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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    Well, safety (or lack of it) hasn't seemed to hold up Kia sales too much over the last few years. They may be the absolute worst, but that doesn't mean I'm not rooting for them. Every good car that comes out, forces another car to be better. Kia's current offerings aren't really forcing anyone to do anything.

     

    I would rather have no side airbag and a GOOD, than a side airbag and a POOR. I would never buy or recommend a current Sonata or Optima to anyone, side airbags or not.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    We have yet to see how the Spectra's SABs and SACs affect the IIHS side impact tests. It could have a good result there.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "I would rather have no side airbag and a GOOD, than a side airbag and a POOR"

     

    I understand this, but the fact of the matter is that there is no car that has gotten a "Good" or even "Acceptable" without a side airbag of some sort. However, among "POOR" performers, I'd rather have one with a side airbag than without. That said, its not that hard nowadays to find a good value mid-size car with excellent side impact protection. The Accord LX and Camry LE are $20,900 and $21,200 with the equipment, and are very well rounded packages.

     

    Yes, I realize this is a low-end car thread. To that point, I think you'll probably be wisest to choose the likes of a Mazda 3 or Toyota Corolla (whose transaction prices are lower than the 3s comparably equipped). The Corolla LE autos in my area that are sold with SAB/SAC also have ABS, cruise, 6 disc CD, and sticker at $17,650. Thats still a little high, but I feel a tremendous value. The Mazda 3i similarly equipped is about $18,000, and would be my personal preference over the Corolla, because of its more sporting/aggressive nature, similar economy, and more youthful styling. Not that I'm any kind of authority, but the Mazda 3i and Corolla LE are my personal picks for best in class at $18,000 and under.

     

    The Spectras frontal offset results pull it out of the running where safety is concerned, IMO, and it continues to be difficult to find one in my area with ABS. So even at $14,500 with SAB/SAC, the value equation is called into question, because if you value the safety aspect, you're not getting much frontal impact return.

     

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Don't forget, the Civic (available for under $15k) has excellent frontal and side crash scores and is available with SABs as a low-cost option. Also the Elantra has standard SABs and has good IIHS and NHTSA crash scores and is widely available starting at about $11,000 well-equipped. The Aerio is another car with good crash scores (an IIHS "best pick") and an under-$15K price.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I think that $15k was the threshold they established for this thread. That said I would also pick a Mazda 3 for a compact sedan under $18k.

     

    I don't think the Spectra did particularly well on the NCAP's side impact test, even with side airbags - loser all around, even with side airbags.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The Civic is off my list because you cant get ABS unless you go with the EX trim line, and the side airbags are pretty useless in the Civic... they arent curtains, so forget about any protection for the rear passengers' heads, and they arent combo bags, so they dont protect the heads of the front seat occupants either.

     

    The Civic's side airbag option is cheap because it offers added protection only to the chest of the driver and front passenger. Its the same type of moderately outdated bag that you could have gotten on a 98 Corolla, if you wanted it.

     

    ~alpha
  • brihambriham Member Posts: 33
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Neither the tC or Sentra Spec V is a "low end" car, at least as defined for this discussion (under $15k). The xA and xB are Scion's low-end cars, and of course the Spectra comes in lower-priced models. Personally I think there are several low-end cars that surpass the Sentra (with its standard 1.8L engine anyway), e.g. Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Focus, Mazda3i. I haven't driven the Cobalt yet so I don't know how it compares to other cars.
  • brihambriham Member Posts: 33
    Good point on the pricing. In the true low end I really like the styling of the Mazda3. The 4 door is essentially the Volvo S40.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree with you, I think the Mazda3 is the style leader of the current low-end cars, and except for it being a little pricey with popular options it would be my top choice in the low-end cars.
  • jojomonkeyboyjojomonkeyboy Member Posts: 43
    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/102471/article.html

     

    Accent, Rio, and Aveo are all on there.

     

    I'm surprised though that the Accent has slightly worse residual value than a Rio?

     

    Now that the Lanos is gone, I'd think the Rio would be leading the pack (so to speak) in having the very worse residual value.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In the real world, the Accent does have a higher resale value than the Rio. I don't know where Edmunds gets their data, but it doesn't reflect what I see.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    Note that the residual value percentages are based on the national True Market Value® (TMV) price, plus typical options and destination charge.

     

    Base Aveo w/ Automatic TMV+destination = $12,027

    $12,027 x 25% = $3006.75

     

    Base Aveo w/ Automatic Actual Price = $8500

    $3006.75/$8500 = 35.4%

     

    35.4% is significantly better than the 29% that the 10th worst cars received. Although pretty short of the 47.5% that the 10th best car gets.

     

    I think that knowing the estimated residual value of your car can help you know what kind of deal you are getting on it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You raise an excellent point. Published residual values are based on MSRP (or in Edmunds' case TCO), not on actual purchase price. Also, these percentages can be misleading. For example, if you buy a car such as an Aveo for $7000 (which is possible based on advertised prices in my area in the past few months), and after four years the value is only $2500, you have lost only $4500 in depreciation after four years. That means if you bought a more expensive car, say a Civic DX or Corolla CE, it would have to retain over 60% of its value after four years to take fewer dollars out of your pocket than the less expensive car.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    ...and that's not even counting the fun you could have or the money you could make with the $5k you save up front.

     

    I wouldn't buy the Rio - even though that $3995 was the craziest price I've ever seen. But I think the Aveo and Accent are two great bottom feeders.
  • nornenorne Member Posts: 136
    what about toyota echo?
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I really like the Echo (looks aside), but it seems like new ones generally cost a lot more than new Accents and Aveos, and lose quite a bit of there value. They get better gas mileage by far, but the Accent and Aveo are available for thousands of dollars less and have better crash scores.

     

    However, if I was buying one of these cars 3 years old, it would be an Echo.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    driving it. Did you guys hear of the ridiculous ad a poster talked about here on Edmunds(it might have been on this thread)a few weeks ago where, if you bought a Sorento, that particular Kia dealership would throw in a Kia Rio sedan for free?

     

    I don't know about you guys but if I already wanted a Sorento I would snap that one right up. You'd probably be responsible for T&L and who knows what other tax. Then you could turn around and sell the Rio for at least $5,000 just putting an ad in the paper. If you worded your ad carefully and could prove it only had 50 miles or whatever you should be able to make at least $5,000 in that deal, maybe more, eh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
    All the Charleston South Carolina KIA dealers were in on this one. If you bought one of their new Sorento, Sedona, Amanti or Optima's you received a Brand New Rio free. The sale ran from August until January 1 if I remember correctly. The radio commercial had people talking about how they loved their new what ever and how they got the Rio for free... Here in the St Louis area Dean Hyundai is giving away a used Hyundai with each new Hyundai sold... The ad says Two for the price of one. while supplies last.
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I wonder if you would have to pay some sort of gift-tax on the Rio? Was it considered a purchase?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    ...toyota echo: good name; is there anything there?.. there?.. there..? just kidding, but couldn't pass it up.

    saw a tc for the first time today. looked like a bad attempt at a honda civic 2 door.

    have an '04 zts. it's a lot of car for the money. 8k miles, zero problems. it gets the basics right: ride, handling, steering, and stopping.

    mine has lots of extras.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    and offers the most for your money out of the three Scions. I like it's styling-generally it seems most people are non-plussed by the styling of the small hatchback coupe. I read one review of it this weekend where they said that it had a good blend of ride and handling and good pep from the engine. BTW, by the agreed-upon "Low End Sedans" thread cost guidelines($15,000 or lower) the Scion tC can be discussed here in this thread...at length if need be!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm missing something. I thought the tC lists for over $16k. And that it's a hatchback coupe, not a sedan.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    or thereabouts, before it's destination charge. So, yeah, it rings up to $16,465 for the manual trannied model. I guess that pushes it out of here, also it is a hatch coupe not a sedan. Yikes.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I can't stand the tC, and it doesn't really belong in this forum. It definitely qualifies as:

     

    1) Most boring Scion

    2) Car that drives most like a Corolla coupe

    3) Toyota with the most disappointing gas mileage
  • nodulenodule Member Posts: 118
    Does anyone know if the 2005 Elantra GLS

    automatic has a fuel filter that needs to be

    changed, or is this item maint free??
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You probably want to ask questions like this in the Elantra Owner's discussions to get better response, but yes, the Elantra has a fuel filter that needs to be changed periodically, like every other car that I know of. The replacement schedule is every 52,500 miles or 42 months (wierd).
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    cars usually need their fuel filters replaced. I believe my Sportage 4x4 needs it's replaced every 30,000 miles.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    but people who have describe it's ride like that of a Toyota Camry, or even a Solara, if memory serves me correctly. Like the big 'ole boaty Toyota? Come on, it's small and heavy but it rides that smoothly?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I have owned a Toyota Camry, and the last thing in the world I would want would be another car that rides like it. That said, I did not think the tC was as smooth as the Camry.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    what do you have against the attractive new hatchback coupe that Scion is calling tC? This is by far the best Scion model yet and I don't see how retro-Celica looks combined with a solid powertrain and modern interior can be a bad deal for $16,465. That is for the manual tranny, mind you. Most every complaint from those who own them are very petty noise or clikkity-clackety type issues regarding the sunroof or dash, etc. The powerplant is pretty decent for a small bodied(yet kinda heavy)rig like that.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    I have nothing against the car itself, it's just that there are so many better choices out there...

     

    For the record, I think the xA and xB are great cars, I like them much better than the tC.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    I do like the xA RS 1.0 and to be released in summer 2005 2.0(in blue color instead of red). That car retails for $15,200, fits in the confines of this discussion's parameters and looks great with it's sport tire and wheel package.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    Absolutely - I am firmly on the xA bandwagon (and xB). The 1.0 looks great, I bet that is a fun car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How do two of the best low-end cars compare to the newest low-end car on the block, the Chevy Cobalt? The Mazda3i is generally considered to be one of the best small cars. It's tops on Edmunds.com's list of under-$15k cars and also tops CR's small-car list. It's also highly regarded by C/D. The Hyundai Elantra is highly ranked by Edmunds.com (2nd in their most recent small-car comparo), C/D (also 2nd), and CR ("very good"). Personally I consider the Mazda3i and the Elantra GLS 5-door to be at the top of all the low-end cars. But what about this new Cobalt? I drove all three on the same roads to find out how GM's newest small car would fare against two of the best small cars from Japan and Korea.

     

    Cobalt - I wanted to drive a 5-speed, but none was available. So I drove a base sedan with automatic, sticker just over $17k with a few options such as ABS and side air curtains. First the good news: this is NOT the Cavalier. It's light-years ahead of that car. The car is rock-solid. The ride is supple, easing over bumps without harshness. I think the ride is actually better than that of a $30,000 Honda Accord Hybrid that I also drove today. The electronic steering is accurate. The handling is fine for a low-end car with 15" tires--not top of class, but way ahead of the Cavalier. The dashboard is also leaps and bounds ahead of the Cavalier, with a crisp, modern face that could have been lifted out of, well, a Kia Spectra (but hey, that car has a nice dash!). The engine has a muted growl, not unpleasant, under acceleration. Acceleration is adequate with the automatic. But I didn't push it, since it was a brand-new tester, so it might be capable of much better performance when floored. I would have liked to try it with the Getrag 5-speed. The car was quiet inside, except for the engine growl and a little wind noise around the A pillars or mirrors at 65 mph. It was noticeably quieter than the Mazda3i (because of tire noise on the Mazda). The trunk looked pretty roomy, with gas struts holdling the lid and a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat.

     

    OK, now the not-so-good news. The nice-looking dash begins to look and feel cheap on closer inspection. It's all hard surfaces, no padding as on the Elantra. The Mazda3's dash is hard plastic too, but it's much more interesting hard plastic than on the Cobalt. The dash and interior trim on the upper-level models is a bit spiffier than on the base sedan I drove, with some metallic or wood inserts depending on trim level. But along with the hard side panels and the cheap-feeling HVAC and radio controls, and lack of niceties such as a center console with armrest, I got the overall impression of cost containment even though it was a step up from the Cavalier.

     

    Another issue is the driver's seat. It has a height-adjustable driver's seat, which is good. But it's a single-lever type, similar to that on the Mazda3. So when the seat goes up, the front of the seat goes too low for my taste. I much prefer the dual-knob height adjusters in cars like the Elantra and Forenza.

     

    The back seat was perhaps the biggest disappointment. The Cobalt is an all-new car, so here was the chance for GM to make a car that was fully competitive with the best small cars on the market. And in some ways, especially in ride and NVH, they succeeded. But the rear seat is tight. With the driver's seat adjusted for me (5'9.5"), the back seat was very uncomfortable. My knees were sticking up in the air, legs off the front of the cushion. My toes were wedged under the front seat. The seatback wasn't comfortable. Be sure to check out the back seat if you regularly carry anyone other than small children back there.

     

    Yet another issue is paint. The car on the showfloor was silver. It had perhaps the dullest looking paint finish I have seen in recent years. And this was the showfloor car--so you'd think they'd have it as shined up as it could be. The cars in the lot were messed up from recent snow, so it was hard to tell if the one on the showfloor was an abberation.

     

    BTW, there was a Suzuki Reno S sitting next to the Cobalt on the showfloor. The Reno had a far nicer interior than the Cobalt (base model), many more features (e.g. power locks/windows/mirrors, 8-speaker MP3 stereo, and SABs), a proper seat height adjuster, glossy paint, and a far more comfortable back seat. It also cost about $1000 less. Interesting product placement by the dealership...

     

    OK, so how does the Cobalt compare to the Mazda3i and the Elantra GLS 5-door? On ride, they are all very close but give the Cobalt a slight edge because it's a bit more compliant than the other two cars. The Cobalt is the quietest of the group, with only a little wind rush intruding on highway driving. The Elantra is second, and also has a bit of wind noise on the highway. The Mazda3i is relatively quiet except for significant road noise from its 16" tires on the highway; it also has a little wind noise. On handling, the Mazda3i is tops, followed by the Elantra, but all three are quite good there. For performance, it wasn't a fair fight because the Mazda3i and Elantra had 5-speeds and the Cobalt an automatic, but the Mazda3i felt peppier than the other two cars (and it does have the most power). On braking, they all did fine; the Mazda3i and Elantra have 4-wheel disks standard, but the 3's brakes had a rough feel--could be some surface rust from sitting on the lot. For shifting, the Mazda3i has a great short-throw shifter, while the throws on the Elantra are longer (but the clutch has a nice light feel on both cars). The automatic on the Cobalt was smooth.

     

    For interior quality, the Mazda3i edges the Elantra because its plastic bits are spiffier than those on the Elantra. Fabric quality and feel is about the same (the GLS 5-door has a sport cloth interior unique to that model, and it's quite close to that in the Mazda). The Cobalt falls down in this area, with boring cloth and plasticky switchgear. For driver's comfort, the Elantra edges out the Mazda3, which wins points because of its telescoping steering wheel. The Cobalt is third there, although note that nicer fabrics and even leather are available in pricier trim lines. For back seat room, the Elantra has the roomiest and most comfortable rear area, with the Mazda just edging the Cobalt because of more toe space under the Mazda's front seats. The Elantra also has the convenience of a hatchback, and the Mazda is also available in that configuration albeit in a pricier trim line.

     

    How about value? Equipped as similarly as possible, with ABS, SABs and/or SACs (the Cobalt does not have SABs available), CD stereo, cruise, A/C, power windows/locks/mirrors, and 5-speed manual transmission, here's how they stack up...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Cobalt LS: MSRP $16,880, TMV $16,880 (?!?)

    Mazda3i: MSRP $17,275, TMV $16,827 (incl. alloys)

    Elantra GLS 5-door: MSRP $15,284, TMV $12,750

     

    Summary: The Cobalt is a quantum leap over the old Cavalier, and in many aspects, especially ride quality and NVH, ranks right up there with the best small cars. It also has some unique options in its class, such as OnStar. The Mazda3i costs about the same (until Chevy starts putting incentives on the Cobalt) but offers better handling, a nicer interior, and better styling (subjective). The Elantra GLS 5-door is a solid all-around performer with the best driver's and passenger comfort of the group and competitive ride, handling, and power. It has the longest warranty also. And one more little thing... it costs about $4000 less than the Cobalt or Mazda3i, comparably equipped. You could buy a lot of, uh, cobalt with that kind of money.
  • dclurkerdclurker Member Posts: 57
    Dang, backy, I don't know what you do for a living, but you should have been a professional tester. Edmunds ought to hire you as their local Twin Cities correspondent.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    TMV = MSRP is probably because it's too new & not enough data exists to aggregate real world purchases.

     

    Or people are crazy enough to pay sticker. :)

     

    Great comparison as usuaal!
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • dclurkerdclurker Member Posts: 57
    Just heard on the news that GM will begin offering incentives on the Cobalt (as well as the Pontiac G6 and Buick La Crosse). Sad when you have to do that on brand new models.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sad maybe, but expected. I noticed the MSRP of a well-equipped Cobalt LT sedan, with leather and sunroof, is over $20k. Since someone can buy an Elantra GT or a Focus with about the same equipment for thousands less, it's no wonder GM has to slap incentives on the Cobalt. It's a nice car, but not that much nicer than the Elantra and Focus (and not as nice in some respects). Also $20k gets you into mid-sized territory.
  • dclurkerdclurker Member Posts: 57
    I think it's become a game played between most manufacturers and their customers. Buyers expect incentives these days, so the makers inflate the MSRP and then give rebates to bring the price down to what it should have been in the first place.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Our local dealer had a Madza6 2004 for $15,999, and they have Mazda3 2005 for $14,999 and up, so considering the handling is great with Mazda, why not have fun, and pay less doing it? For safety ratings, I think it is 4 star for the Mazda3 and 5 stars for the Mazda6. And those needing only 2drs, and a sunroof, what's wrong with a $17,000 tC? Well maybe those dang too tall door sills, but those are hung on every car these days - yukkk! As for Cobalt, I'd say $14,ooo seems about right, if it is as much fun to drive as the Mazda3. Life is too short to drive boring cars! Well, at the least, own one fun one. Miatas don't take up too much room around the house - sneeks in anywhere. And you can wash them in your bathtub. Makes a great pet and second car ;-)

     

    Loren
  • spectramanspectraman Member Posts: 255
    Complaints Lead To Ford Focus Recall

    Rear Passenger Doors May Not Latch Properly

     

    Complete article

     

    POSTED: 10:54 am EST February 7, 2005

     

    DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. is recalling 358,857 Focus cars because their rear passenger doors may not latch properly, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and a Ford spokeswoman said Monday.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The funny thing is, it looks like the car in the accompanying photo is the Focus ZX3. No rear door latch problems there!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    the recall is for 2000 thru 2002 models only. otoh, maybe the '03 and up models aren't old enough to have the problem, yet. if i get a recall for it on my '04, i'll let you know!
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    -Great review!!

     

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I noticed Edmunds.com has published their latest list of top 10 picks under $15k. Interestingly, their top pick is NOT their Most Wanted pick for best under $15k--the Mazda3. It's the PT Cruiser--which in a recent Edmunds comparo was topped by... well, read on. Next was the Focus. Focus was 4th in Edumunds' latest comparo of small wagons, behind the PT Cruiser but also... well, read on. Then the Civic--that's understandable, in their last small-car comparo they ranked the Civic EX first, then the Elantra (the Elantra was 2nd in that same comparo). Fifth was the Spectra (makes sense, it's the cousin of the Elantra), then in SIXTH place, the Mazda3. (How fleeting is fame--and the Edmunds' editors ratings!) Then the two Scion x-cars, the Forenza wagon (a spiffy little number if you've not yet seen it), and in 10th place, the Matrix. Now, the Matrix was the top pick in Edmunds' last comparo of small wagons, beating among others the PT Cruiser and Focus! Notably absent are the Corolla and Cobalt. The Sentra, fourth in Edmunds' last small-car comparo, also didn't make the new list. It's a tough market.

     

    I suspect what they did here is look only at cars you can actually buy for under $15k MSRP, which is a different criteria than their Most Wanted list and for their comparos. Still, I see a little inconsistency. New editors, maybe?
  • muffin_manmuffin_man Member Posts: 865
    It looks to me like those cars are listed in alphabetical order...

     

    I won't comment on the ones I agree with, but:

    PT Cruiser - Truly a dog in base form. Not under $15,000 in any guise that I would be interested in. Cobalt goes here.

    Kia Spectra - Not with those crash scores, replace with the Chevy Aveo or Hyundai Accent.

    Suzuki Forenza Wagon - Interesting pick, I haven't driven one.

    Toyota Matrix - Blah. I like the Suzuki Aerio much better.
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