Low End Sedans (under $16k)

randyt2 · July 2001

Part of the difference in room is accounted by the rear passenger room in which the Focus beats the Echo in all measurements except the rear hip room -- however they measure that. There are other aspects in passenger room that are not measured, except in this total space figure.

majtecho, I suspected that but you never know. Now, fangio maybe I can believe (j/k).
:~)

majorthomecho · July 2001

According to Consumer Reports, the Echo beats the Focus in front leg room, front head room, rear fore-aft room, and rear head room. The Focus beats the Echo in front shoulder room and rear shoulder room.

randyt2 · July 2001

In Edmunds, when you do a comparison, the Focus beats the Echo in rear legroom, rear shoulder room, and rear headroom. The Echo beats the Focus in rear hip room. So Edmunds vs. CR there is a discrepancy in rear headroom.

majtecho I don't have a CR, what is actually represented by that fore-aft measurement?

backy · July 2001

The Japanese process? Are you refering to the process for quality manufacturing based on statistical methods that the Japanese learned from an American, Dr. W. Edwards Deming? Is it not a process that any manufacturer, whether Ford or DaimlerChrysler or even Hyundai, could emulate if they so choose? What about the process makes it a uniquely Japanese process?

Question: what large manufacturing company makes the industrial robots used by Mercedes-Benz to manufacture their automobiles (and undisputably high-quality automobiles at that)? Hint: the same robots are used to manufacture Hyundais.

backy · July 2001

I am overjoyed to report that my Elantra is every bit the equal of Toyota in the cardboard trim department. (Proving once again how quickly the Korean automakers can learn from the Japanese.) The backs of the fold-down seats are made of... black cardboard! Pretty macho-looking cardboard, too--not at all feminine. :P And I was thinking that I had been shortchanged because I bought a Korean car. However, I am upset now because I cannot find the lipstick holder on the center console.

BTW, the reason I asked about how EPA measures interior room was I wonder if they would include the back window shelf space. That would account for a few cubic feet in the Focus and Echo comparison, with the Focus' sloping rear. Now I am wondering what the EPA does with all those water-damaged test cars...

badtoy · July 2001

"The Japanese process? Are you refering to the process for quality manufacturing based on statistical methods that the Japanese learned from an American, Dr. W. Edwards Deming? Is it not a process that any manufacturer, whether Ford or DaimlerChrysler or even Hyundai, could emulate if they so choose?"

You bet -- that was exactly my point. The only reason it's considered "Japanese" is because they wre the first to adopt it and the only ones really committed to it.

protegextwo: Palm Springs is wonderful. My wide and I have a time share there, and we go as often as we can (it's only an hour and a half away from where we live). The temperature varied between 104 and 108 at midday, but since it's do dry, you never sweat -- you just feel like you're covered with a warm blanket. Nights are cool, and dry too -- you don't need air conditioning at all. And the sky is always bright blue, without a single cloud. Love it!!

jstandefer · July 2001

According to MSN's Carpoint, the interior dimensions show up as follows:

Echo/Focus

------------------------------

39.9/39.3 Front Headroom

37.6/38.5 Rear Headroom

41.1/43.1 Front Legroom

35.2/37.6 Rear Legroom

51.9/53.7 Front Shoulder Room

50.7/53.7 Rear Shoulder Room

51.1/49.4 Front Hip Room

51.0/49.5 Rear Hip Room

------------------------------

358.5/364.8 Advantage: Focus

These numbers, as far as I can tell, are provided by the manufacturers. Overall, the Focus is a roomier vehicle. However, interior design and ergonomics play a huge role in how roomy the interior feels. My friend has a brand new Focus Wagon. I have a Mazda Protege. Even though the Focus, on paper, has more interior room, my Protege feels much larger inside. The Focus's door panels shove into your hip room and you can't buckle the front seat belts nor release the parking brake without lifting the center armrest. This alone makes the vehicle feel more cramped, since you have to move things to access other things.

carleton1 · July 2001

than the Focus, Protege, etc. The higher seating postion of the ECHO make it far more comfortable to enter, exit, and to enjoy while inside the vehicle or as a passenger. The Focus was the least comfortable of the 3 for my wife, my friend and his wife, and myself when we sat in all vehicles at the January Annual Auto Show.
My niece and her husband liked their Mazda MPV so much (old sytle SUV with real 4WD) they traded it off and now drive an Izuzu built Honda Passport.

mpgman · July 2001

When I sat in a Focus, it seemed to have a lot more legroom in the front than the Echo. Echo compensated with the super high seating position, but the seat track should go back at least another inch. That shouldn't hurt the shoulder belt angle. For that matter, unless there is some safety related reason, extended driver and passenger seat tracks should be an after market option.

As to this thread, maybe it should be that you need at least one EPA rating of 32 something or better to qualify. So much then for all of the gas VWs and most of the Proteges.

randyt2 · July 2001

I like the armrest, it can be easily flipped up out of the way in a few seconds or positioned normally. True, I would prefer not having to do this at all, but you only need to do this after you enter and before you leave the car. Maybe in a test drive the armrest "factor" is more noticeable, but in my normal commute (over 30 min) I don't seem to notice it, with regards to the spatial aspect or otherwise, but it could just be me.

Now the Focus vs Protege, room was not an issue for me. The deciding factor for me was the IIHS offset crash tests, but then again safety was high on my evaluation list.

majorthomecho · July 2001

CR sets the front leg room at 40 inches and then measures the horizontal distance from the rear seat back to the back of the front seat back.

majorthomecho · July 2001

With all this bragging about the cardboard trim in the cars, I feel so left out. My car has no cardboard trim. ; (

Can I still remain a member of this thread?

LOL.

jstandefer · July 2001

All of this cardboard talk just made me run out and check my car. I was just so hoping that I would see some really nice cardboard. To my major disappointment, I found nothing but carpet! :-(

On a more serious note, it looks like the Elantra got some pretty bad offset crash test scores from the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety (IIHS). It appears that the airbags deployed late, allowing the driver's head and neck to contact the steering wheel. Also, in one of the test, the driver's seat latch broke on one side. Here's the link:

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0103.htm

backy · July 2001

"The only reason it's considered 'Japanese' is because they wre the first to adopt it and the only ones really committed to it."

The first part of your statement is true and well-documented; Deming first lectured Japanese manufacturing leaders in 1950. Note, however, that it took a couple of decades for Japan to begin to overcome its reputation for shoddy quality products. To compare, Hyundai has been selling cars in the U.S. for 15 years, Kia and Daewoo for less time. It will be interesting to see what strides Hyundai and the others can make in the next five years or so.

The second part of your statement is inaccurate. For example, Deming's principles have been in use at Lockheed since 1974--for 27 years. I'd say that's a commitment. According to The Washington Post, 12/21/93 (Deming's obituary), by 1984 Deming's quality principles such as quality circles were being followed by 90 percent of the Fortune 500, including Ford and GM (maybe they weren't paying attention at all his lectures, but that's another story). By '84, over 3,000 quality circles were in place at U.S. companies. That shows a widespread commitment to Deming's quality principles outside of Japan. But Japan does have the most experience at it.

backy · July 2001

Looks like a recall or two is in order for driver's air bag and seat track! At least the car's structural integrity held up--now that would be tough to recall. I guess the reinforced cardboard is doing the job.

Major Thom: if you would feel better contributing to the Cardboard thread, I say go ahead. It's a free country. Maybe your next car will have cardboard. (Tip: check out the inside of the glovebox, in some cars it is lined with felt-covered cardboard.)

badtoy · July 2001

If American car maufacturers are so committed to it, why then aren't they more successful at it? You aren't one of those people who think American workers are inferior, are you?

logic1 · July 2001

Actually, auto manufacuturing in the United States and Canada has been increased, not decreased over the past 10 years. Overall demand for autos have increased beyond domestic capacity, however, meaning there are more imports coming to the US and Canada. While people speak a lot about Korea, actually Mexico, with its Volkswagon and DC plants has seen the fastest growth in US and Canada exports.

majorthomecho · July 2001

Checked out the glove box (both of them) and no cardboard. Guess if I want cardboard in my car, I will have to go out and buy some. ; )

majorthomecho · July 2001

Don't forget the work that Ford sends to Mexico. The final assembly on the Focus ZX3 is done down there.

badtoy · July 2001

American workers are fine -- it's the cheapo engineering and materials, as well as antiquated stamping plants, that hurt American quality. I D/C had spent the money on Chrysler's plants they spent on acquisitions, they would have solved the problem two years ago. GM is working on it, and Ford has no excuse -- they finally woke up and brought over the guys who saved Jaguar, bless 'em.

backy · July 2001

No, not at all. American autoworkers have demonstrated they are every bit as competent as their counterparts in other countries. Otherwise you would not have so many high-quality vehicles being turned out at American factories (Hondas, Toyotas, Saturns, BMWs etc.). The quality issues at American automakers have deep roots. They became complacent in the postwar boom days, when they could sell anything that moved, and allowed Japan to catch up and then surge ahead through the application of Deming's techniques. By the time the American automakers caught on, Japan already had a 25-year headstart. That's why there is still a quality gap, but if you refer to the charts published by Consumer Reports and other sources on defects per vehicle over time, you'll see that the quality gap between Japanese and U.S. automakers has closed considerably in the past 10 years, to the point where the U.S. has passed up Europe and is close to (but not quite equal to) the Japanese. So it's now possible to buy a small car--Saturns--designed and built in the U.S. that is of high quality based on defects (now the car itself, that's another matter....).

majorthomecho · July 2001

If you look at the line graph on page 13 of the Consumer Reports New Car Buying Guide 2001, you will see that the American car industry has NOT passed the European car industry in terms of reliability [quality of a car measured over time]. They are quite close, but have not passed them.

And yes, the American industry has shrunk the gap between itself and the Japanese, but the Japanese have not been standing still. They have been improving too.

It is just that the Americans had more improving to do.

backy · July 2001

Thanks for the correction, Major. I have misplaced my CR mag (darn kids) and was going on memory (very dangerous). I thought I recalled the American bar crossing the European bar, but obviously I was having a senior moment.

Since you have the mag, would you mind verifying that Japan's bar has flattened out in recent years, while the European and American bars are getting closer to it? One would expect this behavior, as it gets harder and harder to make incremental improvements in quality as you get closer to perfection, but I don't want to rely on memory again. Also, is there a bar on the chart for the Korean automakers?

majorthomecho · July 2001

No, I would not say that the bar for the Japanese have flattened out. The improvement in quality from the years 1995 to last year looks steeper than the improvement for the Americans or Europeans. The Europeans look like they are the ones who have flattened out the most in improvements of quality for that time period. The Americans and Europeans do not appear to be getting closer. The Koreans are not listed.

If you have any more questions, just ask. If there is a auto resource out there, I probably have it. ; )

iluvmysephia1 · July 2001

vehicle that actually looks good! Gonna be very difficult from the Japanese. The Koreans have them beat very badly in this regard. Not only do you get a well-made car from Kia, you also get a great warranty too. Your out-the-door cost will be considerably lower as well. To top it off the Koreans have ACTUALLY SPENT SOME TIME DESIGNING THE LOOKS OF THE CAR'S BODY!!!! Imagine that. Thought put into car design. The Japanese need to get to work. Might be too late, dudes.

majorthomecho · July 2001

"Well made car from Kia,"

LOL.

mpgman · July 2001

Kia made my Festiva, and I got 320,800 miles from the original engine and clutch. We can argue that it was a Mazda design that Kia assembled for Ford, but they did a darn good job putting it together in my opinion. No one rattle and 40 mpg with minimal oil consumption to the very end.

majorthomecho · July 2001

No offense to your car meant.

I was thinking of Kias of more recent vintage like the 2001 Kia Sephia which had an average of 250 problems per 100 vehicles or the 2001 Kia Rio which had an average of 255 problems per 100 vehicles or the Kia Spectra which had an average of 295 problems per 100 vehicles or the Kia Sportage which had an average of 300 problems per 100 vehicles.

"Well made car from Kia,"

Yeah, right!

jstandefer · July 2001

The looks of a car are purely subjective and I am glad that you love the looks of your Sephia. Personally, I just feel that the Sephia looks like your typical Japanese design from about 5 years ago. Very original!! Notice how car design has moved to emphasize crisp and sharp lines. The melted ice cube look is gone...

But, you are right. The Japanese should follow the Koreans. First, you design the body so that it looks "nice." Then, you design the interior so that it is roomy and functional. Once you are all done, then you try to squeeze in some safety. I know, the Japanese have it all backwards. First, they design safety, then the interior, then the body...

Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) Ratings:

Small Japanese Cars:
Good: Honda Civic
Acceptable: Mazda Protege
Acceptable: Nissan Sentra
Acceptable: Toyota Corolla
Poor: Mitsubishi Mirage

Small Korean Cars:
Poor: Hyundai Elantra
Poor: Kia Sephia

Small American Cars:
Good: Ford Focus
Acceptable: Ford Escort
Acceptable: Saturn SL
Marginal: Dodge Neon

IIHS Ratings:
Good
Acceptable
Marginal
Poor

BTW, Mazda is one of the only manufacturers that still do full-size clay mock-ups of their designs. Extreme attention is paid to the design, not only for aesthetics but also for aerodynamics. The Millenia, for example, has a coefficient of drag of 0.29. That is absolutely outstanding, especially considering that it achieved that 6 years ago.

cjaccetta · July 2001

Let's be frank here, folks....no small car is particularly "safe" considering the size of almost every other vehicle. If I'm gonna be in a 40-mph collision of ANY kind, I want to be in a Licoln Navigator!

Does anyone know if those IIHS offset crash test results are to be interpreted as though the tested vehicle were involved in a head-on collision with the same size/weight vehicle?

PS - Didn't Subaru hit the sub-0.30 coefficient of drag with the first batch of XT coupes in 1987?

backy · July 2001

Two questions about Mazda's "extreme attention to design":

1) With Mazda's extreme attention to design, why can't they come up with a bumper design that protects the car from major damage in a 5 mph impact? According to IIHS' tests, the Protege is more than twice as bad as the lowly Elantra on this score ($521 average damage per test vs. $213). The Protege is also ranked below the Neon, Civic, Saturn, Sentra, Corolla, and Prizm on this test (of cars in our forum's scope). Of these, the Saturn ranks best (nice engineering on the space-cage perhaps), followed by Elantra. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to design a decent bumper.

2) Why can't Mazda design a body structure for the Protege that rates better than "average" in the IIHS crash tests? Now this one does take some engineering prowess. Perhaps the clay models don't help here--computer modeling may be more useful.

I'd love to go on here and ask other questions about Mazda's attention to design, e.g. how they can design a minivan that can't zoom-zoom out of its own way, or a sports car that can't deliver its advertised horsepower, or a compact sedan (626) that is a lesser vehicle than its previous generation, but that's outside the scope of this forum.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2001

of late. Not enough profits for those whom have financial stake in them. The Miata is nice and the 4-door sedans are sleek looking. The minivan appears to be a bit of a bust. Protege tries to look as good as the beautiful Sephia and looks way better than Toyota's Echo and looks somewhat better than Toyota's Corolla(though the 2003 design currently being sold in Hong Kong looks much better to me). In short, too many similar mundane-looking Japanese cars to fill and clog our nation's highways and biways dudes. Time for a little merge or aquisition action again.

badtoy · July 2001

You'd be better off in a Sequoia, based as it is on the Tundra (rather than the F150, as is the Lincoln Navigator).

Remember -- mass and interia aren't the whole story. Structure plays a huge role as well.

jstandefer · July 2001

"Mazda's a cash-drain"...

Yeah, that's why Ford got rid of Kia and kept Mazda. Mazda's financial loss this year was from a one-time corporate restructuring (early-retirement payoffs) that completes Ford's restructuring plan at Mazda. Look for a total revamp of the Mazda line-up in the next three years with the return of the venerable rotary engine.

"extreme attention to design"

I was referring to exterior design. However, the 5mph damage tests conducted by the IIHS is hard to read. The repair costs (unless $0) only shows how much it costs to repair the car. Mazda parts are traditionally higher in cost. Another thing is that for some strange reason, Mazda uses a slight textured pattern on their bumper covers. You can't just repaint the damaged section; the whole bumper cover must be replaced to look new. Why do they do that? I don't know. However, I've been rear-ended twice in my '99 Protege at speeds between 10-15mph. Damage? Some paint chips...

Only two small sedans get "Good" body structure ratings on the IIHS offset frontal crash test. Those are the 2001 Honda Civic and 2001 Hyundai Elantra. Both of those vehicles are brand new designs, as where the Protege is going on it's third year. When the Protege is redesigned for the 2004 model year, it will get significant structural reinforcements. What I find interesting, is that the IIHS grouped the 2001 Protege with the 1999 and 2000. For 2001, Mazda made structural reinforcements to the engine pan, suspensions mounts, and safety cage. Why didn't the IIHS retest the Protege? Another question... why can't Hyundai use airbags that work?

The 2.5L Duratec used in the MPV is a parent company decision... with the Contour going out of production, Ford had to stick that engine in something. However, the 2002 MPV will get the much more powerful 3.0L Duratec. Have you driven the current MPV? I have always found it to be quite adequate if you let it rev up. It is certainly better than the 4-cyl DaimlerChrysler vans, or the anemic Quest and Villager.

The Miata? I can't explain that one. However, I'm sure Mazda will rectify the situation this coming model year. At least they came out and stated their error. Ford didn't do that when the same thing happened to the Mustang Cobra.

How is the 626 lesser than the previous generation? The new 626 is roomier, quieter, more powerful, and smoother than the previous generation. It doesn't really matter though, since the new generation is just around the corner and will be powered by a 3.0L DOHC V6 with S-VT and variable intake control.

majorthomecho · July 2001

The offset crash test by IIHS is like the full frontal crash test by NHTSA. Results from both can be compared ONLY within the same class.

Now, the results of the side impact crash test done by NHTSA for any car can be compared to ANY other car.

Strange to say this, but the Echo scores as well in that test as the Buick LeSabre although the LeSabre weighs 1,600 pounds more.

And sorry, I cannot be Frank. I am Steve. ; )

iluvmysephia1 · July 2001

between my Sephia's rear end and the Toyota Echo's rear end. Yes, the Echo is so homely that I think Toyota engineers have a pretty good sense of humor. Similar to Pontiac Aztek. I know it's an SUV but homely is next to....whew! No, I'll take the aesthetically pleasing lines of the Sephia and it's good attention to design over any Japanese 4-door sedan. That goes for German(except Jetta)and all American sedans. The Protege is my favorite looking Japanese sedan available as I type this. A sporty look and good positive appeal to it. Corolla's hopefully changing starting in 2003 though word is they're not going to sell the design they're now selling in Hong Kong but the Corolla Altis design http://altis.com.my
If this is true it's off of my future consideration list. Too Corolla-typical for me.

badtoy · July 2001

They'll be selling a version developed specifically for the US market by Calty. We haven't seen it yet, so I have no idea what it's going to look like -- but enough people have hollered over the styling of the home-market car that hopes are high it will be much edgier and sportier.

majorthomecho · July 2001

The link to the next style Corolla that we will be getting can be found in the Corolla thread. It is a site for Toyota of Japan, but from what I have seen of pictures and renderings this is the model we will be getting.

As I have said before, it has the tall greenhouse, sloping hood, and back end is higher than the front end look of the Echo.

The next Camry will be sportier and edgier.

carleton1 · July 2001

We thought the ECHO was ugly until we sat in one and drove it. ECHO has good performance, great fuel economy, is easy to get in and out of, has a comfortable seating position, feels large inside, and the list goes on and on and on....

majorthomecho · July 2001

I just found this, but in June of last year Popular Mechanics did a round up review of 12 of the lowest price cars available in America. Here is the link.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/popmech/auto3/0006AUNCBM.html

fangio2 · July 2001

I dated an ugly girl once and your defense of the Echo's looks echoed my defense of her.

majorthomecho · July 2001

As long as you were happy, that is what mattered.

carleton1 · July 2001

But the comfort, performance, reliability, fuel economy are living proof that real beauty is more than skin deep.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2001

as long as there are subjects, dumb wannabe car magazines like Clodsumer Retorts will continue to rake in American bucks. Like I've said before, Kia is supposedly the newcomer in America but they have the fat veterans Toyota beat BIG time in styling. Mazda too. If Protege is the best styling Mazda can come up with in a smaller 4-door sedan, there probably is something then to the fact that the Japanese car companies poo-poo spending any time and money with small cars that don't make them big money. Kia designers decided to stop and think first. Hey, if we style our cars with a nice looking design we'll sell them to an American public STARVED FOR NICE LOOKING SMALL CARS. Rio, Spectra and Sephia are pulling away Civic, Corolla and Protege shoppers when the people get a look at the body styles. No problem, Toyota's got the Calty Corolla on the books and up for sale in 2003. Gotta get a look at that thing. I KNOW TOYOTA can still design a nice looking small 4-door sedan.

carleton1 · July 2001

Toyota has the best reliability in all vehicles. True, some may not be as stylish to some people. DaimlerChrysler minivans greatly outsell Toyota Sienna and probably because of more attractive styling. Kia is like DC in that styling is emphasized over reliability. Neither have yet developed the reputation equal to Toyota for reliability.

majorthomecho · July 2001

As long as there are people such as yourself who are willing to overlook issues like safety and reliability and buy their products, Kia and Hyundai have no reason to change in those areas.

jstandefer · July 2001

Sephia design... I can sum that up in one word: outdated.

Most modern designs use the wedge shape, meaning that the front end of the car is lower and overall profile escalates from front to rear. This is done for three reasons: profile gives the vehicle a sense of forward motion; profile is more aerodynamic; increased trunk volume.

The Sephia's profile has a sloping hood and sloping trunk. This design was used unsuccesfully on the Contour/Mystique and 96-00 Taurus/Sable. As a result, the Sephia has only 10.4 cubic feet of trunk space. That is small considering that most of its competitors have right around 13 cubic feet of trunk space.

The Sephia uses a straight character line which appears from the fenders to the rear quarter panels. However, the Sephia's hood and trunk profile are rounded, contradicting the character line and giving vehicle a bulbous appearance.

The window frames are painted body color. Traditionally, this is a trait of a base model vehicle, with the upper models having black window frames. Black window frames give the vehicle's greenhouse a more integrated look. The Sephia's monochrome treatment of the window frames lend to a choppy look. However, monochrome window frames can be done successfully if the monochrome treatment is carried throughout the design. However, the Sephia's black plastic sail panels on the rear windows and black plastic mirror-base treatment add to the awkward look.

The interior is just plain outdated. Those door panels? Exact replicas of the 1995 Protege. The switchgear? Exact replicas of the 1995 Protege. The steering wheel? Exact replica of the 1995 Protege. Or are they? I wouldn't be surprised if they are Mazda parts, just like the engine and platform. Everything's based on a design Mazda got rid of years ago.

Here's a 2001 Sephia and the same car with the character line removed, trunk redesigned to achieve the wedge shape (and two more cubic feet of trunk space), and window frames blackened:

Original

Modified

I prefer the modified version. What do you guys and gals think?

jstandefer · July 2001

Looks like PhotoPoint isn't sharing anymore. Well, for the Sephia photos, go here:

http://photos.yahoo.com/jstand6

Then click on the Vehicles album and then click on the thumbnails to enlarge.

majorthomecho · July 2001

Jstand, thanks for auto design 101. I had to pick up my roommate and your post had me looking at cars all the way there. After I picked her up, we both were looking at cars. You are right, the pillars look better black as opposed to the color of the rest of the car. Would improve the looks of the Sephia if they did what you showed.

iluvmysephia1 · July 2001

I'm finding it much more entertaining than watching Gary Condit duck flying accusations. From Sephia's finely shaped headlights with just the right amount of mirroring inside to the lines gently sloping back from the inside edge of the headlights back towards the windshield she's nicely appointed all the way around. Beats the blocky chunkyness of Protege which conjures up images of Mitsubishi's Mirage or Mitsubishi's whatever. Feel free to post something that actually starts to argue against the fine body design of this hot-selling Korean import. So far it all adds up to one painstakingly long wait for Shaq to put up another UGLY free throw attempt that bounces desperately off the top of the backboard and over the top out of bounds.

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