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I don't think any disrespect to the Sephia was intended.
Lately I've noticed a real bloom in Kias on the road, especially in the Rio and Spectra 5-door. The Spectra, IMO, gives 5-door buyers (all 36 of us, it seems) a nice styling alternative to the Elantra GT. The GT is kind of odd-looking by comparison, whereas I think the Spectra styling is cleaner. I should know, because I have to look at the but-ugly back end of my GT every morning when I go out to the driveway! Woof!!
I read in USA Today (7/27) that 35% of Kia owners are under the age of 35. Food for thought.
Happy Motoring!
I am providing the link for anyone interested in checking where a particular car ranks.
Of the currently produced sub-compacts, I believe Echo ranks first. I say believe because they rank the Escort as #1, but that is not produced anymore except by Escort they might mean the ZX2 which is still produced.
http://www.smartmotorist.com/top/saf.htm
iluvmysephia1... Hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you love the styling of your car, then more power to you. I personally think the Protege is still one of the best looking cars in its class. The Sephia is not ugly, but IMO it could use some easy improvements to spruce up the styling.
Bottomline is, if i am a gambler, i would choose KIA or Hyundai because they have the coolest looking cars (according to Iluvmysephia) regardless whether they last or not. Whereas if i am frugal and i need to make a very wise decision, i would go for the Hondas and toyotas, probably the civic or the echo. They maybe funny looking or bland or whatever, but the thing is- they have bullet-proof reliability. They may have issues but mostly minor. While Korean auto owners worry about engine problems or something major- Japanese auto owners are worried about things like, cupholders, disc changers, etc.. Get my drift. Koreans are improving but they are just not there yet. Honestly, i will buy something from the big three but not anycar Korean.
Buyers buy car for their specific needs. Whether to go from A to B, or just to have some extension to ones ego... etc. But as they say, the car you drive speaks a lot about you. So if ever i would have to choose, I would go for Japanese (excluding Mitsus) then American, then if there really is no other choice, then maybe Korean. or I would rather buy a bike... LOL
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
What is interesting about the Daewoo buyout is that GM wants nothing to do with Daewoo's main production plant. Just what does GM have in store for Daewoo?
Let's take a poll of the people here on this board... Do you prefer the styling of the:
Mazda Millenia
http://carpoint.msn.com/merismus/Gallery/c438506a.jpg
OR
Kia Sephia
http://carpoint.msn.com/merismus/Gallery/c438910a.jpg
In the BMW forum, i always am the observer type because i didnt have any issues to discuss there.
I have been waiting for the opportunity to buy my dream car, but know what- i got scared with all these anti-SUV thing. Dont have a need for now though so i guess it will be a dream for a very long time. For now, i just feel contented looking at it in the showroom. Same goes with the Ferrari. I dont even think it is practical now to shell out that much cash for something.
I happen to have almost 50,000 on my Leganza and had had no where near the troubles my mother had with her Accord. Her's '98 transmission had to be torn apart for new seals. BTW, she's owned Accords since '78 and this is the last she'll buy.
The koreans know that they are standing in a shaky ground that is why they are offering that ridiculous warranty. And by the way, if they meant good about the warranty then why wasnt it transferable? Why does it apply only for the first owner? I will tell you why. Its because they know that is the only way they can have a share of the pie. And if they make it transferable to the second or third owner (if the car will last that long)they know that they are in big trouble because that will mean it will cost them so much resources that they may not be able to deliver. If you think we are being deceived by the Japanese by offering overpriced vehicles, think again because that is exactly what the Koreans main objective in the long run. To lure you initially into buying substandard automobilies with excellent warranty. In the end, examine what you get, a cheap car that goes to the shop every now and then. Makes sense to offer that kind of warranty. If its long term reliability you want, maybe- but as of this time, very unlikely.
If you want to believe that the Leganza is way better than the accord, be my guest. I am wondering why your mother had accords for nearly 20 years? If it was so problematic, why did she wait for 20 years to buy Korean. Oh i forget, the Koreans just got here.
If you disagree with CR's road tests, fine -- I do too, but then I disagree with other magazines as well, sometimes. Surprise surprise. But when it comes to raw data as supplied by CR, it's not subjective, and you can rant all you want about it, but it's not going to change the fact that the owners of those cars wrote in and told CR what went wrong with them. That's about as objective as you can get.
Also,the "ridiculous"warranty offers protction for the buyer who intends on keeping his car for 100,000 miles.This would include most buyers of Hyunda's and Kia's since the resale value PRESENTLY is lower then the more expensive and less warrantied Japanese cars.I see no attempt at deception in doing this.Instead of saying"trust me"Hyundai and Kia are putting it in writing.With this warranty I have heard that there is 3 years maintenance being offered free.
So if a person spends $15,000 and keeps the car for 100,000 miles or ten years and leaves the car along the side of the road-how much worse of is he then the Japanese car buyer?
Re warranties: it appears that your premise is that a longer warranty is an indicator of lower quality. Actually, long warranties are a marketing gimmick and there are any number of reasons why automakers use them to sell cars. Take the luxury Japanese monikers: Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus. All of them have longer warranties than their lower-cost brands--Honda, Nissan, and Toyota. Does this mean that the luxury makes have lesser quality than the lower-priced brands? Of course not. The longer warranties reflect the expectations of luxury car buyers. I think it's pretty obvious why Hyundai has the long warranty: to build consumer confidence due to Hyundai's past reliability record. But what the long warranty does not indicate is the quality of current Hyundai vehicles. Consider that Hyundai would be shooting itself in the foot if it wasted its huge investment in new factories, new models, and long-term warranty programs by turning out shoddy vehicles this time around.
While it is true that the Hyundai/Kia 10-year powertrain warranty is transferrable only within a family, the 5-year bumper-to-bumper warranty is fully transferrable. (BTW, it is not uncommon to limit transferrability of long warranties; the automakers aren't stupid, they realize the costs of upholding a 10-year warranty). And if someone wants the extra insurance of a transferrable, 10-year bumper-to-bumper warranty, Hyundai offers one for an extra cost of around $700. I don't believe Honda offers a 10-year bumper-to-bumper warranty option (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). But they do offer shorter (7 years?) extended warranties. What does that say about Honda's confidence in their cars vs. Hyundai's? And please do not restate the argument, "Hondas don't need long warranties becasue they are inherently reliable." I've owned Hondas and while they were great, reliable cars, they did break and when they did, were expensive to repair. In a perfect world, I could buy a Honda or Toyota with its proven long-term reliability, with the features of an Elantra and the price of an Elantra, and get a 5/60, 10/100 warranty to boot. In an imperfect world, I'm very happy with my Elantra.
Bumper tests: I'm not sure why the IIHS bumper tests are hard to read. They look pretty clear to me. At least as clear as the offset tests. Sure, there are differences in parts costs, but are Mazda parts (bumper covers, mounting brackets and such) more than twice as expensive than Toyota parts? Or Hyundai parts? Or Saturn parts? I think it's pretty clear that the IIHS tests show that Mazda did not focus on minimizing damage from bumper impacts when they designed the Protege. I must admit I am skeptical that your car could take a hit at nearly 15 mph and sustain only paint chip damage. What hit you?
Re future improvements to Mazda cars (Protege's structure etc.): Let's stick to current models. We don't know what the 2004 Protege crash tests will look like. Otherwise the Elantra airbag issue is moot, since by 2004 Hyundai will have fixed it (if they plan to sell many more Elantras).
"Why can't Hyundai use airbags that work?" I assume you mean in the IIHS offset test, since they have done well in other crash tests. That's the question Hyundai has to find the answer to--but I still maintain it's easier to fix an airbag deployment problem than to redesign the structural itegrity of a car.
Re MPV and 2.5L engine: Do you think maybe Ford was trying to prevent the MPV from stealing too many sales from the Aerostar, in forcing the 2.5L Duratec on the MPV? Now, if Mazda does upgrade the power in the MPV for 2002, with decent mpg, that would make it desirable in my eyes (but my Caravan lease doesn't run out until '04--it's a 3.8L with good power, not the joke 4 cyl). Hey, why not drop the Millenia's Miller cycle engine into the MPV? Too pricey?
Re 626 being inferior to previous generation: I based that comment on independent reviews I've read (Consumer Reports, car mags) that without an exception rate the current 626 behind the old one. CR was particularly harsh. I also base it on personal experience driving both generations; I get them a lot as rentals. I would not trade my Elantra even-up for the current 626 4cyl (have not driven the 6, probably much nicer, also much pricier). That means, if I could have bought the 626 for the same price as my Elantra, I'd take the Elantra. The Elantra has better ride and handling and is quieter than the 626. Also I can't stand the looks of the 626; I think the old model was much nicer if a bit plain. Kind of like the Sephia. At least Mazda retained those trademark swivel vents. Mazda had better redo the 626 soon, or it will fare poorly against the new Camry and Altima, and the ever-popular Accord. And even the Sonata and Optima.
I apologize for this tangent from low-end cars-- but I guess I'm not the only guilty party based on recent posts...
There is no "if" for the 3.0L in the MPV. It is a fact and we should see it by October. BTW, I think you meant Windstar rather than Aerostar, since the Aerostar has been out of production for some time. However, Ford's names are hard to keep track of sometimes. And the awesome Miller-Cycle is way too expensive (its transmission is unique to the Millenia S only), but it's 210hp and 210lb-ft of torque, along with its great fuel economy, sure would be welcome.
Elantra quieter than the 626? Maybe a 1999 model... the 2000+ 626 has been substantially damped from noise and its ride considerably softened while improving its handling. It sure isn't the prettiest car though. However, the 2003 626 replacement (will most likely not use the 626 name) will be slightly longer and wider, while riding on the excellent Ford Mondeo platform. It will also be powered by a 160-170hp 2.3L DOHC I4 or a 215-220hp 3.0L DOHC VVT V6.
Having worked in the industry for a few years, I have driven most of the vehicles out there (under $40k). I have to say that I was actually impressed with the new Elantra. It doesn't have the behind-the-wheel refinement and performance of the Protege, but it's a great vehicle for those who don't like Mazda's Zoom Zoom campaign.
Most recent news is that Daewoo will not be releasing the U100 (or replacing the Leganza with the Magnus) in the American market as scheduled.
I have not heard anything more than that. I am just saying that you cannot say Daewoo has a future here simply on the "proof" of some naming contest.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I hope you are not going to tell anyone that your car looks better than a Porsche or a Mercedes or a Lexus.
I found also that the Hyundai Santa Fe is J. D. Power's top-rated Compact SUV in the 2001 Initial Quality Survey. While the Santa Fe is not an entry-level car by the definition of this forum (although it is an entry-level SUV), it does demonstrate Hyundai's improving quality with one of its new designs. It will be interesting to see how the new-for-2001 Elantra fares. A quote from the Santa Fe press release:
"Hyundai's other products have improved as well," Peterson added. "Hyundai is rated ahead of brands like Porsche, Mazda, Subaru, Suzuki and has
moved up substantially in the ratings."
The full press release is at:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=105&STORY=/www/story/04-30-2001/0001481544
Also, I found that Hyundai Motor America was awarded with J. D. Power Associates' Chairman's Award last April. This award was "presented by J.D. Power and Associates for Hyundai's commitment to quality improvements." It was only the 7th such award by J. D. Power in its history. The full press release is at:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=105&STORY=/www/story/04-10-2001/0001466683
I found a customer survey on carpoint.msn.com. The 2001 Elantra GLS/GT rated quite high on all categories, including Quality (8.9 out of 10) and Recommendation (9.1). In contrast the 2001 Civic rated lower across the board, including 8.0 on Quality and 8.1 on Recommendation.
My personal experience with my 2001 Elantra GLS is that after 9 months it has fewer initial defects than any other car I have owned, including 2 Hondas, 3 Toyotas, and 2 Nissans, and many other makes. The only defect since delivery has been a couple of screw-hole covers that popped off in cold weather. Not a huge problem, compared to the paint problems, squeaks/rattles, and other problems I have dealt with on the Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, and other cars. So here is one Hyundai owner at least who has found that his Hyundai is as well made as those from other automakers. The 200+ reviewers who rated the 2001 Elantra on Carpoint also seem to be very satisfied overall with the quality of their cars. Also, I follow the Edmunds Elantra and Civic forums closely and it seems to me that most posters are pleased with their cars, while reporting some problems--but the problems with the 2001 Elantra don't seem to be greater in number or more severe than that of the Civic (e.g., 3 Civic recalls to Elantra's 1 to date). That is unscientific of course, but since Edmunds doesn't have a formal survey like Carpoint it's the best I can do with that info without a lot of work to corrolate it.
I think the Japanese have gotten a little to comfortable lately. If they want to compete, it's time to get their rumps back to work.
Fortunately, I have written down some company wide and individual results. This was from some time back so I am not sure where the posts are that had links to the information.
In 2000, the industry average was 154 problems per 100 vehicles; Hyundai averaged 203 problems per 100 vehicles putting it 4th from the bottom; Daewoo averaged 211 problems per 100 vehicles putting it 3rd from the bottom; and, Kia averaged 251 problems per 100 vehicles placing it last. By comparison, Toyota averaged 118 problems per 100 vehicles.
In 2001, the industry average slipped to 158 problems per 100 vehicles. Hyundai improved to 192 problems per 100 vehicles. Kia dropped to 267 problems per 100 vehicles. I did not make a note of what Daewoo's score was. For comparison, Toyota also slipped and averaged 121 problems per 100 vehicles.
I have some individual results, but I am unsure if it is from the year 2000 or 2001. Given the presence of the XG300, I believe it is for 2001. Remember this is the average score per 100 vehicles. To save space, I am not going to point that out every time.
Kia Sephia 250, Kia Rio 255, Kia Spectra 295, Kia Sportage 300, Hyundai XG300 172, Hyundai Sonata 180, Hyundai Accent 184, Hyundai Elantra 187, Hyundai Santa Fe 202, and Hyundai Tiburon 272.
By comparison, my notes indicate that the Echo averaged 119 problems per 100 vehicles. I think this was in 2001, but I am not 100 percent sure. I think the average for 2000 was right around the same mark.
I have some scribbles that indicate 173 for the Lanos and 141 for the Leganza, but I am unsure of the year. These scribbles are on the same page as results for some Hyundai vehicles that match the results for what I believe is 2001 results.
I do agree that J.D. Powers needs to weight the problems due to severity, but I do not believe the claims that the Korean cars' problems are merely cosmetic while the other models' problems are more serious. I do not believe that because no one has come up with a source showing the raw data that J. D. Powers used to compile the results.
And exactly which low end vehicle was it that you feel strongly about?
I think it's also interesting that the Santa Fe took top honors in JD Powers' Compact SUV category, yet its score was considerably below average for all vehicles. What does that say for the other compact SUVs (which would include the RAV4, right?).
Re the Chairman's Award: I see your point on lack of criteria, I feel the same way about Motor Trend's COTY award--I stopped subscribing when they stopped providing the details on their scoring a few years back. All the Chairman's Award seems to do is recognize overall efforts by Hyundai at quality improvement, which are reflected by the improved scores in the 2001 survey.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
When comparing defective parts, it shouldn't be surprising for larger cars with more options score worst than smaller cars.
Yes, Larry, the size of the car does limit the options. For example, you can't get the 4-seat Hot Tub option on cars like the Civic, Corolla, and Elantra, but you can get it on the Ford Excursion and Chevy Suburban.
Then it hit me-my Leganza has black pillars-proof positive -black pillars are best.
Black pillars look even nicer when the minivans have the sunscreen windows. Nice that some sedans now have black pillars.
weighing in on the jdpower survey. i got my free oil change compliments of jd & reported 2 defects in my 2000 Kia Sephia. Complaint #1 I took delivery with the emission control idiot lite burning in spite of the sales rep just completing the ok check list, with me at his side. when I commanded ownership woof. Well I got a signed memo from the Sales Manager confirming my situation since it was 5pm on Friday and no mechanics around. Computer chip replaced & #2)the weather moulding was reglued which I have understood was a characteristicly common defect(probably accounted for 50% of Kia defects). to tell you the truth, I deliberated on accepting my Kia Sephia when I was confronted with the idiot lite at delivery; however, the latent charm of greed overcame me & I refused to give up my $8600 tax&title purchase of a new 2000 model auto in spite of the frequent negative postings. Now at 15months and 30,000 miles, I'm
pleased with my 2000 Kia Sephia decision. Keep up the good work. Too bad the Sephia is now history. And I do sleep better nites knowing that my Kia Sephia is really a Ford. Only difference is the Ford has a blue symbol & the Kia uses red. Enough said.
A good example of size has to do with a building. If you took an ordinary house and enlarged it to the size of the Sears Tower without making a lot of stuctural changes it would collapse.
Here's some food for thought Pete, if you were to double every dimension of a vehicle, it would weight exacty eight times more. The problem is every mating suface would only have exactly 4 times the surface area. The problem with that is the loading force amounts to twice the PSI. This would cause bearings to fail, parts to break, etc.
Now talking about options, a vehicle like the Leganza CDX, has a few more options than lets say an Echo. It would stand to reason, the more options, the more chance of things not working. In addition, the Leganza is substantially larger. Therefore, it has to be built a quite a bit more substantial to hold out just as good.
OK, ...All things being equal.
How about engineering, assembly, component quality?
If you doubled every dimension of a vehicle, you would have an Escalade, which probably is more like ly to have defects. Maybe you're on to something here.
http://www.autopacific.com/scores/
For example, select "Hyundai Elantra" and you can see its score and also how it ranks overall and against its competitors. Which by the way, was pretty good: 656 vs. compact car class average of 640, 7th overall in compact class, 107th overall of all 199 cars surveyed. In the compact class, the ratings went like this:
Civic 680
VW GTI 676 (tie)
Saturn S 676 (tie)
New Beetle 664
Golf 662
Focus 658
Elantra 656
Escort ZX2 648
Corolla 643
Sunfire 641
Jetta 635
Sentra 631
Echo 629
VW Cabrio 619
Nubira 617
Spectra 612
Dodge Neon 611
Cavalier 610
Accent 605
Impreza 602
Prizm 602
Protege 595
Rio 595
Lanos 592
Esteem 583
Mirage 580
Sephia 576
Plymouth Neon 571
There are some really strange results here. For example, the Dodge and Plymouth Neon are the same vehicle, built on the same assembly line. The only thing to account for the difference in scores is dealer satisfaction, and I find it hard to believe that Chrysler-Plymouth dealers are that much worse than Dodge dealers. Or take the Golf and Jetta; one has a hatch, the other a trunk, yet much different scores. How do you account for the difference between the Corolla and Prizm (could be dealer differences)? And the Cavalier and Sunfire? (dealers again?) Or how about some high-quality Japanese cars, the Echo, Impreza, and Protege, ranking so low? Of course, I don't mind that my Elantra GLS showed well, topping the likes of Corolla, Jetta, Sentra, Echo, Impreza, Prizm, and Protege; in fact besting all Japanese brands except the Honda Civic.
I have posted the ranking of the Echo in other threads myself, but I would feel more confident in the information if the attributes were disclosed.
It's usually the small ride that seem to go for ever.
The Japanese knew this and capitalized on small cheap cars. They often took a beating when attempting to build larger cars.
If it wasn't for the safety advocate Ralph Nader, the Americans would have been much further along than the rest of the world. Remember the Corvair?
Incident on a small planet dept: Saw the new Mitsubishi Lancer. I didn't know it was possible to make the interior even cheaper looking than the the Mirage, but they did it. Upholstery cloth looks like leftover yardage from 57 DeSoto production. Out the door at 16,000!Lots of thin plastic everywhere. Nice looking car, though I hope this isn't the basis for the new Neon!!!
In addition, parked next to it was a Lancer OZ sporting edition, I suppose. Had the predictable dealer "pack" with the sealant/protectant[300 dollars],in addition to a TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR dealer mark-up!!! For WHAT??? Do they want to sell em or dust em??? 18,700 total. Minus 2000, it would have been a good deal.No wonder Mitsubishi is having problems.
At any rate; very informative stuff, everyone, I enjoyed sifting through the posts!
There's a lot to be said for keeping a model around for a long time, seems as if every time a new version of a car comes out it's bigger, heavier and more expensive than the last.