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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Here's my rating of all the low-end sedans, based on the list and criteria I suggested in #2615. Rankings are based on '04 or, if available now, '05 models. Except for the Aveo, I've driven all of these cars. I did not consider resale value or styling in my rankings, except styling as a tie-breaker for the Cavalier and Sunfire. The bottom line was, which car would I rather drive every day?

    18. Chevy Cavalier
    Pros: Good power
    Cons: Cheap and uncomfortable interior, noisy, harsh ride, terrible crash scores, short warranty
    Verdict: Not a bad small car--for 1994

    17. Pontiac Sunfire - See Chevy Cavalier (tiebreaker based on styling)

    16. Kia Rio
    Pros: Low price, good driving position, great warranty
    Cons: Rough and inefficient drivetrain, lack of interior space
    Verdict: Decent city or school car, but sorely needs a redesign

    15. Dodge Neon
    Pros: Roomy back seat, long powertrain warranty
    Cons: Noisy, stiff ride, cheap interior bits
    Verdict: After ten years, DC still hasn't figured out how to put power controls on all four windows.

    14. Hyundai Accent
    Pros: Low price, good driving position, decent ride, great warranty
    Cons: Rough and inefficient drivetrain, lack of interior space
    Verdict: There's much better cars for not much more money

    13. Nissan Sentra
    Pros: Decent power, nice interior trim, PZEV engine available
    Cons: Cramped rear seat, sloppy handling, subpar braking
    Verdict: Not bad when introduced, but has been surpassed by newer models

    12. Saturn ION
    Pros: Compliant ride, rustproof panels, good reliability
    Cons: Noisy engine, cramped and uncomfortable interior
    Verdict: Good platform but unsatisfying overall package

    11. Chevy Aveo (I've sat in it but not driven it)
    Pros: Low price, roomy interior, smooth ride (reported)
    Cons: Low power, short warranty compared to competitors
    Verdict: A nice little Korean car but without the warranty advantage of other Korean cars

    10. Mitsubishi Lancer
    Pros: Good interior room, good crash scores, long powertrain warranty
    Cons: Noisy, relatively low fuel economy
    Verdict: A capable small car that doesn't stand out against tough competition

    9. Suzuki Forenza
    Pros: Feature content, interior room and comfort, comfortable ride, long powertrain warranty
    Cons: No SABs available, rough powertrain, low fuel economy for the class
    Verdict: A pleasant car but lacking in safety and refinement

    8. Suzuki Aerio
    Pros: Roomy interior, good power, decent handling, long powertrain warranty, good crash scores
    Cons: Stiff ride, rear seats not too comfortable, some cheap interior bits
    Verdict: A lot of car for the money, but not as refined as some competitors

    7. Toyota ECHO
    Pros: Great fuel economy, good interior room for its size, good performance and handling, Toyota quality and reliability
    Cons: Some cheap interior bits, pricey when loaded up
    Verdict: A fine but unappreciated small car, but a questionable value when optioned out

    6. Toyota Corolla
    Pros: Smooth ride and powertrain, great fuel economy, good power, roomy interior, good crash scores, Toyota quality and reliability
    Cons: Uncomfortable driving position, cheap-feeling HVAC controls, floaty ride
    Verdict: One of the best small cars, but desparately needs a telescoping steering wheel

    5. Kia Spectra
    Pros: Smooth and compliant ride, quiet, roomy interior with quality feel, good power, standard safety features, great warranty
    Cons: Unknown reliability and crash scores, doesn't match the best in fuel economy
    Verdict: If it holds up, it will join the top cars in the class

    4. Ford Focus
    Pros: Great ride and handling, PZEV engine available, good interior room, good powertrain warranty, good crash scores
    Cons: Uncomfortable drivers seat, poor but improving reliability history
    Verdict: One of the best small cars has gotten better with a '05 refresh and improved quality

    3. Honda Civic
    Pros: Great fuel economy, good blend of ride and handling, great shifter, roomy and comfortable interior, good crash scores, Honda quality and reliability
    Cons: Low feature content, short warranty, somewhat noisy and underpowered compared to competitors
    Verdict: No major weak spots and a lot of plusses--but Honda quality comes at a price

    2. Mazda3
    Pros: Great handling and power, fine shifter, quality feel, PZEV engine available, roomy interior, good driving position
    Cons: Not much feature content, crash scores not great for a new design
    Verdict: Best in class, if you don't mind a dearth of features

    1. Hyundai Elantra
    Pros: Good balance of ride and handling, roomy interior, great driving position, high feature content, good reliability, great warranty
    Cons: Doesn't match the best in fuel economy
    Verdict: If you can find a better car for under $15,000 MSRP, buy it!
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    You're reasonably valid in your arguments, but there are big differences within trim lines of the models you mention. Additionally, I dont really understand your ranking of the Aveo, especially since you havent driven it. Have you driven a Sentra? Mine doesnt handle sloppily, but to each his own. I happily take a Sentra 1.8S over a Lancer, ION, Aveo, or Forenza, and Id take an ION over the Aveo or Forenza, if for no other reason than side curtains and a gutsy engine. Its interesting that you think the HVAC controls of the Corolla are cheap feeling, despite that the Corolla has been regarded as having one of the better small car interiors. I think its a bit underrated in your ranking, as is the Spectra, and you've overrated the Civic and Focus and jumped off the deep end with your placement of the ECHO (The Sentra handles sloppily but the tippy ECHO has good handling? Ha! Try driving to Montreal in a crosswind). Seems like driving position is a big deal for you- but not all of us are tall.

    Less than flattering article on the Aveo: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2004-05-20-aveo_x.htm.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm not very tall--5'9.5", 32" inseam--pretty average height. The Corolla's driving position problem IMO is inexcusable, when so many cars in this class, even some designed before the Corolla (so Toyota could learn from them) get it right.

    Yes, a comfortable driving position is a key decision criterion for me. If I can't be comfortable behind the wheel of my car, why would I want to drive it?

    I did note that I haven't driven the Aveo (but have driven all the others, including the Sentra 1.8) so my ranking of the Aveo is tentative until I can find one to drive. Three visits to my local dealer to drive a 5-speed Aveo have been futile.

    As I recall, you don't own a Sentra with the 1.8 engine, but the more powerful model, right? I didn't consider that here because those list for over $15k. All the cars I compared have an MSRP under $15k w/o destination--which is how Edmunds.com determines its price categories. If we don't consider MSRP here, we'll be comparing Spec-Vs to Rios.

    Another big criterion for me is back-seat room, as I sometimes need to put three people back there. So Sentra and other cars with skimpy back seat room lost points.

    The Corolla has a pretty nice interior, as far as materials quality, but it's pretty bland IMO and the HVAC controls do feel cheap to me, sorry. They're not nearly as smooth as the Civic's or even those on low-buck cars like the Forenza or Elantra. I only mention it because everyone always raves about the "smooth Toyota switchgear." Well, on the Corolla they are cutting some corners I think.

    You're pretty good about picking apart my opinions--how about posting your own rankings and rationale?
  • kmagkmag Member Posts: 98
    Here are mine, based mainly on reviews and sitting in the cars since I have driven very few of these....but I was in the market a year ago and considered many of them. I dont test drive a car i am not seriously considering buying just to drive it.

    My top concerns are good long term reliability and low maintenace cost, attractiveness to my eye, and price.

    NOT APPEALING:
    Dodge Neon-I need a car that has a good chance to get me to 120K miles in 5 years with no major repairs. This is not the one.

    Saturn ION-Horrid styling. Center gauges suck. As bad as the seats are in my Saturn, this car is not much better. As soon as these debuted I thought to myself, this car will have big incentives within a year. I was right.

    Chevy Aveo-Ugly. And too small. I had a Festiva ten years ago, dont want to go that small again. And its based on a Daewoo design -'nuff said for reliability.

    Mitsubishi Lancer-Ugly inside and out. Overpriced.

    Suzuki Forenza-Attractive in and out, great price, but it's a Daewoo design....

    Suzuki Aerio-Seriously ugly. Digital dash is nasty. Overpriced.

    Toyota ECHO-Butt ugly. Reveiews are not kind to this cars driving dynamics. High price.

    Kia Spectra-4 door hatch, my preferred body style. Price is reasonable. But its a Kia, reliability is questionable.

    Toyota Corolla-High priced new and used, otherwise appealing.

    Honda Civic-High priced new and used, otherwise un-appealing. I just dont get what is so great about this car. Interior looked below-average to me at the car show. Styling is dull and anonymous. It places midpack in comparisons at C&D, the only mag whose opinions I generally trust. Yet some people think its still the greatest thing ever. I like Honda, 15 years ago I owned a CRX. 10 years ago a Civic was very appealing when I was shopping for a small car....but time marches on, folks, and this car has not.

    BREIFLY CONSIDERED:
    Kia Rio-The funky Cinco wagon has a certain appeal at times, but its the most expensive model and my wife would kill me if I got one of these.

    Chevy Cavalier-My wife has one and I dont want two of the same kind of car in the garage. The seats are not that bad-they are much better than my Saturn. Clunky suspension, weak and noisy engine on acceleration are the worst points. Good MPG, attractive styling, smooth highway ride. Not as bad a car as many people say.

    Pontiac Sunfire-The front end styling is gross. It was an attractive little car when it first came out but they really screwed it up with this latest nose job. And everyone Ive known who has owned a Pontiac has not had good luck with them.

    Mazda3-Was not available last year. But I considered the Protege. Attractive inside and out and reliable, but out of my budget.

    Nissan Sentra-Unappealing styling, but I could live with it. Good reputaion. But, high priced new and used.

    SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED:
    Hyundai Accent-The hatch is a big plus for me but would like a 5 door model. Good seat comfort. But I had owned an Excel in 1991 and didnt want another Hyundai. Sometimes wish I had got one, as I try seat cushions and covers in my Saturn to tame the massively uncomfortable drivers seat.

    Hyundai Elantra-Good equipment at a good price. I could have got a brand new 5 speed for under 10K last spring. But this car and the Accent have timing belts. Wish they made a GL hatchback without all the extra cost stuff that's on the GT....or an L sedan with only AC and manual windows/locks and no radio for us cheapskates.

    Ford Focus-My top pick as far the car itself. Has everything I want and need-appealing styling in and out, decent seat comfort, fun to drive, smooth ride, crisp handling, 4 door hatch model-and many cars on the dealers lots. But even with 3K rebates last spring, Id have to get a six year loan...and the damn reputation would follow it along like a welded-on trailer. I had good luck with another recall-plagued Ford product, a Mercury Mystique, but decided that the risk was not worth the investment.

    I had to reduce my budget to the 7-8K range, and ended up buying a used 2002 Saturn SL. Lousy seats and a clunky shifter are the worst features. Sprightly engine, flat cornering and great MPG are pluses.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's several cars I've taken off my shopping list because of styling, but I didn't factor that into my rankings here because styling is so personal. For example, I don't think the '04 Lancer (restyled), Aveo, or Aerio (sedan) are that bad, not to the point I'd take them off my list just for styling. I'm not crazy about the ECHO's styling but it has a certain funkiness about it that I think I could live with, especially the 2-door. The Civic and Corolla are really bland, but I think the Civic 2-door is pretty sharp (and there aren't that many small 2-door sedans out there).

    I had terrible luck with my Mystique but I did enjoy driving it (when it wasn't in the dealer's service bay). I might even consider a Focus next time if the quality keeps improving and the driver's seat is changed--just something about it that doesn't fit me well. But by then there will be a new Elantra, Civic, Sentra, Accent, Rio, Neon, and the Cobalt to offer competition.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Backy, thanks for the explanation. However, I am still curious as to why you find the Sentra's handling "sloppy". I would certainly agree with you that back seat room in the Sentra clearly reveals its late 90s design (introduced in Spring 2000 as a 2000). Also, the Sentra has quite possibly the most absurd excuse for a cupholder that Ive ever seen.

    I drove the Aerio upon its introduction, when it was 140hp (before the bumps to the 145 2.0L, and subsequent larger displacement 155 hp engine). It felt like a heavier, stronger ECHO with a darker Fisher Price interior, and worse MPG. The ECHO is a great car, IF your only consideration is highway MPG. I was on a road trip (already mentioned) one time and the car was seriously disturbed by wind, which is a rather disconcerting feeling. Space utilization in both the Aerio and ECHO is impressive though.

    The Focus ZX5 2.3L that I drove impressed me. However, like you, I did not like the drivers seat. Handling was top notch, and the ride felt absorbent. Unfortunately, Ford seriously messed with the functional yet stylish dash/center stack this year, and the radio especially is very ugly to behold, and imparts a far less youthful feel. Sytling is subjective though, and overall, with continuous improvements in quality, this is an impressive design. However, my test ZX5, which was FAR from loaded, stickered above $16,000, so Im not sure if this impression means much. Engine is a big deal to me, and I dont think Id be happy with the Focus' guttural 2.0Ls.

    The only Civic that competes in the $15,000 category is the DX or DX VP. No power amenities, a paucity of torque, no rear stabilizer bar, ABS not even an option, lacks the trick instrumentation of LX and EX models. No thanks, next. Phenomenal back seat room, ergonomics, and fuel economy, though. Corolla suffers similarly but the CE trim line includes a rear stabilizer bar, 15 inch wheels and tires, tach, front and rear cupholders, and a few other niceties that the Civic DX VP lacks. Additionally, the Corolla will outsprint the Civic DX/VP/LX by a full second to 60 while offering the same excellent fuel economy and rear seat room. While I agree that the driving position isnt the best, its not a complete deterrant for me, and I'd easily pick the Corolla over the Civic because its a better overall package at this price.

    In reality, the Mazda 3i is pretty unappealing in this price category. It is far and away the best car, but it is NOT remotely a complete package at $15,000.

    The ION and Lancer have ZERO competitive advantages compared to anything in this class, but between the two, Id probably pick the Mitsu for the free maintenance and longer warranty.

    The Rio is not a contender. Why buy it when the Accent is available with standard side impact airbags, a nicer interior, and a newer (though still kinda old) design? Both have poop fuel economy for the size, though.

    So, that leaves the Spectra and Elantra. My dime would likely be put on the Spectra, for its side and curtain airbags, and to me, more appealing interior. The Elantras seats arent firm, they're hard, and the Spectra's felt nicer. Since they share powertrains, both are strong but not exactly fuel efficient. The Elantras "Poor" rating from the IIHS is a pretty big negative, but allegedly, the design/crashworthiness has been changed for 2004, so we'll keep our fingers crossed. Airbags that fire late and seat tracks that dont lock arent things a mfr. should be lauded for (especially when it takes that mfr years to attempt a remedy), but the standard side head protection airbags are HUGE! Styling, as always, is subjective, and I dont like the Spectra's [non-permissible content removed]. But I do like the front end fascia, very clean, without being cute. Both are well equipped at the price, the Hyundai being the better deal on the surface, but the Kia is newer. Its kind of nice to have a car that isnt scheduled for a redesign in one calendar year.

    My vote in the sub $15,000 class? The Kia Spectra, by a nose over the Hyundai Elantra. To be honest though, I would try my hardest to save/invest for a longer period, just to have more choices by rising to the next price bracket in the small/compact class.

    [My vote in the $15,000 to $20,000 class? The Mazda 3i or s, in a decided margin over the neck-and-neck 2005 Corolla LE (love the VSC option as well as the Optitron instrumentation!) and Civic EX. Dont get me wrong, I love my Sentra 2.5, but many things have changed in the market in the 18 months since I purchased it.]

    ~alpha

    PS- You're right, I havent driven the Spectra yet. But, since its essentially an Elantra- Im confident that it will have the same fairly refined manners, though I'd trade some of the Elantras ride quality for a bit more roll control.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually the Corolla LE and S do just squeeze in under the $15k limit. So I agree they are a lot more car than the Civic DX/VP/HX, and if it were not for the seating position problem, which I find a killer issue, I would have put the Corolla higher, at least third. I see no reason to spend $15k on a car that I hate driving.

    As for Spectra over Elantra, I see your points. The main reasons I put the Elantra ahead of the Spectra are: 1) driving position (Kia changed the seat height adjuster on the new Spectra from a dual-knob setup to a single lever, not nearly as adjustable), 2) more equipment on the Elantra GT vs. the Spectra EX for about the same money, 3) unknown reliability on the Spectra (although I expect it will be improved over the old Spectra, given Kia's improvements lately). The Spectra does have the side curtains, but the side crash scores on the Elantra are quite good. And as you mentioned, the IIHS will be testing the '04 Elantra with its redesigned seat track, so I expect the frontal offset score to be much improved. Hyundai has too much at stake (risking having the only compact car with a "Poor" frontal offset crash test score) not to have fixed this problem.

    As for lack of equipment, I did take that into account in my ratings. That's why the Mazda3i was second to the Elantra. If we went up to $20k, I'd put the Mazda3s first, and the Civic would be higher in EX trim also--but still behind the Mazda3s, and a nudge behind the Elantra GT. Recall that Edmunds.com rated the Civic EX first in their comparo of small sedans, with the Elantra GLS second. So I'm not the only one who thinks the Civic and Elantra are at the top of the class of small cars. Later, they named the Mazda3 the "Most Wanted" under $15k--as long as you don't mind rolling down your own windows, manually adjusting mirrors, and running around the car to unlock the doors for your other riders. ;-)

    As for the "sloppy" handling of the Sentra, that's based on multiple drives of the current design, but in 1.8/GXE trim. It just did not have the crisp handling of cars like the Mazda3, Civic, Focus, Spectra, or the Elantra GT. I felt like I was driving a compact Buick when I drove the Sentras. That surprised me because my '92 and '97 Sentras handled much better. I just didn't enjoy driving the current Sentra, and the cramped back seat was the knockout. Maybe it's a much different car with the bigger engine. Is the suspension any different on the 2.5 Sentras?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    A few small points:

    On the Corolla:
    2005 Corolla LE: $15405 (manual trans, incl. destination).

    2005 Corolla S: $15240 (manual trans, incl. destination).

    You said "So I agree they are a lot more car than the Civic DX/VP/HX, and if it were not for the seating position problem, which I find a killer issue, I would have put the Corolla higher, at least third. I see no reason to spend $15k on a car that I hate driving."

    -Fair enough, I certainly agree that it makes no sense to drive a car in which one cannot be comfortable. For those that can, (usually shorter-legged people) 3rd is a good finish in this crowd!

    On the Sentra:
    Truth be told, I do not know if the Sentra 2.5 has a different suspension than the 1.8/GXE. However, my car handles significantly better than my aunt's 1995 model.

    Here's what Edmunds had to say about the Sentra in its most recent test- of a 2.5LE

    Conclusion:
    "Surprising power and handling, but its age shows when stacked against newer competitors."

    Also- I have a question for you- how is the Elantra GT's suspension different from the GLS? I wasnt aware there was substance to the GT designation, I just thought it was a trim differentiation, of the same ilk as the Corolla S.

    ~alpha

    PS- With respect to the Edmunds.com comparo from which I quoted, I will be honest and tell you that the Sentra 2.5LE finished higher than it deserved. The Corolla was short-changed, the Civic FAR over-rated in comparison, and the Elantra probably should have won.

    And backy, seriously check out how ugly they made the Focus center stack for 2005! EW!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The way I decided to draw the line for which cars fall under $15k is the same way Edmunds.com does (since that's where this board is), and they don't include destination charges for some odd reason in their price categories. So I didn't either, as I had noted previously. Thus cars like the Corolla LE/S and Elantra GT qualify.

    The Elantra GT has a "sport suspension" that includes gas-filled shocks and springs that are about 10 percent stiffer than on the GLS, and larger anti-roll bars--24 mm (versus 23) in front, and 14 mm (versus 12) in back. The GT also has alloys, which may or may not help. These little enhancements add up to "a taut, responsive feel that doesn’t make for a harsh ride but is most appreciated on twisty roads or your favorite cloverleaf interchange" (from a Road & Track review).

    Re the Focus' new dashboard, it is a lot more boring than the old design but also cleaner. Apparently Ford figured they would be better off with more buttoned-down exterior and interior styling to appeal to a wider range of potential buyers.
  • dispencer1dispencer1 Member Posts: 489
    You can get some pretty nice cars -fully equipped - with 25-28k at Hertz. A Camry is only around 15k.
    They offer a Focus, too, but I rented one last year and drove it around North Carolina on all types of roads. The standard engine is woefully underpowered. It feels peppy in town - lots of acceleration - but it is not the engine to have if you want to pass someone in the 50-75MPH range. If I only had 10-15k to invest in a car I would certainly look around for last year's compact rather than a new subcompact. I'd also stay away from an Aveo. Chevy badged foreign cars come and go but Toyota, Hyundai, and Nissan will be around for a long time and the warranty on the Aveo is lousy compared to a Hyundai.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why buy a used car that has been through who knows what kind of abuse, when you can get a really good new car with a 10 year warranty (and a new-car smell) for a little over $10k? I would never buy a former rental car. Who knows how they have been abused? One thing is for sure, the initial renters had no thought of following the manufacturer's break-in procedures. I would consider buying a used car if I knew the owner and knew how it had been treated and what kind of maintenance it had, but not a rental. The "certified" used cars with an extended warranty might be worth looking at too.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Some of the certified pre-owned programs are truly outstanding, definitely worth considering. I would NEVER even think about purchasing a former rental vehicle- in fact, thats one of the beauty of CarFax.com. We all know that rentals are mercilessly treated, regardless of how well they are maintained. Why risk it?

    ~alpha
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    i'm sure the studies couldn't justify it, but it's too bad ford didn't have one dash design for the zx cars, and one for the sedan/wagon models. the customer demographics are somewhat different.
    the zx cars appeal to a younger customer. i just don't think the volume is there overall, for two designs.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    <We all know how mercilessly rentals are treated>
     
      My first job was cleaning and maintaining rental cars. I have news for you, as a car mechanic Ive seen how mercilessily people treat their OWN cars which is often incredibly bad. I dont see any difference at all, on average. MostlyI wouldnt buy a rental because they want too much for it, at least IME.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm more concerned how renters treat the engine, moreso than the pieces I can see. And yes, rental car companies seem to charge a premium for their cars which I don't think is deserved.
  • dispencer1dispencer1 Member Posts: 489
    I agree, it would be stupid to purchase a rental car that was a low cost car to begin with. The difference in price isn't worth it. I bought a 2001 Malibu LS from Hertz which has been dependable and bought a 2003 Certified Cadillac that was an Alamo rental car with no problems at all. I probably won't buy another rental car, especially a base model Cadillac. A one owner trade in with at least some options -like the Bose radio - is about the same price and you can talk to the former owner, but I would purchase it from a Cadillac dealer and it would have to be certified with the 6 year 100k 0 deductible warranty. I have friends who buy Grand Prixs and Grand Ams from Enterprise and have always had good luck with them. They always purchase the Enterprise extended warranty, too. Face it, a used car is a used car. At least the ex-rental car gets oil changes and maintenance checks. The only reason I buy a used car is to get something better than I can get new for X dollars -like a year old Century or Malibu LS for less than the price of a new Aveo. Some people like sub-compacts. I don't, and if I only had 10-15k to buy a car I'd get a used midsize.
  • kmagkmag Member Posts: 98
    I have had absolutely zero major problems with the former rentals and fleet cars I have owned. My parents have had several also and hevent had any issues.

    At least you know that the oil has been changed a few times. I would wonder more about the late model one owner inexpensive car. Why is it on the market and what kind of care has it had? If it is not for sale by a private owner you may never know. And maybe that off-lease creampuff was driven by the owners teenagers. If you know any upper middle class parents you know that many of them will get brand new cars for their kids.

    Avoiding a former rental isnt as obvious as not going to Budget or Hertz to buy your late model used car. You might not know if you dont do some research. Virtually every car I looked at last year turned up as a "fleet" vehicle on Carfax, even several with a 5 speed which surprised me. These can be former rentals. My 99 Mystique was such a car. I bought it at a L-M dealer, Carfax said leased fleet vehicle, but I found a small rental car sticker sticker on the rear door window.

    I think there are great bargains in one and two year old cars at all ends of the market. I got that Mystique for 60% of the new sticker price. I have made similar deals for all the late model cars I have bought over the years. If I had the money Id buy new all the time but I do not so I look for the bargain, and getting a car with a year or two of warranty is great. I think the "certified" stuff is mostly worthless unless the car is out of warranty, and even then it isnt worth the extra money the dealer tends to charge for it.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    On what basis is the "certified" stuff mostly worthless?

    ~alpha
  • dispencer1dispencer1 Member Posts: 489
    My 2003 Deville was an ex-Alamo rental car with 30,000 miles on it. It was delivered in October of 2002 and I bought it in January of 2004. The price was $26,000. The rental car company bought it for $36,000 and you or I would have paid $39,000-$44,000 for it new. The Cadillac dealer would "certify" it for $1,000. This included a 100k 6 year (from Oct, 2002) 0 deductible GM Protection Plan warranty.The same one that costs about $2200 if you just go in to buy it. The 30,000 mile service was done and the car had four new Michelin tires (same as the original equipment tires). The car looked absolutely new. The factory warranty is 48/50. I think I got a good deal. Other "certified" cars from GM don't offer much - 3 months,3,000 miles - but other manufacturers have good certification warranties -mostly powertrain ones. I would buy another "certified" car in a heartbeat, especially a used Cadillac.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree on buying used to get a better car for the money. In a few years, once all the kids are out of the house, I'll (finally) get a 3 Series and I expect I'll get one that's a few years old, a BMW certified unit, to save a ton of money.
  • kmagkmag Member Posts: 98
    I would ask, What do you get in a "certified" late model, inexpensive used car as opposed to a non-certified car?

    Any used car should be inspected by the dealer and worn tires or brakes should be replaced, or at least noted. Most used cars I have looked at have come with an inspection sheet telling me the % wear on the tires and brake pads. The Cavalier my wife bought last year was certified, but we didnt even get the sheet listing what was inspected. I wasnt on top of this purchase as I normally am or I would have asked for it. Also we had to pay extra to have the mfg warranty extended to 50K.

    Maybe on a 26K Cadillac there is more margin for the dealer to install new tires and bump up the warranty. Remember this is a discussion of low end sedans and the profit margins are probably much slimmer. I wouldn't normally consider a one year old car with 30K miles, but if I did I might wonder about the need to replace the original Michelins so soon.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Despite the fact that you've failed to answer my question, I'll answer yours:

    Even with a carfax, you still dont know how the previous owner treated the car. With a manufacturer's certified used program, you have basically an insurance policy of a very attractive extended warranty (some more than others- Honda's is particularly outstanding given the cars very mediocre new warranty, for example), and the manufacturer's certification that the car was in great shape to begin with- having passed a thorough inspection. The mfr. isnt going to certify a car that it feels is substantially likely to need repairs, after all. Additionally, many certified used programs offer roadside support for the life of the warranty, and I belive that most are transferrable to subsequent owners, easing any further resale.

    To me, a 3 year certified used car (under a good program) with a clean carfax is just as safe as buying a new car, and backy's plan to get a certified used BMW sounds like a great one, especially given the so-so repair record of the make.

    Im not saying its perfect for everyone, but to me- it seems the SAFEST way to save a bunch of cash vs. buying new.

    ~alpha
  • dispencer1dispencer1 Member Posts: 489
    I agree totally. It is important to check out the "certified" cars though. A NM dealer (who has the reputation of simply washing a car that comes from the auction and sticking it on the lot) was selling a "certified" 2000 Park Avenue for a normal price (cars can be certified if they have less than 60k miles). This one had as I recall around 48k on it. The power seat didn't work, the engine ticked when idling, it felt like every bolt in the car has been turned a half turn back - car rattled and felt like the struts were shot. It was, however, "certified" but unlike the Cadillac had a super generous 3 month 3k extended warranty. I bought my Cadillac in Ft. Worth, 400 miles away. I certainly wouldn't care if a GM (non-Cadillac) car was certified since the warranty is so lousy but Honda, Toyota, and most of the other manufacturers have great extended warranties for "certified" cars. It just pays to check out any used car and not jump to any conclusions by the fact that it is "certified". I think the program for Cadillac and the other manufacturers is great. I like extended warranties anyway and here is a chance to get one without haggling over the price of it. As for ex-rental cars most of the year old used cars on a dealer's lot recardless of size ARE rental cars. A CARFAX check will verify that.
  • lngtonge18lngtonge18 Member Posts: 2,228
    I'll put my 2 cents in on how I rate these sub 15k cars. I will be taking into consideration opinion on design.

    15. Dodge Neon - loud unrefined engine, ultra cheap looking interior, no power rear windows, not very comfortable though roomy, unfinished look to the rear, poor rear visibility. in desperate need of a redesign.

    14. Saturn Ion - can't stand the styling inside and out. seats are uncomfortable and the car isn't as roomy as it should be. acceleration is also a disappointment with the auto. expensive when features are added. Ride is good; handling, engine, and mileage are competent.

    13. Kia Rio - good cheap basic transportation with great warranty. comfortable driver's seat. doors are tinny sounding, small back seat, low fuel economy, not much style, adequate acceleration though loud when pushed. standard 14" tires.

    12. Toyota Echo - Much better looking on the outside then previously but still a tad odd. Don't like the interior style, the fabrics are cheap, door sounds too tinny to be a Toyota. spunky engine with great fuel economy. poor stability on the highway.

    11. Suzuki Aerio - funky looks on the sedan. hatch looks much better. room and comfort is top notch. good stereo. good crash test scores though poor bumpers. cheap interior pieces with way too odd styling (about to be fixed for 05). tinny doors that buzz constantly. so-so handling and the ride is a tad too firm. the 145 horse 2.0 feels slower then the 135 horse Elantra and is also a very rough feeling slow to rev engine (haven't driven the 2.3 but I doubt much changed). low mileage. poor paint quality and fit and finish.

    10. Chevy Aveo - great looking inside and out. comfortable. expensive msrp. too short warranty. haven't driven one so not sure how well it drives. fuel economy is competent but low for size. unknown reliability. this car has the potential of moving up the scale.

    9. Suzuki Forenza - attractive styling inside and out. great fit and finish. shimmering paint. great price. good warranty. dismal engine and fuel economy. unknown reliability. put a better engine in it and this car has potential.

    8. Chevy Cavalier - exterior styling still looks good on the coupe after all these years. reasonably roomy with a big car feel. strong engine. cheap though semiattractive and ergonomic interior. uncomfortable front seats. cheap tires squeal at every turn and handling is just ok. low fit and finish and poor crash ratings. solid reliable powertrain. smooth responsive automatic and comfortable ride. competent mileage. big rebates and cheap financing.

    7. Hyundai Accent - great basic transportation. attractive styling. great warranty. comfortable seats. peppy though loud when pushed. better mileage then the Rio but still too low. tires are too small. Comfy ride and adequate handling. solid sound to the doors and relatively quiet on the highway. reasonably roomy considering size. side airbags standard, along with good safety scores. good reliability. rebates.

    6. Honda Civic - roomy, comfortable, great fuel economy and crash test scores, good reliability and resale, better handling then Corolla but a busier ride. buzzy sounding on the highway, low power, low warranty, low feature content, high prices, bland styling.

    5. Ford Focus - great handling, fun to drive, comfortable ride, great power in pzev form, pleasing style inside and out, roomy, competent mileage, good crash ratings, big rebates. uncomfortable driver's seat, questionable reliability, build quality and resale.

    3.(tie) Toyota Corolla - roomy, comfortable seats and ride, great mileage power and crash scores, good resale and reliability, attractive mini-Lexus interior style, better warranty then Honda. funky driving position, loud engine, subpar handling, bland exterior, expensive and low feature content.

    3.(tie) Mitsubishi Lancer - roomy, good looking inside and out, comfortable yet composed ride, good handling, good reliability, solid expensive sounding thunk to doors and excellent fit and finish, quiet at idle and on highway, good crash ratings, rebates. low resale, buzzy sound quality when floored, not the best mileage, a few cheap interior pieces, driver's seat a little uncomfortable.

    3.(tie) Mazda3 - sporty, great handling, attractive on the outside, audilike on the inside, neat options, powerful engines. high price, low standard equipment, firm ride.

    1. Hyundai Elantra/Kia Spectra - great duo. awesome price, standard feature list, warranty; good reliability on the Elantra, pleasant styling inside and out, great fit and finish, good power and ride, roomy, comfy seats, competent mileage. mixed crash results, not the best handler.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    I made the mistake of doing a google search for mini cars and got a snootfull of the cars availible to Europeans. Oh wouldnt a one liter ECHO be nice or better yet the 1.4 liter diesel. EVERYBODY makes diesel engines for their cars...even Jaguar! Its such a shame you cant get a mini here in the US!
  • kmagkmag Member Posts: 98
    Alpha you said:"With a manufacturer's certified used program, you have basically an insurance policy of a very attractive extended warranty."

    As I pointed out, this was not true for the Cavalier we bought, thats not what I found for most cars I have looked at, and so it is not always the case.

    If there is paperwork that the car is certified by a factory backed program and includes the things you are describing, thats great. But I would expect a higher asking price on a certified car, and if I am buying a car that is still under warranty I would have to judge whether it is worth the extra cost.

    "Certified" means whatever the dealer wants it to mean. It could mean what you are talking about. It could also mean they want to ask a higher price while doing nothing more than the normal inspection-if that. This is the meaning I have seen more often than not.

    Here is a real-life example. Last year my sister purchased a 1999 Toyota 4runner, supposedly a "cerified" vehicle, from a Toyota dealer in Cincinnati. This thing cost 18K, so I was glad that it was ceritified when she told me about it. I thought that would be a good thing since she has normally only bought new cars. Then she found that the dealer had lied, and had told people that used cars were ceritfied and had not actually done anything to certify them. After much complaining and, I believe, threatening legal action, she got the certification along with some no-cost maintenance that was needed. Even so she had to have a brake job this spring and pay for it out of her pocket.

    Im sure that this was a not a typical occurance, so dont flame me for knocking all dealers, but it shows that "certified" can mean anything the dealer says.
  • mazdaman3mazdaman3 Member Posts: 12
    I would love to have more diesel options here in the US. Great fuel economy and decent power in a small car would be nice. esp. with gas prices going no where but up.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Agreed- certified can mean anything the dealer wants it to. However, its not as hidden as you make it sound. Its more than simple to tell, for example, if a vehicle is manufacturer certified or dealer certified. My primary argument is talking about manufacturer's certifications programs. The picking of vehicles under such programs are not hit or miss. Your experience is just that- whether it was the dealer's fault for not providing materials or your own. On the whole, a manufacturer's certification program, if you are willing to pay a very fair premium for it, is the safest way to go. Most of those programs also provide CarFax Reports, but if not, as long as you've got one, buying used is 99% as good as buying new.

    Brochures are available from the manufactures who provide certification programs, about their certification programs, that detail exactly what should have been done. My guess is that your sisters 4Runner was not mfr. certified, because it would be pretty tough for a dealer to pull off a claim about Toyota's certification process without paperwork presented to her, detailing the checkpoints, car specs, warranty etc. And the saying still holds-"Caveat Emptor".

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Great list, you obviously put a lot of thought into it. The biggest surprises for me are the Lancer over the Civic and the relatively high placing of the Accent and Cavalier (and I assume Sunfire)--but that's what is great about this board--the chance to give our opinions on the whole spectrum of low-end sedans.
  • dispencer1dispencer1 Member Posts: 489
    If a car does not have a manufacturer's certification and if you do not get the documented extended warranty that comes with a manufacturer's certified vehicle it is NOT certified regardless of what a dealer tells you. Cadillac, for one is absolutely serious about its certification program and the warranty that goes with it is the standard GM Protection Plan Bumper to Bumper 100k, 6 year 0 deductible warranty. Most year old Cadillacs ARE certified and the price ( I followed price closely in January because I was shopping for one) didn't really differ much between private owner sales, used car dealer sales, and "certified" new car dealer sales. I wouldn't worry about all the other GM cars including Chevvy. The "certified" warranty is 3 months or 3,000 miles -the absolutely worst "certified" car warranty in the business. I'd prefer to look for a private owner sale, a car from Hertz or Enterprise, or a creampuff at a dealer's regardless of whether it is certified or not. In summary - we are talking about a manufacturer's certified program that includes an extended warranty.
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    The big problem with diesels is they can&#146;t meet emissions in some states, like California and New York, because of our high sulfur fuel (up to 500 PPM). That&#146;s going to change in 2006 when all 50 states will require ULSD of no more than 15 PPM. I was at my local Ford dealer last week and the sales manager told me that they would most likely be selling the Focus diesel in late 2006. He said that the specs on the Focus diesel with a CVT show it getting over 50 MPG. I would give almost anything for a car that got 50 MPG right about now.
  • baber1baber1 Member Posts: 49
    I read that Hyundai sells the Elantra in Europe with a 2 liter turbo diesel with about 115HP. I wonder what kind of mileage it gets. I wonder if they will export it to the USA or not.
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    If gas prices keep going up I think you will see a lot of turbo diesel cars starting in the fall of 2006.
  • lovetosavegaslovetosavegas Member Posts: 73
    Sign me up :)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Next months August issue of CR will have full road tests of the Chevy Aveo, the new Kia Spectra, the Mazda 3, Scion xA and xB, and Suzuki Forenza. Also, there will be a comparison of the advantages/disadvantages of the manual transmission vs. the modern automatic.

    Should prove interesting. CR already had a preview of the Mazda 3 in an earlier issue, and it looks like its poised to take over as the class leader. Formerly, this had been the Ford Focus, after its reliability improved to average, and before that, the Civic.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That will be an interesting issue, but I don't know why CR insists on directly comparing cars in different classes. For example, they compared the Accent to a group of much more expensive and larger compacts and, naturally, the Accent didn't fare well in the comparison. So here they are comparing three compact sedans to three small hatchbacks (if the Aveo they test is a hatchback). The xB isn't that small in volume but small in other ways, including engine displacement. I think it would be more fair to compare the Spectra, Mazda3i, and Forenza and in a separate review compare the Aveo and Scions.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Who knows, we might see the Aveo HB and the Scions addressed more separately. But in the scheme of things, they're all transportation at the lower end of the spectrum, compact models that differ primarily in execution, but that are clearly distinct from the class above vehicles.

    Im not sure why you say the Accent didnt fare well- in that particular issue (March 2003), the Accent acheived the second highest rating of the vehicles tested- just below the Aerio, but well above the Neon, the brand new ION, and the aged Cavalier. In fact, CR cited that the Accent was a good deal, fine basic transportation given its higher score than the more expensive models. If you were to separate out the Accent, you'd be left with a uselessly small category- the Accent, Rio, Aveo sedan, and the on-its-way-out ECHO. EVEN here, in recent posts, said cars have been included by many in their personal overall rankings, so why shouldnt CR do the same?

    About the Scions- my biggest peeve are the tiny engines that are used, which do a good job of offering efficiency, but what seems to be a paucity of power. However, MT, in this months issue, scooted the xA manual to 60 in just 8.8 seconds, which surprised me. Id really like to see a Car and Driver "street start" on an xA 5M, which would give a better idea of what consumers like you and I could achieve in everyday driving.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was referring to the Accent's overall score in its "group", in which CR places it far down the list. Beating the Neon, ION, and Cavalier is nothing to brag about IMO.

    CR groups cars by type. For example, they compare 4-cylinder family cars together and 6-cylinder family cars together, as in the May issue. I just think they could do a better job separating the very small cars from the compacts that can sell for $5000+ more.
  • glueguyglueguy Member Posts: 1
    Going to be purchasing a low end sedan for my mother-in-law later this year. I'll be buying it in the Lansing, MI area where she resides. I know that some of the cars in this class list ABS as an option, but which ones are actually available on the lot? When I bought a 97 Sentra for her, I had to go nearly 400 miles out to southern Ohio to find even one. Just wondering if anyone has some information for me. Thanks --Ron
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Mazda3i includes ABS in its "safety" package, and I found quite a few cars with that package when I last looked at the 3i in the spring. More Elantras have that option than they used to but it is still pretty rare in my area. The Focus or Corolla might be other good choices to find ABS.
  • georgia00georgia00 Member Posts: 27
    If you had to choose between the Lancer, Ion, and Elantra, which would you choose? I am looking at these because of the large rebates. I know that Ford Focus has a $3,000 rebate, but am afraid of all the problems I have read about it.

    Also, is Mitsubishi the only one of these who does not support the Lemon Law?

    Thanks.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Personally I'd go with the Elantra (and did!). The Lancer IMO is not a better car than the Elantra, is not any less expensive, and Mitsubishi has some very serious problems right now financially and legally (lawsuits in Japan re liability for some deaths of drivers of their trucks). The ION has some good points (rustproof body panels, good ride and handling) but is not a satisfying overall package for me. I encourage you to look at the Focus. Its reliability has improved a lot since its early years, and it is has one of the best combinations of ride and handling of any small car. Personally I like the Elantra better due to its comfortable seating position, value, and warranty, but I think the Focus is worth looking at. You should also look at the "all new" 2004 Spectra (not to be confused with the "old" 2004 Spectra). It's a very nice car, built on the Elantra platform, has great safety features (side airbags and curtains, 4-wheel disc brakes), and is priced competitively with the other cars you are looking at.
  • georgia00georgia00 Member Posts: 27
    Actually, I went back to read abou the Focus SE and only read two negative ratings 1.4 and 4.6. Someone said they had problems with car from day #1. But that could happen with any car even Toyota. The $3,000 rebate is very attractive. I am going to research the Focus some more on other websites.

    I will keep checking here too to see what anyone else has to say in response to my question. Thanks.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Lemon laws have nothing to do with whether a particular manufacturer (Mitsubishi in your case) "supports" them or not. They are specific laws enacted by individual states, and any manufacturer who sells in that state has to abide by the rules of the particular lemon law of that state if it is invoked. Each state's lemon laws can vary somewhat, and I am not sure even that every state has a lemon law.

    That being said, I would stay away from Mitsubishi as at this point it is questionable whether they will stay in business. They have some real problems.

    Focus has the advantage at this point of quite a few years production and a lot of attention to correcting initial defects. I wouldn't hesitate to consider one if I was in the market.
  • georgia00georgia00 Member Posts: 27
    I see the Focus rebate expires June 30. There are still a few of them around. So, as long as I can find one, will the dealers give me a rebate?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    They will if you buy before July 1! 8-) Actually, it's unlikely Ford will get rid of the Focus rebate entirely on July 1. There is always a chance it could go down, but it could increase too as the year-end closeout approaches. As Dirty Harry once said, "How lucky do you feel?"
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I think the easy choice is the Elantra- its simply the most car for the money. Side airbags are a big plus, as is the gutsy, if somewhat thirsty, motor. IMO, it rides well, is roomy, slick looking, and has a great warranty to boot.

    The rebate on the Focus is most likely on leftover 2004s. The 2005s are out, and are not as heavily discounted. If youre really strongly in favor of that car, you might want to act sooner than later.

    ~alpha
  • jprybajpryba Member Posts: 201
    I have an 02 Elantra, and I've had some experience dealing with the infamous steering wheel shimmy at highway speeds. (Balancing and a rotation have fixed part of it, but I'm still thinking about dumping the car, especially if a new set of tires doesn't fix the problem.)

    I was wondering if any of the other low end sedans discussed here have the same steering wheel shimmy issue. I'm going to guess the answer is no for some (or most) of them. So, what is it about the Elantra that makes it more sensitive to this than the competition?

    I hope Hyundai fixes this for the 06 Elantra -- and I also hope that the new Spectra (based on the Elantra) doesn't have the issue either.
  • georgia00georgia00 Member Posts: 27
    Do any of the Ford Focus 04 models have back seat headrests? I test drove a Focus SE yesterday and was surprised to see it did not have back headrests. The engine is not that peppy but okay.

    Is it true that Ford cars take a long time to warm up or they will not perform? I read on another board where one owner commented on that.
  • georgia00georgia00 Member Posts: 27
    I am still thinking about a Mitsubishi Lancer. What happens if you buy a car and the company goes out of business? Is the warranty not honored, etc. I see you mentioned that Mitsubishi is experiencing problems.
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