Low End Sedans (under $16k)

chidoro · August 2005

These cars have to be a joke. If they are really built to order, and not manufactured in the traditional sense, this car will be lucky to have sold 2,000 in year one and 500 in year two. How on earth to you have crumple zones on a car that's completely crumpled already?

mdaffron · August 2005

... in the new side-impact test with a 3,500-pound SUV!!!

It'll have to have ROOF AIRBAGS since the SUV will prolly just roll right over it!

:P

Meade

randydriver · August 2005

I you dont like the car, you dont have to buy it. Do you?

mdaffron · August 2005

But this is a forum for opinions, and we sure will share 'em!

Meade

mdaffron · August 2005

But does it say something for Mazda's safety? Read this and consider, in a head-on interstate collision between a Mazda and a Hyundai, 3 Hyundai occupants die and everyone in the Mazda survives ...

http://newscenter.ninn.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=12398

Granted, there are unanswered questions here ... namely, the model of each car and whether the Mazda's occupants were belted ... (we do know that the Hyundai's driver was belted but died, and the Mazda's driver -- belted or not -- survived). Variables or not, it looks like a real-world crash test with very different results between the two vehicles.

I'm interested in real-world crash test data, ever since I walked away from an accident in a 1992 Mazda Protege 13 years ago. That car only had motorized "passive restraint" belts -- no air bags back then -- yet the car was designed well enough to save my large body after hydroplaning at 45 mph into the rear end of a Volvo station wagon that was stopped at a traffic light.

Meade

backy · August 2005

Really not much info to go on here to draw any conclusions--except the rear passengers should have been belted. We don't even know what kind of cars--was it a Mazda6 or Millenia or 3 or what? Was it a Hyundai Accent or Elantra or pre-'06 Sonata (all 5+ year old designs) or '06 Sonata or what? What was the crash angle? Was it directly head-on or offset (i.e. aiming at the Hyundai's driver)?

alpha01 · August 2005

That is a very sad and tragic story but it says nothing about the crashworthiness of either MAKE, especially given that there are virtually no specifics.

~alpha

spectraman · August 2005

It looks like the Mazda was a white Mazda 6 model.

Link: http://www.local6.com/news/4820813/detail.html

The only info I could find about the Hyundai is that it was a rental, and it was green. The 'rental' part suggests at least a late model. I have written the Orlando Sentinel reporter to see if she can share the model type.

-SM

backy · August 2005

Notice how the passenger compartment of the Mazda is partly caved in--that must have been some crash, above the 40 mph used on the IIHS test. Note also the article said both cars were "destroyed"--no surprise there were fatalities, especially of unbelted people.

The only '05 Hyundais that come in green are the Accent (a light green) and the Sonata (a blue-ish green). The '06 Sonata comes in Aquamarine, that could look green in the right light.

alpha01 · August 2005

I'm no expert, but Backy, I agree..... that impact had to be huge, and likely, more concentrated on one area of the frontal portion of the car, for the Mazda's roof rail to buckle to the degree it did in the picture. (In the IIHS test, there was no deformation of the roof rail, and the Mazda received the highest rating for structure).

How very sad.

~alpha

mike_belknap · August 2005

That's just really too bad... very sad.
It might be worth noting that the safety cage of the 1999-2005 Hyundai Sonata experienced serious intrusion and deformation during the 40-mph offset crash test. At higher velocities (especially those on the highway), fatalities, even of unbelted occupants, could easily occure with this degree of structural instability. Couple this with poor side-impact protection, and you have a severe problem. Hopefully, the '06 model has been meaningfully improved.

Mike

carzzz · August 2005

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/50-litre.htm

explorerx4 · August 2005

i read that article at another site, and liked it. it's not totally scientific, but it's pretty good in a kind of a 'seat of the pants' way.

pat · August 2005

I want to make a note here that the Elantra and the Focus have "graduated" to a new discussion category - Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k). That new discussion ties in directly to the just-posted 2005 Economy Sedan Comparison Test.

I hope all of you will check out that article and join us in the discussion at that first link to talk about your thoughts.

For the sake of clarity, I've slightly amended the title of this discussion. Any nominations to replace the Focus and Elantra in the under $16k category here?

iluvmysephia1 · August 2005

the "What's this discussion about?" heading up there. The Kia Spectra sedan retails for $13,390 and the Kia Spectra5 retails for $15,790. The Kia Spectra5 is a "crossover" wagon/sedan/SUV combo, though, so excluding it could make sense. The Kia Spectra sedan should be included, though, and even the sportier-tuned Kia Spectra SX that has a lot of the Spectra5 tuner goodies factory-installed, can be included here. It's selling for $15,250. The Spectra SX in electric blue is looking really good to me lately.

BTW-does that mean new car prices are rising overall if we've changed the upper price limits to $16,000 now, instead of the old $15,000, for this "Low End Sedans" discussion?

pat · August 2005

Aren't all prices rising? :-)

If I left this one at the $15k upper limit and started the Economy Sedan discussion at $16k (which is the parameter defined by the article that precipitated it) we have nowhere to talk about the few that might fall in between. I couldn't change the article, so I changed the title here.

Other nominations for inclusion, anyone? Not sure we need to make this about three Kias vs. three others, but what are everyone else's thoughts?

iluvmysephia1 · August 2005

of the most interesting threads on Edmunds, through the years, actually. I think this thread could become more important as gas prices rise, too. I'm always interested in what others are thinking regarding "low-end sedans."

Anybody have any cars that they feel are being left out of this thread?

randydriver · August 2005

I think the Aveo is a very good car also......before I bought it I read an auto critics take on the car. I decided to drive the car...and check it out myself. I am glad I did because like all critics they seem to have there heads in the high end clouds....I do amature photography and I do a lot of driving in the back areas of northeast Texas and southeast Oklahoma...and the car is very comfortable to drive and the gas mileage is very good.

.

backy · August 2005

Why did you make this change?? Both the Focus and Elantra list at well under $16k. Even the top-trim Elantra GT lists at under $16k. If you are going to take these cars off this discussion, better remove the Sentra too because that car costs over $16k in some trim levels. You have just taken all the fun out of this discussion, for me anyway. Who wants to talk only about the Aveo, Rio, and ECHO all day? There are lots of other cars in the under-$16k category, including the Accent, Elantra, Focus, Cobalt, Spectra, Corolla, and even the Mazda3i (which as you will recall was Edmunds.com top pick in the under $15k sedan category). I used to like this discussion because it was the one place in Town Hall where one could discuss all the small, reasonably priced sedans. Now it appears it is being winnowed down to just a few cars. That's really too bad.

pat · August 2005

No, no, backy, you are taking this all wrong. :sick:

The Elantra and Focus have been - by virtue of the article just posted that I linked, if nothing else - elevated to a bit of a higher status. That is beyond my control. I was tasked to ensure the new discussion fit the article, so that's what I did.

I hope you will join us there to continue to discuss the Elantra, the Focus and the others in that new comparo. And I hope you will remain a participant here to discuss the vehicles in this category.

I don't think there is any need to draw impenetrable lines between the vehicles based on some arbitrary retail price anyway. We all know that the price actually paid for any given vehicle will vary tremendously based on all kinds of factors. There isn't any reason not to treat these valuations as gray areas, at best.

The Elantra and Focus have moved up a step, that's all. We are not winnowing down this discussion to a few small cars by any means - we just need to decide what other rock bottom entry level vehicles belong in this discussion.

I hope you'll help up do that. :confuse:

backy · August 2005

Good--let's not draw lines based on price then. But that is exactly what has been done. So now we have a discussion with maybe all of four cars in it: Accent, Aveo, ECHO, Rio, instead of the much more interesting (IMO) discussion we used to have.

Instead of grouping cars by price, why not by size, which is what much of the industry does?

pat · August 2005

What other cars do you want included here? Give me a specific proposal that fits your needs and allows the separate discussion to be based on the seven in the new article and we can certainly consider it.

randydriver · August 2005

I like the ideal of grouping the cars by size. I mean the Mini is a small car that is pricey but serves its purpose which is fun and sporty and small and doesn't devoure gas. I used to think the small Saturn sedan and coupe fit in, but they have vanished. There is also the BMW 3 series......or is that the new 1 series????anywho...some of the small cars are cheaper, some are more expensive ......but they all have something ....IMO.

I love small cars.....

backy · August 2005

I already made my proposal, based on the restrictive constraints already put in place: Accent, Aveo, ECHO, Rio. That's assuming this discussion cannot cover cars like the Elantra (becuase they are covered in the other discussion) even though they cost under $16k. And if this discussion can't cover the Elantra then it shouldn't cover cars of similar size and cost like the Spectra, Forenza, Aerio, Focus, Cobalt, Corolla etc.

pat · August 2005

No one said we can't talk about the Elantra (and Focus) here. I am not going to put them in the categories, but I'm not going to declare that they can't be considered against the other vehicles we want to discuss.

I'm certainly open to redefining this by size which is what I thought you asked for. But if that's not what you want to do, that's okay ... I'll continue to seek opinions for which two rock bottom entry-level sedans we should connect this discussion to and leave the structure as it is.

Thanks.

backy · August 2005

If you include the Rio, how can you NOT include its cousin, the Accent (both based on the same platform for '06)? And how can you include the Sentra in this group and not include its direct competitors such as the Focus, Elantra, Corolla, and Civic?

grandtotal · August 2005

I could be wrong but I suspect the real problem is that the database gurus at Edmunds.com did not forsee that the "What is this topic about" filed might need to accommodate more than so many vehicles and rather than change it they are happy to impose an arbitrary limit.

pat · August 2005

That field is actually is going to be increased by 3 thanks to your host's whinings and pleadings and a temper-tantrum or two.

No, I don't know when, but it shouldn't be too long.

But let's not go there ... we need to either be talking about the cars or what cars we want added to the categories here.

iluvmysephia1 · August 2005

that you'll either find your discussion in this thread or the "Economy Sedans $16-20,000" thread, right? Let's not ask for cheese with our wine, shake hands and get down to some continued serious talk on automobiles in the "Low End".

As the fuel econony issue becomes more prevalent these two threads are both going to be "must-go-to's" in the future. Look for trends in small cars-good trends, bad trends, trends that go bump in the night, you get the picture. Amend their headings and titles as wanted or needed but keep them both around for our continued participation. Gracias!

backy · August 2005

Re cars in this thread... note that the starting price of the Sentra is $13,100 + destination, and that is for a car with no A/C or power accessories. Prices go up from there, to about $19k for the high-zoot SE-R Spec V. The list price of a Sentra with any modicum of equipment is nearly $16,000. The starting price of the Spectra LX (also no A/C but 6 airbags) is $12,850 + destination, and for the Elantra GLS is $13,299 + destination (but that is for a car with A/C, SABs, and full power). So, why is it that the Sentra is considered a "low end" car but the Spectra and Elantra are not?

pat · August 2005

The Sentra was part of this discussion to begin with and was not included in the article that necessitated the need for the new discussion. Are you suggesting I eliminate it here?

I can't change the fact that the editors included the Spectra and and Elantra in the "$16k-$20k" designation. If you want an answer on that, you could use the Help link and ask them about it.

As I've said previously, I needed to fit a discussion to that article. I didn't want to close down what we'd been doing here, so I made a bit of higher category in an attempt to accommodate the new comparo and let this discussion continue.

No one is telling you that you can't talk about the Spectra or the Elantra or any other car you want to talk about. I'm very glad to see you participating in the new discussion that includes them. We have lots of discussion options here, and if we need more, we'll just add them!!

If you need to continue this conversation with me, we probably should do it by email. Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts. I have obligations to meet the needs of the site as a whole, though. I'm sorry that's not feeling okay to you.

backy · August 2005

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just trying to understand the rules of these discussions. You've asked me to provide my opinions on which cars should be covered here, and I've done that. I've seen several cars removed from the topic list, which means--usually--they are off-topic for discussion (at least on other discussions that would be the case). I'm glad that there is flexibility in this particular discussion to go outside the list of cars attached to the discussion.

backy · October 2005

With all the exciting activity happening in the low-end car space, I'd like to suggest the following entries for this discussion:

Chevy Aveo (the incumbent)
Honda Fit (all-new in early 2006)
Hyundai Accent (all-new this fall)
Kia Rio (all-new now)
Nissan Versa (all-new fall 2006)
Toyota ECHO/Yaris (all-new now, at least in Canada)

pat · October 2005

Excellent suggestions and consider it done. We do not have a category for the Versa yet, but I added everything else. I left the Sentra and will add the Versa when the category becomes available. (I can add up to nine vehicles now.)

backy · October 2005

OK, at least there is a discussion on the Versa already.

That leaves room for three more, which we'll need as this segment keeps expanding. Maybe VW will bring us the Polo, for example.

raychuang00 · October 2005

Maybe VW will bring us the Polo, for example.

I wouldn't be surprised that happens very soon. VW is probably already having its "bean counters" look at the cost to building the Polo in their Mexican or Brazilian assembly lines for sale to the entire North American market. With the major resurgence of interest in more fuel-efficient cars in the USA, I don't think VW wants to be left behind while the likes of Honda, Toyota, Nissan and possibly even Ford sells the B-segment cars to eager buyers.

backy · October 2005

That's right, there's also the Ford Fiesta as a possibility for import, or even the Ka, but that one might be a little too small for American tastes.

raychuang00 · October 2005

The Fiesta is likely, but I doubt the Ka will make it to the USA market due to its size and the fact it uses a very old engine design.

csandste · October 2005

I'd add the Scion xA to that set.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

the Scion XA, even though a hatchback egg-baby, should probably be on this list. The only disclaimer may be that it's a hatch and not a sedan, but I'd add it to the list anyway.

The Scion xA sells for just over $13,000 in stock form, and the xA RS 2.0, a souped-up Scion xA, for instance, retails for only $14,080. That's for a RS 2.0 with manual tranny, and they sell for about $14,800 with an automatic transmission.

backy · October 2005

If pure hatchbacks like the xA are allowed in this discussion, then the xB should be added too--both cost well under $16k MSRP. For that matter, the Suzuki Forenza/Reno should be here too. The Reno lists for a little over $13k.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2005

the title of this thread be called 'Low End Cars'? That way we can compare and contrast sedans and/or hatchbacks away to our little hearts content with a larger array of 'Low End' rigs.

As long as the $16,000 or less cost of the vehicles is still factored into the discussions. It's OK if we leave hatches out, too. I just don't see that it makes that much difference because they're often compared with sedans, anyway.

I'd be OK with adding the Scion xA and xB, the Suzuki Forenza and the Suzuki Reno, because they're under $16,000, but maybe somebody else or the host could intervene and offer their thoughts on the matter.

pat · October 2005

when we'll get around to actually talking about the cars themselves instead of talking about what we're gonna talk about ...

:shades:

backy · October 2005

It helps to know what you are talking about before you start talking about it.

How about this?

backy, "The Forums Test Drive Team" #171, 8 Oct 2005 9:41 pm

danf1 · October 2005

Come on Pat, this reminds me of work. We have to have a meeting so that we can discuss what we'll talk about in our next meeting.

pat · October 2005

Dang, that's what I was trying to escape!!! :P

backy · October 2005

One of the problems for this discussion is that all the really interesting cars (sorry, Aveo fans) aren't available yet, at least in North America. So that tends to limit discussion. Maybe in a few weeks when the new Rio, Accent, and Yaris (in Canada at least) are available things will pick up a bit. Then next year is a big one for low-end cars with the Yaris coming to the U.S. along with the Fit and Versa.

I will add that one interesting trend I see in this market is that this may be the first time when the Japanese automakers actually underprice the Koreans. The Fit and Versa are rumored to be coming out at around $12k US. The Yaris should start under $12k also, based on Canadian pricing. The price for the new Rio with only minimal equipment (no power package or ABS for example) is $13k. The Accent won't be any less.

raychuang00 · October 2005

The Fit and Versa are rumored to be coming out at around $12k US. The Yaris should start under $12k also, based on Canadian pricing. The price for the new Rio with only minimal equipment (no power package or ABS for example) is $13k. The Accent won't be any less.

My guess right now is that Honda and Toyota will price the Fit and Yaris around US$13,000 MSRP and Nissan around US$13,500 MSRP for the Versa.

backy · October 2005

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Fit start at $13k, since it will have SABs, SACs, and ABS standard. The Yaris is starting considerably below $13k in US dollars in Canada, so it depends on how the US Yaris is configured. Nissan has stated the Versa will start at around $12,000 US:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/170861/1/.html

allfiredup · October 2005

How would they justify a $13k Fit when the Civic starts at $14k? Even at $12k it seems like most would step up to the Civic. But maybe that price difference does make a difference to some people. I'm also wondering if the Fit will get significantly better mileage than a Civic. Anyone know the fuel economy of a 1.5L Fit/Jazz?

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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