had lots of electronics stores, but prices didn't seem to be any better than I could get from ibm.com or dell.com or my local Best Buy store. But this was in the high-rent district of Shanghai. The mall is where I saw the display for the VW Polo. I wish VW would bring that car in here, it looked like a nifty little hatchback.

    BTW, I read the other day that Hyundai and China formed a joint venture to make Elantras and Sonatas in China. I don't know if the factory is running yet, but I did see one new Sonata running around--no Elantras. I was talking with a co-worker from Singapore and a co-worker from South Korea, and I mentioned I owned an Elantra. I think the Korean was pleased (I think Hyundai is one of her accounts), but I don't think the guy from Singapore was impressed. He said he owns a Toyota. He probably thinks I am a second-class citizen now. ;-)
  • protegextwoprotegextwo Member Posts: 1,265
    Well....
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The March issue of Consumer Reports reviewed five low-end sedans: Accent, Aerio, Cavalier, Ion, and Neon. Most of them were optioned up over the $15k mark, but they all start under $15k. None of the cars did very well. That was a surprise as I thought the Aerio would score better based on my experience with it. CR complained about its harsh ride, but I found it to ride quite well, at least as smooth as the Civic and smoother than the Protege. Another surprise was that CR included a subcompact, the Accent, with four compacts in the same group. Not surprisingly, the Accent didn't score very high. But it did outrank three much more costly cars, the Ion, Neon, and Cavalier. That's not so surprising for the Cavalier, an eight-year-old design, but the Neon is the same age as the Accent and the Ion is brand-new. When will DC and GM get serious about small cars?
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I am still fascinated by the Accent, I wish I could drive one for a couple weeks to see what it is like to live with one.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Some rental car agencies have Accents. If one in your area does, you could rent one for a couple of weeks. Cars like the Accent typically have very low rental rates. I've learned a lot about cars I was considering buying by driving rentals on business trips. I figure if the car holds up as a rental, it will hold up well in daily use.
  • bittoo106bittoo106 Member Posts: 6
    Toyota canada just released a echo hatchback, for the canadian market. It looks really cool. Check out their website www.toyota.ca
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    We won't be getting it. :-(
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    Thanks for the advice, but since I already bought an Si, I'll probably be skipping it. However, that said, if I win $6500 in the lottery, I might have to get one.
  • bittoo106bittoo106 Member Posts: 6
    To save on the fuel taxi driver's start of in 2nd gear. Many modern luxery cars also start of in 2nd gear in auto transmission.
  • according2meaccording2me Member Posts: 236
    they lose in early clutch replacement I'll bet. If it's a manual, they will likely have to slip the clutch longer to get rolling without stalling the engine.

    That toyota hatch looks interesting. What is there starting price.
  • bittoo106bittoo106 Member Posts: 6
    That's where the experience comes in. These driver are really good with standerd, they don't even use the clutch once the car is moving to shift up or shift down.

    The toyota hatchback price is not out yet, I suspect around $15000cdn.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Guess which two low-end car makers join Acura and Subaru as the only automakers that have all of their vehicles from 1995-2002 rated at least "Average" by Consumer Reports in predicted reliability (that is, for vehicles with enough data to be rated)?

    Hyundai and Toyota.

    This is particularly impressive for Toyota, given that they had 17 models in the ratings and just 3 "Average" marks across all models and all years. But not a bad showing by Hyundai, which was singled out by CR along with the Japanese brands as among the best in reliability for 2002 models. Those who a couple of years ago doubted whether the Koreans would ever catch up to the Japanese in quality--it seems to be happening faster than most people expected.
  • dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    "Those who a couple of years ago doubted whether the Koreans would ever catch up to the Japanese in quality--it seems to be happening faster than most people expected."

    And as far as low-end cars go, it seems that GM picked a good time to make an all-new 2004 Cavalier (if the rumors I heard are true) - as it stands now, if I had to buy a cheap car, I wonder what I would chose:

    Cavalier Coupe (not Z24)
    or
    Accent GSi

    Dinu
    Currently 2001 Protege ES
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, IMO the Cavalier is more car than the Accent, in several respects especially performance, but I would not want to own one. The interior quality is abysmal, the seats are uncomfortable to me, and it does not have the utility of a hatchback. Also the Accent has a superior warranty. I'd probably go with the base Accent hatch since there's no advantage in power for the GSi and a big difference in price. If I were going to buy a GSi, I'd probably spend a little more and get a base model Elantra GT hatchback, with tons more features and more utility.

    I haven't heard anything about a really all-new Cavalier for 2004. What I have heard is that there will be an all-new Malibu this fall.

    Also, it's misleading I think for GM to advertise the 2003 Cavalier as "all-new" (just as it's misleading for Hyundai dealers to advertise 2003 Accents as "all-new"). There is a new engine (and a good one from all indications) and tweaked front and rear fascias, but most of the car dates back to the last major redesign that debuted in 1994--which means this is a car that was designed ten years ago.
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