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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Let me try to set the record straight on this saga of the numbers, and maybe we can put it to bed so we can talk more about cuts of beef and Sephias/Spectras and such. This started 3 days ago (100 posts, we've been busy here, got the board into the Top 10 list) in response to carlton1's post re (paraphrasing) how no one buys Korean cars because of their reputation for poor reliability. So I used current sales figures for Hyundai and Kia to point out that a LOT of people were buying Korean cars. As the thread went on, and the people buying Korean cars (like me) were called "fools", I used current sales figures to show that not only are Hyundai and Kia's sales increasing, they are taking market share away from everyone else because all other makes either have declining sales from last year, or are increasing at a lower rate than Hyundai and Kia. The numbers I sought were for specific entry-level models. I found only partial data on models, from Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, and Kia. (BTW, in review of the thread the sales decline for the Echo was only 13.5%, not 14.5%--sorry). I couldn't find sales by model for Mazda--just those weird "Domestic", "International", and "Export" aggregates. So I reported what I found and tried to make some observations. YOU brought up the Autonews numbers, which are not model-specific. So I looked at them and made some observations on those.
You'll see if you review this thread that it was never about which car is better, or is higher quality. This sales surge by Hyundai and Kia is not because they have superior quality to makes like Toyota, Honda, and Mazda; they're getting closer but still have some work to do. But the market-share grabbing phenomenon is interesting nonetheless, and has resulted in some intriguing behavior from competitors. Example: when was the last time we saw large numbers of improvements to a Civic in its second year of a new generation, as we are with the 2002 models? I can't think of any, going back twenty years. The tweaks always came in the middle of the generation, the 3rd or 4th years. There could be many reasons for this, but I'll bet one reason is that Honda is not ignoring the fact that Civic sales are flat year-to-year, even with a new generation, and is reacting agressively. I am in sales, and when a competitor starts posting numbers like Hyundai and Kia and starts taking away your market share, you sit up and take notice and respond, or you are in for rough times. It will be interesting to see how Toyota, Mazda, and the rest respond in 2002.
A couple of hours before I posted, I discovered that someone had run into my car and not told me. Fortunately, there was absolutely no damage done to my car or bumper except for a light scratch and some of their paint left on my car's bumper.
I knew whose car had done it and I talked to the owner last night. She claimed to have lent her car to some friends. She assured me that she had not done it.
That made me a little calmer, but I still was not happy. "Major Tom" is the first car that I chose by myself and no one else is helping me make the payments unlike my previous cars. I am very, very careful with him and how he looks.
I hope you all will understand and forgive me.
FYI, Backy I have not had a chance to look at your long post. I have to go buy a cheesecake and take it to my roommate. I will look at your post when I get back (if it is not lightning).
Personally, I like Filet Mignon.
Thanks to Backy for an explanation on his numbers. I know that no one was saying high sales equals quality or a better car. I was just relating my view on sales figures in general and the Echo sales figures in particular.
My whole motivation in this discussion was to provide an alternative view, an alternative possibility as to why Hyundai and Kia sales have increased.
You have given me an idea on what to call my roommate's car if she gets a Corolla.
When it comes down to crunch time and the search for a new car is serious, she will be looking at every car on the market within her price range. Those that don't meet her criteria will be crossed off the list. Those that do, we will have a test drive.
If my Echo continues to perform like it has, it will have a leg up. Although with her coming from a Galant, I think she would be happier in something with a longer wheelbase.
In closing, does anyone know why Colonel is spelled the way it is, but it is pronounced kur-nel?
* Chevy: Cavalier gets a new 140 hp, 2.2L Ecotech engine, and the Z24 can be had in a 4-door. The Prizm is in its last year, no changes.
* Daewoo: All models "have minor trim and package differences, although none you'd notice."
* Dodge: Neon gets some option-package upgrades (maybe they've figured out how to make power rear windows?)
* Ford: Focus gets the ZX5 5-door hatch (plus two other new models outside of our price range--we can only wish the Focus SVT would be around $15k), while the ZX2 is unchanged.
* Honda: Lots of updates to the Civic (see Hondanews.com for all the details), including refined steering and suspension, plus lots of little content upgrades. Most of the updates are for the LX and EX.
* Hyundai: nothing new in this space for 2002 (the GT was a 2001.5 model). Sonata gets a major tweaking, but that's outside our range. Tiburon replacement coming for '03.
* Kia: Both the Spectra hatch and sedan (formerly Sephia) get new sheetmetal, and the Rio adds a wagon, the Cinco (now you've got to admit, that's a pretty clever name, yes?)
* Lamborghini: Just seeing if you're still awake.
* Mazda: Big news for the Protege--all models get the 2.0L engine! Now there's some beef!
* Mitsubishi: The new Lancer replaces the Mirage 4-door, and the 2-door Mirage continues.
* Nissan: No changes noted for the low-end Sentra models; the new Sentra SE-R is (alas) too pricey for this discussion.
* Saturn: S-series is "essentially unchanged" (what else is new?)
* Suzuki: The Swift is dead, Jim. No changes to Esteem (although it is a bit bruised because it blames itself for the death of its little brother). New model, the Aerio, coming next spring as a 2003 model (price??).
* Toyota: We can hope the new Matrix is under $15k, but if not there's no significant changes for the entry-level models. A new Corolla due for '03.
Or maybe I just dreamt that I read that.
FWIW, the pricing I have seen on the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix indicates that the cheapest version will set you back $18,000 thus the cars are too expensive for this discussion.
Speaking of which, Edmunds is at it again. There is an article about the Top 10 Fuel-Efficient Cars and the Toyota Echo is listed.
The writer, Erin Riches, complains about the price of the Echo and indicates that even if you option the car with everything, you are still rolling down your own windows and adjusting your own mirrors. Poor wording aside, if you option your Echo with everything, you do not have to roll down your own windows. Power windows is an option available on the Echo. It has been an option available on 2001 models made later in the production year.
The article seems to have been published on Friday so the existence of the power windows is something Edmunds should have known about. After all, they do have it listed on their own board as one of the options available on the Echo. Power windows is part of option package three. If you don't select option package three, you cannot claim to have optioned the Echo with everything.
Also, Ms. Riches claims that the Echo is hard to handle at highway speed. That has not been my experience and I drive at highways speeds on a daily basis. She further indicates that this is especially true in high winds. Again, not my experience.
For a site that touts their unbiasedness, Edmunds sure seems biased against the Echo.
When responding, please indicate what car you own. If you disagree (or agree) with what Edmunds says, please tell us what Edmunds says that you are disagreeing (or agreeing) with and why.
I think it should be obvious as to my opinion about Edmunds' review of the Echo.
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/lancia/58/gallery/toyota/yaris.htm
The 5-door isn't too bad looking either.
With the increasing popularity of hatchbacks in the U.S., perhaps Toyota will consider importing the Yaris in the near future. Anyone heard of any such plans?
Re Echo in crosswinds: it seems almost every review I see on the Echo mentions instability in crosswinds. This is not suprising, since the car is light, tall, and has relatively small tires. So why do reviewers make such a big deal out of it? It's kind of like complaining that a Ford Excursion gets poor gas mileage. Maybe reviewers feel they have to complain about something, even something as subjective as styling, to appear even-handed. A reviewer doesn't have to tell us how he/she feels about a car's styling; it's something we can readily see for ourselves and on which we can make up our own minds. It's a highly personal thing.
Re Edmunds.com's comments on the '01 Elantra GLS, my wheels, that's pretty easy because they have had a strongly positive view of the car, especially during their long-term test. So of course I agree with all of it. Seriously, their experience with the long-term tester mirrors my experience, as I too have a 5-spd (but with pkg 2). I think they nit-pick too much about the lack of a CD player and cruise on the base model. If they wanted a CD player and cruise, they could have bought one of the option packages or easily installed them themselves. It's really not that big a deal. They used to complain too much about the "Korean new-car smell", but they haven't mentioned that one lately.
"Though the Mirage sedan has been discontinued to make room for the all-new Lancer sedan, Mitsubishi will continue to offer the Mirage coupe. Only a few minor changes -- a new audio faceplate, an emergency inside-trunk release and a new chrome badge -- are in store this year."
They also now say on the review of the Top 10 most fuel-efficient cars:
"...but the 2002 Mitsubishi Lancer will largely replace the Mirage." [emphasis mine]
I guess "largely" means the 4-door Mirages. Maybe the author of the Top 10 report should have read the Edmunds.com New Cars pages first.
If the writer didn't catch that little gaffe about the Mirage being totally discontinued when it is not, the editor sure should of.
Personally, I don't see how it could have gotten much worse.
Say for example if it were the Hyundai Protege, how many Protege owners would still be Protege owners?
If it were the Chevrolet Sephia, but the car looked the same, drove the same, and was the same quality you claim, would you have bought the Sephia, Iluv?
Personally, if the Echo had been made by anyone other than Toyota and the factors important to me were still there, I would have still bought my car. Personally, I bought the car and not the company.
Daewoo Elantra: no, not enough of a track record for me.
Dodge Elantra - no, because only the front windows would have power operation.
Ford Elantra: no, because I'd be concerned about first-year problems after the track record of the Focus and my own experience with a '95 Mystique.
Honda Elantra: no, because it would cost $16,000 and for that money I would have gone with the Protege ES, firm ride and all.
Kia Elantra: probably, since it's almost the same company now and price would probably be the same, or less.
Mazda Elantra: yes, if they could keep the price down.
Mitsubishi Elantra: sure, why not? It would probably have a great sound system.
Nissan Elantra: probably, I like my local dealer (bought two Sentras from them).
Saturn Elantra: no, because I expect the "no haggle" price would be too high, and I'm not fond of the wide panel gaps on Saturns (assuming they'd use thermopastic panels).
Subaru Elantra: Hmmm, an Elantra with full-time 4WD... that would be interesting.
Suzuki Elantra: probably, if they kept the price down; Suzukis are pretty reliable.
Toyota Elantra: I'd love to, except like the Honda Elantra it would probably cost $16,000.
VW Elantra: no way, because it would cost $18,000 and would have a 2-year warranty (but still a 10-year powertrain warranty). But the interior would be great.
Note that I did take some liberties here, in that I don't think you could just switch out manufacturers without something else changing-- just like all those "alternate time line" stories in Star Trek.
Also, they would not let me sit in any of the concept cars or cars up on the turntables. Those fools. ; )
I do not remember any cars that I did get to sit in having the odor that Kias, Hyundais, and Daewoos had. All of the vehicles of those makers from the most expensive to the least expensive had it. I went twice this year and the visits were separated by a couple of days. I will say that the odor was less the second time around.
This <i>is like a bad episode of Star Trek: Voyager! If I understand this, not only are the car makes changing, but the attributes of the manufacturers are changing also--like some sort of parallel universe, where Hyundai acts like Honda and Kia acts like Toyota and so forth. So we have the Honda Elantra and Toyota Sephia, with all the same qualities as the original cars and makers, but transferred to the new makers, and we have Kia Echo and Daewoo Civic and Hyundai Corolla (the names are getting pretty bizarre, too). But now Kia acts like Toyota, at least for quality, so if I were shopping for a high-quality small car I'd be looking for a Kia, and if I wanted best value with some long-term quality risk I'd shop for a Toyota or Honda. Also, since we won't have any knowledge of the "other" universe (that's always the case in these alternate universe story lines), where Honda makes Civics and Kia makes Sephias, we won't have any reason to change our buying habits, and we'll make the same decisions we did before, but in terms of the alternate reality. So that means I would still have bought a Honda Elantra, or Toyota Elantra, or whatever it is in the parallel universe.
Fortunately, I think if we discharge a phase-inverted anti-tachyon pulse through the main deflector array into Edmunds.com's primary web server, it can bring things back to normal.
Is that imaginitive enough? 8)
I decide to take that thought and go to the extreme. I feel that if you don't switch the attributes of one car maker with another, you cannot get a fair assessment of how much the name or country of origin means.
Personally, if the Echo were made by another company, but had the quality, probable reliability, resale value, and safety results(presuming lower than Toyota) of the rest of the company's products, I would not buy it.
I guess I do ask too much.
At least in the first few model years people would flock to "Toyota Nubira".
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Back to the Edmunds.com comparison test... First, I have to say that this was an absolutely unfair test by every measure! Most vehicles were equipped with 5-spd manual transmissions and virtually no extra options. The Protege ES was equipped with an automatic transmission and loaded to the gills!! Take away the automatic transmission and ES Premium Package, and you drop the Protege's price by a good $2,400!! That alone would immediately move the Protege's ranking up by two spots. Now, equipped with a 5-spd transmission combined with 200 pounds less weight (without the side airbags, power moonroof, and automatic transmission) and the Protege's acceleration drastically improves (along with its handling and braking), moving it up towards the top of the performance charts, rather than the center. The extra value and extra performance would have moved the Protege ES up to the top spot in the comparison test.
Or, we can look at it this way... Take the Elantra GLS, hook it up to an automatic transmission and add every option on it... it would fall in the ratings by at least three or four spaces. Otherwise, I just look at Car and Driver's review where all of the vehicles were actually equipped in a similar fashion.
As for the Kia board warzone... it has actually settled down quite a bit. Look through the first half and you'll see what I mean. Yes, the Protege board has its complaints too, but every board will. I think our most serious problem so far has been a CD player that refused to eject a disc and an AC system that froze up because it got too cold. Compared to what I have seen in other boards, these are pretty minor...
What would the Protege list for with that equipment? Well, you can't get a Protege with exactly that equipment. The closest thing to it is the MP3, the only Protege with 140 hp. That lists for $18,500. Compared to the Elantra, it has bigger wheels/tires and a better sound system. The GT has leather, ABS/traction control, side air bags, and moonroof. If we move down to the ES with the Premium Package, the difference is much less; list is $16,895. It still has bigger wheels/tires than the GT, but also has 10 less hp, no traction control, a 4 speaker stereo vs. 6, and no leather. Looks to me like the value equation is still tilted in favor of Hyundai when both cars are loaded up as equally as possible. And the '02 GT is a far superior car to the '00 GLS from the last comparo.
(In case you were wondering, the Pro5 optioned out like the GT and the ES is $18,395 list.)
What will the '03 MPS list for, any idea? A 200hp turbo engine doesn't sound too cheap. The '02 180hp Jetta GLS 1.8T is $20k.
BTW, who named the MPS, not yet in production, the best-handling front wheel drive car over the 7-year-old Integra design? Tony Swan in C&D called the Acura RSX "best in class". Does that mean better than the MPS?
On the value thing: if we decontent the Protege, taking off the Premium Package, then we need to de-option the Elantra too. Recall the '00 GLS in the comparo was pretty loaded--for an Elantra anyway. Compare base model to base model, which is what I think you are suggesting, and it's more than a $3200 difference at the '00 prices--still quite a spread. That and the 5-speed might be enough to push the Protege ES over the '00 GLS, but golly, the Pro ES should score better than a car that costs $3200 less.
Let us know what you think of the Elantra GT, especially the handling vs. the ES (be sure to drive one with the sport suspension). Reports on the leather have been mixed. I thought it felt good, but I'm not a leather fan, with 3 kids and living in the Frozen Tundra.
More to the point, what is the best-handling low-end car? For instance, how different do the Protege DX and LX handle from the ES, MP3, and MPS? How do the Protege DX and LX compare to entry cars like the Focus ZX3, Civic DX/HX, Elantra GT, Sentra GXE, and Echo?
Brings up a question: except for a bit larger tires, and alloys (which are a no-cost option on the LX 2.0 right now), what is the value now of buying an ES over the LX? (Especially if the suspensions are equal.)
The 2.0L engine will help performance on the DX/LX, but I don't see how they'll help handling. May even hurt it, if it's heavier than the 1.6L motor.
I agree with your order, except I've only driven the Focus SE, not the ZX3. Still, the SE's handling was pleasant. Civic and Corolla are nothing special in the handling department; maybe the tweaks on the 2002 Civic will help. Sentra SE would be up there I think, but is just over the bar for entry-level and is going away in 2002 in favor of the costlier SE-R. The Elantra GLS is slanted towards smoothness vs. crisp handling, but the GT compares pretty well I think to the Protege LX and Focus. The ride is more like the Focus than the LX, fairly smooth. Neon is not bad either, but I think a notch under Protege, Focus, and Elantra GT. I've not driven the Lanos, but have read positive reports about its handling in the mags and the Lanos forum. Lanos might be the bargain-basement handling champ, with its Porsche-tuned suspension.
The differences between the LX and ES are more than just tire and wheel size. Here are the items the ES has that the LX does not:
-16" 5-spoke alloy wheels
-195/50VR16 Dunlop SP Sport 5000 tires
-4-wheel disc brakes with larger front rotors than LX (DX/LX has rear drums)
-Thicker front and rear anti-roll bars
-Front fog lights
-Rear trunk mounted spoiler
-Dark charcoal interior
-White instrument gauges
-Amber interior lighting
-Sport bucket seats (heavier side bolstering)
-Argent treatment on headlights and grill accent (no chrome)
The big thing about the Protege's handling is the suspension geometry. No matter what you add to a car, the suspension geometry will limit your efforts. The Protege benefits from Mazda's long history of performance vehicles and racing. Most vehicles have identical front and rear roll centers. Mazda has learned that lowering the front roll center and raising the rear roll center increases handling by shifting the vehicle's weight towards the front wheels during hard cornering. The Protege's Twin-Trapezoidal Link (TTL) rear suspension was originally developed for the RX-7 and is now used on the Protege and 626. The TTL provides passive rear-wheel steering during hard cornering. The TTL also provides extra negative camber during hard corning for extra stability. The TTL and offset roll centers both contribute to counter understeer which is inherent of all front-wheel drive vehicles. All Protege's are also equipped with dual-action shock absorbers, meaning they not only damp compression, but also damp rebound.
And to the rest of the guys, come on, get back to posting. The high end guys have posted a lot more and our cars are just as good as theirs. ; )
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Thanks for rejoining us, Major. I was beginning to worry what happened to you, but then I saw a post from you on another board.
For some reason I've started to notice a LOT of '01 Elantra GLSes tooling around the Twin Cities lately. For months I'd see maybe one a month, now I see a few every day. Still have not seen a single Elantra GT on the road, but did see one in the MSP Hertz lot. My local dealer had only one the other day, so they've got to be out there somewhere.
I'm also seeing more Echos than I used to. Maybe the high gas prices are having their effect. Still see billions of Civics, Corollas, and many of those comely Sephias.
Then when people came back on board, there really wasn't anything for me to add so I just laid low.
But I am back. Posting helps me keep my sanity. What little I have left. ; )
Iluv, if you think that Kia and its parent Hyundai are the leaders in automotive design, you will love (note sarcasm) what I am about to type.
Hyundai has displayed the next generation Tiburon. They displayed it at the Frankfurt Auto Show and it bears a striking resemblance to an old style Toyota Celica. Some liken it to the Toyota Supra from the movie The Fast And The Furious.
Either way, Hyundai is evidently looking to Toyota of the past for its sports car design.
For a picture, check out AutoWeek.com.
My roommate does not know exactly which model her sister is looking at, but she believes it is the Rio, the Sephia, or the Spectra.
On a design level, I am hoping it is the Rio as I like it the best of the three.
On a quality level, I hope it is the Sephia because it has the best initial quality, as measured by J.D. Powers, of the three. But is that saying much?
On a reliability level, I wish she could have been approved by a Honda or Toyota dealership. ; )
FWIW, I am not impugning the education level of my roommate's sister. It is just that her credit history stinks.
By the way, when we bought our Hyundai Elantra GT we had pre-approved financing but our dealer offered to finance us as well. Got the two to compete and wound up saving almost a full percentage point (our credit rating was pretty solid, though -- we probably weren't indicative of Hyundai/Kia's "current target market" -- uh, oh; here come the flames). Most Hyundai owners I talk to tell similar stories. Perhaps your roommate's sister could investigate Hyundai?
Just trying to help....
Happy motoring.
If the only choices were between Hyundai and Kia, part of me is saying to tell her to go with Hyundai. The initial quality is demonstratively better. But with her coming from a Ford Tempo and the closest match in size would be the Elantra (I believe), part of me is screaming for her to stay away. I say this because of the poor showing by the Elantra in the IIHS test. I would be a little more reassured if Hyundai seemed to be worried about the problem.
Given her finances, I don't think that she could afford the payments on the Sonata.
I think the Accent might be a little small, but if she is looking at the Kia Rio then the Accent would not be too small.
One good(?) sign is that the Kia dealership has not gotten back with her. Perhaps there is still time to make sure she is getting a car she wants and not just whatever car she can afford.
I hope to talk to her by this weekend.
But, Mazda is still doing their 0.0% financing on the Protege sedans. And, they are being extremely open to the credit histories. If you can find a Protege DX or LX, the price will stay reasonably low and the 0.0% should keep the payments down. LX 2.0 and ES 2.0 are much more popular and demand a higher price and less discounts. The 2002 models all have the 2.0L engine, including the DX. However, I don't believe there is 0.0% financing on them.