Low End Sedans (under $16k)

mpgman · September 2001

Every time I pass the Enrite discount gas station on Route 9 North near Sayreville, I have to top the darn thing off. Gas today was $1.059! Whenever I top if off, the gauge needle stops around 7/8s. If I stop at the auto shut off, it eventually creeps up to full. Sometimes it actually rises as I use a gallon or two of fuel. I had it to the dealer once, and it worked perfectly for a while. I use the trip computer anyway. When I go back for the free 15,000 mile servicing that I got as part of my deal, I will ask to have it checked again. You need to bring it in with virtually no gas left in the tank. I have yet to see another GT on the road as well.

fangio2 · September 2001

I never pay attention to the flags-would not know an afgan flag anyway.It does kinda bother me tho.WHY?

backy · September 2001

I live in Minnesota and so Edmunds.com sticks a U.S. flag on my posts. According to his User Profile, Carleton lives in Kabul, so of course his posts get the Afganistan flag. Not a very safe place to be right now--are you OK out there, Carleton?

fangio2 · September 2001

hum-vee?

inexcess · September 2001

I dont think that cars even exist there...

majorthomecho · September 2001

I think his choice of flags is a joke as is his city of residence. Carleton used to fly the Israel flag.

And you will notice that the car he is shopping for is a Daewoo Leganza. Now for someone who talks up Toyota products, it would not make much sense for them to be searching for a Daewoo unless most of their profile (including that part) was a joke.

majorthomecho · September 2001

J.D. Powers does have a website geared toward the consumer and it is now up and running. I have known about it for sometime, but every time I tried to access, the site reported back as being down.

The site can be reached at http://www.jdpower.com.

Highlight and click on the word automotive to get to the area most appropriate for our purposes. ; )

What is coolest about this site is that you can pull up IQS info on multiple cars at the same time. And this IQS info is broken down into components.

Pretty handy comparison tool.

coolguyky7 · September 2001

I put the 2001 Echo against Sephia, Accent and Rio. ECHO beat both the Sephia and Rio in every category. It tied the Accent in performance and creature comforts. Not bad. Go ECHO Go! lol

majorthomecho · September 2001

I should point out that the top three categories are taken from the IQS and the bottom three categories are from the APPEAL survey.

fangio2 · September 2001

imformative as well as fun.Some things are out of whack though-the Sonata initial power train was a 2 or 3 rating,the intermediate was a 5(tops).Are Sonata's like burbon in that they get better with age?

majorthomecho · September 2001

I think the explanation is simple. The results are compared against the results of other cars in its segment. Evidently, the other makes developed more problems with the power train while the Sonata's problems stayed static. Thus the seeming increase in quality.

BTW, which year did you check out?

fangio2 · September 2001

the 2001 model.btw I really like the way the sight is set up for comparisons.

majorthomecho · September 2001

Fangio, I checked your claim and there are NO intermediate results for the 2001 Sonata. AND in no year for the Sonata do the intermediate mechanical reliability results rise to a five (out of five).

fangio2 · September 2001

mid term results for the 2000 Sonata.

majorthomecho · September 2001

I want to apologize. You are correct that the mid term results do show a dramatic increase for the 2000 Sonata. Or it could be that all the cars in that segment sink to the initial quality level of the Sonata. ; )

When I checked, I guess I must have skipped over the 2000 year and checked 2001 and then from 1999 backward.

But the Sonata is not a low end car so we should be discussing the results of the Accent and Elantra when it comes to Hyundai vehicles.

backy · September 2001

This is pretty cool--if incomplete. For example, no ratings available on the 2001 Protege. That's strange that both JD Power and Strategic Vision ignore the Protege in their survey results.

I did a comparo on the 2001 Elantra GLS, ECHO (they use all caps, is that the official spelling? Is it an acronym?), Civic, and Sentra. They are dead even in 3 of the 6 Initial Quality categories: performance, creature comforts, and style. On Mechanical Quality, none of the cars rank very high (very surprising), with the Elantra getting 2 dots to the other's 3. On Feature and Accessory Quality and Body and Interior Quality, the ECHO stands out, the Sentra in the middle, and--surprisingly to me--the Elantra and the Civic (the most expensive car on the list) bringing up the rear with 2 dots. It's also surprising to me that the Sentra did not fare well in Feature and Accessory Quality, because if the Sentra has anything I thought it has a nicely-appointed interior. It's also surprising the Civic ranked so low. Maybe the fact that the Elantra and Civic are the two new models in the group, with teething problems, played against them. It proves again that the Civic is way overpriced for what you get, since you can get a vehicle with equal or better quality (according to JD Powers) for thousands less.

majorthomecho · September 2001

The explanation must be that not enough Protege owners returned their surveys for the car to be included in the results.

majorthomecho · September 2001

Edmunds spells Echo the same way as J.D. Powers. Not sure why and no it is not an acronym. At least not that I know of.

backy · October 2001

As reported by USA Today today on p. B1, Strategic Vision has ranked Lexus #1 and Hyundai #2 for "total value", taking into account what customers expect long-term in reliability and resale value. See http://www.usatoday.com/money/mear.htm for the story (look fast, it is a daily newspaper after all). Who would have thought we'd ever see "Hyundai" in the same sentence with "Lexus", "long-term reliability", and "resale value"?

You can also find details at the Strategic Vision site,
http://www.vision-inc.com/01_tvi_release.html
Note that this press release says that Kia is "most improved" in this year's survey.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2001

that Kia was already there before this survey was born. Nice results for Hyundai here. These two South Korean carmakers are doing a bang-up job making cars for the world's masses. My 2001 Sportage 4x4 in pepper red is a grand specimen of the highest degree. Cute as a bug yet I feel that I could spin her right into the rough and tangle with the wildlife for insta-survival! Watch Hyundai/Kia's constant spike upwards dudes! The momentum's too big to stop with a bunch of Toyota-Honda-Mazda-Subaru owner/dealer lies!

majorthomecho · October 2001

The saying, "you can fool some of the people" comes to mind. The Kia corollary should be that you can fool Iluv all the time (if your name is Kia).

And Iluv, remember, this is the low end cars (sedans) board.

Further discussion about your new ride would be off topic. ; )

I am curious as to why you pulled the trigger on the deal though. Perhaps you can get the host to open the Kia Sportage topic back up.

majorthomecho · October 2001

I did not click on the link quick enough to be taken to the story directly. However, you can still access the USA today story.

Click on the link and then look to the left. You will see the word Auto. Click on that and on the page that comes up will be a number of stories. Look for the story with Aztek and Hyundai in the description. Click on the little blue letters and there is the story.

People need to understand that these surveys have less to do with actual quality of a car and more with how people EXPECT their cars to be.

For actual quality, we will have to wait for J.D. Powers survey of initial quality.

majorthomecho · October 2001

Well, my roommate's sister did end up buying the Rio and I got to see her and the car a few days ago. Just thought I would share some of the things we talked about.

The number one reason she bought the Rio was the price. She had a very tight budget and she thought the Rio was the only one that would fit into that budget. Comparing MSRPs, the Accent would have actually been cheaper by about $50, but I don't know if it would have been cheaper bottom line. She chose the dealership she did because of a screamer ad, but fortunately, the dealership lived up to the ad.

She wanted to wait and get something better, but her former car was becoming unreliable. That fact and the screamer ad led her behind the wheel of a Rio. If the economic times had been better, she might have gone ahead and gotten something with a higher monthly payment, but better quality.

I had to be the bearer of bad tidings and I wish I had kept my mouth shut now. She told me that after having the Rio for a few years, she hoped to trade it in and get what she really wanted, but she did not specify what that was. I had to tell her that the Rio did not have great resale value. She looked so hurt that I don't think the dealer told her that little fact.

When I saw her, she had the car for a week and thankfully the Kia "smell" had vanished. The dizzying design on the seats were enough to make me ill though.

I was not impressed with the fit, finish or quality of the Rio, but she was happy given the price she paid.

As for the warranties, given her driving, the basic one will last her a little more than two years and the power train will last slightly less than five.

In one week, she had put 600 miles on the car.

If you absolutely, positively have to have the cheapest set of new wheels, buy a Rio. Just don't expect [good] quality.

majorthomecho · October 2001

Does anyone know why Kia dumped the Sephia name and body style in favor of the Spectra name and a new body style? The sales figures I have seen indicate that the Sephia was vastly more popular than the Spectra.

coolguyky7 · October 2001

Sounds like a dumb move by Kia. That would be like switching the names of ECHO and Corolla. No offense Major, I love the ECHO...but you'd have to really think that Corolla's sales would slip if it was renamed ECHO.

backy · October 2001

I posted on this awhile back, but it's a pain to search through these boards so here's the story on why Kia dumped the Sephia name: people in the U.S. had trouble pronouncing it. To quote from Kia's press release on the name change (available at http://www.kia.com/090501.shtml):

When Kia made its U.S. launch in 1994 with a single model, the company simply carried over the Sephia name for the compact sedan, a name that had been created for, and used in, the Korean market.

"We weren't able to do any substantial market research concerning the vehicle name when we launched," said [B.M. Ahn, president and CEO of Kia Motors America]. "So we went with Sephia but always knew that at some point it would change, especially because it was so often mispronounced."

As to why they changed the body style (not the same as the Spectra, actually a new body but on the Spectra platform), I personally think the new style is a big improvement over the old one. Cars are typically reskinned every few years, and the Sephia was due. Note that although Kia's sales increased 25% in September from a year ago, the Sephia was the only Kia car model to lose sales compared to last year. So a fresh design was called for.

backy · October 2001

So, Major, am I to understand that you believe the Strategic Vision awards have to do with the quality of the vehicle only when they apply to the ECHO, as you noted in #679 when you explained how Smart Money had based its award to the ECHO partly on Strategic Vision's TQI, but for every other award they hand out (like the recent Total Quality award to Lexus and #2 finisher Hyundai), it's not about quality, but expectations of quality?

carleton1 · October 2001

For us, the ECHO was tied with the PT Cruiser for being the best sedan for comfort, space, visibility, ease of entry and exit, etc.
We were very pleasantly surprised when we drove an ECHO (without the salesman)with the nice quiet, smooth ride, the performance with A/C on, and everything about the ECHO except the rather spartan interior. All the ECHO needs is an LE model.
The PT Cruiser costs considerably more, gets about half the gas mileage, etc.
No other sedan was comfortable for us to sit in so we have not driven them. We will continue to drive a minivan until Toyota makes an ECHO LE.

lgoldin · October 2001

Just to please major (and myself :-) ). Please look at

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/011004-1.htm

majorthomecho · October 2001

I see no conflict between my posts about Strategic Vision.

Kindly show me where, in my earlier post #679, I [explicitly] endorsed SV's survey. I don't even see where I implicitly endorsed it. I merely pointed out what criteria Smart Money used in determining their finalists.

Personally, in terms of surveys about actual quality, I judge JD Powers to be better than Strategic Visions or AutoPacific.

coolguyky7 · October 2001

I've already read that article. Corolla has established itself. Perhaps if the Sephia stayed on the market longer and became a better car it could establish itself too.

backy · October 2001

To what article are you referring?

backy · October 2001

Sorry for my assumption that you approved of the methodology used by Smart Money to come up with the ECHO as one of its winners. I would be interested to know what your opinion on this award is, since you drive an awardee. From recent posts you don't seem to like the Strategic Vision TQI (I'm not too keen on it either), and that was a component of the Smart Money ratings.

majorthomecho · October 2001

Any disagreement of methodology of Strategic Vision does not translate to a disagreement with the conclusions of Smart Money.

I happen to agree with Smart Money that the Echo is a very good car. And given their (Smart Money's) criteria for selecting the winner, I agree with that too even though the winner was not the Echo.

I don't know why Smart Money used SV's survey as a criteria, but at least they (Smart Money) told us what criteria they used.

Detroit News released a similar list and I challenge anyone to figure out the exact criteria they used to pick their final list.

backy · October 2001

>> Any disagreement of methodology of Strategic Vision does not translate to a disagreement with the conclusions of Smart Money. <<

There's a saying in the computer industry: garbage in, garbage out.

majorthomecho · October 2001

In other words, just because I am less than thrilled with how Strategic Visions does something does not mean I fault the conclusions of Smart Money. I agree with Smart Money that the Toyota Echo is one of the best values under $18,000.

coolguyky7 · October 2001

the interior of the ECHO compared to all the other cars in its class. It's so roomy and not cramped up like a Sephia's or a Cavalier's etc etc etc.

iluvmysephia1 · October 2001

one of those people who fuzzies up Internet knowledge. You know how people say you can't believe everything you read on the Internet? Don't believe what coolguy says about Sephia's interior room. It actually has more than all of the competitors. The Sephia remains a popular choice(yes, even if the Sephia's changing to Spectra). The reasons are: Great looks. Reliable performance. Great Long-Haul warranty.

coolguyky7 · October 2001

that the ECHO has much more headroom and a more open feel than the Sephia because it doesn't have the armrest console connecting to the dash. Sephia's control panel has its buttons mushed together all close. I like how ECHO's are spread out. But that is just opinion.

And on to Kia's advertising. Why do they constantly target Toyota? And on their website, the Corolla is used in almost every comparison of why Sephia is "supposedly" better. Is that the only way Kia can win customers? I found discrepancies between Kia's comparisons and Toyota's comparisons. The Toyota comparison gives Corolla 14 cu feet of trunk space, the Sephia only 10. But Kia's site gives Sephia 10.4 and Corolla's only 12.1 cu feet. Both cars have 125 hp but Corolla's runs at 5800 rpm rather than Sephia's 6000 rpm. Corolla has more torque. 125 lb/foot at 4000 rpm vs 108 lb/foot at 4800 rpm. And what's with the Sephia's mileage. Toyota sure is using a more efficient engine than Kia is. Kia better hold off on gas/electric hybrids until they can get a conventional engine efficient.

Oh, and by the way, the cute little heading the Sephia page has is so nice. "More fun than a Corolla." Well if you can't believe a statement like that then what can you believe? Their comparison also says one can't get a Corolla LE with wood trim interior and a color keyed rear spoiler. Yes, one can. Kia should get things straightened out.

backy · October 2001

Edmunds.com rates Corolla at 12.1 cubic feet for trunk space, also. Maybe Toyota uses a different way to measure trunk space than Kia and Edmunds.com.

Another way to view Kia's comparison of Sephia vs. Corolla is as a compliment to the Corolla. It is common practice for a company to compare its products against those it views as its strongest competition. So by making direct comparisons between the Sephia and Corolla, Kia is acknowledging that Corolla is the car it has to beat. I always like it when I see ads from competitors of my company directly attacking my company's products. I especially like it when the ads are inaccurate or misleading (which happens quite often), because when I point out the errors to customers, those competitors lose credibility.

coolguyky7 · October 2001

Kia commercials definitely put a smile on my face. Although, those recent Lexus and Toyota commercials put a smile on my face too, but a different one. I really liked that LS430 commercial that came out when the car debuted. "Apple Brown Betty" or whatever.

aniryu · October 2001

I love those new Camry and ES 300 commercials! They just are so classy!

Kia's new motto: The Persuit of Toyota

Toyota's new motto: The Persuit of being better than Kia so they can stop comparing us

Lexus' new motto: The persuit of Mercedez Benze

coolguyky7 · October 2001

Lexus' slogan is "The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection." I love that slogan. Aniryu, you're right, those commercials are classy. I think Lexus has surpassed Mercedes Benz though. The Lexus LS430 and SC430 are absolutely fantastic. They are no lesser than any MB yet they have a much better price! Go figure!

carleton1 · October 2001

Lexus is a cheap pretender to Mercedes in the same manner as Kia and Hyundai are to Toyota.
In both instances, the pretender offers same features for less money so they are probably a better bargain for those with limited funds to spend.

backy · October 2001

Could somebody please tell me which Lexus and Mercedes Benz cars list for under $15,000?

Carleton, with today's attacks near Kabul I hope you are in a safe location.

majorthomecho · October 2001

Backy, in case you missed my previous post, I am sure that Carleton does not live in Afghanistan. You are just wearing out your fingers typing such sentiments.

majorthomecho · October 2001

Seriously, even though you no longer own a low end sedan, I would like to know why you chose an SUV as your current vehicle as opposed to getting a Kia Spectra.

What made you choose an SUV over a sedan?

backy · October 2001

According to Carelton's User Profile, he lives in Kabul. I will assume the info he supplied during the Edmunds.com registration process is accurate unless there is evidence to the contrary.

coolguyky7 · October 2001

Why does Lexus always beat Mercedes in quality then? If Chrysler cars will have any impact on Mercedes, then Mercedes is screwed. It's downhill for MB if they let Chrylser get to do too much work for them. Chrysler cars are pretty cheap feeling.

aniryu · October 2001

"Lexus is a cheap pretender to Mercedes in the same manner as Kia and Hyundai are to Toyota. In both instances, the pretender offers same features for less money so they are probably a better bargain for those with limited funds to spend."

Don't talk nonsense. Lexus' are great cars, and great car + great price = happy owners. When I was shopping for my RX 300, I test drove all the SUVs' in it's class, and I chose the RX 300. HA!

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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